Sonic 3 and Knuckles!

2011-10-20 08:37:03 pm

Make it so.

Quote from Skullboy:

I think what would be a separate category would be zips and no zips. That way, certain glitches could still be used but the player wouldn't be entering any walls,floors, or ceilings that they would be if they were zipping. Just an idea.

That sounds pretty fair, although like I said, there are two main types of Zip in this game (horizontal underflow and normal) which are pretty different in that HU skips an entire level.

Also "zip" would have to be defined as technically I don't think the first half of the Ice Cap glitch is a zip, would need confirmation from someone who actually knows how that works though.

mike89

2011-10-20 08:52:08 pm

SEGA Junkie

Yeah, Ice Cap 1 madness is not a zip. The slope glitch would have to be banned too.

On speedrunslive my brother and HDL put together a list of glitches:

The following are defined as glitches, to be omitted during glitchless runs:

Wheel glitch
Slope glitch
Screen wrap
Level wrap
Zips
Clipping through surfaces

It's a pretty exhaustive list, but one that I don't know if you can really enforce. Especially that last one: the game is actually designed to allow you to clip through corners, but abusing that allows a neat little shortcut in Lava Reef 1. I guess it's a case where you'd have to enforce the spirit of the rule and not the letter.

wfp

2011-10-21 12:33:39 pm

Quote from Tiberius:

Apart from that though I would certainly contemplate doing a glitchless run sometime. The other category I quite want to have a go at is New Game+ if it would be allowed, as in, start the game with all 14 emeralds and complete Doomsday at the end too. A lot of the routes would be the same, especially with glitches, but some could be really different. Would be insanely hard to control though, Hyper Sonic/Super Tails/Super Knuckles can be really awkward.

i'd personally love to see a 100% route that utilized some of the new route improvements. i think the most recent 100% route i've seen is a really old tas (and i couldn't find one done for tails, not that i really think tails' route would be all that different than sonic's).

Tiberius

2011-10-21 12:44:15 pm

Make it so.

Quote from wfp:

i'd personally love to see a 100% route that utilized some of the new route improvements. i think the most recent 100% route i've seen is a really old tas (and i couldn't find one done for tails, not that i really think tails' route would be all that different than sonic's).

Would you prefer to see a NG+ or a true 100% run?

wersterlobe

2011-10-22 11:58:26 am

100% would be ass to run just because the Special Stages are long and uneventful, just putting more time into runs before you mess up >_>

wfp

2011-10-22 12:30:34 pm

i'd prefer a 100% run, don't really care if glitches are used. i'm more curious to see the optimized route to get to 14 bonus stages plus the potential time savers that the emerald powered characters can create than actually care about some of the specifics (such as the massive time sink watching the bonus stages can be).

wersterlobe

2011-10-23 10:57:01 pm

I'm talking about making the run, not watching it, lol

mike89

2011-11-12 07:16:03 am

SEGA Junkie

So a couple of days ago I got into a glitchless Sonic 3 race and afterwards, started thinking about glitchless routes, which eventually led me to having a serious go at a glitchless set of runs.

Tonight I've been playing around with some of the levels which have major changes in a glitchless run, my best times on those tonight:
HC2: 1:34 (T), 1:29 (K)
MG2: 2:17 (T), 2:55 (K)
CN2: 2:34 (T)
IC1: 1:43 (T)
LB1: 2:17 (T)

With glitchless runs it's probably worth doing a Sonic one too, he at least gets a chance to show his differences in that run.

More when I can be bothered~

Tiberius

2011-11-12 09:05:54 pm

Make it so.

I've also been working on some glitchless routes, mainly as I still can't pull off a lot of the glitches with anything resembling accuracy... I say glitchless, it's more zipless to be honest. You think a zipless run would be accepted? It would still mean a bit of IC1 madness but not skipping IC2.

Also I would have to alter my MG2 strat since I found a neat way of getting the underflow without the ridiculous fire shield route, it's considerably slower but still works. I've regularly got times of around 1:30 using it.

By the way, I assume the run waiting for more verifiers is yours mike89? A finished Knux run?

mike89

2011-11-13 01:40:40 am

SEGA Junkie

Yeah, it's the run I posted on the last page. I'm still not 100% happy with it, but my recording laptop suddenly decided recording audio wasn't necessary, and refuses to do it now. So I won't be recording any more attempts for the forseeable future, unless I happen to do something remarkable at AGDQ I guess.

re: an alternate category, basically it'd fall under the site-wide "no major skips" banner, so I can't see allowing stuff like IC1 madness being justified at all. I think if it was going to happen we'd stick to the definition above:

Quote from mike89:

The following are defined as glitches, to be omitted during glitchless runs:

Wheel glitch
Slope glitch
Screen wrap
Level wrap
Zips
Clipping through surfaces

moooh

2011-11-13 02:27:31 am

Exoray

I'm not sure "clipping through surfaces" should be something generally excluded. Unless it skips an entire level (or close to it) it wouldn't be considered a major skip and should be used in the run.

