Sonic 3 and Knuckles!

2011-08-01 01:13:26 pm

Make it so.

Wow, sweet! Will watch the recording of that later, looking forward to it Smiley

I've been practicing a few random level strats and I was just wondering, on LR2, the stairs skip at the end, for some reason the zip isn't working for me. I can glitch through the stairs fine but it seems like it's not pushing me fast enough and I fall to my death instead of going into the tube, anyone know what I might be doing wrong?

wersterlobe

2011-08-01 11:40:38 pm

Holding left too much. Once inside the stairs you must only -tap- left for as little time as possible, holding it for more than like half a second will cause you to die. You should also switch to holding right in the air just so you're facing the right direction to spindash through the second wall.

mike89

2011-08-02 02:47:55 pm

SEGA Junkie

Run from earlier tonight: http://screwattack.com/videos/Sonic-3-and-Knuckles-single-segment-run-as-Knuckles-2826

Obviously I don't plan to submit it, but it is deathless and still looks alright. This is the baseline for all future attempts now.

Tiberius

2011-09-07 02:47:15 am

Make it so.

Quick update, practice runs and IL learning is progressing slowly due to work commitments but it is progressing. I am now very comfortable with the first few levels and some other random ones I've been practicing, can now pull off the Hydro 2 zip maybe 50% of the time which is a drastic improvement on my old inability to do it without dying 34 times first...

Quick question to anyone in the know (looking at you mike89 and wersterlobe):

Is the "Marble Garden Break" possible with Sonic alone? I can get to the glitched loopback and spawn act 2's boss in act 1 no problem but I can't beat it, I get a hit or two then totally lose control of sonic (can't even seem to jump, no jumping/spindashing sfx at the very least), or can't even find my position in the wall to begin with, any tips?

mike89

2011-09-07 03:11:18 am

SEGA Junkie

Sonic alone can do it, yes. (However, Sonic and Tails can't, which is interesting...)

To do it, you need to spindash across to the middle really really quickly, normally if you're going to fail it the second hit is the easiest spot to do it. You need to do eight really quick spindashes, I think the 6th one gets the first hit, then HOLD the 8th one so that it gets the second hit. Then release and do another spindash and you're in position to dodge the drill. After that you can just follow one of the videos, it's pretty easy from there.

Actually passing the stage is something else entirely, though (it's very easy to be either stuck forever or crushed once you trigger the act clear screen) and I haven't worked out how to do it consistently yet. HDL claims he can do it by lining the Flickies up, but I have no idea how.

Tiberius

2011-09-07 03:22:36 am

Make it so.

Hmm, will give this a go later (housemate is currently hogging the TV with Monster Hunter Tri), thanks for the advice!

I'll have to see how how consistently I can get it because the MG2 strat is actually coming along quite well for me, can regularly get sub minute times there.

But yeah, thanks a lot! Most of the other zips are coming along nicely, Ice Cap (although god knows where it comes out, I swear it's defferent every time), LB1 and LR2 are all doable for me now, been experimenting with FB2 using the slope glitch but I can't get any sort of consistency in where I end up so might give up on that one...

wersterlobe

2011-09-07 03:50:34 am

Oh, FB2 has a new zip that Sonic or Tails can do. I don't have an individual level done with Sonic, but this whole video might help you out a bit anyway.

Flying Battery 2 is at about 21 minutes. Hope you find it helpful, might pick up a few little tricks or two perhaps.

Ice Cap is shit yeah, but Marble Garden isn't that bad once you get it down, glad to see good progress for you =)

Tiberius

2011-09-07 04:13:26 am

Make it so.

God damn my router not working atm, I'm on a mobile broadband dongle atm so wouldn't normally watch videos but I'm so adding £5 credit to it just to watch that... Thanks so much!

