Suikoden II

2013-03-19 04:24:31 pm

All the things

The softlock is still up in the air, but there are two main possibilities:

-Both counters triggered the jizo, but since it was mid-attack the animation only triggered on the second, but the game was expecting the second animation but it never came. Confusing, but maybe?
-The last Jizo to break is the one that Adlai takes from me, which could mess up some of the flags and make weird things happen.

The latter possibility is easy to check, I just haven't yet. For the battle overall I am not concerned about double counters in general, and I'll just switch to the safer strat of having Nanami behind Riou. It's a bit slower since you can't guarantee a Violence trigger, but it's effective. In an absolute worst-case scenario I can also switch to using Family Attack to guarantee hits at the cost of one turn.

As for Eilie, I considered her but the issue is: where do I get those deaths? The enemies on the way to Kindness Early are your best bet, but a lot of those battles are not great and pose some real danger if they drag out. Nanami/Kinnison has the advantage that you need the deaths regardless, so why not make use of them? At the Border Nanami is actually going to have at least 2 deaths since you need to weaken her on the way, and since she's already in that condition it's easy to stack a few more on her. Kinnison has a guaranteed death on Double Head to start, and you can reinforce it a bit by putting him in the party when you fight Luca. For Eilie, you would have to walk around extra with the sole purpose of getting some more deaths on her, which is not negligible. Experience may also be an issue too if Eilie is not robust enough to last against 2 heavy attacks from Pest Rat. It just feels like you end up doing a lot more for not a lot of gain.

The 6:30 is also a consideration. Imagine passing the :30 mark right after Seed & Culgan and going into the Beast Rune with no damage. At this point we can't say for sure that we'll be able to lower it to that point.

The softlock is still up in the air, but there are two main possibilities:

-Both counters triggered the jizo, but since it was mid-attack the animation only triggered on the second, but the game was expecting the second animation but it never came. Confusing, but maybe?
-The last Jizo to break is the one that Adlai takes from me, which could mess up some of the flags and make weird things happen.

The latter possibility is easy to check, I just haven't yet. For the battle overall I am not concerned about double counters in general, and I'll just switch to the safer strat of having Nanami behind Riou. It's a bit slower since you can't guarantee a Violence trigger, but it's effective. In an absolute worst-case scenario I can also switch to using Family Attack to guarantee hits at the cost of one turn.

As for Eilie, I considered her but the issue is: where do I get those deaths? The enemies on the way to Kindness Early are your best bet, but a lot of those battles are not great and pose some real danger if they drag out. Nanami/Kinnison has the advantage that you need the deaths regardless, so why not make use of them? At the Border Nanami is actually going to have at least 2 deaths since you need to weaken her on the way, and since she's already in that condition it's easy to stack a few more on her. Kinnison has a guaranteed death on Double Head to start, and you can reinforce it a bit by putting him in the party when you fight Luca. For Eilie, you would have to walk around extra with the sole purpose of getting some more deaths on her, which is not negligible. Experience may also be an issue too if Eilie is not robust enough to last against 2 heavy attacks from Pest Rat. It just feels like you end up doing a lot more for not a lot of gain.

The 6:30 is also a consideration. Imagine passing the :30 mark right after Seed & Culgan and going into the Beast Rune with no damage. At this point we can't say for sure that we'll be able to lower it to that point.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-03-20 03:08:09 pm

2013-03-20 12:45:41 pm

North Sparrow death farming is a dud. It would have been easy and fast, but there is one big bald problem: Bolgan. He keeps taking hits for Eilie. Else it would have been very easy to get the needed deaths after killing her off against Mist Monster. I'll try again later by either moving Bolgan further from her in formation (probably doesn't have an effect though) or going with a 3 turn Mist Monster fight and killing off Bolgan as well.

Omnigamer

2013-03-20 10:28:28 pm

All the things

Small note, but doing a mostly optimized "Escape Route" in Tinto is only 20-30 seconds slower than the normal route. I expected more than that. Figured it was worth reporting, at least.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-03-21 01:40:49 pm

Vaslof: 2013-03-21 01:40:34 pm

Vaslof: 2013-03-21 01:39:31 pm

2013-03-21 01:39:08 pm

Couple of early game changes for me:

- Eilie death farming strat is consistent, you kill Mist Monster in 3 turns always (saves a flaming arrow for the Highland group and a fire wall for double head)
- You also get more levels on Riou (Omni fights extra monsters on the way back to get these levels, if that is needed then this should SAVE time)
- Put bird nest up while in town to talk to the innkeeper. It's as fast as doing it later, but more consistent because you will always hit the minimum time limit to get them to appear.
- Any good fights in the forest should get a level or two extra for Riou and Jowy, making the Muse trip safer.

