Phantasy Star IV

2014-10-20 09:33:46 am

Yes changing the slot and making a backup of your file can avoid some frustration... I hope it will push someone who has the real cartridge to do the run with all the work you've put into it!!

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-20 09:01:34 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-20 09:00:50 pm

2014-10-20 08:57:56 pm

I managed a time around 6:10 and said to hell with Ladea Tower lol. Grinded another level off the slugs and I'm making runs at Zio. Two hours of attempts and I reached Zio ZERO times. The fight is also low-percentage when fully macro'd. I am picking up the SpacedArmor because it allows Demi to survive long enough for two casts of Medic Power. This is going to take longer than I expected. Here are my Macros:

A. Rune Psy Wand, Gryz War Cry, Rika Saner, Demi Barrier, Chaz Crosscut

B. Rika Deban, Rune GiFoi, Chaz Tsu, Gryz Attack, Demi Defend

At this point, if all goes well, Zio casts hewn. Demi defends so she can live long enough to cast two Medic Power.

C. Demi Medic Power, Rune GiFoi, Rika DoubleSlash, Chaz Crosscut, Gryz Attack

I try to use this Macro twice to use all of Demi's Medic and all of Chaz' Crosscut.

D. Rika DoubleSlash, Chaz Tsu, Rune GiFoi, Gryz Attack, Demi Woodcane

I try to use this Macro three times to use all of Rika's DoubleSlash. The Woodcane cast is hopefully going to hit Rune or Rika, and sometimes healing Chaz works out. Gryz is normally dead by now. It sucks when he takes the heal, because he's kind of useless. Both Rika (one laser claw, one ceramic shield) and Rune can survive the single target. The others never do.

E. Rune GiFoi, Rika GiRes, Chaz Tsu, Gryz Attack, Demi Attack

By this point, it's usually just Rune alive and sometimes Rika. I want her to heal either herself or Rune, either is fine.

F. Rune Woodcane, all others attack

This is for the last rounds, which Rune must solo. He alternates between F and E Macros until Zio goes away.

IF Rika hits all her Doubleslashes, IF Chaz hits all his Crosscuts + a couple of Tsu, and IF Gryz gets in three good hits, then Rune can finish Zio off relatively quickly. If I miss too many attacks, it takes forever.

This fight is about 50/50 without Macros, but falls well below 10% with all Macros. Much tougher fight than I expected. The dungeon run is also a punisher. Like I said, I've yet to even make it to Zio.

I managed a time around 6:10 and said to hell with Ladea Tower lol.  Grinded another level off the slugs and I'm making runs at Zio.  Two hours of attempts and I reached Zio ZERO times.  The fight is also low-percentage when fully macro'd.  I am picking up the SpacedArmor because it allows Demi to survive long enough for two casts of Medic Power.  This is going to take longer than I expected.  Here are my Macros:

[b]A[/b]. Rune Psy Wand, Gryz War Cry, Rika Saner, Demi Barrier, Chaz Crosscut

[b]B[/b]. Rika Deban, Rune GiFoi, Chaz Tsu, Gryz Attack, Demi Defend

At this point, if all goes well, Zio casts hewn.  Demi defends so she can live long enough to cast two Medic Power.

[b]C[/b]. Demi Medic Power, Rune GiFoi, Rika DoubleSlash, Chaz Crosscut, Gryz Attack

I try to use this Macro twice to use all of Demi's Medic and all of Chaz' Crosscut.

[b]D[/b]. Rika DoubleSlash, Chaz Tsu, Rune GiFoi, Gryz Attack, Demi Woodcane

I try to use this Macro three times to use all of Rika's DoubleSlash.  The Woodcane cast is hopefully going to hit Rune or Rika, and sometimes healing Chaz works out.  Gryz is normally dead by now.  It sucks when he takes the heal, because he's kind of useless.  Both Rika (one laser claw, one ceramic shield) and Rune can survive the single target.  The others never do.

[b]E[/b]. Rune GiFoi, Rika GiRes, Chaz Tsu, Gryz Attack, Demi Attack

By this point, it's usually just Rune alive and sometimes Rika.  I want her to heal either herself or Rune, either is fine.

[b]F[/b]. Rune Woodcane, all others attack

This is for the last rounds, which Rune must solo.  He alternates between F and E Macros until Zio goes away.

IF Rika hits all her Doubleslashes, IF Chaz hits all his Crosscuts + a couple of Tsu, and IF Gryz gets in three good hits, then Rune can finish Zio off relatively quickly.  If I miss too many attacks, it takes forever.

This fight is about 50/50 without Macros, but falls well below 10% with all Macros.  Much tougher fight than I expected.  The dungeon run is also a punisher.  Like I said, I've yet to even make it to Zio.

Adgey

2014-10-22 08:11:12 am

Yeah, Zio is by far the hardest boss in an optimized single segment run as well. I think I may have to to fight a few battles in the Leadea tower to get everyone one level higher because it's impossible to kill him consistantly.

I only use two macros and do the rest manually. An optimal fight is I kill him with Chaz rika and rune alive although this only happens about 25% of the time. Most of the time its just Rune alive and when that happens it probably costs about 5 minutes at the very least in future grinding.

