Sonic Adventure 2 Hero/Dark Story

2007-10-10 05:10:54 am

Thanks for the support guys, I appreciate it. Smiley

I've been somewhat busier with school, but I've practiced up to Meteor Herd now. Death Chamber seems to be the most problematic hunting stage, but it should take less than 2 minutes if I don't make some serious navigation error. Meteor Herd is comparably easy, and is usually finished in under 1:30 (perhaps 1:20).

I should also go back and at least re-practice City Escape... if I can help it, I'd like the first stage of the run to look fairly impressive.

petrie911

2007-10-10 08:29:26 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

page glitch?

Saestrol

2007-10-11 01:16:13 am

Speed Running Joy-bringer

After some considerable SDA downtime, I yanked this run and was impressed immensely by what I saw. A top notch quality run for a Single-Segment.

yoshifan

2007-12-08 09:31:39 am

Just thought I'd mention that I've recently continued working on this Hero story run. I've been too busy to practice much for the past month or so, so I'll probably go ahead and re-practice all of the levels. I wouldn't want a great run to end just because I'm really rusty at some level (or boss fight).

In the meantime, I'd like to make sure there's a clear ruling on the trick at the end of Crazy Gadget. There was discussion about it earlier in this topic starting from reply #47. However, I'll make a demonstration video later in an attempt to make the situation more clear.

petrie911

2007-12-09 06:25:49 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

Good to hear you're working on it. BTW, I can contact mikwuyma for you if you like. He seems to listen to me.

Also, I hear you found a way to beat Egg Golem Dark much faster. Care to clue me in? That and that thing Sadistic found in Cosmic Wall are my two main improvements for when I get around to redoing the Dark Story run.

Anyways

Quote:

After some considerable SDA downtime, I yanked this run and was impressed immensely by what I saw. A top notch quality run for a Single-Segment.

Thank you. Always nice to see appreciation of my work.

yoshifan

2007-12-09 08:54:57 pm

Well, first I'd like to try contacting mikwuyma in IRC.

For Egg Golem Dark, the new strategy should help somewhat in a speedrun, but getting near 12 seconds would probably be difficult. The 12-second strategy includes restarting multiple times to slow the Golem down, and jumping into the quicksand at the end to stop the timer a bit early - probably not advisable in a speedrun. The useful trick, however, is to shoot the Golem near the unbroken panels on its body. You'll know you're doing it right if the outline of the panel flashes red. A shot aimed at the unbroken panels will do three times as much damage as a shot aimed anywhere else.

Well then, here's the demonstration video for the Crazy Gadget trick: http://www.vortiginous.com/yoshifan/Sonic_Adventure_2_Battle/CrazyGadget_EndTrickDemo.avi

And a full explanation:

Part 1 - here I'm demonstrating a normal goal ring entry (though the path I take was probably not intended by the level designers). On the purple block I hit a switch (the white ball), which activates the missile on the goal platform. Then I jump to the goal platform and step on the green button to shoot the missile. This destroys the barrier in front of the goal ring box, and I show that I'm able to enter it. I still have more to demonstrate, so I jump off the edge of the platform instead of finishing. Here you can also see what a normal falling death is like: Sonic yells, the screen fades to black, the life counter decreases by one, and Sonic reappears at the last checkpoint.

Part 2 - Now I demonstrate part of the trick - the path leading up to the unusual goal ring entry. Note that the gravity switching is a normal part of the level. However, I perform a very high bounce "up" the purple block to reach an area that I'm not supposed to. From there, I jump onto the underside of the goal ring platform. At the underside, there's an invisible "falling death" plane that continues down from the front boundary of the goal ring box. I cross the plane and start the falling death sequence, and show that I can actually fall through the goal ring box from the underside.

Part 3 - I get to the underside of the goal ring box like in Part 2. But this time, right after crossing the death plane, I drop through the box and into the goal ring. I finish the level before the screen fades to black, and my life counter doesn't decrease. (Though I don't show it in this video, the life counter also doesn't decrease by the time I start another level.)

