Sonic 3 and Knuckles!

Strong Bad

Edit history:

Strong Bad: 2012-06-14 08:00:40 pm

Strong Bad: 2012-06-14 06:02:40 pm

2012-06-14 01:12:05 pm

Strive for Greatness

If you get stuck in an inescapable room, that means you pressed the jump button too many times. Forego mashing and learn to press it the correct amount of times instead.

EDIT: After doing some test runs of S3 Grand Prix, a 2'05"00ish run seems feasible, if not at least 2'10"00ish. Using S3 alone, of course. Who do I talk to to see if this category could be added?

Tiberius

2012-06-14 09:14:49 pm

Make it so.

Cheers for the tip, I'll get on adding that one to my route then.

With regards to the category, I think it's either Flip or Vorpal but I'm not 100% sure...

VorpalEdge

2012-06-15 06:39:37 am

welcome to the machine

For the record, we did in the past decide that s3 and s&k should always be combined because that's the full game, and letting players run either half separately seemed like letting players pick a half of the game to run. However, that ruling was made years ago, before we knew about s3-only glitches. As such, s3-only runs actually are allowed now. This applies to both the main game and the competition levels.

no, s&k solo is still not accepted. no, saving 5 seconds in mushroom hill 1 intro doesn't count. =p (although that would be allowed for ILs)

Strong Bad

Edit history:

Strong Bad: 2012-06-25 12:13:17 pm

Strong Bad: 2012-06-15 10:13:17 am

Strong Bad: 2012-06-15 09:57:45 am

Strong Bad: 2012-06-15 09:49:21 am

Strong Bad: 2012-06-15 08:37:48 am

Strong Bad: 2012-06-15 08:04:14 am

Strong Bad: 2012-06-15 07:56:42 am

2012-06-15 07:56:29 am

Strive for Greatness

Fantastic. Expect a Competition Mode run within a month. I might even be able to do a S3 alone run after learning Marble Garden and Ice Cap's tricks and refreshing my memory on a few levels. Smiley

Launch Base 2 & Hydrocity 2 will require a death for their nonsense heh.
EDIT: And now the search for my Genesis begins..

EDIT2: After doing some races with werster, sub 2 mins should be possible. It'll take a while to get consistent at the two new tricks I'll be using though. If nothing else, sub 2:05 is within my reach. Doing some preliminary runs on emulator as I hunt down my Genesis, my best run so far is 2'08"83 without these tricks, 2'02"73 with and the other levels weren't optimal.

Strong Bad

2012-06-25 12:11:37 pm

Strive for Greatness

A small update for the 2 or 3 people that might care:

Desert Palace has been shortened by something like 15 seconds with the TAS strategy of tricking the lap marker. Check the video description for details on it.
With this and two other new tricks, one that was discovered just yesterday (that I hopefully will have a video of within a couple days), I should now be able to achieve sub 1 minute 30 seconds. And I've decided to use Tails for my run, instead of Sonic as I originally planned to, as he's overpowered and is the best on all 5 levels now that these new tricks make his worst stages ones he's the best at.

On the non-run side of things, I'm still looking for my Sega Genesis (>_>) and working on resolving some issues with my recording setup. Thankfully I'm still not at the point where I'd be recording runs, so it's not that big of a deal, but still. I'd rather videos I record to demonstrate new tricks for you guys not be Potato 200kbps Quality thanks to my shitty internet connection, heh. This run just happened to occur during a livestreamed practice session, and I really didn't expect to get it; my previous record was a crappy 21 second run and I hadn't practiced the new strategy enough, I just got lucky to get it right on all 5 laps. The real challenge will be getting consistent enough to where I can get 12 or 11 in a real run, on top of getting acceptable times on the other levels :/

A small update for the 2 or 3 people that might care:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx3EUysvsl8

Desert Palace has been shortened by something like 15 seconds with the TAS strategy of tricking the lap marker. Check the video description for details on it.
With this and two other new tricks, one that was discovered just yesterday (that I hopefully will have a video of within a couple days), I should now be able to achieve sub 1 minute 30 seconds. And I've decided to use Tails for my run, instead of Sonic as I originally planned to, as he's overpowered and is the best on all 5 levels now that these new tricks make his worst stages ones he's the best at.