Omnigamer

2013-03-21 02:44:50 pm

All the things

I thought that you can't enter the forest at that time unless you take up Millie's quest? IIRC there's a guard there until you have to go and get Tsai.

Forest fighting can be unreliable; with Snailsx3 at level 5 you can go up to level 7, but you'll take 3 turns to beat them or more. The Spiders are a little safer but will still take at least 2 turns, and are only worth it for a group of 5, which would also get you up to level 7. Boars take way too long to kill. I can warm up to the idea of using that area to gain additional levels if needed, but it seems a bit less safe. I'll give it a few tries.

I don't see how getting her killed off against Mist Monster consistently stops the "Bolgan will protect" issue? I'm still not on board with the idea that you need to do any additional death farming beyond the required deaths as part of the route. Not having to switch over is a plus, but the ranged aspect is only useful against Luca, and even then you trade a lot of TECH, SPD, and LCK for it so you'll miss more often anyway.

I thought that you can't enter the forest at that time unless you take up Millie's quest? IIRC there's a guard there until you have to go and get Tsai.

Forest fighting can be unreliable; with Snailsx3 at level 5 you can go up to level 7, but you'll take 3 turns to beat them or more. The Spiders are a little safer but will still take at least 2 turns, and are only worth it for a group of 5, which would also get you up to level 7. Boars take way too long to kill. I can warm up to the idea of using that area to gain additional levels if needed, but it seems a bit less safe. I'll give it a few tries.

I don't see how getting her killed off against Mist Monster consistently stops the "Bolgan will protect" issue?  I'm still not on board with the idea that you need to do any additional death farming beyond the required deaths as part of the route. Not having to switch over is a plus, but the ranged aspect is only useful against Luca, and even then you trade a lot of TECH, SPD, and LCK for it so you'll miss more often anyway.

Vaslof

2013-03-21 02:54:35 pm

No guard.

I killed off both Eilie and Bolgan, so they are both 1 HP after Mist Monster. That solves the protect issue.

I agree Nanami is still top choice for now. But I'll be doing more testing with Eilie.

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2013-03-21 11:16:57 pm

Omnigamer: 2013-03-21 08:52:12 pm

2013-03-21 08:49:36 pm

All the things

Revising things a bit for Kinnison: in a (fairly poor) practice run of Luca -> Tinto, I am back at the Castle after Neclord at exactly 5:30. With a full party you can opt to have Sheena take Kinnison's spot and remove him from the party for the following events. This means that you can still do the Kindness swap before/during Tinto and not increase the Kindness points after. It also means getting one less death on Nanami earlier. Although, this is in a run with exceptionally good splits (since it's based on my practice runs) so it's tough to say how realistic that sort of timing is. Probably something good to aim for. If you bring him along for Luca battle for 1 death and let him gain levels off the following 2 groups and the group in Muse, he should be level 40 at the end which will unlock his rune slot.

EDIT: Another revision related to Kinnison: it takes exactly 5 game minutes for him to appear. If you instead choose to level from 5 to 7 in the forest, you can use up a good chunk of that time on battles on the way to Tsai. In my experience, 2 battles with spiders will get you pretty close to the limit after the remaining scenes and average run luck. Note that due to the movie, the entirety of the burning scenes take about 1:45 in real-time but slightly less than 1:30 game time. If you level this way, you end up pretty safe for the duel with Flik and it's probably a bit more efficient than doing it in the Pass. Note that you can also eat up some of the time with menu preparation for Flik and also the walk to that area. If he's not there yet but you're close, you can just enter the screen above and come back and he should be there. Basically just watch the timer and it should work pretty well.

Revising things a bit for Kinnison: in a (fairly poor) practice run of Luca -> Tinto, I am back at the Castle after Neclord at exactly 5:30. With a full party you can opt to have Sheena take Kinnison's spot and remove him from the party for the following events. This means that you can still do the Kindness swap before/during Tinto and not increase the Kindness points after. It also means getting one less death on Nanami earlier. Although, this is in a run with exceptionally good splits (since it's based on my practice runs) so it's tough to say how realistic that sort of timing is. Probably something good to aim for. If you bring him along for Luca battle for 1 death and let him gain levels off the following 2 groups and the group in Muse, he should be level 40 at the end which will unlock his rune slot.