Here's what I'm wondering: is the finish in Part 3 an instance of death abuse because the death plane is crossed? Is it going out-of-bounds because the designers probably put death planes in places you're not supposed to go?

Well, first I'd like to try contacting mikwuyma in IRC.

For Egg Golem Dark, the new strategy should help somewhat in a speedrun, but getting near 12 seconds would probably be difficult.  The 12-second strategy includes restarting multiple times to slow the Golem down, and jumping into the quicksand at the end to stop the timer a bit early - probably not advisable in a speedrun.  The useful trick, however, is to shoot the Golem near the unbroken panels on its body.  You'll know you're doing it right if the outline of the panel flashes red.  A shot aimed at the unbroken panels will do three times as much damage as a shot aimed anywhere else.

Well then, here's the demonstration video for the Crazy Gadget trick: http://www.vortiginous.com/yoshifan/Sonic_Adventure_2_Battle/CrazyGadget_EndTrickDemo.avi

And a full explanation:

Part 1 - here I'm demonstrating a normal goal ring entry (though the path I take was probably not intended by the level designers).  On the purple block I hit a switch (the white ball), which activates the missile on the goal platform.  Then I jump to the goal platform and step on the green button to shoot the missile.  This destroys the barrier in front of the goal ring box, and I show that I'm able to enter it.  I still have more to demonstrate, so I jump off the edge of the platform instead of finishing.  Here you can also see what a normal falling death is like: Sonic yells, the screen fades to black, the life counter decreases by one, and Sonic reappears at the last checkpoint.

Part 2 - Now I demonstrate part of the trick - the path leading up to the unusual goal ring entry.  Note that the gravity switching is a normal part of the level.  However, I perform a very high bounce "up" the purple block to reach an area that I'm not supposed to.  From there, I jump onto the underside of the goal ring platform.  At the underside, there's an invisible "falling death" plane that continues down from the front boundary of the goal ring box.  I cross the plane and start the falling death sequence, and show that I can actually fall through the goal ring box from the underside.

Part 3 - I get to the underside of the goal ring box like in Part 2.  But this time, right after crossing the death plane, I drop through the box and into the goal ring.  I finish the level before the screen fades to black, and my life counter doesn't decrease. (Though I don't show it in this video, the life counter also doesn't decrease by the time I start another level.)

Here's what I'm wondering: is the finish in Part 3 an instance of death abuse because the death plane is crossed?  Is it going out-of-bounds because the designers probably put death planes in places you're not supposed to go?

petrie911

2007-12-09 10:38:17 pm

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

You know, I always wondered why hitting the panels straight on caused a slightly different effect (the panel flashes red instead of the whole golem). Good to know (and nice discovery).

Anyways, I wouldn't think it would count as either. Speed levels in SA2 have fairly ill-defined boundaries, ESPECIALLY that area of Crazy Gadget, and you didn't really die. In fact, I'll bet you'd go through that floor even if that death plane wasn't there, so the death part probably had little to do with it.

Still, always best to ask mikwuyma.

yoshifan

2007-12-11 09:13:44 am

Well, Mike said that the trick doesn't involve death abuse or going out of bounds, because the death sequence doesn't complete. I suppose that death is the game's mechanism for controlling boundaries, so it's more or less the same issue.

It looks like all that's left is practice now, so I'll do my best.

yoshifan

2007-12-16 05:48:38 am

Well, I certainly didn't see this coming. A new strategy was just discovered for Eternal Engine, courtesy of SadisticMystic:

I'll ask whether it's legal for SDA, but this is looking somewhat more questionable than Crazy Gadget.