Just accidentally found a new zip in Hydro 1, not very useful but in the part where you cross the top of the water (just before the life on top of the loop), if you turn around to lose some speed then turn back at the exact frame (I think it's exact) that you touch the corner of some solid ground, you get ejected downward to the lower, underwater path instantly. Doesn't lose much time either so could be a neat trick to try just for show!

mike89

2011-09-26 01:42:10 am

SEGA Junkie

Alright, S3K practice is back on, since AGDQ2 is drawing ever closer! I think I'm finally starting to get MG1 down (got the entire boss fight and progression to CN1 3 out of 3 today, as compared to 0 out of 22 yesterday...). Completed the last of those runs (despite completely botching Launch Base 1, among others) in 29:08, which is about 40 seconds off my best time so far. You should see a 26 minute run from me before too long, though!

Tiberius

2011-09-28 06:53:58 am

Make it so.

Lauch Base 1 is probably my most consistent level at the moment haha.

I'm still having some problems with MG1 but I have now managed it a few times so I know I can. At the moment I'm just really learning the strats for the later levels before coming back to the ones with odd tricks/skips because I know for sure I'm going to need some help on some of them (LB2 and MH1 in particular, I've never managed to pull off either of them).

I completed my first complete run of Sonic 3 the other day, despite not really having a strat for either IC2 or LB2 and not doing the MG1 skip, I still finished in sometime around 17 minutes (my housemate timed but then threw away the note so I don't know what it was exactly) thanks to a perfect Hydrocity 2 and the Ice Cap skip being semi-useful and sending me pretty close to the boss.

Oddly enough my least consistent level that I have a strat for is still AI1, hitting the spring up to the top route is fine now but getting the flame shield without landing on the spikes and immediately losing it happens 1/10 at best Undecided

26 minutes would be unbelievable, I look forward to it!

Lauch Base 1 is probably my most consistent level at the moment haha.

I'm still having some problems with MG1 but I have now managed it a few times so I know I can. At the moment I'm just really learning the strats for the later levels before coming back to the ones with odd tricks/skips because I know for sure I'm going to need some help on some of them (LB2 and MH1 in particular, I've never managed to pull off either of them).

I completed my first complete run of Sonic 3 the other day, despite not really having a strat for either IC2 or LB2 and not doing the MG1 skip, I still finished in sometime around 17 minutes (my housemate timed but then threw away the note so I don't know what it was exactly) thanks to a perfect Hydrocity 2 and the Ice Cap skip being semi-useful and sending me pretty close to the boss.

Oddly enough my least consistent level that I have a strat for is still AI1, hitting the spring up to the top route is fine now but getting the flame shield without landing on the spikes and immediately losing it happens 1/10 at best :-\

26 minutes would be unbelievable, I look forward to it!

unknown123

2011-10-02 07:10:51 pm

do you guys listen to the bgm still while playing the game or just listen to other music?

unknown123

2011-10-02 07:11:38 pm

Quote from unknown123:

do you guys listen to the bgm still while playing the game or just listen to other music?

or does any music distract you?

Tiberius

2011-10-03 01:27:04 am

Make it so.

Quote from unknown123:

do you guys listen to the bgm still while playing the game or just listen to other music?

The music can be useful for timings in some places, eg. the Angel Island 2 boss. But then again it can be annoying as hell, like when you get it stuck on the 'shaking ground' noise in MG1. Other than that it depends what mood I'm in/whether I can be bothered loading up spotify.

Also, S3&K music rocks.

mike89

2011-10-09 05:18:12 am

SEGA Junkie

Knuckles update:

AI: 48 / 44
HC: 56 / 59 +2
MG: 1:26 / 3
CN: 55 / 40
IC: 1:05
LB: 54 / 2:14 (10:46!!)
MH: 1:12 / 1:12
FB: 2:07 / 1:43 +62 Sad

SO: 2:15 / 2:34
LR: 1:31 / 1:36
HP: 8
SS: 1:07

TOTAL: 27:13

For the uninitiated: that Sonic 3 half is a whole four minutes faster than my run on the site right now. The whole run is five minutes faster.

I died no less than four times trying to get the FB2 skip to work. Sad

That's where all the added time comes from there. FB1 was also sketchy, as was Sandopolis 1 (I've decided I'm only going to make one attempt at the zip here, because then if I miss I don't lose any time at all). Everything else was incredibly good though, so expect me to be done with this pretty soon, and the time to be somewhere around 26 minutes!

