Sonic 3 and Knuckles!

AlecK47

2013-01-24 02:20:55 pm

Yeah, I have to say that this run is submittable as well. That sub 30 would be awesome to see, though.

HDL

2013-01-28 09:14:05 am

Hey y'all. For a while I didn't make any of my runs very accessible (apart from Twitch archives). I took care of that, so if anyone's interested in seeing Tails or Knuckles here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/lordhdl
https://twitter.com/lordhdl

I tweeted some links for downloading the source videos (60 fps).

e-peen +12

wersterlobe

2013-02-08 08:03:42 am

I had to post cause this was swag

http://www.twitch.tv/werster/c/1907924

Btw everyone follow HDL he's a god. Also damn I want sub 30!!

mike89

2014-01-01 08:02:26 am

SEGA Junkie

Guess who's back?

Sonic in 37:52

I'm unsure, but this should be the best time for Sonic alone that we know of. TimpZ claims a 38, and Tiberius claims "something under 40", but neither of those are definitively better than 37:52 so I think I'm ahead for now.

What this run doesn't show, however, is the huge amount of tricks I left out. Specifically:
* Carnival Night 2 - bubble clip using barrel - saves ~30 seconds, roughly 90% chance of immediately ending the run though
* Launch Base 2 - frame perfect tube jump - saves 1:20. I actually hit this in an earlier run in this session, and was almost 3 minutes ahead of 39:44 after FB1... and pissed the whole run away Sad

* Mushroom Hill 1 - similar to Tails or co-op using the door, saves ~30 seconds
* Flying Battery 2 - similar to Tails, saves a minute and a half. However, this trick is precise to the subpixel and you only get one attempt at it, or at least that's my understanding - I haven't actually tried this trick at all
* Sandopolis 1 - This level has a new strat involving pushing the first brick to the left and using it to zip. It might require Tails (even as CPU) though, I'm not sure.
* Lava Reef 2 - lol nobody's ever gonna get this in a run

That combined with the obvious mistakes in the run (that Lava Reef 2 stair zip is bullshit, by the way), an optimal run is probably somewhere in the 32-33 minute range. But, um, good luck?

I also got a 25:02 with Knuckles a couple of days ago, but that's kind of moot since HDL already has a 22:40 and has already flagged his intention to submit it.

Guess who's back?

[url=http://www.twitch.tv/mike89sda/c/3477780]Sonic in 37:52[/url]

I'm unsure, but this should be the best time for Sonic alone that we know of. TimpZ claims a 38, and Tiberius claims "something under 40", but neither of those are definitively better than 37:52 so I think I'm ahead for now.

What this run doesn't show, however, is the huge amount of tricks I left out. Specifically:
* Carnival Night 2 - bubble clip using barrel - saves ~30 seconds, roughly 90% chance of immediately ending the run though
* Launch Base 2 - frame perfect tube jump - saves 1:20. I actually hit this in an earlier run in this session, and was almost 3 minutes ahead of 39:44 after FB1... and pissed the whole run away :(
* Mushroom Hill 1 - similar to Tails or co-op using the door, saves ~30 seconds
* Flying Battery 2 - similar to Tails, saves a minute and a half. However, this trick is precise to the subpixel and you only get one attempt at it, or at least that's my understanding - I haven't actually tried this trick at all
* Sandopolis 1 - This level has a new strat involving pushing the first brick to the left and using it to zip. It might require Tails (even as CPU) though, I'm not sure.
* Lava Reef 2 - lol nobody's ever gonna get this in a run

That combined with the obvious mistakes in the run (that Lava Reef 2 stair zip is bullshit, by the way), an optimal run is probably somewhere in the 32-33 minute range. But, um, good luck?

I also got a [url=http://www.twitch.tv/mike89sda/c/3472391]25:02 with Knuckles[/url] a couple of days ago, but that's kind of moot since HDL already has a [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4BIl330P3k]22:40[/url] and has already flagged his intention to submit it.

kirbymastah

2014-01-02 08:59:42 am

<(^_^)>

MH1 doesn't seem as bad as it used to; does HDL's method of getting the ~95% consistency of the zip work for sonic as well?