Tiberius

Edit history:

Tiberius: 2011-11-13 03:49:44 am

2011-11-13 03:47:39 am

Make it so.

The thing with the 'clipping through surfaces' is that it clips you into walls so by definition you have to zip to get out again, even in the LR1 example you zip a short distance.

Wheel glitch is unreliable with sonic (for me at least) so that's not a problem.

I guess I'm just wishing for a ruling where I can still use screen wraps etc haha.

On the bright side, hit a new personal best IL last night when practicing, 0:56 on CN1 without the wheel glitch.

Edit:

Quote:

Unless it skips an entire level (or close to it) it wouldn't be considered a major skip and should be used in the run.

That however is a definition I could get behind. Basically no underflow and no Ice Cap shenanigans. Would need a ruling as to whether the LR2 boss skip would be allowed or not as well though...

mike89

2011-11-13 03:58:04 am

SEGA Junkie

Yeah LR2 boss skip is basically what I had in mind as well. It just seems so silly that you can do exactly the same action and it'll be allowed or disallowed based on its result? That's not really a sensible rule to me.

Tiberius

2011-11-13 05:07:08 am

Make it so.

Also LR2 boss skip should be allowed on account of the boss being a 2 minute joke and timesink, not sure the mods would agree though haha.

moooh

2011-11-13 07:26:28 am

Exoray

I was thinking more in the line of clipping through thin platforms or something like that. But yeah, no major skips doesn't make sense for most games so it will be difficult finding an appropriate set of rules for it that doesn't turn it into being plain glitchless.

mike89

Edit history:

mike89: 2011-11-13 09:10:33 am

2011-11-13 08:45:46 am

SEGA Junkie

Well, "clipping through surfaces" means two things to me. Firstly you have the jumping through stairs which is effective in LR1 (particularly as Tails) and LR2 as Sonic to set up the boss skip. With LR2 though you have to zip out of the wall which makes it invalid as a zip, however, in LR1 there's actually no zipping at all (contrary to what Tiberius said, at the very least if you hold nothing you will fall straight down), so it doesn't break any other rules. It would also look extremely out of place in a "no major skips" run.

The other thing I take it to mean in this context is the double-spindash to pass through sprite objects, such as the FB2 laser skip or the latter part of the LR2 boss skip. Both of these save huge chunks of time, but all it really is is a manipulation of the camera. In effect I would most closely compare it to the vertical screen wrap.

So I guess what we need to decide is a) how to categorise these glitches (particularly the second class I described), and b) whether those glitches that don't immediately put you at the end of the stage should be allowed. Essentially the distinction is "no major skips" or "no glitches", but in this particular case I believe that "no glitches" makes a more coherent run and, for those who dislike seeing half the levels in the game broken to pieces, a much better run to watch.

EDIT: Another one brought to my attention was going over the top of the stage boundaries. Personally I consider this OK, since the game mechanics remain the same - unless (as in Flying Battery 1-Knuckles) you need to use a zip to progress. So things like Hydrocity 1-Tails, Hydrocity 2-Knuckles and Ice Cap 2-Tails would still be okay.

Well, "clipping through surfaces" means two things to me. Firstly you have the jumping through stairs which is effective in LR1 (particularly as Tails) and LR2 as Sonic to set up the boss skip. With LR2 though you have to zip out of the wall which makes it invalid as a zip, however, in LR1 there's actually no zipping at all (contrary to what Tiberius said, at the very least if you hold nothing you will fall straight down), so it doesn't break any other rules. It would also look extremely out of place in a "no major skips" run.

The other thing I take it to mean in this context is the double-spindash to pass through sprite objects, such as the FB2 laser skip or the latter part of the LR2 boss skip. Both of these save huge chunks of time, but all it really is is a manipulation of the camera. In effect I would most closely compare it to the vertical screen wrap.

So I guess what we need to decide is a) how to categorise these glitches (particularly the second class I described), and b) whether those glitches that don't immediately put you at the end of the stage should be allowed. Essentially the distinction is "no major skips" or "no glitches", but in this particular case I believe that "no glitches" makes a more coherent run and, for those who dislike seeing half the levels in the game broken to pieces, a much better run to watch.

EDIT: Another one brought to my attention was going over the top of the stage boundaries. Personally I consider this OK, since the game mechanics remain the same - unless (as in Flying Battery 1-Knuckles) you need to use a zip to progress. So things like Hydrocity 1-Tails, Hydrocity 2-Knuckles and Ice Cap 2-Tails would still be okay.

moooh

2011-11-13 10:23:34 am

Exoray

Well, you don't want to turn it into "no glitches" as that is not an accepted category for a run. For a no major skips, you'll need to define what action constitutes a major skip and what doesn't and then turn that into a coherent set of excludes. The times a no major skips category has been accepted for a game, the rules for them have been short and to the point.