EDIT: Another revision related to Kinnison: it takes exactly 5 game minutes for him to appear. If you instead choose to level from 5 to 7 in the forest, you can use up a good chunk of that time on battles on the way to Tsai. In my experience, 2 battles with spiders will get you pretty close to the limit after the remaining scenes and average run luck. Note that due to the movie, the entirety of the burning scenes take about 1:45 in real-time but slightly less than 1:30 game time. If you level this way, you end up pretty safe for the duel with Flik and it's probably a bit more efficient than doing it in the Pass. Note that you can also eat up some of the time with menu preparation for Flik and also the walk to that area. If he's not there yet but you're close, you can just enter the screen above and come back and he should be there. Basically just watch the timer and it should work pretty well.

Vaslof

2013-03-21 11:32:27 pm

Or just put the nest up earlier so you don't have to waste any time? Wink

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2013-03-22 12:00:07 am

Omnigamer: 2013-03-21 11:55:18 pm

2013-03-21 11:53:52 pm

All the things

It wastes more time to go out of the way then to put it up. Did not mention, but you can go to the innkeeper in Toto as well, so Ryube isn't even a necessary stop. It's also not wasting time to battle there if you need the levels anyway.

EDIT: Also had a brief glint of hope when I learned of the Earth Armor that prevents statuses, only to be dashed by the fact that it's in the most inconvenient place in the game. I'm experimenting with other strategies against Beast Rune, but at this point the strategy is just to pray you don't get smacked by statuses. I can take out the Left Leg in one turn, but then everything else is still active and you don't have any way to immediately attack the Heads. Blah.

Vaslof

2013-03-22 03:30:58 am

Old way:
1. Put nest up while going to Tsai.
2. After Luca scene: Run from Ruybe to the nest spot, pick up Kinnison/Shiro and run back.

New way:
1. Run from Ruybe to the nest spot, put the nest up, and run back.
2. Pick up Kinnison/Shiro while going to Tsai.

If Toto innkeeper saves time, then maybe go with the old way. I'm just concerned about wasting too much time in the forest. As you said it's not waste if you need the levels, but on my test runs I've managed to get the levels and still have to wait extra for them to appear.

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2013-03-22 07:29:22 am

2013-03-22 07:19:16 am

All the things

The "new way" you have is equivalent to the current method of getting them after the fort burns down. In either case it requires going to Ryube an extra time, all the way through town and into the forest. Toto innkeeper is equivalent to Ryube innkeeper in terms of transitions, but you save on the horizontal distance you would have needed to go to Ryube.

From my testing, so long as you take care of the extra things such as getting the chests and equipping Riou with best available armors, you should end up there right at the necessary time. If you do end up having to wait, it shouldn't be more than your positioning saves over the other methods.

EDIT: Better yet, just watch your timer. If you somehow end up a minute or more ahead of when they appear after setting up your equipment etc, then just go back to the Fort as usual and pick them up after. If you're at 30 seconds or less, I'm positive that it's better to go over to where they are and wait out the remaining 5-10 seconds than having to revisit it afterwards.

The "new way" you have is equivalent to the current method of getting them after the fort burns down. In either case it requires going to Ryube an extra time, all the way through town and into the forest. Toto innkeeper is equivalent to Ryube innkeeper in terms of transitions, but you save on the horizontal distance you would have needed to go to Ryube.

From my testing, so long as you take care of the extra things such as getting the chests and equipping Riou with best available armors, you should end up there right at the necessary time. If you do end up having to wait, it shouldn't be more than your positioning saves over the other methods.

EDIT: Better yet, just watch your timer. If you somehow end up a minute or more ahead of when they appear after setting up your equipment etc, then just go back to the Fort as usual and pick them up after. If you're at 30 seconds or less, I'm positive that it's better to go over to where they are and wait out the remaining 5-10 seconds than having to revisit it afterwards.