TimpZ

Edit history:

TimpZ: 2014-01-14 06:36:36 pm

TimpZ: 2014-01-14 06:35:14 pm

2014-01-14 06:34:46 pm

This is a pastebin I wrote immediately after my run: http://pastebin.com/Zy5Nji1F and after watching your run, I was honestly sceptical of you beating me, but I won't claim a better time from memory so I guess the time is yours :p.

If you're gonna go for the barrel clip, you might almost just as well just do the slope glitch method imo. I've gotten it once using savestates but I think the successrate would be at least the same if you put your mind into actually learning it :p.

MH1 is a bit harder with sonic since you have to do a precise jump as well as having the correct speeds, otherwise yes it's about the same.

Flying battery is not hard. All it takes is you getting the first jump correctly, which is easy is you just do at least a 4-tap, then a full jump after about half a second and not until you hit the slope you start holding left. Then use a visual cue to start holding right. It's probably 5-10 frames and not subpixel dependent considering my consistency at it at least. I think it matters for Tails since he's smaller but idk the specifics you'd have to ask HDL about that.

There's an even newer strat in SO1:

I personally wouldn't say it's worth it. I only got it once after about an hour but then again TeeNTee himself said it was consistent once you get it down so idk. Suffice it to say the MG strat is a lot safer at least even if this would be faster overall, not to mention Tails screwing you over :p.

Lava Reef 2, idk... I can get it maybe once every 10-20 tries of so with little practise so with a good setup, pause buffering and a lot of dedication I'm sure it's not worse than much of the other crap in the game.

I'm also gonna do more Sonic runs (and even knuckles ones!) but I got so much crap to do right now that I won't have the time I would need to dedicate to get a good run in so it's on hold for now. I also want to get my new streaming setup before doing any serious attempts at all which is probably going to be in february hopefully.

This is a pastebin I wrote immediately after my run: http://pastebin.com/Zy5Nji1F and after watching your run, I was honestly sceptical of you beating me, but I won't claim a better time from memory so I guess the time is yours :p.

If you're gonna go for the barrel clip, you might almost just as well just do the slope glitch method imo. I've gotten it once using savestates but I think the successrate would be at least the same if you put your mind into actually learning it :p.

MH1 is a bit harder with sonic since you have to do a precise jump as well as having the correct speeds, otherwise yes it's about the same.

Flying battery is not hard. All it takes is you getting the first jump correctly, which is easy is you just do at least a 4-tap, then a full jump after about half a second and not until you hit the slope you start holding left. Then use a visual cue to start holding right. It's probably 5-10 frames and not subpixel dependent considering my consistency at it at least. I think it matters for Tails since he's smaller but idk the specifics you'd have to ask HDL about that.

There's an even newer strat in SO1: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv4dWweKdfE
I personally wouldn't say it's worth it. I only got it once after about an hour but then again TeeNTee himself said it was consistent once you get it down so idk. Suffice it to say the MG strat is a lot safer at least even if this would be faster overall, not to mention Tails screwing you over :p.

Lava Reef 2, idk... I can get it maybe once every 10-20 tries of so with little practise so with a good setup, pause buffering and a lot of dedication I'm sure it's not worse than much of the other crap in the game.

I'm also gonna do more Sonic runs (and even knuckles ones!) but I got so much crap to do right now that I won't have the time I would need to dedicate to get a good run in so it's on hold for now. I also want to get my new streaming setup before doing any serious attempts at all which is probably going to be in february hopefully.

RoboSparkle

2014-01-15 09:40:49 am

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

Dat skip man. Looking forward to see how the Sonic and Knuckles runs develop further Smiley

echo314

2015-01-02 09:10:00 pm

I am trying to poll interest in doing a S3&K 100% Sonic alone run, with a no level warp rule. Would this style of run even be something that SDA would be interested in or is brute force speed the only thing that is considered? It is not that I can't do level warps, it is I have always felt "full path" runs are more entertaining to run and watch. I have never done a formal timing, but would estimate the run would be about 65 minutes from the time I first get control of Sonic. I do not want to spend the next few weeks practicing this run only to have it rejected. I am mainly trying to see if the style of run I am wanting to do would be accepted.