Tiberius

2011-10-09 12:36:44 pm

Make it so.

Quote from mike89:

Knuckles update:

IC: 1:05

You're getting the Ice Cap skip regularly now then? Any tips on it for me? Still having serious problems getting it to do anything useful, more often than not it dumps me in the Knux route bit with the ice balls that can hurt Super Sonic, you know where I mean?

Also, seriously looking forward to this, sounds like it's going to be an incredible run.

mike89

Edit history:

mike89: 2011-10-14 09:14:32 am

mike89: 2011-10-14 09:13:49 am

mike89: 2011-10-14 06:42:08 am

2011-10-14 06:39:25 am

SEGA Junkie

EDIT: The below run is now available here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM7mQzgjN_s

So close Sad

AI: 48 / 44
HC: 55 / 1:01 +2
MG: 1:33 / 3 (ick)
CN: 57 / 41
IC: 1:05
LB: 54 / 2:21 (11:04)
MH: 1:14 / 1:10
FB: 1:58 / 1:34 +31
SO: 2:03 / 2:33
LR: 1:33 / 1:34
HP: 9
SS: 1:05

TOTAL: 26:28

Still one too many deaths on FB2, I can't let that slide. Regardless of that (and MG1, which was awful) I'm pretty much in the time range I want to be at now. I'm going to upload this run tonight. Hopefully. >_>

Quote from Tiberius:

You're getting the Ice Cap skip regularly now then? Any tips on it for me? Still having serious problems getting it to do anything useful, more often than not it dumps me in the Knux route ...

OK, let me explain what I do here. Basically once you activate the slope glitch you neutral jump onto the left facing slope, jump off it onto the right facing slope and press down, then hold left. You get pushed into a wall, switch to holding right for roughly half of the length of the wall (you kind of get a gauge for this), then switch back to left. Now you should start falling and pick up a couple of rings on the way.

The amount of rings you picked up determines what you do next. You should have 4 rings when you start the glitch, so once you pass through this batch of rings you'll have somewhere between 4 and 8.
If you have 4: there's a huge range of angles you can be at if you miss all the rings, just mess around and hope. I tend to use the same method as I do for 6, and it works sometimes. Note, however, that if you switch to holding right before you go past the two huge crushing blocks, it's very likely that they will crush you as you go past them.
5: This one's easy. After you go past the two huge crushers the screen scrolls into an open area with a left facing slope. As you come through this area your character will appear on the screen for a split second, switch to holding right at this point. Once you get near the end switch back to left otherwise you'll hit an ice blaster which will stop you in an area where you can't get to the boss hallway (without breaking the glitch, anyway).
6: Switch to right when you go past the crushing blocks instead. This one's far less reliable than 5.
7/8: Hold left the whole way down and pray. 7 is more reliable than 8.

Now, since you're playing as Sonic, where you come out is incredibly important. If you come out right near Knuckles' path like I normally do, you're screwed, because you can't go through the pillar to Knuckles' boss area (can't even screen wrap). So you have to jump out later than what I do (which you'll see in this video). Basically you want to look for a specific piece of terrain that the screen scrolls past as your cue to jump. While you're practicing, feel free to pause buffer to find a good one.

Once you've made it you then have to run into a right facing slope (aim for the right half of the slightly raised sections of ground) to drop into the ground and activate the act 2 zip. It's possible to do this and not know which corridor you're in: if the first thing you see of the screen scrolling is a checkpoint, you're at Sonic's corridor, if it's a switch, you're in Knuckles's corridor.

Which one you're at determines how you get to the act 2 boss room:
Sonic's corridor: Hold left for two seconds (use the timer) to change your position in the wall, then right for one second to zip to the end of it, then switch back to left until you can jump. Now you're in a sloped tunnel, so hold right and keep jumping until you reach the bottom. If it worked right, you'll appear above the boss room and you'll be standing on thin air. You need to jump down to trigger the boss.
Knuckles's corridor: Hold right for about a second, this pushes you lower in the wall you're stuck in so you can jump. As you see the screen scroll past the final corridor to the boss room, hold left and jump, and you should appear just above the ground.