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2013-03-24 11:01:07 am

Omnigamer: 2013-03-24 09:32:02 am

2013-03-24 01:07:17 am

All the things

A pretty big convenience that I'm not sure how I missed earlier: Greenhill has both a runemaster and a blacksmith, so the Bearer switchover is trivial to perform just after Bone Dragon. You should only have to set up Viki with Lightning at that point as well if the rest is planned out well. As a rule of thumb, you wind up about 1 minute ahead in real-time over the game time for every hour played. Good to know if you hit precise timing cues, such as the x:30 for Kindness points. I am also considering going back to Sheena if it's unreliable to remove Kinnison from the party in time after Double Head. Benefits for Sheena: third rune slot, can equip Earth Shield. Negatives: lower overall stats, short range. Stats for L'Ren should not matter as much, but the Earth Shield is a big step in terms of consistency. I have not tested Violence strats with Double Strike yet, but I imagine it should be okay. I'm just worried about things that do too much damage and end up triggering Jizos instead of Violence.

EDIT: Just looked into one other thing: Getting Templton vs not. It takes about 1:30 to pick him up. The alternative is to load up Flik with Shu or just hope for good luck on Tsai and attempt to take out the guard at the city gate. With Shu, you have slightly better than a 50% chance of damaging the enemy; with Tsai you have about 42%. Each turn takes about 20 seconds, and you can hit the enemy starting on Turn 3. If you kill him in 3 turns, you win with only an extra minute. 4 turns is about even with going to fetch Templton. Templton is certainly more consistent, but in either case the potential savings are not enormous. A perfect L'Ren Battle without Templton is about 45 sec faster, but relies on luck and could easily be slower. I'm going to try to go without Templton in my next run just to see what kind of luck it spits out, and save on one army rearrangement.

EDIT2: Exo found the run comments for the 6:46 run. http://maaaaakunn2525dq.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-58.html . Turbo used etc, but that's the only thing I can think of for why he gains so much time over our route. We gain time back in L'Ren, but that's about it. I'll analyze it further tonight.

A pretty big convenience that I'm not sure how I missed earlier: Greenhill has both a runemaster and a blacksmith, so the Bearer switchover is trivial to perform just after Bone Dragon. You should only have to set up Viki with Lightning at that point as well if the rest is planned out well. As a rule of thumb, you wind up about 1 minute ahead in real-time over the game time for every hour played. Good to know if you hit precise timing cues, such as the x:30 for Kindness points. I am also considering going back to Sheena if it's unreliable to remove Kinnison from the party in time after Double Head. Benefits for Sheena: third rune slot, can equip Earth Shield. Negatives: lower overall stats, short range. Stats for L'Ren should not matter as much, but the Earth Shield is a big step in terms of consistency. I have not tested Violence strats with Double Strike yet, but I imagine it should be okay. I'm just worried about things that do too much damage and end up triggering Jizos instead of Violence.

EDIT: Just looked into one other thing: Getting Templton vs not. It takes about 1:30 to pick him up. The alternative is to load up Flik with Shu or just hope for good luck on Tsai and attempt to take out the guard at the city gate. With Shu, you have slightly better than a 50% chance of damaging the enemy; with Tsai you have about 42%. Each turn takes about 20 seconds, and you can hit the enemy starting on Turn 3. If you kill him in 3 turns, you win with only an extra minute. 4 turns is about even with going to fetch Templton. Templton is certainly more consistent, but in either case the potential savings are not enormous. A perfect L'Ren Battle without Templton is about 45 sec faster, but relies on luck and could easily be slower. I'm going to try to go without Templton in my next run just to see what kind of luck it spits out, and save on one army rearrangement.

EDIT2: Exo found the run comments for the 6:46 run. http://maaaaakunn2525dq.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-58.html . Turbo used etc, but that's the only thing I can think of for why he gains so much time over our route. We gain time back in L'Ren, but that's about it. I'll analyze it further tonight.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-03-24 11:25:38 am

Vaslof: 2013-03-24 11:24:43 am

2013-03-24 11:24:16 am

I'm curious, why do your notes say that Armadillos are not good to fight when you are trying to get Riou low (and an extra death(s) for Nanami)? I'm asking because I happened to get an Armadillo group, which I used to get to low HP, but then realized that I might as well finish them off with Riou when he was last man standing. He gets to high 40's, and then Nanami later on gets to mid 30's from the Highlanders. Unless there's something I'm missing, this would be the way to go if you happen to get an armadillo encounter (and if not, then proceed as planned). This would mean you don't need to level up Nanami on the way, and it's of course faster since you need to fight the border battle anyways to get your guys low. Only possible problem is the reason why you prefer not fighting Armadillos there..