mike89

Edit history:

mike89: 2015-01-02 10:55:02 pm

2015-01-02 10:19:10 pm

SEGA Junkie

OK this is kind of tricky because I think this makes a really good watch (I've done it quite a few times actually) but I think SDA would only take 100% with the glitches. To make another category we have to decide what skips are "major" and what ones aren't and it's just a mess. Last time we tried this it was determined that not all zips would be considered major, so watching it it wouldn't make any sense since you'd be using some but not others. It's just a damn shame Sonic 3 has so many ways you can break it. Sad

I'd still totally like to see it though. I suspect it'd take longer than 65 minutes though - I did this a few times and I never got under 80 minutes real time - but it's bound to be interesting either way!

EDIT: also failed to realise this wasn't the other thread, merging

echo314

2015-01-02 11:03:58 pm

I can fully understand the trickiness of the vision of the run. I have always been kind of an odd speed runner and combined Twin Galaxy and SDA rules. For example, in SMB on NES the double back on 8-4 to enter the underwater section, I have no problem with. However doing the level warp in Ice Cap act 1 in Sonic 3 and skipping to the end of act 2 destroy what 100% should be. According to SDA rules 100% applies to getting the emeralds and not completing ever act as well.

I was very much wanting to start a dialog where the rules for a run could be discussed. As I mentioned I do not want to practice up, only to have a good run count for nothing.

Naegleria

(user is banned)

Naegleria

Edit history:

Naegleria: 2015-01-03 02:21:52 am

2015-01-03 02:19:47 am

if by level warp you mean level wraps, a 100% no horizontal underflow glitch would be a simple and fitting category name. not sure how it would go with SDAs usual naming scheme though (if anyone called it 100% no major skips i would make fun of them)

EDIT: I think timpz had a list of what he thought glitchless should be, HDL and mike89 made a race% category which banned certain ones as well if i remember right. either way, i think it would be best to just state which things are banned, 100% no level wraps, no pinwheel glitch, etc

AlecK47

2015-01-03 08:49:18 am

Timpz's post, which concerns glitchless but still of course has the major skips: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sonic_3_and_knuckles_27.html Lower on the page is a post by mike89, which I'd recommend reading as well; it's mostly glitchless-exclusive arguments, but it points out something about IC1.

The one thing I think all involved could agree on with a moment's thought is that the current runs qualify as "major skips" runs. Wink

Beyond that it gets a bit fuzzy.

I think level wrap, wheel glitch and (somewhat unfortunately) the LR2 boss skip are all locks as major skips, but there are a couple other issues that Timpz mentions:
Screen Wrap: only an issue in a couple levels (MG 1, SO2), but a definite gray area. IMO it's probably fine in the context of mike's old runs (really only skipping small sections).
Zips/Clipping: most of these lead to either minor time savers or level wraps (plus LR2), but the Knuckles route for AI2 is a bit sketchy. I'd lean toward that route being out.
Above the screen: these would probably be in (other than the old MG2 skip) because even though they can save a fair amount of time, they only skip sections of a level.
IC1 glitchless boss skips: I'd say out, as each act's boss is a technically major skip, no matter how fast it goes down (especially if this would make acts run together, as I suspect).

I probably missed something in there, so feel free to point it out. And personally I'd love to have a legit no major skips run up here.

Timpz's post, which concerns glitchless but still of course has the major skips: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/sonic_3_and_knuckles_27.html  Lower on the page is a post by mike89, which I'd recommend reading as well; it's mostly glitchless-exclusive arguments, but it points out something about IC1.

The one thing I think all involved could agree on with a moment's thought is that the current runs qualify as "major skips" runs. ;)  Beyond that it gets a bit fuzzy.

