Phantasy Star IV

2014-09-30 11:19:45 am

What would be your segment planning Discor? There are quite a lot in the above videos, would you reduce the number of saves?

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-09-30 12:53:36 pm

discoransom: 2014-09-30 12:47:52 pm

2014-09-30 12:45:15 pm

Quote from krevett:

What would be your segment planning Discor? There are quite a lot in the above videos, would you reduce the number of saves?

I think tons of segments are required. Take for instance what could be segment 2. Walking all the way into and through Birth Valley, and then to find Rune without a single encounter. It would look great to do that as one segment, but it would cost the runner a great deal of sanity, and saves only 3-4 seconds. For me, it is one segment walking to Birth Valley, another segment walking through the Valley, and a third segment walking to Rune.

Many parts of the run are walking with no encounters to the start of a dungeon- and the dungeons must also be done with very few encounters. So splitting the walking plus the dungeon run into 2 different segments seems essential. Let's say your walk in the overworld succeeds once in 20 tries- which is totally reasonable and doesn't take long. But if your run through a dungeon takes 50 tries (which is pretty good for most of these dungeons), then combining them into one segment will take 1000 attempts instead of 70.

Time management is so important to avoid burnout. I don't think the aesthetic appeal or the very small amounts of time saved by combining low-percentage segments (and every segment is low-percentage) is worth it. One save and reload costs less time than running away from 1 unwanted enemy encounter.

[quote="krevett"]What would be your segment planning Discor? There are quite a lot in the above videos, would you reduce the number of saves?[/quote]

I think tons of segments are required.  Take for instance what could be segment 2.  Walking all the way into and through Birth Valley, and then to find Rune without a single encounter.  It would look great to do that as one segment, but it would cost the runner a great deal of sanity, and saves only 3-4 seconds.  For me, it is one segment walking to Birth Valley, another segment walking through the Valley, and a third segment walking to Rune.

Many parts of the run are walking with no encounters to the start of a dungeon- and the dungeons must also be done with very few encounters.  So splitting the walking plus the dungeon run into 2 different segments seems essential.  Let's say your walk in the overworld succeeds once in 20 tries- which is totally reasonable and doesn't take long.  But if your run through a dungeon takes 50 tries (which is pretty good for most of these dungeons), then combining them into one segment will take 1000 attempts instead of 70.

Time management is so important to avoid burnout.  I don't think the aesthetic appeal or the very small amounts of time saved by combining low-percentage segments (and every segment is low-percentage) is worth it.  One save and reload costs less time than running away from 1 unwanted enemy encounter.

discoransom

2014-09-30 10:57:58 pm

Did some more work on the early game tonight. Got a perfect Earthlocked Igglanova fight (only one casting of Earth), so I know it's doable now.

Using save states, I pushed two slightly different games to the Sandworm fight. In one game I ran straight to the Passageway to Kadary to level up on slugs, and in the other game I fought Sand Newts with Rune's GRA before leveling up later on slugs.

The only items I pick up are robbing Rune of his gear in Tonoe, 2xTelepipe and 2xEscapipe. And the Ceramic Sword in the BioPlant because it's very convenient to do so.

The result was that without any grinding using Rune against Sand Newts, the characters end up on the same level, but short by 400 meseta (No Rune grinding=3600 + Rune's gear still in inventory, Rune grinding=4000 + Rune's gear). Chaz/Hahn are at level 7 and the rest are at level 8 after XP grinding on slugs in both runs.

The Sandworm fight is then doable without purchasing any Ceramic stuff. It just requires a lot of luck because both Chaz and Alys get one-shotted (and of course so does Hahn). Gryz can take a hit, and Rika can often take 2 hits. I don't yet know who I want to kill off in the Sandworm fight, if anybody. Juza is exceedingly difficult and I may want all party members to have the benefit of the Sandworm xp.

So when to get Ceramic? How much? Can it possibly be skipped? I'm 99% sure I'll not fight at all with Rune on the way to Tonoe. I'm also 99% sure that grinding on the slugs is correct. That's it for tonight.

Did some more work on the early game tonight.  Got a perfect Earthlocked Igglanova fight (only one casting of Earth), so I know it's doable now.

Using save states, I pushed two slightly different games to the Sandworm fight.  In one game I ran straight to the Passageway to Kadary to level up on slugs, and in the other game I fought Sand Newts with Rune's GRA before leveling up later on slugs.

The only items I pick up are robbing Rune of his gear in Tonoe, 2xTelepipe and 2xEscapipe.  And the Ceramic Sword in the BioPlant because it's very convenient to do so.