Omnigamer

2013-03-24 11:29:37 am

All the things

I was specifically referring to the fact that physical attacks will do 7-10 damage against them so you get very little return from Fire Lizard. The other thing is that you do still need Riou to be the last man standing; my strategy instead has all the armor on Jowy and he is a much higher level following Double Head so he's not easy to kill off in a timely manner, even with unequipping everything.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-03-24 11:51:51 am

2013-03-24 11:51:13 am

Right. My Jowy was actually lower level because he died in Double Head. Would not be hard to get him killed there, it's really Shiro who finishes up Double Head. Only change would be to keep someone like Gengen alive for Medicine, depending on how much damage you've done when your guys start falling. I think I prefer keeping it simple though, so nevermind. Speaking of the ruins, I think any megawatt battle would be good for leveling up, because Nanami tends to die in those and gets an extra death. Failed run attempts might add more since she'd be at 1 HP.

There's a link to his earlier run too: http://maaaaakunn2525dq.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-22.html
Probably worth a look.

Omnigamer

2013-03-26 12:13:23 pm

Just making a quick list of all of the major luck-based things throughout the game:
-Escaping up until power levelling
-Tai Ho
-Refugees
-Kiba Battle
-Luca Battle

Some things I need to investigate trimming/changing the route with:
-Blue Gate at Cave of Wind. Does Luc really need it?
-Picking up Fire rune in White Deer Inn and giving it to Riou. Provides some extra AoE might for when Luc runs out of MP. May be helpful on several bosses, and guarantees that even if "Level 13" happens, I can account for it and still butcher some slugs.
-Kinnison or Sheena. Sheena +Earth Shield + Double-strike is enticing for Beast Rune, but I still need to try it several more times to see what kind of dangers it carries. Kinnison has an extra death early, but you need to get to Muse quick enough to take advantage of it.
-Other opportunities to buy fire/water runes and attach them to people. The runemaster trips I have in the route now are fairly optimized, but knocking out the extra visit to the Two River runemaster would be nice.
-The full implications of skipping Stallion early. The extra time spent recruiting people is about 1:30, time spent to get to him is also on the order of 1:30. It's convenient to have him earlier so you can pop Spark on him, but Spark isn't really needed until L'Ren. I'd believe that he saves about 1:30 in walking distance, and then a mild consistency buff from having guaranteed escapes. I'm still pretty sure I'm going to not get him though.

Just making a quick list of all of the major luck-based things throughout the game:
-Escaping up until power levelling
-Tai Ho
-Refugees
-Kiba Battle
-Luca Battle

Some things I need to investigate trimming/changing the route with:
-Blue Gate at Cave of Wind. Does Luc really need it?
-Picking up Fire rune in White Deer Inn and giving it to Riou. Provides some extra AoE might for when Luc runs out of MP. May be helpful on several bosses, and guarantees that even if "Level 13" happens, I can account for it and still butcher some slugs.
-Kinnison or Sheena. Sheena +Earth Shield + Double-strike is enticing for Beast Rune, but I still need to try it several more times to see what kind of dangers it carries. Kinnison has an extra death early, but you need to get to Muse quick enough to take advantage of it.
-Other opportunities to buy fire/water runes and attach them to people. The runemaster trips I have in the route now are fairly optimized, but knocking out the extra visit to the Two River runemaster would be nice.
-The full implications of skipping Stallion early. The extra time spent recruiting people is about 1:30, time spent to get to him is also on the order of 1:30. It's convenient to have him earlier so you can pop Spark on him, but Spark isn't really needed until L'Ren. I'd believe that he saves about 1:30 in walking distance, and then a mild consistency buff from having guaranteed escapes. I'm still pretty sure I'm going to not get him though.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-03-26 01:59:57 pm

2013-03-26 01:59:00 pm

Blue Gate is the only full AoE lvl2 spell (excluding higher form or unattainable runes). Will you run out of AoE clears without it?
Definitely pick up Fire for Riou, then his lvl3 and lvl4 spells can be used to clear groups, and Explosion is worth the animation length against Abomination, maybe others too.
Only problem is cash for Tai Ho's chinchirorin. You might need to pick up Magic Drain in Sindar ruins to sell it for 15k, but it's out of the way.
That is, unless you get enough cash from leveling Nanami on the way to pick up Kindness rune.