On the non-run side of things, I'm still looking for my Sega Genesis (>_>) and working on resolving some issues with my recording setup. Thankfully I'm still not at the point where I'd be recording runs, so it's not that big of a deal, but still. I'd rather videos I record to demonstrate new tricks for you guys not be Potato 200kbps Quality thanks to my shitty internet connection, heh. This run just happened to occur during a livestreamed practice session, and I really didn't expect to get it; my previous record was a crappy 21 second run and I hadn't practiced the new strategy enough, I just got lucky to get it right on all 5 laps. The real challenge will be getting consistent enough to where I can get 12 or 11 in a real run, on top of getting acceptable times on the other levels :/

TimpZ

Edit history:

TimpZ: 2012-08-02 05:13:21 am

2012-08-02 05:10:54 am

I have promised my viewers on twitch to make a tutorial regarding speedrunning this game as soon as I reach 100 followers and since I have 99 right now I guess I should make some things more clear before I lie to someone:

Do you accelerate more if you roll down hills (those that change in increments) than run on them? Slopes?

Is it faster to hit the ground with a roll than not after a loop?

How do you get a "superfly" or whatever they're called? You know when you start flying and you gain more height than usual in a short time.

Exactly how does the spindashing timers work? I know you have to release the first possible frame to get a full spindash but how fast does it decline after? Within how many frames do you have to press the first 6 buttons in order to get a 6-tap?

Anyone have a good setup/method for the new zip in Death Egg 2? I'm pretty inconsistent at the last part...

mike89

Edit history:

mike89: 2012-08-02 05:43:00 am

2012-08-02 05:42:42 am

SEGA Junkie

Quote from TimpZ:

Do you accelerate more if you roll down hills (those that change in increments) than run on them? Slopes?

I -think- rolling down any slope makes you accelerate faster than running. Obviously, though, you'll decelerate on flat ground when rolling.

Quote from TimpZ:

Is it faster to hit the ground with a roll than not after a loop?

Normally if you're going to do a loop jump it's to switch to running from rolling, because as mentioned, rolling on flat ground is slow (and most loops exit on flat ground).

Quote from TimpZ:

How do you get a "superfly" or whatever they're called? You know when you start flying and you gain more height than usual in a short time.

Basically the way this one works is that you can't actually start a fly until your vertical velocity drops below a certain point - and that's not until about halfway up a standard jump. You just have to get a feel for where it is, or else just mash buttons and get lucky. Tongue

Quote from TimpZ:

Exactly how does the spindashing timers work? I know you have to release the first possible frame to get a full spindash but how fast does it decline after? Within how many frames do you have to press the first 6 buttons in order to get a 6-tap?

I believe to get a perfect 6-tap you only have one frame to release the spindash, which is really annoying because releasing it one frame earlier means you'll just jump straight up. This doesn't matter all that much in a lot of cases, but for something like Launch Base 2-Sonic the requirements to pass through the platform are so precise that you absolutely have to release the spindash on the perfect frame.

Quote from TimpZ:

Anyone have a good setup/method for the new zip in Death Egg 2? I'm pretty inconsistent at the last part...

I can do a video of this for you soon if you want.

[quote="TimpZ"]Do you accelerate more if you roll down hills (those that change in increments) than run on them? Slopes?[/quote]

I -think- rolling down any slope makes you accelerate faster than running. Obviously, though, you'll decelerate on flat ground when rolling.

[quote="TimpZ"]Is it faster to hit the ground with a roll than not after a loop?[/quote]

Normally if you're going to do a loop jump it's to switch to running from rolling, because as mentioned, rolling on flat ground is slow (and most loops exit on flat ground).