I think level wrap, wheel glitch and (somewhat unfortunately) the LR2 boss skip are all locks as major skips, but there are a couple other issues that Timpz mentions:
Screen Wrap: only an issue in a couple levels (MG 1, SO2), but a definite gray area.  IMO it's probably fine in the context of mike's old runs (really only skipping small sections).
Zips/Clipping: most of these lead to either minor time savers or level wraps (plus LR2), but the Knuckles route for AI2 is a bit sketchy.  I'd lean toward that route being out.
Above the screen: these would probably be in (other than the old MG2 skip) because even though they can save a fair amount of time, they only skip sections of a level.
IC1 glitchless boss skips: I'd say out, as each act's boss is a technically major skip, no matter how fast it goes down (especially if this would make acts run together, as I suspect).

I probably missed something in there, so feel free to point it out.  And personally I'd love to have a legit no major skips run up here.

echo314

Edit history:

echo314: 2015-01-03 08:05:14 pm

2015-01-03 07:59:09 pm

Okay, I am gathering that it is going to be impossible for a group of people to come to an agreement about what would and would not be allowed. I think I will switch my run to a 100% Knuckles. I will hope for sub 50. My secondary goal will to be done by Valentine's Day.

HDL

2015-01-04 08:00:47 am

No level wraps is something I had considered a while back (still might do it). I can't say what SDA's stance on it would be, but I can tell you what you'd get.

-AI is exactly the same. Knuckles still zips in AI2.
-You'd do all of HC2, with a few minor shortcuts.
-All of MG2 as Tails but you'd still skip it as Sonic and Knuckles.
-CN1+2 are both normal as there's no way to carry wheel glitch into act 2 without doing the act 1 wrap. You can still attempt the water shield clips as Sonic in CN2 (have fun with that nonsense).
-IC1 would still have slope glitch but you'd avoid the wrap in the tunnel and play IC2. You can actually carry slope glitch and use it to speed up the beginning of IC2, as seen in these videos: and
-You'd do LB normally. Tails will still go over the invisible wall at the end, though. There is, however, a way to trigger slope glitch in LB1 and use it to beat LB2 much faster, but I can't remember where it is or if it even saves enough overall time.
-All of MH1 normally and MH2 is the same.
-FB1 would be the same for Tails. Sonic and Knuckles would be obligated to use the same method he does instead of the faster wrap method.
-FB2 would still use slope glitch for Sonic and Tails, but Knuckles would have to play through the level normally.
-Tails and Knuckles always play through SO1, and SO2 is business as usual.
-LR1 still has stair clip, but you wouldn't set up the LR2 wrap so LR2 is normal up until wall skip, which Sonic and Tails would still do.
-HP exists.
-You'd still unlock the screen in SS as Sonic and Tails.
-No DE2 wrap for Tails.

That's about the gist of it. Something like half the run is different and the rest is the same. It's fairly different but does not avoid every difficult trick or run killer.

No level wraps is something I had considered a while back (still might do it).  I can't say what SDA's stance on it would be, but I can tell you what you'd get.

-AI is exactly the same.  Knuckles still zips in AI2.
-You'd do all of HC2, with a few minor shortcuts.
-All of MG2 as Tails but you'd still skip it as Sonic and Knuckles.
-CN1+2 are both normal as there's no way to carry wheel glitch into act 2 without doing the act 1 wrap.  You can still attempt the water shield clips as Sonic in CN2 (have fun with that nonsense).
-IC1 would still have slope glitch but you'd avoid the wrap in the tunnel and play IC2.  You can actually carry slope glitch and use it to speed up the beginning of IC2, as seen in these videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FspUCYtCbUQ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQfXLjlG8P4
-You'd do LB normally.  Tails will still go over the invisible wall at the end, though.  There is, however, a way to trigger slope glitch in LB1 and use it to beat LB2 much faster, but I can't remember where it is or if it even saves enough overall time.
-All of MH1 normally and MH2 is the same.
-FB1 would be the same for Tails.  Sonic and Knuckles would be obligated to use the same method he does instead of the faster wrap method.
-FB2 would still use slope glitch for Sonic and Tails, but Knuckles would have to play through the level normally.
-Tails and Knuckles always play through SO1, and SO2 is business as usual.
-LR1 still has stair clip, but you wouldn't set up the LR2 wrap so LR2 is normal up until wall skip, which Sonic and Tails would still do.
-HP exists.
-You'd still unlock the screen in SS as Sonic and Tails.
-No DE2 wrap for Tails.