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2013-03-26 02:22:30 pm

2013-03-26 02:21:47 pm

All the things

You gain about 5k from levelling Nanami during Kindness Early, so it puts you even with where you'd be in the old route. The slugs are resistant to Fire, so only the L4 can be expected to kill them off, which means you only get one charge of it. From my experience even one battle is enough; during my testing I went through with what I considered "worst-case scenario" conditions.

Also, I'm going to hate myself for doing this later, but here's a list of notable characters that are difficult/time-consuming to recruit:

-Tai ho & Yam Koo: Dice game.
-Tetsu: Fried Tacos to become Toasty.
-Shilo: Dice Game.
-Hix & Tengaar: lots o' crap.
-Futch & Humphrey: do quest.
-Ayda & Feather: chain of events
-Sigfried/Abizboah?
-Lebrante: need Celadon Urn
-Simone: need Rose Brooch
-Gordon: freaking trading
-Annallee & Pico & Albert: Silent singing
-Gantetsu: Need a lot of STR. Use an animal?
-Pasmerga: annoying to get to.
-Mazus: Annoying to get to.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-03-26 04:59:50 pm

2013-03-26 04:56:52 pm

New leveling tricks:

- Riou gets lvl9 when he's last man standing against Mist Monster. Put him behind Bolgan. Usually finish up T5 with flaming arrows. Backup fire wall if you need more damage, shouldn't be needed though. If woman form triggers, then might need some medicine to keep Riou healthy. Got wiped once when testing. Skips leveling, Muse trip is safe, Let Go on world map.
- Fight Salamanders in Sindar Ruins, intent is to have Jowy as the last man standing. Give him chain mail, put behind Riou. No risk against 4 salamanders (keep medicine on Riou and Jowy though. Mainly because Jowy likes to protect Riou when he's critical, but the flame attack can't be protected against). More than 4 Salamanders might be risky. Use Riou's lvl2 spell first, then finish off with Jowy's lvl2 when he's the last man standing. Jowy should get two lvl3 and one lvl4 spell from the levels, which will make quick work of Double Head. Riou and Nanami will be at 1 HP. You can heal the others. Jowy is invincible in the fight. Jowy's high level will also make world map encounters and border encounters (most of them) Let Go, which can save a ton of time.
- When leveling Nanami on the way to kindness rune, two groups is better than one. First kill off slugs to get her some levels, then you can go for 6x Doremi elves. With her new levels and by defending, Nanami should easily survive and get lvl45 or so. She goes down to 50% health if the elves use their unite attack. Having a fire rune on Riou helps here, because then you can 1-hit the Doremi elves and they won't even get a chance to attack.

The first one is a bit of a stretch. The second one I like a lot. I will have to do more testing on how often Salamander groups appear and how risky the bigger groups are, but things are looking good so far. The third one I would use every time, don't see any reason not to.

New leveling tricks:

- Riou gets lvl9 when he's last man standing against Mist Monster. Put him behind Bolgan. Usually finish up T5 with flaming arrows. Backup fire wall if you need more damage, shouldn't be needed though. If woman form triggers, then might need some medicine to keep Riou healthy. Got wiped once when testing. Skips leveling, Muse trip is safe, Let Go on world map.
- Fight Salamanders in Sindar Ruins, intent is to have Jowy as the last man standing. Give him chain mail, put behind Riou. No risk against 4 salamanders (keep medicine on Riou and Jowy though. Mainly because Jowy likes to protect Riou when he's critical, but the flame attack can't be protected against). More than 4 Salamanders might be risky. Use Riou's lvl2 spell first, then finish off with Jowy's lvl2 when he's the last man standing. Jowy should get two lvl3 and one lvl4 spell from the levels, which will make quick work of Double Head. Riou and Nanami will be at 1 HP. You can heal the others. Jowy is invincible in the fight. Jowy's high level will also make world map encounters and border encounters (most of them) Let Go, which can save a ton of time.
- When leveling Nanami on the way to kindness rune, two groups is better than one. First kill off slugs to get her some levels, then you can go for 6x Doremi elves. With her new levels and by defending, Nanami should easily survive and get lvl45 or so. She goes down to 50% health if the elves use their unite attack. Having a fire rune on Riou helps here, because then you can 1-hit the Doremi elves and they won't even get a chance to attack.