By the way, here's what a run of Eternal Engine looked like before - it's perfectly normal except for the trick at the end:

Satoryu

2007-12-16 06:26:36 am

Visually Appealing

there's no question. that new glitch is definitely oob.

petrie911

2007-12-16 09:03:05 pm

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

Unfortunarely I have to agree with Satoryu. I just can't see any way that glitch would be ruled OK.

yoshifan

2007-12-17 03:17:31 am

Right, mikwuyma said it's OOB as well. I heard that the trick does have consistency issues though, so I'm sort of relieved. >_>

SadisticMystic

2007-12-17 04:47:15 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

The consistency issues are partially alleviated by being able to apply constant brute force, and 15 seconds is usually enough to fall through--considering the trick saves about a minute as long as you get the ending down, you'd still come out far ahead.

But yes, something like this is pretty much the definition of egregious out-of-bounds skips, and would have to be discouraged if that rule is to have any bearing at all.

yoshifan

Edit history:

yoshifan: 2007-12-23 09:27:50 am

2007-12-23 09:26:15 am

Okay, I feel that I've done sufficient practice for this Hero story run by now. I'll start some real attempts as soon as I can. I'm pretty sure my eagerness to get this done can (partially) combat the temptation of new games. Wink

yoshifan

Edit history:

yoshifan: 2007-12-28 07:33:31 am

2007-12-28 12:38:02 am

I've made just two speedrun attempts. The first attempt had no deaths and some very good points, but I lost some serious time in Death Chamber and against the Egg Golem.

The second attempt also had no deaths. It ended up being nearly a minute faster than the first run, I think. This run isn't what I'd call unbeatable, but there's really not a lot wrong with it either.

Here's the video. And here are the times:

City Escape - 2:07:60 (My best with this strategy is 2:02)

Big Foot - 0:35:29 (0:22)

Wild Canyon - 0:40:44 (0:22)

Eggman 1 - 0:12:90 (0:12)

Prison Lane - 1:44:00 (1:38 )

Metal Harbor - 1:34:99 (1:31)

Shadow 1 - 0:16:32 (0:12)

Green Forest - 1:39:77 (1:38 )

Pumpkin Hill - 0:58:84 (0:35)

Mission Street - 2:21:39 (2:20)

Aquatic Mine - 1:10:09 (0:29)

Route 101 - 2:16:22 (2:14)

Hidden Base - 1:57:70 (1:52)

Pyramid Cave - 2:07:92 (2:02)

Death Chamber - 1:12:57 (0:59)

King Boom Boo - 0:46:25 (0:45)

Egg Golem - 0:56:87 (0:52)

Eternal Engine - 3:03:79 (2:51)

Meteor Herd - 0:47:12 (0:37)

Rouge - 0:16:89 (0:15)

Crazy Gadget - 1:56:94 (1:50)

Eggman 2 - 0:18:94 (0:16)

Final Rush - 2:32:07 (2:22)

Shadow 2 - 0:30:05 (0:28 )

TOTAL - 32:04:96 (double check, please?)

Sonic levels: City Escape was fine for me, but if Paragod's times are any indication, I could still use some work there - it may be something to improve in the future. Metal Harbor, Pyramid Cave, and Crazy Gadget were quite good overall. Green Forest was fantastic, and probably one of the best things about this run. I was close to losing my nerve in Final Rush, but I got through with an okay time. Kind of a shame though, as I got a 2:23 FR on my first run attempt - that would've been phenomenal at the end of a single segment.

Tails levels: Prison Lane and Hidden Base were slightly flawed, but fairly good overall. Mission Street went rather smoothly. I was a bit shaky in Route 101 for some reason, but I managed to avoid major mistakes and got a good time. Eternal Engine was a little sloppy, but it's not much slower than what I'd expect. (There are a couple of vertically moving platforms that are quite difficult to catch in time to save ~7 seconds. Without doing that, my best is 2:58.)

Knuckles levels: I kind of messed up Wild Canyon, but it still turned out fairly fast. Pumpkin Hill was okay, can't really complain about sub-minute. Aquatic Mine could be somewhat improved... I fumbled around at the start and lost several seconds, then I got a pretty unfavorable piece 3 which required about 15 seconds of swimming. Death Chamber and Meteor Herd were awesome (and DC is easily the toughest hunting level for me).