The result was that without any grinding using Rune against Sand Newts, the characters end up on the same level, but short by 400 meseta (No Rune grinding=3600 + Rune's gear still in inventory, Rune grinding=4000 + Rune's gear).  Chaz/Hahn are at level 7 and the rest are at level 8 after XP grinding on slugs in both runs.

The Sandworm fight is then doable without purchasing any Ceramic stuff.  It just requires a lot of luck because both Chaz and Alys get one-shotted (and of course so does Hahn).  Gryz can take a hit, and Rika can often take 2 hits.  I don't yet know who I want to kill off in the Sandworm fight, if anybody.  Juza is exceedingly difficult and I may want all party members to have the benefit of the Sandworm xp.

So when to get Ceramic?  How much?  Can it possibly be skipped?  I'm 99% sure I'll not fight at all with Rune on the way to Tonoe.  I'm also 99% sure that grinding on the slugs is correct.  That's it for tonight.

discoransom

2014-10-02 11:10:01 pm

Still working, but the gear choices are making my head spin. I'm confident in a few item pick-ups that are useful. Ceramic Sword is a no-brainer. 500 Meseta chest in the Tonoe basement is probably not fast enough to pay for itself compared to later parts of the game, but picking up that chest may be an essential part of a fast route where gear is purchased. The Ceramic Gear in the Wreckage is too valuable to pass up. Some of it is equipped for a faster Sandworm fight, and there is a convenient meseta chest too. The Laser Sword and the Meseta chest down the nearby stairs in Zio's Fort are also very cost-efficient. I think the Laser Barrier in the Fort is also a good speculative pickup, because it can be equipped to Rune, probably until the end of the game? It costs about 40 (?) seconds to grab, which sucks, but if it is truly an end-game item, it would likely be worth it. I need to experiment with the Zio fight to see how well Rune can survive with just one shield. I'd love to save the time and meseta by not purchasing psy shields. Also the 2 Star Dews in Ladea Tower cost about 1:30 total. I believe they are very much worth picking up as they will be used much later. At 10,000 each, it's not cost-efficient to purchase them. I'm operating under the assumption that some number of Dews must be purchased for the endgame.

Concerning money, at the end of the game, you can gain a lot of money by looting each possible 5th party member before the PD fight. You may fly to Dezolis and trade those in for more Dew items. Not sure just how efficient that is, but it's worth considering. Unfortunately, anything worth considering for the final boss will probably affect your actions hours earlier on Motavia...hehehe

Concerning the Plate System, I just don't know. It costs more than 3 minutes to pick up everything, but Demi is definitely a liability in the Zio fight without the upgrades. The Laser Axe for Gryz is also quite helpful, because the Zio fight is razor-close at low levels.

I suppose that by controlling the meseta gains, I could do some math for various gear setups to get off of Motavia. I hate math! The one hour goal for leaving the planet (which includes the Fissure of Fear mission) still looks good to shoot for.

Regarding early XP gains, I can get approximately 1600/minute per party member in the slug cave above Aeido without going mentally insane with resets. The first time you get there, you have 6 castings of Gryz's Crash. The strat is to encounter 2 small slugs, and macro Crash first. The slugs will merge before Gryz can attack. Not sure how long his agility stays low enough to guarantee this. After beating the Sandworm, you should have 9 casts available to use after staying the night at Mile. I believe that since Zio requires a significantly higher level to defeat than Gy L, this should be taken advantage of. If somebody has a better suggestion, I'd love to hear it. A possible XP route would grind the slugs x 6 (having used one on Igglanova 2), kill the worm, grind the slugs x 9, go to Aeido, collect reward, swap gear, rest at Alys' house, and then grind x 9 on the way to Kadary. That's 9600 xp for everyone in about 6 minutes. Note that if you want to continue grinding this way beyond 24 fights, you become less efficient, as you must rest to refill Gryz on Crash. I don't know how big of a ding that is. You might also grind after defeating Gy L. Not sure how many castings of Crash Gryz will have by then. How does that compare to Nurvus grinding? Something to check out.

Okay that's all the rambling for tonight.