Hope that helps!

EDIT: The below run is now available here: [noembed]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM7mQzgjN_s[/noembed]

So close :(

AI: 48 / 44
HC: 55 / 1:01 +2
MG: 1:33 / 3 (ick)
CN: 57 / 41
IC: 1:05
LB: 54 / 2:21  (11:04)
MH: 1:14 / 1:10
FB: 1:58 / 1:34 +31
SO: 2:03 / 2:33
LR: 1:33 / 1:34
HP: 9
SS: 1:05

[b]TOTAL: 26:28[/b]

Still one too many deaths on FB2, I can't let that slide. Regardless of that (and MG1, which was awful) I'm pretty much in the time range I want to be at now. I'm going to upload this run tonight. Hopefully. >_>

[quote="Tiberius"]You're getting the Ice Cap skip regularly now then? Any tips on it for me? Still having serious problems getting it to do anything useful, more often than not it dumps me in the Knux route ...[/quote]

OK, let me explain what I do here. Basically once you activate the slope glitch you neutral jump onto the left facing slope, jump off it onto the right facing slope and press down, then hold left. You get pushed into a wall, switch to holding right for roughly half of the length of the wall (you kind of get a gauge for this), then switch back to left. Now you should start falling and pick up a couple of rings on the way.

The amount of rings you picked up determines what you do next. You should have 4 rings when you start the glitch, so once you pass through this batch of rings you'll have somewhere between 4 and 8.
If you have 4: there's a huge range of angles you can be at if you miss all the rings, just mess around and hope. [b]I tend to use the same method as I do for 6, and it works sometimes.[/b] Note, however, that if you switch to holding right before you go past the two huge crushing blocks, it's very likely that they will crush you as you go past them.
5: This one's easy. After you go past the two huge crushers the screen scrolls into an open area with a left facing slope. As you come through this area your character will appear on the screen for a split second, [b]switch to holding right at this point[/b]. Once you get near the end switch back to left otherwise you'll hit an ice blaster which will stop you in an area where you can't get to the boss hallway (without breaking the glitch, anyway).
6: [b]Switch to right when you go past the crushing blocks[/b] instead. This one's far less reliable than 5.
7/8: Hold left the whole way down and pray. 7 is more reliable than 8.

Now, since you're playing as Sonic, where you come out is incredibly important. If you come out right near Knuckles' path like I normally do, you're screwed, because you can't go through the pillar to Knuckles' boss area (can't even screen wrap). So you have to jump out later than what I do (which you'll see in this video). Basically you want to look for a specific piece of terrain that the screen scrolls past as your cue to jump. While you're practicing, feel free to pause buffer to find a good one.

Once you've made it you then have to run into a right facing slope (aim for the right half of the slightly raised sections of ground) to drop into the ground and activate the act 2 zip. It's possible to do this and not know which corridor you're in: if the first thing you see of the screen scrolling is a checkpoint, you're at Sonic's corridor, if it's a switch, you're in Knuckles's corridor.

Which one you're at determines how you get to the act 2 boss room:
Sonic's corridor: Hold left for two seconds (use the timer) to change your position in the wall, then right for one second to zip to the end of it, then switch back to left until you can jump. Now you're in a sloped tunnel, so hold right and keep jumping until you reach the bottom. If it worked right, you'll appear above the boss room and you'll be standing on thin air. You need to jump down to trigger the boss.
Knuckles's corridor: Hold right for about a second, this pushes you lower in the wall you're stuck in so you can jump. As you see the screen scroll past the final corridor to the boss room, hold left and jump, and you should appear just above the ground.

Hope that helps!

Tiberius

2011-10-14 09:20:43 am

Make it so.

Quote from mike89:

Hope that helps!

You are my hero.