[quote="TimpZ"]How do you get a "superfly" or whatever they're called? You know when you start flying and you gain more height than usual in a short time.[/quote]

Basically the way this one works is that you can't actually start a fly until your vertical velocity drops below a certain point - and that's not until about halfway up a standard jump. You just have to get a feel for where it is, or else just mash buttons and get lucky. :P

[quote="TimpZ"]Exactly how does the spindashing timers work? I know you have to release the first possible frame to get a full spindash but how fast does it decline after? Within how many frames do you have to press the first 6 buttons in order to get a 6-tap?[/quote]

I believe to get a perfect 6-tap you only have one frame to release the spindash, which is really annoying because releasing it one frame earlier means you'll just jump straight up. This doesn't matter all that much in a lot of cases, but for something like Launch Base 2-Sonic the requirements to pass through the platform are so precise that you absolutely have to release the spindash on the perfect frame.

[quote="TimpZ"]Anyone have a good setup/method for the new zip in Death Egg 2? I'm pretty inconsistent at the last part...[/quote]

I can do a video of this for you soon if you want.

TimpZ

Edit history:

TimpZ: 2012-08-02 05:51:00 am

2012-08-02 05:49:48 am

I'd love a video on DE2 but I think you kind of misinterpreted 2 of my questions so I'll try to reformulate them:

In the scenario where there's two loops right after eachother, would it be faster to jump and roll down the first and then jump to run on the second?

After you did a 6 tap spindash and then wait, how fast does the speed after release decline? Like do 6 taps and release on 1st frame for full speed, wait 2-5 frames for a 5-tap, wait 6-8 frames for a 4 tap... or how does it work? Also, within how many frames do you have to tap the first 6 buttons in order to actually get a 6 tap in the first place?

mike89

2012-08-02 05:55:13 am

SEGA Junkie

If you have two loops in succession, you should loop jump in both of them.

I don't actually know how spindash speed deteriorates, I'd be completely guessing without memory values in front of me. I will say, however, that I'm almost certain that it doesn't decrease incrementally, it decreases gradually. (By this I mean, there's speeds between "5 tap" and "6 tap", and so on).

TimpZ

2012-08-02 05:58:23 am

Okay I'll see if I can find more information about that, but I was certain there was 6 levels of spindash, not more :o.

Thanks for the answers though and I'll be looking forward to that video :).

Tiberius

2012-08-04 10:14:01 am

Make it so.

Just chipping in to say that I am pretty much positive that mike89 is right and there are more than 6 spindash speeds.

When planning (and generally talking to myself) I note 12 effective speeds, those being ordered by number of taps and whether or not they are "perfect", as in first frame release. So I will say that I need a perfect 6-button for LB2 but as an example, an imperfect 3-button dash followed by a full jump will land you directly on the cap of HC2 after beating the boss.

There are probably more speeds than 2 for each but that's the easy way of looking at them I think.

TimpZ

2012-08-05 10:15:46 am

Well I went ahead and recorded the tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7EFA7A95F0943813

I split it into 2 parts, engine and glitches (where I kinda just play through the game and explain as I go during the second one) and then of course twitch likes to cut off the video every 2 hours...

I realised afterwards that I said wrong on left and right quite a few times... I blame the emulator ;). Anyway I'll add annotations later.

Check it out if you like.

TimpZ

Edit history:

TimpZ: 2012-08-13 03:13:21 pm

2012-08-13 03:03:30 pm

So I have researched a bit into the whole Blue Knuckles thing. After many hours of trying and searching I finally found and developed this method:

http://twitch.tv/primat91/b/328511444

Basically you can play in any stage as Blue Knuckles without lag. You'll also start in Sonics part of the stage so you can play e.g. Angel Island 2 and Launch Base 2 from Sonics starting position.

I tried this on PAL Mega collection for GC.

ais523

2012-08-14 10:50:17 pm

There are 8 possible spindash speeds: http://info.sonicretro.org/SPG:Special_Abilities#Spindash_.28Sonic_2.2C_3.2C_.26_K.29
(9 speeds if you count letting it run out entirely and not moving at all, but you probably don't.) The top one requires frame-perfect play.

mike89

2012-08-15 03:11:11 am

SEGA Junkie

That whole physics guide is actually a really useful resource, thanks for linking that!

mike89

2012-08-22 11:14:04 am

SEGA Junkie

For TimpZ:

Gamble5688 and I have been experimenting with other methods to do this zip consistently, but we haven't got anything concrete yet.