The macros I use are

A. Demi recover, rika res, chaz res, gryz wood cane, rune gifio

B. Demi, Medical power, rika - res, chaz - res, gryz wood cane, rune gifio

These probably arent relevant to you though seeing as youre doing segmented and optimization is completely different there.

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-22 08:22:44 pm

2014-10-22 08:13:04 pm

Interesting that you use res rather than gires with Rika. Is there a reason for that? It's true that with segmenting I'm trying to optimize macros, but I like the second macro a lot. Triple healing plus a Medic power is like a weak GiSar. There is a common occurrence where Demi's second MedicPower is not strong enough for Chaz and Gryz to survive Corrosion on the next round. I was getting desperate and considering using a precious Star Dew in this fight, but your shot of mega healing, followed by Zio doing a weak Hewn or a single target on Rune or Demi, just might be the edge that bumps a macro strategy into a higher percentage. Thanks.

I really wish I had something good to offer for single segment advice. The two styles are radically different. I do believe that if late-late game grinding is necessary, that Rykros or Sandworms are worth exploring, and very possibly The Edge itself. I do know that the Wreckage is a decent place to grind, as Whistles are weaklings with relatively high xp. But if the passageway to Kadary is better because of the slugs, then there is no reason to grind in the wreckage, other than taking a few battles while picking up Ceramics. Other good XP areas are the Weapons Plant (Arthropods, Wiredines, and Life Deleters) and the Silver Tusk cave area (Sky Tiaras and Moles), but enemies in those places do have high agility, making it questionable.

Interesting that you use res rather than gires with Rika.  Is there a reason for that?  It's true that with segmenting I'm trying to optimize macros, but I like the second macro a lot.  Triple healing plus a Medic power is like a weak GiSar.  There is a common occurrence where Demi's second MedicPower is not strong enough for Chaz and Gryz to survive Corrosion on the next round.  I was getting desperate and considering using a precious Star Dew in this fight, but your shot of mega healing, followed by Zio doing a weak Hewn or a single target on Rune or Demi, just might be the edge that bumps a macro strategy into a higher percentage.  Thanks.

I really wish I had something good to offer for single segment advice.  The two styles are radically different.  I do believe that if late-late game grinding is necessary, that Rykros or Sandworms are worth exploring, and very possibly The Edge itself.  I do know that the Wreckage is a decent place to grind, as Whistles are weaklings with relatively high xp.  But if the passageway to Kadary is better because of the slugs, then there is no reason to grind in the wreckage, other than taking a few battles while picking up Ceramics.  Other good XP areas are the Weapons Plant (Arthropods, Wiredines, and Life Deleters) and the Silver Tusk cave area (Sky Tiaras and Moles), but enemies in those places do have high agility, making it questionable.

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-22 08:45:56 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-22 08:45:00 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-22 08:42:18 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-22 08:41:24 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-22 08:40:22 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-22 08:39:47 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-22 08:38:17 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-22 08:29:54 pm

2014-10-22 08:28:23 pm

I just today learned that this game was officially released on PC more than 2 years ago, right when I stopped my first attempts! This is great news for those of us who can't be bothered getting this on hardware. I wonder if the PC release has any major differences? It's only 3 dollars. This really made my night.

Had more practice on Zio today. I just cannot find the magic bullet for this guy. I know there is an optimal strategy for macros, but I'm just not finding it yet. I need a strat with close to a 10% win chance. The run through Nurvus is somewhere around 10% for me (probably less) just to reach him with all of my party alive, let alone reaching him with a fast time. I really do need at least a .5-1% chance in this segment because it's almost 10 minutes long. I can accept hundreds of attempts on shorter segments, but this one...yeesh.

And because I really like hearing my fingers type...I'm rethinking the whole first half of the Motavia run. Do Alys and Hahn REALLY need to live through any of it? I only need them alive for the Sandworm fight and Juza. Alys contributes Saner to the Worm fight, and Hahn contributes Wat. Wat is good damage no matter his Mental rating, and Vortex is good enough with low Attack. Juza is beatable with an under-leveled Alys and Hahn, as long as they get a few good shots off.

Why not grind a little more with Rune part 1, while Alys and Hahn are dead (possibly bad because of low XP encounters)? It is a little bit hard to kill off Alys in the beginning, but I'm sure that I can just unequip her armor and pretty easily manipulate a death. Hahn is always easy to kill. And with those two dead, grinding Slugs is a major boost to Chaz and Rika. Doing the early game this way would put Chaz and Rika a level higher vs Zio, without losing much time. Gryz, to an extent, can also miss out on some XP gains, namely the Ladea Tower. He rarely survives a single target Zio attack anyways, and he's not a big damage contributor. Of course, he is essential for slug grinding so he will gain some. Would I be insane to kill him off in the Sandworm fight?

To the laboratory!!

I just today learned that this game was officially released on PC more than 2 years ago, right when I stopped my first attempts!  This is great news for those of us who can't be bothered getting this on hardware.  I wonder if the PC release has any major differences?  It's only 3 dollars.  This really made my night.