Just downloaded S3K through steam so I can practice with a controller and savestates, will ceraintly be having a go at this later. Thanks so much man, you and Werster have been an unbelievable help Smiley

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2011-10-14 10:40:05 am

2011-10-14 10:39:52 am

Sandbagging

Awesome job mike. Keep it up. The final product is going to be amazing ^^ (not that this one isnt)

Sonikkustar

2011-10-14 03:02:28 pm

The Great Farming Empire

You are the man mike.

yoshifan

Edit history:

yoshifan: 2011-10-15 01:42:57 am

2011-10-15 01:42:00 am

I'm really impressed by the breakdown of the Ice Cap trick. Looks like you're really spending some quality time to learn and secure all of the known major tricks, which is definitely not an easy thing to do in this game. Looking forward to the run!

unknown123

2011-10-20 08:16:57 pm

I know the glitches save a lot of time, but would it not take more skill(make it harder) to go through all the levels glitch free? I know that you can die trying to do the glitches but meh.

unknown123

2011-10-20 08:17:47 pm

Quote from unknown123:

I know the glitches save a lot of time, but would it not take more skill(make it harder) to go through all the levels glitch free? I know that you can die trying to do the glitches but meh.

would it not look more impressive to go through glitch free?

unknown123

2011-10-20 08:19:35 pm

sorry to spam post but yeh, got nothing against glitching, would do it to, but would also want to go through it all legit

Tiberius

2011-10-20 08:26:52 pm

Make it so.

Quote from unknown123:

sorry to spam post but yeh, got nothing against glitching, would do it to, but would also want to go through it all legit

The glitches add a (serious) element of randomness in some cases but most of them can and have been mastered to the point where it's the execution that matters.

A non-glitched route could be really interesting but the problem would be what was counted as a glitch. I've seen a TAS which was no "Horizontal Underflow" but still utilised the vertical screenwrap glitches and getting stuck in walls etc, would this be an acceptable category for SDA?

And if Vertical Screenwrap is counted then what about going out of boundaries above the screen? There would be some logistical issues regarding rules to be honest.

Apart from that though I would certainly contemplate doing a glitchless run sometime. The other category I quite want to have a go at is New Game+ if it would be allowed, as in, start the game with all 14 emeralds and complete Doomsday at the end too. A lot of the routes would be the same, especially with glitches, but some could be really different. Would be insanely hard to control though, Hyper Sonic/Super Tails/Super Knuckles can be really awkward.

Update wise: I'm starting to get the hang of both IC and MG skips now, not regular enough yet but I can pull them off so things are progressing. I'm also getting really good at the end of LR2, it usually takes me 3 or so attempts to get into the stairs then 2-3 to get past the wall after the tube now.

[quote="unknown123"]sorry to spam post but yeh, got nothing against glitching, would do it to, but would also want to go through it all legit [/quote]

The glitches add a (serious) element of randomness in some cases but most of them can and have been mastered to the point where it's the execution that matters.

A non-glitched route could be really interesting but the problem would be what was counted as a glitch. I've seen a TAS which was no "Horizontal Underflow" but still utilised the vertical screenwrap glitches and getting stuck in walls etc, would this be an acceptable category for SDA?

And if Vertical Screenwrap is counted then what about going out of boundaries above the screen? There would be some logistical issues regarding rules to be honest.

Apart from that though I would certainly contemplate doing a glitchless run sometime. The other category I quite want to have a go at is New Game+ if it would be allowed, as in, start the game with all 14 emeralds and complete Doomsday at the end too. A lot of the routes would be the same, especially with glitches, but some could be really different. Would be insanely hard to control though, Hyper Sonic/Super Tails/Super Knuckles can be really awkward.

Update wise: I'm starting to get the hang of both IC and MG skips now, not regular enough yet but I can pull them off so things are progressing. I'm also getting really good at the end of LR2, it usually takes me 3 or so attempts to get into the stairs then 2-3 to get past the wall after the tube now.

Worn_Traveler

2011-10-20 08:32:09 pm

Formerly known as Skullboy

I think what would be a separate category would be zips and no zips. That way, certain glitches could still be used but the player wouldn't be entering any walls,floors, or ceilings that they would be if they were zipping. Just an idea.