Strong Bad

Edit history:

Strong Bad: 2012-09-08 05:09:16 pm

Strong Bad: 2012-09-08 04:55:03 pm

Strong Bad: 2012-09-08 06:53:57 am

2012-09-08 06:53:36 am

Strive for Greatness

Azure Lake & Endless Mine strats. Check video descriptions for explanations.

Purchased Sonic Mega Collection, so I can stream now/do attempts now.

Going to start streaming/recording ILs until I feel ready to do Grand Prix attempts. If anyone wants to watch, follow me on twitch. I don't really have a set streaming schedule or anything so following is your best bet.

TimpZ

Edit history:

TimpZ: 2012-09-23 10:51:00 am

TimpZ: 2012-09-23 10:48:44 am

TimpZ: 2012-09-23 05:48:34 am

TimpZ: 2012-09-23 03:04:06 am

TimpZ: 2012-09-22 09:27:24 pm

TimpZ: 2012-09-22 09:26:37 pm

TimpZ: 2012-09-22 09:25:24 pm

TimpZ: 2012-09-22 09:23:26 pm

TimpZ: 2012-09-22 09:20:18 pm

TimpZ: 2012-09-22 09:19:13 pm

TimpZ: 2012-09-22 09:18:26 pm

TimpZ: 2012-09-22 09:17:28 pm

TimpZ: 2012-09-22 09:16:59 pm

2012-09-22 09:15:44 pm

Considering how S3&K is slowly descending into a mess of screen and level wraps I'm considering the value of doing a glitchless run. But as with all games you'd have to define what glitchless means and here are my thoughts.

We have the obvious ones:

Wheel glitch
Slope glitch
Screen wrap
Level wrap
Zips
Clipping through surfaces
Going through unloaded objects by manipulating the camera (Yes LR2 boss skip I'm talking to you)

But other than that there's a few things in the game that's hard to properly define as glitches according to me.

Going above the screen - There are several instances in all the classic sonic games where going above the screen is part of the natural route or at least something that naturally happens sometimes. In S3&K they tried to fix possible exploits of this by making tails not able to fly past the barrier and if he did, not fly higher up than he can jump. For knuckles they made his glide being completely still above the screen thus making him just fall down. In Sonic 3 alone sonic can't do his insta-shield above the screen but he can in S3&K. If Sonic have an electric shield he can without any problems jump above the screen either by himself or by having Tails fly him up as far as possible.

That which complicates things is that being above the screen isn't considered weird by the game and there's several examples of where it's easy to imagine that the developers intentionally left them there or even designed the levels for you to be able to stand on ground above the screen. A good example of this would be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDHGzlUoa_Q[ (9:40-11:25). Another thing that complicates matters is that there's different types of blocks that constitutes the levels. The difference is their solidity. At a lot of places there's no solid ground above walls on top of the screen and if there is it's usually scarcely apart and connected to the graphics in some way (probably due to lazyness). However there's a couple of places where you can simply jump above the screen and then run on solid ground until you get down again such as in HC2 (http://www.twitch.tv/primat91/b/333130091 ~1:10). Should doing this be considered a glitch (especially considering the HC video)?