Tiberius

Edit history:

Tiberius: 2011-11-13 07:47:59 pm

2011-11-13 07:43:25 pm

Make it so.

So something like:

No Horizontal Underflow (the zip that takes you to a boss room)
No Slope Glitch (just for IC1 really)

Might be accepted?

Actually, here's a thought: how about changing underflow to 'No usage of Loopback areas'. That would also eliminate the MG skip with one fell swoop. Also it might cover the wheel glitch too as even though there is a tails route in CN2 which uses the wheel glitch (might be IL only, it's ridiculous) you would still need to HU to keep the glitch from act 1.

Thoughts? Also a ruling on the LR2 skip would be really nice.

Edit: Just in case Moooh or anyone else hasn't seen it, the LR2 boss skip is shown in this vid at about 1:33

MarkSoupial

2011-11-15 11:10:47 pm

~_~

Quote from Lucid Faia:

You're aware of what exactly constitutes a "glitch," right? A programmer's oversight is nothing more than an ingenious tactic that the programmers of the game never took into account. A glitch is exactly what it sounds like, a glitch in the programming.

Take Metroid on the NES for instance. Getting to Tourian early is a brilliant programmer's oversight, but there's no way it's a glitch. As it pertains to Castlevania SOTN, using a potion in the "Spike Breaker" hallway isn't a glitch, because you're supposed to have temporary invincibility when using a potion. It falls in line with the code of the game, and was entirely intended to happen. The same holds true for bouncing off of a torch. Try using the Leap Stone's downwards kick to bounce off a torch, it works perfectly fine.

Honestly, I don't think you have the first clue for what a "glitch" really is.

Other than that, thank you for your opinion, and good luck with the runs.

moooh

2011-11-16 02:58:21 pm

Exoray

Pretty much why we don't track glitchless, but rather track major skips or no major skips.

Tiberius

2011-11-16 06:41:42 pm

Make it so.

Moooh, who should I get in contact with to verify if my definition of no major skips is acceptable? Also to get a ruling on the LR2 skip? The last thing I want to be doing is practicing for a run that would instantly get rejected on those grounds Smiley

VorpalEdge

Edit history:

VorpalEdge: 2011-11-17 01:42:01 am

2011-11-17 01:41:44 am

welcome to the machine

You would get in contact with Flip. Before you ask him to read this thread, you or mike89 should write up and post a good description of each trick and what it can do. Is it a small thing that saves 5-10 secs? Probably will be allowed. The point of the category isn't to legislate out every little glitch, as moooh noted. Does it just wrap you to the end of a level and/or skip levels entirely, or something like that? Probably will count as a major skip.

That said, s3k is broken enough that I can't really see how anything we decide on would satisfy everyone. There's a fair chance you'll be more satisfied using your personal definition and posting on youtube or some such. =/

mike89

2011-11-17 01:23:24 pm

SEGA Junkie

Quote from VorpalEdge:

That said, s3k is broken enough that I can't really see how anything we decide on would satisfy everyone. There's a fair chance you'll be more satisfied using your personal definition and posting on youtube or some such. =/

I'm so glad you said this, because I was starting to lean this way anyway, and that's not a slight on you or anyone who's helped sculpt this "no major skips" category, but it's increasingly obvious that whatever the result of this discussion, a run in whatever becomes the "no major skips" category is not a run I would watch; the definition is just too contrived in this case for me to enjoy it on that level.

That's not to stop anyone from trying. Smiley

mike89

2011-11-21 08:19:55 am

SEGA Junkie

Practice for AGDQ is going well, here's my latest run through with Tails:

AI: 54 / 1:39
HC: 43 / 43 +7
MG: 1:00 / 55
CN: 58 / 55
IC: 1:15
LB: 48 / 1:45
MH: 1:09 / 1:14
FB: 1:30 / 1:38
SO: 1:12 / 2:32
LR: 1:53 / 2:04
HP: 34
SS: 1:01
DE: 1:52 / 3:25

TOTAL: 31:46

Yes, two minutes faster than the run I pulled out of the queue. Tongue

Lots and lots of rust on some of these levels (AI2 was bad, HC2, FB2, HP, DE2 were all levels where I lost a few easy seconds) but it showed that I had all the major stuff down. 2:04 for LR2 is actually a minute and a half of attempting the boss skip, but is still faster than playing the boss normally. In a previous run I got 45 seconds here Shocked

A target of somewhere under 30 minutes looks good for now. Maybe towards 29 with a lot of luck on LR2, but who knows.

Tiberius

2011-11-21 09:27:44 am

Make it so.

I thought there were problems with the LR2 skip with tails only having one attempt, I take it you've sorted that out? Great news, AGDQ is going to be sweet if you can do this AND all the awesome new Sonic 2 stuff being found.