Bosses: Big Foot was probably the worst boss fight, and it's also the one I'm most prone to screwing up... but at least a 12-13 second loss is about as bad as it gets. The Egg Golem seemed to react slightly slower than usual, and I'm not sure why - I guess it only cost a couple of seconds though. The rest of the bosses went quite nicely. I only got hit once against Eggman 2, and it was intentional.

The only thing that would make me a little hesitant to submit this is the fact that it's my second attempt. However, I've gone through a lot of practice (not to mention TSC experience) before starting my attempts, so I don't think making repeated attempts is going to help much. Plus, there's nothing that bothers me much about this run. The most improvable parts are probably Big Foot and Aquatic Mine, which bother me somewhat... but I certainly expected that I'd be dealing with bigger problems than that (such as deaths!).

So, what do you think?

I've made just two speedrun attempts.  The first attempt had no deaths and some very good points, but I lost some serious time in Death Chamber and against the Egg Golem.

The second attempt also had no deaths.  It ended up being nearly a minute faster than the first run, I think.  This run isn't what I'd call unbeatable, but there's really not a lot wrong with it either.

[url=http://www.vortiginous.com/yoshifan/Speed_Demos/SonicAdventure2_SS_Hero_32-04-96.avi]Here's the video.[/url]  And here are the times:

City Escape - 2:07:60  (My best with this strategy is 2:02)

Big Foot - 0:35:29  (0:22)

Wild Canyon - 0:40:44  (0:22)

Eggman 1 - 0:12:90  (0:12)

Prison Lane - 1:44:00  (1:38 )

Metal Harbor - 1:34:99  (1:31)

Shadow 1 - 0:16:32  (0:12)

Green Forest - 1:39:77  (1:38 )

Pumpkin Hill - 0:58:84  (0:35)

Mission Street - 2:21:39  (2:20)

Aquatic Mine - 1:10:09  (0:29)

Route 101 - 2:16:22  (2:14)

Hidden Base - 1:57:70  (1:52)

Pyramid Cave - 2:07:92  (2:02)

Death Chamber - 1:12:57  (0:59)

King Boom Boo - 0:46:25  (0:45)

Egg Golem - 0:56:87  (0:52)

Eternal Engine - 3:03:79  (2:51)

Meteor Herd - 0:47:12  (0:37)

Rouge - 0:16:89  (0:15)

Crazy Gadget - 1:56:94  (1:50)

Eggman 2 - 0:18:94  (0:16)

Final Rush - 2:32:07  (2:22)

Shadow 2 - 0:30:05  (0:28 )

TOTAL - 32:04:96  (double check, please?)

Sonic levels: City Escape was fine for me, but if Paragod's times are any indication, I could still use some work there - it may be something to improve in the future.  Metal Harbor, Pyramid Cave, and Crazy Gadget were quite good overall.  Green Forest was fantastic, and probably one of the best things about this run.  I was close to losing my nerve in Final Rush, but I got through with an okay time.  Kind of a shame though, as I got a 2:23 FR on my first run attempt - that would've been phenomenal at the end of a single segment.

Tails levels: Prison Lane and Hidden Base were slightly flawed, but fairly good overall.  Mission Street went rather smoothly.  I was a bit shaky in Route 101 for some reason, but I managed to avoid major mistakes and got a good time.  Eternal Engine was a little sloppy, but it's not much slower than what I'd expect. (There are a couple of vertically moving platforms that are quite difficult to catch in time to save ~7 seconds.  Without doing that, my best is 2:58.)

Knuckles levels: I kind of messed up Wild Canyon, but it still turned out fairly fast.  Pumpkin Hill was okay, can't really complain about sub-minute.  Aquatic Mine could be somewhat improved... I fumbled around at the start and lost several seconds, then I got a pretty unfavorable piece 3 which required about 15 seconds of swimming.  Death Chamber and Meteor Herd were awesome (and DC is easily the toughest hunting level for me).