Something that complicates matters even more for Tails sake is Tails flying mechanics above the screen as opposed to within the screen boundaries. As I explain in the HC1 video, you can spindash and spam fly without loosing your forward speed but this is not the case within screen boundaries as you will drastically loose forward speed while ascending. Another exploit showing a similar difference this would be http://www.twitch.tv/primat91/b/327057685 (0:20-0:40) where you will accelerate to running speed while descending and decelerate to around walking speed during ascension. But during the case of being above the screen there's nothing decelerate you in the first place as standard running physics apply as opposed to normal flying mechanics! How would someone deal with this the best? (again mentioning the HC1 video, do note that the developers must've known about this)

Spindashing in the air - If you got something breakable underneath you and you spindash or you're being pushed off an edge as you do so, you will keep spindashing until you reach the ground and also released down. This is a small timesaver useful in several instances such as AI2 (http://www.twitch.tv/primat91/b/325791561 0:06). Two things tell me this is intentional and not a glitch:

* It is present in all the classic sonic games with spindash physics (I think even chaotix has it but not sure)
* The timer deciding the spindash speed is paused and the game doesn't even try to release it until it checks for you to touch the ground. Therefore they knew about it since Sonic 2 and put that piece of code there instead of putting you into a jump mode or similar. There's also a glitch in HC2 where the boss does not appear or you're able to simply run past the boss if you spindash too quickly. They way the fixed this in S3&K was to fix the triggers so that wouldn't happen rather than alter the spindash physics.

There are ways to interrupt the spindash such as falling into a score slot or a booster which will render some funny effects like being stuck in roll mode or running in place with dust particles etc. But this is not the case with falling onto regular ground.

Unintentional glitches / glitches that doesn't effect gameplay - Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles is a very glitchy game. Almost any given slope is prone to stop you to a halt without any apparent reason, accidental clipping into surfaces happen on occasion, sprites not loading fast enough (or even too fast sometimes) give some weird graphical effects and much much more. I would not consider a speedrun containing any of these being "glitched" as it is in fact just how the game works normally. Play the game enough and you will always find some new glitchy madness. As long as the glitch doesn't affect actual end time, should it still be considered glitchless?

Please give me your thoughts on these and also tell me if I missed something.

EDIT: Jumping out of the water tube in the beginning of HC1, thoughts on that?

Considering how S3&K is slowly descending into a mess of screen and level wraps I'm considering the value of doing a glitchless run. But as with all games you'd have to define what glitchless means and here are my thoughts.

We have the obvious ones:

Wheel glitch
Slope glitch
Screen wrap
Level wrap
Zips
Clipping through surfaces
Going through unloaded objects by manipulating the camera (Yes LR2 boss skip I'm talking to you)

But other than that there's a few things in the game that's hard to properly define as glitches according to me.

[b]Going above the screen[/b] - There are several instances in all the classic sonic games where going above the screen is part of the natural route or at least something that naturally happens sometimes. In S3&K they tried to fix possible exploits of this by making tails not able to fly past the barrier and if he did, not fly higher up than he can jump. For knuckles they made his glide being completely still above the screen thus making him just fall down. In Sonic 3 alone sonic can't do his insta-shield above the screen but he can in S3&K. If Sonic have an electric shield he can without any problems jump above the screen either by himself or by having Tails fly him up as far as possible.

That which complicates things is that being above the screen isn't considered weird by the game and there's several examples of where it's easy to imagine that the developers intentionally left them there or even designed the levels for you to be able to stand on ground above the screen. A good example of this would be [noembed]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDHGzlUoa_Q[[/noembed] (9:40-11:25). Another thing that complicates matters is that there's different types of blocks that constitutes the levels. The difference is their solidity. At a lot of places there's no solid ground above walls on top of the screen and if there is it's usually scarcely apart and connected to the graphics in some way (probably due to lazyness). However there's a couple of places where you can simply jump above the screen and then run on solid ground until you get down again such as in HC2 (http://www.twitch.tv/primat91/b/333130091 ~1:10). Should doing this be considered a glitch (especially considering the HC video)?