Had more practice on Zio today.  I just cannot find the magic bullet for this guy.  I know there is an optimal strategy for macros, but I'm just not finding it yet.  I need a strat with close to a 10% win chance.  The run through Nurvus is somewhere around 10% for me (probably less) just to reach him with all of my party alive, let alone reaching him with a fast time.  I really do need at least a .5-1% chance in this segment because it's almost 10 minutes long.  I can accept hundreds of attempts on shorter segments, but this one...yeesh.

And because I really like hearing my fingers type...I'm rethinking the whole first half of the Motavia run.  Do Alys and Hahn REALLY need to live through any of it?  I only need them alive for the Sandworm fight and Juza.  Alys contributes Saner to the Worm fight, and Hahn contributes Wat.  Wat is good damage no matter his Mental rating, and Vortex is good enough with low Attack.  Juza is beatable with an under-leveled Alys and Hahn, as long as they get a few good shots off.

Why not grind a little more with Rune part 1, while Alys and Hahn are dead (possibly bad because of low XP encounters)?  It is a little bit hard to kill off Alys in the beginning, but I'm sure that I can just unequip her armor and pretty easily manipulate a death.  Hahn is always easy to kill.  And with those two dead, grinding Slugs is a major boost to Chaz and Rika.  Doing the early game this way would put Chaz and Rika a level higher vs Zio, without losing much time.  Gryz, to an extent, can also miss out on some XP gains, namely the Ladea Tower.  He rarely survives a single target Zio attack anyways, and he's not a big damage contributor.  Of course, he is essential for slug grinding so he will gain some.  Would I be insane to kill him off in the Sandworm fight?

To the laboratory!!

discoransom

2014-10-23 01:39:16 am

TL/DR: I am definitely killing off Alys, Hahn, Gryz and Demi in multiple fights. It is WAY better. This means my route is obsolete, but it is still basically the same route. I get much more XP for the main characters and not lose any time (possibly even a little faster). There will now have to be only two slug grinding sessions instead of three. Some of the details below:

-Run as usual until Bio Plant, with one tweak: 245+ XP needs to be gained with Rune on the way to Tonoe (3 fights, making this segment a little harder)

-Let Alys and Hahn die while running through Bio Plant (Make good use of those unwanted encounters!)

-Run as usual through Wreckage, then level up Gryz/Chaz/Rika on Slugs (6 fights)

-Do Sandworm fight, letting Alys, Hahn, and Gryz die (this is tricky but doable, making the Worm fight much harder)

-Level up everybody on Slugs (8 fights)

-Kill Juza, letting Alys, Hahn and Gryz die (this is not terribly difficult, just have to have good timing)

After Ladea Tower I can go straight to Zio, as Rika is level 17 and Chaz is 16, with Rune still 19. Demi is 12 and Gryz is like 10?. I only fought Zio twice with this setup (one win one loss), but it felt very reasonable, certainly no harder than the way I was fighting Zio before. Difference is that I only get one Medic Power. I think it's okay though. The plan is still to power-level Rune on Zio. If I don't, he will not have NaFoi for Lashiec, and he really needs that spell. Also the levels help for PD casting Megid.

TL/DR: I am definitely killing off Alys, Hahn, Gryz and Demi in multiple fights.  It is WAY better.  This means my route is obsolete, but it is still basically the same route.  I get much more XP for the main characters and not lose any time (possibly even a little faster).  There will now have to be only two slug grinding sessions instead of three.   Some of the details below:

-Run as usual until Bio Plant, with one tweak: 245+ XP needs to be gained with Rune on the way to Tonoe (3 fights, making this segment a little harder)

-Let Alys and Hahn die while running through Bio Plant (Make good use of those unwanted encounters!)

-Run as usual through Wreckage, then level up Gryz/Chaz/Rika on Slugs (6 fights)

-Do Sandworm fight, letting Alys, Hahn, and Gryz die (this is tricky but doable, making the Worm fight much harder)

-Level up everybody on Slugs (8 fights)

-Kill Juza, letting Alys, Hahn and Gryz die (this is not terribly difficult, just have to have good timing)

After Ladea Tower I can go straight to Zio, as Rika is level 17 and Chaz is 16, with Rune still 19.  Demi is 12 and Gryz is like 10?.  I only fought Zio twice with this setup (one win one loss), but it felt very reasonable, certainly no harder than the way I was fighting Zio before.  Difference is that I only get one Medic Power.  I think it's okay though.  The plan is still to power-level Rune on Zio.  If I don't, he will not have NaFoi for Lashiec, and he really needs that spell.  Also the levels help for PD casting Megid.

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-23 09:55:33 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-23 09:44:45 pm

2014-10-23 09:41:30 pm

Krevett, my time up to the start of the Nurvus segment is 48:11. Nurvus + Zio + the cinematic took me between 9 and 10 minutes, I remember from 2012, though I remember that was not a great Zio time. Fissure of Fear takes I believe around 3 minutes from the Spaceport, to get the mission, kill the Slug, and get back to the Spaceport. So that route is really close to one hour for Motavia if I finish recording it. I probably won't finish this recording because of new findings. With my new strategy I can be confident in going under one hour.