Still working, but the gear choices are making my head spin.  I'm confident in a few item pick-ups that are useful.  Ceramic Sword is a no-brainer.  500 Meseta chest in the Tonoe basement is probably not fast enough to pay for itself compared to later parts of the game, but picking up that chest may be an essential part of a fast route where gear is purchased.  The Ceramic Gear in the Wreckage is too valuable to pass up.  Some of it is equipped for a faster Sandworm fight, and there is a convenient meseta chest too.  The Laser Sword and the Meseta chest down the nearby stairs in Zio's Fort are also very cost-efficient.  I think the Laser Barrier in the Fort is also a good speculative pickup, because it can be equipped to Rune, probably until the end of the game?  It costs about 40 (?) seconds to grab, which sucks, but if it is truly an end-game item, it would likely be worth it.  I need to experiment with the Zio fight to see how well Rune can survive with just one shield.  I'd love to save the time and meseta by not purchasing psy shields.  Also the 2 Star Dews in Ladea Tower cost about 1:30 total.  I believe they are very much worth picking up as they will be used much later.  At 10,000 each, it's not cost-efficient to purchase them.  I'm operating under the assumption that some number of Dews must be purchased for the endgame.

Concerning money, at the end of the game, you can gain a lot of money by looting each possible 5th party member before the PD fight.  You may fly to Dezolis and trade those in for more Dew items.  Not sure just how efficient that is, but it's worth considering.  Unfortunately, anything worth considering for the final boss will probably affect your actions hours earlier on Motavia...hehehe

Concerning the Plate System, I just don't know.  It costs more than 3 minutes to pick up everything, but Demi is definitely a liability in the Zio fight without the upgrades.  The Laser Axe for Gryz is also quite helpful, because the Zio fight is razor-close at low levels.

I suppose that by controlling the meseta gains, I could do some math for various gear setups to get off of Motavia.  I hate math!  The one hour goal for leaving the planet (which includes the Fissure of Fear mission) still looks good to shoot for.

Regarding early XP gains, I can get approximately 1600/minute per party member in the slug cave above Aeido without going mentally insane with resets.  The first time you get there, you have 6 castings of Gryz's Crash.  The strat is to encounter 2 small slugs, and macro Crash first.  The slugs will merge before Gryz can attack.  Not sure how long his agility stays low enough to guarantee this.  After beating the Sandworm, you should have 9 casts available to use after staying the night at Mile.  I believe that since Zio requires a significantly higher level to defeat than Gy L, this should be taken advantage of.  If somebody has a better suggestion, I'd love to hear it.  A possible XP route would grind the slugs x 6 (having used one on Igglanova 2), kill the worm, grind the slugs x 9, go to Aeido, collect reward, swap gear, rest at Alys' house, and then grind x 9 on the way to Kadary.  That's 9600 xp for everyone in about 6 minutes.  Note that if you want to continue grinding this way beyond 24 fights, you become less efficient, as you must rest to refill Gryz on Crash.  I don't know how big of a ding that is.  You might also grind after defeating Gy L.  Not sure how many castings of Crash Gryz will have by then.  How does that compare to Nurvus grinding?  Something to check out.

Okay that's all the rambling for tonight.

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-02 11:56:11 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-02 11:55:34 pm

2014-10-02 11:48:55 pm

Just found a serious head-scratcher.

On an old save, I met Rune in Ladea at levels 12,12,10,12 (Chaz @ 10). Rune was level 18.

On a new save, I met Rune in Ladea at levels 12,12,11,12 (Chaz @ 11). Rune was level 17 only!

What on earth could be happening here? I gained more XP while Rune was away on this current save, but he is 8800XP short of level 18. This is very important because he learns GiWat at 18, which helps a TON in the Gy L fight in Ladea Tower, an extra ~70 damage per round.

So is a returning party member's XP randomized or triggered by something I am unaware of? It cannot be based just on the XP gain of other party members while Rune is away. This is a potential problem, or maybe even an exploit?

The only difference between the two saves is that in the old save, Rune fought with my party on the way to Tonoe, and the other members of the party all gained some levels. I'd like to find out exactly what causes him to be 18, because that is a pretty big deal.

krevett

Edit history:

krevett: 2014-10-03 01:24:41 am

krevett: 2014-10-03 01:23:42 am

krevett: 2014-10-03 01:18:36 am

2014-10-03 01:14:58 am

I'm just suprised like you! I always thought that party members who leaved gain the same amount of XP that your party gained during the time he was away...

Edit: I found this thread
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/563334-phantasy-star-iv/45735990?page=1

During the sandworm fight did you have more characters alive at the end of the battle for your new save?

discoransom

2014-10-03 09:23:10 am

Thanks, that's how I thought it worked, but maybe I found an exception.

In my new save, I had everybody alive at the end of the sandworm fight. However I don't think this is the problem. When I found Rune on my new save in Ladea, he had gained 0 XP. He was still at the start of level 17, the same XP as when I meet him at the start of the game. So I think one of two things happened.