Something that complicates matters even more for Tails sake is Tails flying mechanics above the screen as opposed to within the screen boundaries. As I explain in the HC1 video, you can spindash and spam fly without loosing your forward speed but this is not the case within screen boundaries as you will drastically loose forward speed while ascending. Another exploit showing a similar difference this would be http://www.twitch.tv/primat91/b/327057685 (0:20-0:40) where you will accelerate to running speed while descending and decelerate to around walking speed during ascension. But during the case of being above the screen there's nothing decelerate you in the first place as standard running physics apply as opposed to normal flying mechanics! How would someone deal with this the best? (again mentioning the HC1 video, do note that the developers must've known about this)

[b]Spindashing in the air[/b] - If you got something breakable underneath you and you spindash or you're being pushed off an edge as you do so, you will keep spindashing until you reach the ground and also released down. This is a small timesaver useful in several instances such as AI2 (http://www.twitch.tv/primat91/b/325791561 0:06). Two things tell me this is intentional and not a glitch:

* It is present in all the classic sonic games with spindash physics (I think even chaotix has it but not sure)
* The timer deciding the spindash speed is paused and the game doesn't even try to release it until it checks for you to touch the ground. Therefore they knew about it since Sonic 2 and put that piece of code there instead of putting you into a jump mode or similar. There's also a glitch in HC2 where the boss does not appear or you're able to simply run past the boss if you spindash too quickly. They way the fixed this in S3&K was to fix the triggers so that wouldn't happen rather than alter the spindash physics.

There are ways to interrupt the spindash such as falling into a score slot or a booster which will render some funny effects like being stuck in roll mode or running in place with dust particles etc. But this is not the case with falling onto regular ground.

[b]Unintentional glitches / glitches that doesn't effect gameplay[/b] - Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles is a very glitchy game. Almost any given slope is prone to stop you to a halt without any apparent reason, accidental clipping into surfaces happen on occasion, sprites not loading fast enough (or even too fast sometimes) give some weird graphical effects and much [u]much[/u] more. I would not consider a speedrun containing any of these being "glitched" as it is in fact just how the game works normally. Play the game enough and you will always find some new glitchy madness. As long as the glitch doesn't affect actual end time, should it still be considered glitchless?

Please give me your thoughts on these and also tell me if I missed something.

EDIT: Jumping out of the water tube in the beginning of HC1, thoughts on that?

Tiberius

2012-09-23 05:27:43 am

Make it so.

I agree with you on pretty much all points here, I don't think that 'Spindashing in the air' as you call it is even bordering on being a glitch, I think it's intentional. As you say it's been there since Sonic 2 (Oo2 springs to mind, I'm sure amongst others) and it makes sense as a mechanic.

Going above the screen is an odd one though. I don't think that just running about the screen should be classed asa glitch but then again the bug with Tails' flying is getting close. Lets be honest, if you streamed that under the heading of 'glitchless', people would certainly complain... But then again for practicalities sake I think it should be allowed. I would class it as not being a glitch but it's up for debate for sure.

Agreed completely about unintentional glitches, if you had to reset every time a sprite messed up or something you would never get through most levels. And every run that did get far would be ended at Lava Reef...

With regards to the tube... I'm not sure how that works exactly but I thought it was just a pixel or two that you could jump off of? In which case it should be fine.

I agree with you on pretty much all points here, I don't think that 'Spindashing in the air' as you call it is even bordering on being a glitch, I think it's intentional. As you say it's been there since Sonic 2 (Oo2 springs to mind, I'm sure amongst others) and it makes sense as a mechanic.

Going above the screen is an odd one though. I don't think that just running about the screen should be classed asa  glitch but then again the bug with Tails' flying is getting close. Lets be honest, if you streamed that under the heading of 'glitchless', people would certainly complain... But then again for practicalities sake I think it should be allowed. I would class it as not being a glitch but it's up for debate for sure.

Agreed completely about unintentional glitches, if you had to reset every time a sprite messed up or something you would never get through most levels. And every run that did get far would be ended at Lava Reef...

With regards to the tube... I'm not sure how that works exactly but I thought it was just a pixel or two that you could jump off of? In which case it should be fine.