But I am struggling to see where the single segment is saving enough time to get 1:08, even without the Fissure of Fear mission. Honestly it blows my mind, very impressive. I've done a lot of things to save time in this run, so I must be overlooking something. Perhaps playing on an emu is slower in some way? My boss battles are not perfect, but they are not terrible by any means. The grinding is also rather fast and efficient, and I have very few random encounters.

I'm fiddling around with Steam's PSIV + Open Broadcaster Software to see if I can get it to work nicely. If I can get good quality I suppose I can try a legit run at this, time permitting. So far my video quality is not good enough, but I'm working on it. I can only assume that since the Steam version is an official release, that it's legit for SDA.

Krevett, my time up to the start of the Nurvus segment is 48:11.  Nurvus + Zio + the cinematic took me between 9 and 10 minutes, I remember from 2012, though I remember that was not a great Zio time.  Fissure of Fear takes I believe around 3 minutes from the Spaceport, to get the mission, kill the Slug, and get back to the Spaceport.  So that route is really close to one hour for Motavia if I finish recording it.  I probably won't finish this recording because of new findings.  With my new strategy I can be confident in going under one hour.

But I am struggling to see where the single segment is saving enough time to get 1:08, even without the Fissure of Fear mission.  Honestly it blows my mind, very impressive.  I've done a lot of things to save time in this run, so I must be overlooking something.  Perhaps playing on an emu is slower in some way?  My boss battles are not perfect, but they are not terrible by any means.  The grinding is also rather fast and efficient, and I have very few random encounters.

I'm fiddling around with Steam's PSIV + Open Broadcaster Software to see if I can get it to work nicely.  If I can get good quality I suppose I can try a legit run at this, time permitting.  So far my video quality is not good enough, but I'm working on it.  I can only assume that since the Steam version is an official release, that it's legit for SDA.

Adgey

2014-10-24 12:44:01 pm

My 1:08 was before fissure of fear so I guess its equivalent to 1:11-1:12. That was on Zio's death as well and not physically leaving the Motovia on the ship, so that may be a couple more minutes. If i recall 1:08 was a decent run but could be improved by a couple minutes with the route I had. I ordered a capture card yesterday and it should get here mid next week. I'm gonna take a day off work and record a motovia run then. My dezolis route is so far off optimal so I wont bother with that (I still haven't completely learned the Garuberk Tower layout yet) and I only did the last third of the game a couple of times before I took a break.

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-25 12:36:04 am

discoransom: 2014-10-25 12:35:39 am

2014-10-24 07:52:39 pm

Awesome, can't wait to see that, good luck with it. The time makes more sense now, though it's still quite good imo. Garuberk's random encounters are the worst.

I'm diving in from the beginning again, trying to eliminate even more purchases and item grabs. Higher stats from higher Chaz and Rika levels mean I might be able to trim some fat.

Edit:

Getting faster at this...I tried a really minimalist run with the emulator. Skipped the Wreckage and Ceramic Gear (picked up the Ceramic Sword in Bio Plant though). Skipped the Laser Slasher in Kadary, skipped the Laser Sword/Meseta/MoonDew in Zio's fort, and skipped the Star Dews in Ladea Tower. Basically I didn't pick up anything that was more than a few steps out of my way. Killed off my secondary characters at each boss, and before one grinding session.

Bought 1 piece of Psy Mail for Chaz and Psy Crown for Rika, plus two Psy Shields for Rune in Termi. Left Rika in Graphite for the Zio fight. What I lost in gear I made up in stats by power-leveling the main characters. The route did not get harder (on Motavia at least), but it did get significantly faster. I kept Chaz and Rika alive vs Zio, which will cost a little of that saved time. Originally I thought this would not work, because Rune needs NaFoi for the Air Castle. But to my surprise, with this setup he hits NaFoi on the same battle where Rika hits Warla, after a 20 fight grinding session in the Weapons Plant. I then pick up Wren's armor and some repair kits, and then go get the Silver Tusk.

I took that game to the start of the Air Castle. I have no money, but I do have good enough gear for Lashiec. Things are really looking up with these improvements.

Awesome, can't wait to see that, good luck with it.  The time makes more sense now, though it's still quite good imo.  Garuberk's random encounters are the worst.

I'm diving in from the beginning again, trying to eliminate even more purchases and item grabs.  Higher stats from higher Chaz and Rika levels mean I might be able to trim some fat.

Edit:

Getting faster at this...I tried a really minimalist run with the emulator.  Skipped the Wreckage and Ceramic Gear (picked up the Ceramic Sword in Bio Plant though).  Skipped the Laser Slasher in Kadary, skipped the Laser Sword/Meseta/MoonDew in Zio's fort, and skipped the Star Dews in Ladea Tower.  Basically I didn't pick up anything that was more than a few steps out of my way.  Killed off my secondary characters at each boss, and before one grinding session.