The first one is a bit of a stretch. The second one I like a lot. I will have to do more testing on how often Salamander groups appear and how risky the bigger groups are, but things are looking good so far. The third one I would use every time, don't see any reason not to.

Omnigamer

2013-03-26 07:28:22 pm

All the things

Salamanders only appear in groups of 3 or 4; no need to test further. AS for the third point, 6x DoReMi is definitely the thing to shoot for since it provides an instant 30 levels and you can let that be the only battle. Before I used 2 sets of ZombieSlugs to get to mid-30s (2x followed by 3x ideal, but any combination works) since they are weak to Shield and at level 48 can be killed off in one L2.

Your strategy for Sindar sounds interesting, but you can probably abbreviate it to having just Riou/Nanami die and gain enough levels on Jowy and anybody else that's still alive. The problem is that you can't guarantee encountering any Salamanders at all since the timeframe when they can appear is so short (only after placing the Triangle). It still sounds risky and I don't like the idea of potentially having to hunt for certain enemy groups, but I'm willing to play around with it.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-03-27 05:04:24 am

2013-03-27 05:01:44 am

I like the idea of going for Magic Drain rune. You will then have an extra 30 seconds or something to encounter Salamanders. 30 seconds is nothing compared to the gains, really. What I'd do with the Magic Drain is sell it in White Deer Inn when you leave, then check for Fury in Muse and buy it if it's there. Having Fury on kindness rune bearer until you get Violence should save time, and it's at practically no time loss. Also no need to get double-strike later. One thing to consider when going with this strat is that Shiro doesn't need double-beat, and thus you wouldn't need to go to Muse rune master to remove it. However, I prefer letting Shiro have it, because then you can transition between the two strats if you don't happen to get a Salamander group (just fight a random group when close to Double Head). As a side-note, Muse rune master also sells Fire runes.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-03-27 06:29:14 am

Vaslof: 2013-03-27 06:27:32 am

Vaslof: 2013-03-27 06:25:49 am

2013-03-27 06:25:25 am

So uh something strange happened in Greenhill. After the tour with Emilia, I went to talk to her and she greeted me by Riou's real name. Then I went upstairs (trying to find a way to trigger the recruit scene). I went back and talked to her, now she greeted me by my fake name. Then after the Shin scene by the inn, I went to talk to her again, and now she greets me by Riou's real name again. Then after sleeping in the dorms and going back to her once again, she greets me by the fake name. What the hell is up with this lady and her recruitment :[

Omnigamer

2013-03-27 07:08:42 am

All the things

The game is very inconsistent at that point about the names. The fake names hardly ever get any use. One thing I think might affect her recruitment: pick up an Old Book at some point and then give it a try. I think that might be a condition for her.

Fury would be excessive and no real benefit. All the bosses up until getting Violence would still be dealt with in the same number of turns. Since Violence triggers Berserk, you're actually losing out for the last part of the game too.

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-03-27 07:51:02 am

Vaslof: 2013-03-27 07:48:46 am

Vaslof: 2013-03-27 07:48:18 am

Vaslof: 2013-03-27 07:47:59 am

2013-03-27 07:46:03 am

Ah right. Your notes numbers might be outdated then. I did Star Dragon Sword in 1T (2 moves), Abomination in 1T (2 moves), Pest Rat in 2T (3 moves). Maybe you can get the same numbers without Fury. I haven't had a file with Nanami early kindness and no fury, so I can't say. Btw, we could probably get Violence early while Matilda glitching, but it won't be needed if every boss is 2 turns.

I'm now up to Banner Pass with the new strats. Riou got lvl52 from Highlanders with the new strat because he was killed off in both Sindar fights. Nanami was lvl45, and I also had Luc and Flik with extra levels due to s1 data. I had Let Go on almost every group through the game so far, with the exception of some of the bigger groups (like 6x Doremi elves when going to Matilda, and 6x shark in Two River sewers). Something to investigate is the relation between amount needed to bribe and the requirements of triggering Let Go.

EDIT: Removed ramblings..

Vaslof

Edit history:

Vaslof: 2013-03-27 08:15:33 am

2013-03-27 08:13:33 am

What about Doremi Elves 6x first, kill em with Explosion, would Nanami get insane levels since she'd be at her starting level?
If I calculated it right it's only 30 levels, but I'm not good with these things.