TimpZ

Edit history:

TimpZ: 2012-09-23 05:46:41 am

TimpZ: 2012-09-23 05:45:21 am

2012-09-23 05:44:04 am

The thing with Tails flying mechanics is that if you look at the level design of HC1 I could only assume that it was known about by the developers and designed around to some extent seeing as how:

* Flying above the screen from the max accelerated running speed will make you miss it by a hair
* Flying under will make you drop down much earlier
* You can't spindash up on top of it with even a perfect 6 tap with or without jumping from the slope where the monitor is

The implication being that flying at running speed was known and designed around. Of course you can get up there by other means but that's another story and seeing as how you don't do anything weird I'm leaning towards allowing it myself. Perhaps the top even is solid as an easter egg, who knows...

moooh

2012-09-23 06:37:37 am

Exoray

You probably knew this already but just to make things clear SDA would not accept "glitchless" runs as separate categories.
By all means do keep planning for running it casually if you think you'll be having an audience for it. It should probably be in its own topic in the casual board in that case, as not to clutter the main threads with it.

TimpZ

Edit history:

TimpZ: 2012-09-23 08:02:32 am

2012-09-23 08:01:23 am

Well while I am planning to do a glitchless run and try to get it sub 1 hour RTA or at least something I'm content with, all I really need is an agreed upon definition and I don't really see the harm in asking here. It's not like I'm derailing the active discussions and heated debates in the thread anyways :p. When I reach my personal goal I guess I'll start to incorporate glitches and we'll see where I go from there.

mike89

Edit history:

mike89: 2012-09-23 09:55:46 am

2012-09-23 09:48:22 am

SEGA Junkie

Given I haven't been serious about making glitchless a real SDA category for quite some time (I think what SDA classifies as a "no major skips" run would make no sense to a viewer or player) I basically made my definition "if it doesn't look normal, you probably shouldn't do it".

With that in mind, here's how I'd rule:
Going above the screen - In Sonic 1 and 2 I would say this is okay (there's a very simple route in Spring Yard 1 that goes over the top of the screen, for instance), but in Sonic 3 the fact that Tails's flight operates differently off screen is difficult to ignore. There's no precedent while on-screen for how Tails acts off-screen when you mash the fly buttons: whether you're flying in open air or against a ceiling, mashing will cause you to slow down significantly. This is also true of Knuckles, though it's not beneficial in his case. For safety's sake I would ban this in a glitchless ruleset.
Spindashing in the air - This is obviously an intended feature of crumbling platforms, definitely OK.
Unintentional glitches - Also definitely OK. As mentioned, you're having a very good day if you don't get randomly stopped by at least one ramp. Tongue

Jumping out of HC1 tube - This is the game's fault, it gives you control back a frame or two too early. Of course you can use it.

Two of my own:
1) does spindashing and jumping through the blue ramps in HC2 count as "clipping through surfaces"? Instinct tells me yes, but I'm not sure.
2) IC1 boss skip - you can do this as Tails or Knuckles without using any glitches at all, and it's faster to do so. Should beating all bosses be part of the ruleset?

As for Youtube videos, use [noembed] tags to stop them from taking up huge amounts of space.

Given I haven't been serious about making glitchless a real SDA category for quite some time (I think what SDA classifies as a "no major skips" run would make no sense to a viewer or player) I basically made my definition "if it doesn't look normal, you probably shouldn't do it".

With that in mind, here's how I'd rule:
Going above the screen - In Sonic 1 and 2 I would say this is okay (there's a very simple route in Spring Yard 1 that goes over the top of the screen, for instance), but in Sonic 3 the fact that Tails's flight operates differently off screen is difficult to ignore. There's no precedent while on-screen for how Tails acts off-screen when you mash the fly buttons: whether you're flying in open air or against a ceiling, mashing will cause you to slow down significantly. This is also true of Knuckles, though it's not beneficial in his case. For safety's sake I would ban this in a glitchless ruleset.
Spindashing in the air - This is obviously an intended feature of crumbling platforms, definitely OK.
Unintentional glitches - Also definitely OK. As mentioned, you're having a very good day if you don't get randomly stopped by at least one ramp. :P
Jumping out of HC1 tube - This is the game's fault, it gives you control back a frame or two too early. Of course you can use it.