Bought 1 piece of Psy Mail for Chaz and Psy Crown for Rika, plus two Psy Shields for Rune in Termi.  Left Rika in Graphite for the Zio fight.  What I lost in gear I made up in stats by power-leveling the main characters.  The route did not get harder (on Motavia at least), but it did get significantly faster.  I kept Chaz and Rika alive vs Zio, which will cost a little of that saved time.  Originally I thought this would not work, because Rune needs NaFoi for the Air Castle.  But to my surprise, with this setup he hits NaFoi on the same battle where Rika hits Warla, after a 20 fight grinding session in the Weapons Plant.  I then pick up Wren's armor and some repair kits, and then go get the Silver Tusk.

I took that game to the start of the Air Castle.  I have no money, but I do have good enough gear for Lashiec.  Things are really looking up with these improvements.

discoransom

2014-10-27 09:00:29 pm

I've taken a few days off from playing, but I can't stop thinking about the route.

Ceramic Gear is simply not needed for a segmented run, I am confident. Aside from the Ceramic Sword, of course, acquired with a detour of less than 10 seconds. Rika can finish Motavia in Graphite. The question now is, can Chaz finish Motavia in Titanium? I have a Gryz who needs to die frequently, and I can think of no better way to accomplish this than by giving his armor to Chaz.

Can Chaz survive Dark Force 1 in Titanium gear? I believe so- since he can survive Lashiec in Ceramic. The goal I'm working on now is getting Chaz through until just before the Air Castle in Titanium, and then somehow trying to afford Reflect Mail for both him and Rika, which both makes Lashiec a little higher-percentage, and is quite serviceable against Profound Darkness if Chaz is level 32 or higher.

Now, mind you, if Chaz and Rika are both in Reflect Mail, is Deban going to work well enough that I won't need Warla? The worst part of all my runs is a 20-fight grinding session in the Weapons Plant, before the Air Castle. It's something I have cringed at for a long time, but haven't found a workaround. My energy is now going into these goals:

Leave Chaz in Titanium and Rika in Graphite until just before the Air Castle.

Afford Reflect Mail before fighting Lashiec.

It just dawned on me that because I leave the Air Castle satellite anyway (to save my game after the 'Thouls), why not fit in a quick Reflect Mail shopping trip on Dezolis? I know there are 8k and 4k meseta chests in the first half of the Air Castle, which are not too far out of the way, as well as a few other valuables. Can the 'Thouls be defeated in Graphite and Titanium? Can Lashiec be defeated at a reasonable % before Warla? If the answers to these are yes, then the run gets both faster and more elegant, and of course quite a bit harder.

I've taken a few days off from playing, but I can't stop thinking about the route.

Ceramic Gear is simply not needed for a segmented run, I am confident.  Aside from the Ceramic Sword, of course, acquired with a detour of less than 10 seconds.  Rika can finish Motavia in Graphite.  The question now is, can Chaz finish Motavia in Titanium?  I have a Gryz who needs to die frequently, and I can think of no better way to accomplish this than by giving his armor to Chaz.

Can Chaz survive Dark Force 1 in Titanium gear?  I believe so- since he can survive Lashiec in Ceramic.  The goal I'm working on now is getting Chaz through until just before the Air Castle in Titanium, and then somehow trying to afford Reflect Mail for both him and Rika, which both makes Lashiec a little higher-percentage, and is quite serviceable against Profound Darkness if Chaz is level 32 or higher.

Now, mind you, if Chaz and Rika are both in Reflect Mail, is Deban going to work well enough that I won't need Warla?  The worst part of all my runs is a 20-fight grinding session in the Weapons Plant, before the Air Castle.  It's something I have cringed at for a long time, but haven't found a workaround.  My energy is now going into these goals:

Leave Chaz in Titanium and Rika in Graphite until just before the Air Castle.

Afford Reflect Mail before fighting Lashiec.

It just dawned on me that because I leave the Air Castle satellite anyway (to save my game after the 'Thouls), why not fit in a quick Reflect Mail shopping trip on Dezolis?  I know there are 8k and 4k meseta chests in the first half of the Air Castle, which are not too far out of the way, as well as a few other valuables.  Can the 'Thouls be defeated in Graphite and Titanium?  Can Lashiec be defeated at a reasonable % before Warla?  If the answers to these are yes, then the run gets both faster and more elegant, and of course quite a bit harder.

discoransom

2014-10-29 10:48:49 pm

Having spent the last 2 days making Air Castle attempts in more than a dozen iterations of XP and gear, I'm frustrated and discouraged. Everything I try is a little "clunky" if that makes sense. And of course Lashiec is just a nightmare. I have been underestimating the difficulty of the late bosses when you have no save state to practice.

I've set aside the Dezolis strategy that I have spent so long testing and tweaking, and I'm trying something rather different. I can guarantee that my new strategy is not the fastest, but it is still quite fast. The fastest realistic strategy will always be to fight bosses while under-leveled, under-geared, and getting amazingly lucky (though it stretches the definition of "realistic" to be honest). Instead, I'm planning on getting ahead of the curve before blitzing the last half of the game.

The Motavia strategy is still the same; to max-level Chaz/Rika/Rune with minimal grinding (less than 5 minutes). But I'm changing it up after beating DF1 and getting Kyra. It will probably be a while before I have a new update, but I'm still working hard on this.