That's about the gist of it.  Something like half the run is different and the rest is the same.  It's fairly different but does not avoid every difficult trick or run killer.

echo314

Edit history:

echo314: 2015-01-05 08:51:43 pm

2015-01-05 08:51:06 pm

I think I bit off a lot more than I could chew. AI1 is easy, even with getting the ring. AI2 while I can consistently clip into the wall, I cannot figure out how to zip to the middle of the level. I keep getting sit out into the middle of the pit of spikes just after the start of the level. The TAS just speeds through the level, but this takes insane luck. Does anyone have any advice on preforming the AI2 zip?

I am trying to do a 100% Knuckles run.

HDL

2015-01-10 11:59:31 am

Don't try to copy the TAS method, you won't reliably get it that way. Just copy the method in my run and it'll work every time.

Argick

2015-01-16 08:58:36 am

Hey guys. Can someone point me in the direction of some instructions for the Flying Battery Act 1 skip discovered by TeeNTee? I've been watching HDL's AGDQ run and I'm missing a key element of pulling it off. I can't get tails to keep his spindash going onto the launcher.

mike89

2015-01-16 05:49:16 pm

SEGA Junkie

I haven't put up my tutorial videos for Sonic yet where I explain this, but here we go. Every step is vitally important, you have at most one frame of error and even then you shouldn't rely on it.

* Get as close to the zipline as you can, stop dead and duck until the screen gets all the way to the bottom. Once it does, press one of the buttons to spindash and Start at the same time. Spindashing causes the screen to revert to it's normal position, so it'll scroll up if you don't pause. What you want here is to hit A and then Start on the very next frame so the screen hasn't moved up at all.
* Hold right and unpause. You should then roll all the way around the loop, and when you get to the cylinder the spindash will activate and you'll go right through it. There's then a couple of jumps you have to make to make sure you end up in the right spot at the end, but you can see those in the AGDQ video.

If you do it right, you should get 1:06. Smiley

HDL

2015-01-17 12:15:29 pm

If you roll into the lightning shield and jump into the invincibility you can maintain enough momentum to beat an earlier cycle and get 1:04. But since he's just starting I say just do the 1:06 strat for now.

echo314

2015-01-20 10:19:55 am

Once again I am switching up my run. Now I am switching to a Tails 100%. Timpz's tutorial videos have been amazing. I have to say that I was crazy to think I put put up a SDA quality run in a little over a month.

Argick

2015-01-24 08:30:42 am

Hey guys. I was running through Lava Reef act 1 and I've stumbled upon a potential skip. Take a look at the highlight http://www.twitch.tv/argick/c/5953033 (It's 11 seconds, excuse the end I was surprised when it happened)

After the spindash Tails manages to get stuck because he hits the rock that sits on the left in the lava instead of running over it and because he's moving at a downward angle he clips into the ground. Then because we are holding right the game forces us left and drops us out onto the ring box saving approximatly 5-6 seconds?

Now at first I thought it was a fluke but I've went back and I've managed to do it a few times. I'm wondering if we can find a way to make it consistant and if it's even worth doing towards a WR run. (I'd say it is) Your thoughts guys?

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2015-01-24 08:56:34 am

2015-01-24 08:56:19 am

That skip has been known for a while now; in fact it was in one of mike89's more recent SDA runs (I think one of the ones hdl has improved on though). IIRC it's subpixel-based and essentially luck. No reason not to hope for it, but unfortunately that's about all you can do. Good to see someone (presumably) new running the game though!

Argick

2015-01-24 03:21:29 pm

Hey Alec, I'm learning the game using the strats posted on the SDA game page and tips from HDL and Werster. Nowhere near any of your times yet, give me a few more months Smiley

AlecK47

2015-01-24 03:40:10 pm

I haven't run S3&K yet, actually. If you check the leaderboards, you will see that my name only shows up for Sonic 2. Wink

Argick

2015-01-24 04:18:49 pm

Hehe it was a general "your times" as in everyone here but that brings me nicely to Sonic 2. Sonic 2 will come after S3&K. Then Megaman NT after that. So I will compete against you eventually. Smiley