Two of my own:
1) does spindashing and jumping through the blue ramps in HC2 count as "clipping through surfaces"? Instinct tells me yes, but I'm not sure.
2) IC1 boss skip - you can do this as Tails or Knuckles without using any glitches at all, and it's faster to do so. Should beating all bosses be part of the ruleset?

As for Youtube videos, use [noembed] tags to stop them from taking up huge amounts of space.

TimpZ

Edit history:

TimpZ: 2012-09-23 10:49:55 am

2012-09-23 10:49:29 am

To make an analogy, you can skip the forest, fire and water medallions in ocarina of time with a simple damage boost. Just because you can exploit basic mechanics of the game to do certain things doesn't mean it would make sense to end act 1 on the act 2 boss in a glitchless category. Penguins flashing into letters doesn't look very normal to me either ;).

If you take a look at this map right here http://www.soniczone0.com/games/sonic3/downloads/s3-hz-act2map.png you'll find that there's nowhere that at least one of the characters can't get to without clipping through the ramps. I'm not going to ramble about "developer intentions" or anything but it's pretty simple to me that it's not something I would call a basic mechanic in the game. Those particular ramps are so thin though so I think it's just like the clip in LR1 through the stairs only the limitations of the system in creating a smooth slope makes the whole thing like an edge. If you're going to ban one instance then ban them all imo.

The thing about flying... There are other exceptions which I would consider ok such as flying out of the fall also in HC1 that knuckles can't do. If you look at other instances such as falling from AI2 bridge or HC2 bridge just before the boss you'll notice that Tails can't fly out of that. I'm arguing that flying above should be an accepted exception since I don't believe it was truly unintended. Or maybe they just didn't give a shit, this is S3&K we're talking about.

Also would you ban going over the top and run on solid ground as Sonic or Knuckles on the grounds that Tails can fly faster? Even if it's allowed in the other games? If not, should flying above the screen when it's obviously allowed (while Knuckles is not allowed to glide) really be banned?

To make an analogy, you can skip the forest, fire and water medallions in ocarina of time with a simple damage boost. Just because you can exploit basic mechanics of the game to do certain things doesn't mean it would make sense to end act 1 on the act 2 boss in a glitchless category. Penguins flashing into letters doesn't look very normal to me either ;).

If you take a look at this map right here http://www.soniczone0.com/games/sonic3/downloads/s3-hz-act2map.png you'll find that there's nowhere that at least one of the characters can't get to without clipping through the ramps. I'm not going to ramble about "developer intentions" or anything but it's pretty simple to me that it's not something I would call a basic mechanic in the game. Those particular ramps are so thin though so I think it's just like the clip in LR1 through the stairs only the limitations of the system in creating a smooth slope makes the whole thing like an edge. If you're going to ban one instance then ban them all imo.

The thing about flying... There are other exceptions which I would consider ok such as flying out of the fall also in HC1 that knuckles can't do. If you look at other instances such as falling from AI2 bridge or HC2 bridge just before the boss you'll notice that Tails can't fly out of that. I'm arguing that flying above should be an accepted exception since I don't believe it was truly unintended. Or maybe they just didn't give a shit, this is S3&K we're talking about.

Also would you ban going over the top and run on solid ground as Sonic or Knuckles on the grounds that Tails can fly faster? Even if it's allowed in the other games? If not, should flying above the screen when it's obviously allowed (while Knuckles is not allowed to glide) really be banned?

RoboSparkle

2012-09-23 12:17:55 pm

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

My opinion on going above the screen is that sonic and knux are definitely fine. Tails is a trickier one because the flying mechanic basically allows you to stay up for longer and faster, so my gut instinct says no because it's too different to normal play.

Ramps and stairs I'd say no clipping through for a glitchless run because it is meant to be a barrier and the fact they made it razor thin means you're exploiting a programming error which sounds like a glitch to me. I'd offer the ramps in Carnival Night as a counterpoint as they are ramps that you are meant to be able to go through if you're rolling. If the Hydrocity ones had a similar mechanic then that would be fine (if you're going through them because of the foreground/background thing that would be different I guess, similarly if you can fly across the gap where the slides cross and skip one that should be fine too)