Having spent the last 2 days making Air Castle attempts in more than a dozen iterations of XP and gear, I'm frustrated and discouraged.  Everything I try is a little "clunky" if that makes sense.  And of course Lashiec is just a nightmare.  I have been underestimating the difficulty of the late bosses when you have no save state to practice.

I've set aside the Dezolis strategy that I have spent so long testing and tweaking, and I'm trying something rather different.  I can guarantee that my new strategy is not the fastest, but it is still quite fast.  The fastest realistic strategy will always be to fight bosses while under-leveled, under-geared, and getting amazingly lucky (though it stretches the definition of "realistic" to be honest).  Instead, I'm planning on getting ahead of the curve before blitzing the last half of the game.

The Motavia strategy is still the same; to max-level Chaz/Rika/Rune with minimal grinding (less than 5 minutes).  But I'm changing it up after beating DF1 and getting Kyra.  It will probably be a while before I have a new update, but I'm still working hard on this.

krevett

2014-10-30 05:04:19 am

I understand your frustration, Air castle is a large dungeon and of course without save state dying at the end of it means having to restart the whole thing! The fastest strategy is what you described but the fastest "realistic" strategy will probably be to find a good mix of time spent for grinding/upgrading equipment and being able to reliably beat the bad guy without having to restart the game a hundred of time otherwise you'll probably get discouraged!
Are you now practicing with the steam version?

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-30 08:20:16 am

discoransom: 2014-10-30 08:18:29 am

2014-10-30 08:17:06 am

Still practicing on emulator, but I've played through the game on Steam a couple times, and I believe it's identical to the console for gameplay. It could be little faster or slower for technical reasons, but that's not something I would notice.

Something I found last night which might be useful to somebody, is that Kyra can easily solo the 'Thouls at her initial level, but only if she is holding one Reflect Shield and one Plasma Barrier. Wren casts Barrier, Rika casts Saner, and then everybody unloads with multi-target until the rest of the party is dead. The Saner cast is to keep Kyra fast- you want her eating the combo attack and not the single target attacks that happen when the 'Thouls outspeed her. As long as Rika gets in one Disrupt (Silver Tusk + Geno Claw does massive damage here) then Kyra's Hewn and Gra finish them off. The combo attack from the 'Thouls deals just 1 damage to her. It's a quick way to get 22k XP for her. I was trying that as part of a low level AC strategy but it didn't work in the end.

My only discouragement is that a strategy I have spent so long perfecting is not going to work. Everything in a speed run revolves around the Air Castle, so everything I did on Dezoli was to prepare for it. Thankfully my Motavia strategy is still good. I do still think Garuberk Tower is harder than the Air Castle in a segmented run, but I'm trying to take that into account now.

Have you seen any of the 100% RTA posted back on page 3 of this thread? It's close to six hours but I think it proves that under 5 hours is totally possible in a single segment. Maybe 4 1/2. The strategies this guy used look somewhat safe but also nowhere close to optimized. That should be encouraging to single segment fans.

Still practicing on emulator, but I've played through the game on Steam a couple times, and I believe it's identical to the console for gameplay.  It could be little faster or slower for technical reasons, but that's not something I would notice.

Something I found last night which might be useful to somebody, is that Kyra can easily solo the 'Thouls at her initial level, but only if she is holding one Reflect Shield and one Plasma Barrier.  Wren casts Barrier, Rika casts Saner, and then everybody unloads with multi-target until the rest of the party is dead.  The Saner cast is to keep Kyra fast- you want her eating the combo attack and not the single target attacks that happen when the 'Thouls outspeed her.  As long as Rika gets in one Disrupt (Silver Tusk + Geno Claw does massive damage here) then Kyra's Hewn and Gra finish them off.  The combo attack from the 'Thouls deals just 1 damage to her.  It's a quick way to get 22k XP for her.  I was trying that as part of a low level AC strategy but it didn't work in the end.

My only discouragement is that a strategy I have spent so long perfecting is not going to work.  Everything in a speed run revolves around the Air Castle, so everything I did on Dezoli was to prepare for it.  Thankfully my Motavia strategy is still good.  I do still think Garuberk Tower is harder than the Air Castle in a segmented run, but I'm trying to take that into account now.

Have you seen any of the 100% RTA posted back on page 3 of this thread?  It's close to six hours but I think it proves that under 5 hours is totally possible in a single segment.  Maybe 4 1/2.  The strategies this guy used look somewhat safe but also nowhere close to optimized.  That should be encouraging to single segment fans.

Adgey

Edit history:

Adgey: 2014-10-30 12:26:17 pm

2014-10-30 12:25:17 pm

I remember saying 3:10 would be good for single segment. That might be optimistic though. I got a 1:10 motovia (zios death) a couple of days ago that hade a ton of mistakes in it. 1:05 Zio would be good. I also finally got my capture card yesterday so I can finally record next time I play. I'll try and record a run today.

discoransom

2014-10-30 01:32:18 pm

Congrats on the 1:10. I don't know how that compares to segmented the way I'm running Motavia now, but it's only 15 minutes slower than the segmented route I was working on last week. Good luck with the recording!