Bosses: Big Foot was probably the worst boss fight, and it's also the one I'm most prone to screwing up... but at least a 12-13 second loss is about as bad as it gets.  The Egg Golem seemed to react slightly slower than usual, and I'm not sure why - I guess it only cost a couple of seconds though.  The rest of the bosses went quite nicely.  I only got hit once against Eggman 2, and it was intentional.

The only thing that would make me a little hesitant to submit this is the fact that it's my second attempt.  However, I've gone through a lot of practice (not to mention TSC experience) before starting my attempts, so I don't think making repeated attempts is going to help much.  Plus, there's nothing that bothers me much about this run.  The most improvable parts are probably Big Foot and Aquatic Mine, which bother me somewhat... but I certainly expected that I'd be dealing with bigger problems than that (such as deaths!).

So, what do you think?

Satoryu

2007-12-28 05:29:03 am

Visually Appealing

it sounds okay. send it in.

petrie911

2007-12-28 05:45:23 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

hmm...I wouldn't think that the Hero story would go faster than the dark story, what with the 2 extra levels. It looks good on paper, although it would help to see the video.

oh, and I also get 32:04.96

yoshifan

2007-12-28 07:36:12 am

I edited my post to include a link to the video. And I'm hoping this will fix the page glitch...

AngerFist

Edit history:

AngerFist: 2007-12-28 03:57:16 pm

2007-12-28 03:56:41 pm

Angered Me, You have!

Quote:

Here's the video. So, what do you think?

That run was pure rock n roll! I am not just saying that so you can submit it, it really is good and I think you might be a little bit harsh on yourself. You had fantastic momentum throughout the entire run. Oh, and I think I will cut your balls off if you don't submit it Kiss

After this, you have to keep producing fine Sonic runs.

petrie911

2007-12-28 07:07:13 pm

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

Yes, definitely a keeper. Placement was phenomenal on death chamber and Meteor herd, and you do an incredible job throughout.

Satoryu

2007-12-28 08:22:02 pm

Visually Appealing

holy shit. that blew me away. you'd be an absolute fool not to submit this.

Quote:

hmm...I wouldn't think that the Hero story would go faster than the dark story, what with the 2 extra levels.

well, Cosmic Wall takes as long as 2 stages. Hero side has no stage like that.

Rekubot

Edit history:

Rekubot: 2007-12-28 11:55:11 pm

2007-12-28 11:54:42 pm

Wow indeed. Keep it! It was so good that near the end I was suspecting you of doing it segmented and cutting the videos together. Tongue

As Satoryu said, you would be a fool not to submit this. Grin

yoshifan

2007-12-30 04:26:01 am

Glad to hear that you guys liked it. Smiley

I told mikwuyma about the run, so consider it submitted!

Jacob91

Edit history:

Jacob91: 2008-01-04 06:35:01 am

2008-01-04 06:34:15 am

Quote:

Wow indeed. Keep it! It was so good that near the end I was suspecting you of doing it segmented and cutting the videos together. Tongue

As Satoryu said, you would be a fool not to submit this. Grin

That's what I would think if it was anyone else, but - it was yoshifan. It doesn't surprise me he authored a run as tops as this.

@Yoshifan: tsk tsk that was a rather reckless crazy gadget. You sacrificed little for consistency there.

zabzuafreak

Edit history:

zabzuafreak: 2008-02-01 05:42:45 am

2008-02-01 05:40:11 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Hey, new on the SDA scene, but I'm extremely interested in attempting the Hero SS run. I've been doing individual level runs of this game for a couple years, so I'm experienced... just wondering if theres any key info I should study before I start my run.

(I would be more than happy to read all 17 pages... but... well... theres 17 of them -_-)

Oh... and the vid wont play for me...