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-31 11:49:37 am

2014-10-31 11:49:14 am

Route I'm working now is to go super-minimal on Motavia (Chaz in Titanium until just before Lashiec) and then grind Sand Worms as soon as I get Kyra. This takes the place of grinding on Dezolis and any other lategame grinding, so there will in theory only be 3 grinding sessions. Total of 14 Slugs (6, then 8) in the Passageway to Kadary , and approximately 24 Sandworms later. This made Lashiec, DF2 & DF3, and the Rykros bosses very manageable. I only had to use 3 Star Dews on DF3, and zero on Lashiec and DF2, which is pretty good at these levels. And the extra level or two for those bosses makes lots of macros possible where they were not possible before (though DF3 may be impossible to fully Macro). I still go into the Weapons Plant on Dezolis for Wren's Elast Gear (but not the gun or the burstroc), because he's too fragile in his initial gear. And the Silver Tusk is also grabbed, because it is such a good weapon on its own against evil bosses.

The grinding in total would be about 20 minutes I think. There is still lots of work to do logistically toward the end, but hopefully this is the last major route overhaul. Any changes from here on out would take place after arriving on Rykros, so the first couple hours should be set in stone now.

Route I'm working now is to go super-minimal on Motavia (Chaz in Titanium until just before Lashiec) and then grind Sand Worms as soon as I get Kyra.  This takes the place of grinding on Dezolis and any other lategame grinding, so there will in theory only be 3 grinding sessions.  Total of 14 Slugs (6, then 8) in the Passageway to Kadary , and approximately 24 Sandworms later.  This made Lashiec, DF2 & DF3, and the Rykros bosses very manageable.  I only had to use 3 Star Dews on DF3, and zero on Lashiec and DF2, which is pretty good at these levels.  And the extra level or two for those bosses makes lots of macros possible where they were not possible before (though DF3 may be impossible to fully Macro).  I still go into the Weapons Plant on Dezolis for Wren's Elast Gear (but not the gun or the burstroc), because he's too fragile in his initial gear.  And the Silver Tusk is also grabbed, because it is such a good weapon on its own against evil bosses.

The grinding in total would be about 20 minutes I think.  There is still lots of work to do logistically toward the end, but hopefully this is the last major route overhaul.  Any changes from here on out would take place after arriving on Rykros, so the first couple hours should be set in stone now.

Adgey

2014-11-01 03:30:11 am

I recorded a 1:15 Zio today(I died just before finishing him) with really bad luck throughout the entire run. I don't think I'll bother uploading it cuz it had so many mistakes in it and bad luck in it. I'll upload the first sub 1:10 I get. I made a couple small improvements to the route I had as well.

discoransom

2014-11-01 11:53:11 am

Understandable that you wouldn't want to upload runs with mistakes or bad luck, though mistakes and bad luck are just part of the process. If you want any feedback or people to bounce ideas around with, anything within 10-15 minutes of your goal would work fine for that imo. Either way, continued good luck.

Adgey

2014-11-01 07:13:44 pm

I uploaded it here

By the way do you think its possible to grind sand worms in a single segment? Haven't really tried it yet.

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-11-01 09:13:53 pm

2014-11-01 09:11:52 pm

Nice, I see you've put a lot of thought into the route. And you have some seriously fast fingers. Even if your menu play was bad at times, it's seriously good overall.

I liked your use of the wood cane/tri blaster macro for grinding, and that it carried over to the Sandworm. You got really unlucky in all of your grinding sessions (Gryz y u no crash?!) but I think your approach to them is good and maybe just straight optimal. With Vol backup, the slugs are quite viable. Do you think all of the shield purchases are necessary? I wonder if grabbing the Titan Crown in Tonoe Basement (or no crown at all) would be preferable to grabbing the Graphite Crown in Hell, a.k.a. the Bio Plant.

I didn't notice how close you were to an extra level for Rika. Is there any way of getting her HP up a touch before Zio? I see she can be one-shotted right at the end for a real heartbreaker. With so much game left to play, and a possibly disproportionate risk at Zio, it may be hard to see Dezolis with any regularity. I'm sure I'll have more questions and observations on a second viewing, but my first impression is that you have a really good route, you're a very strong player, and it's certainly faster than I thought possible.

Sandworms are probably not viable for grinding in single segment. I tested that for a few minutes earlier today. The reason I'm able to grind them at level 20 is all about the surprise attack. Just like with the slugs, in single segment you can reliably kill off some number of enemies and trigger an automatic merge (worm puberty?). But you won't have the element of surprise often, and Earthquake is essentially a party wipe. I can always get off a couple of Blizzard combos so the worm dies before it can act, but your Sandworms would be acting at least once, and Earthquake is rather common. The also seem to be immune to instant death or paralysis-type moves. At any mid-Dezolis levels, the Weapons Plant or the Myst Vale are surely more reliable options. And for super lategame grinding, Blood Witches and the high-level Shadowblade-type guys, along with CrimnHeads are quite good XP and viable for single seg.

Nice, I see you've put a lot of thought into the route.  And you have some seriously fast fingers.  Even if your menu play was bad at times, it's seriously good overall.

I liked your use of the wood cane/tri blaster macro for grinding, and that it carried over to the Sandworm.  You got really unlucky in all of your grinding sessions (Gryz y u no crash?!) but I think your approach to them is good and maybe just straight optimal.  With Vol backup, the slugs are quite viable.  Do you think all of the shield purchases are necessary?  I wonder if grabbing the Titan Crown in Tonoe Basement (or no crown at all) would be preferable to grabbing the Graphite Crown in Hell, a.k.a. the Bio Plant.

I didn't notice how close you were to an extra level for Rika.  Is there any way of getting her HP up a touch before Zio?  I see she can be one-shotted right at the end for a real heartbreaker.  With so much game left to play, and a possibly disproportionate risk at Zio, it may be hard to see Dezolis with any regularity.  I'm sure I'll have more questions and observations on a second viewing, but my first impression is that you have a really good route, you're a very strong player, and it's certainly faster than I thought possible.

Sandworms are probably not viable for grinding in single segment.  I tested that for a few minutes earlier today.  The reason I'm able to grind them at level 20 is all about the surprise attack.  Just like with the slugs, in single segment you can reliably kill off some number of enemies and trigger an automatic merge (worm puberty?).  But you won't have the element of surprise often, and Earthquake is essentially a party wipe.  I can always get off a couple of Blizzard combos so the worm dies before it can act, but your Sandworms would be acting at least once, and Earthquake is rather common.  The also seem to be immune to instant death or paralysis-type moves.  At any mid-Dezolis levels, the Weapons Plant or the Myst Vale are surely more reliable options.  And for super lategame grinding, Blood Witches and the high-level Shadowblade-type guys, along with CrimnHeads are quite good XP and viable for single seg.

Adgey

Edit history:

Adgey: 2014-11-02 01:46:26 am

2014-11-01 09:47:26 pm

Hey man thanks for the feedback and kind words. It's actually pretty rare for rika to die like that on Zio. With the keep rune and rika alive strat ive been using it works about 70-75% of the time. Which I think is acceptable for a single segment run. So I think I'll keep doing that as long as it has a high success rate.

The reason I get all those shields is because it makes it significantly more likely that'll be able to grind a few battles in the bio plant, which saves about 5 minutes of grinding in wrekage Without them hahn and chaz can get 1 shotted. The macros I use in passageway usually work out a lot better, every 4 slug fight went horrible and the slugs kept attacking before i killed two of them which rarely happens, and Gryz refused to land crash the entire run lol.

edit: I got a 1:07 zio kill, ill upload it tomorrow. im done practicing motovia now. moving on to dezolis next.

krevett

2014-11-02 03:07:16 am

I confirm discor comment for grinding on Sandworm in a single-segment run, it's not viable they would kill most of your runs... For a first recording it's rather good, you really had no luck with the grinding parts and random encounters (especially in the beginning of the game) as well as the crash "curse" that was on you! There's also a bit of thinking sometime when menuing but we can't blame you for that things do not always go as planned and single-segment requires improvisation. It's interesting to see how the strategy change from a segmented (equipment) to keep you alive.
What is your version of the game for the run?

Congrats for your 1:07 record!

discoransom

2014-11-02 02:10:59 pm

Adgey- when your characters level up, I notice you zip through the level-up scrolling very quickly. Are you just mashing 'B' there or do you do that another way?

Here's where the segmented is at now. I have a route all the way through the game, controlling meseta and XP gains all the way. Recording will take awhile since October was my big month of off-time. But I'm happy that my route is complete. Just need to run through the game to verify all of the meseta/XP/gear changes, and make sure they match my save states. Then practice on the bosses is going to take some time, to macro as much of this game as possible. I haven't counted, but there are about 100 segments I think. Some take just an hour of attempts while others might take a dozen hours or more.

On a side note, I'm thinking of getting a new PC controller for this game. I'm currently using a bottom-of-the-line Logitech, and while I like the button setup, the left joystick and D-Pad are both too loose and slow for menu play. Any recommendations?

Adgey- when your characters level up, I notice you zip through the level-up scrolling very quickly.  Are you just mashing 'B' there or do you do that another way?

Here's where the segmented is at now.  I have a route all the way through the game, controlling meseta and XP gains all the way.  Recording will take awhile since October was my big month of off-time.  But I'm happy that my route is complete.  Just need to run through the game to verify all of the meseta/XP/gear changes, and make sure they match my save states.  Then practice on the bosses is going to take some time, to macro as much of this game as possible.  I haven't counted, but there are about 100 segments I think.  Some take just an hour of attempts while others might take a dozen hours or more.

On a side note, I'm thinking of getting a new PC controller for this game.  I'm currently using a bottom-of-the-line Logitech, and while I like the button setup, the left joystick and D-Pad are both too loose and slow for menu play.  Any recommendations?

krevett

2014-11-02 02:53:50 pm

For the pad I play with a ps3 gamepad it works well for many games (you need a program to configure the pad it's named motioninjoy)

Adgey

2014-11-02 04:58:49 pm

I uploaded 1:07 zio death, much cleaner run.

I play the PS3 version of the game on Sega Mega Drive classics. Might be called Genesis Classics where you are. I just mash x and o alternately to skip the leveling text.