1. My use of emulator save states caused a glitch, or

2. You must gain at least 1 XP with Rune while he is in your party (or some other condition)

I'll test this soon and hopefully figure it out.

krevett

2014-10-03 09:41:56 am

I think it's the fact that you gained no XP with Rune that caused this so 2. is probably the reason Wink

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-03 08:25:08 pm

2014-10-03 03:45:26 pm

I need to do a run to confirm it. Which is convenient, because I'm doing a run to track Meseta and re-evaluate my purchases. I may be getting double Laser Barrier for Rune instead of Psy Shields. So I fought one pack of Sand Newts with Rune on the way to Tonoe. I'm really hoping that is enough to make him appear at level 18 inside of Ladea.

I should have a Motavia route optimized soon. It will definitely be faster than what I was doing 2 years ago, though the route is similar. I don't think it will be under an hour, but I'll try.

Edit: Confirmed Rune rejoins the party at level 18 if you gain XP with him, and rejoins at level 17 if you do not gain XP with him.

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-04 01:18:50 am

discoransom: 2014-10-04 12:55:19 am

2014-10-04 12:54:30 am

Here is a Motavia route, in detail. I don't have a completion time for this route yet, and you could certainly go faster with a more minimalist approach. But it's solid and only a few segments will drive a runner completely insane.

Segment 1. Opening cinematic, talk to people, set Message/Battle speed and 2 Macros: Alys Vortex, Chaz Earth, Hahn Attack. And Alys Vortex, Chaz & Hahn Attack. Beat Igglanova, leave Piata, save.

Notes: A perfect run will Earthlock Igglanova in one casting, and Hahn will deliver the final blow. For errors, I would allow 1 enemy encounter runaway and 1 extra casting of Earth.

Segment 2. Walk to Mile, enter Mile, exit Mile, walk to Zema. Save.

Notes: No encounters allowed. You must visit Mile to Telepipe there later.

Segment 3. Complete Birth Valley. Save.

Notes: No encounters, no pickups.

Segment 4. Walk to Rune, set Macro: Rune Gra, others attack. Save.

Segment 5. Walk to Krup, enter Krup, exit Krup, walk to Valley Maze. Save.

Notes: You will Ryuka to Krup later for the Soldier Temple.

Segment 6. Walk through Valley Maze. Fight exactly one battle, ideally 4xSand Newts. Walk to Tonoe.

Notes: You must fight once with Rune, so he will be level 18 (GiWat) when you meet him in Ladea Tower.

Segment 7. Unequip everything from Rune, Equip Hahn w/Circlet. Purchase 2xTelepipe and 1xEscapipe. Get Gryz. Save.

Segment 8. Walk through Basement (this one is stressful). Pick up Escapipe and then Telepipe to Zema. Macro Gryz Crash, others attack. Save.

Notes: Be smart and save before entering Zema, because Gryz Crash vs. Iggy is not reliable. You need all 6 remaining Crash.

Segment 9. Liberate Zema, Kill Iggy. Save.

Segment 10. Walk through Bio Plant. Pick up Ceramic Sword. Get Rika. Save.

Notes: This is horrendous. Just bloody awful. I've done it with just 2 runaway encounters, after many dozens of tries.

Segment 11. Walk to Wreckage, save.

Notes: It's an ugly short segment. You may want to combine this with 12.

Segment 12. Walk through Wreckage, pick up all Chests. Escapipe. Save.

Segment 13. Walk to Passageway above Aeido. Save.

Segments 14-18. Kill 5 Big Slugs.

Notes: The only way to do this is to use Gryz Crash when you encounter exactly 2 little slugs. They will always fuse before Gryz attacks at this level. Walk out and save after each fight. This is where all Motavia grinding will take place.

Segment 19. Kill 1 last slug. Walk to Aeido Hunter's Guild. Take Sandworm Mission. Set Macros, Equip Chaz with Ceramic Mail and Sword, Equip Alys with Ceramic Shield. Telepipe to Mile, stay at Inn. Save. Everybody will be at level 7 or 8, high enough for a relatively easy Worm fight.

Notes: I suggest using Tri-Blaster to save time.

Segment 20. Kill Sandworm- can be done with all macros. I hope you saved your Wood Cane! Stay at Inn. Ryuka to Aeido. Walk to Passageway. Save.

Segment 21-28. Kill Slugs. 9 in total, using all of Gryz's Crash.

Segment 29. Kill final Slug, walk to Aeido, Collect reward. Sell all extra gear (hold Wood Cane). Buy Ceramic Mail for Alys and Rika, and Ceramic Helm for Chaz. Ryuka to outside Aeido. Save.

Segment 30. Walk to Kadary, enter Kadary, exit Kadary. Walk to Zio's fort. Save.

Segment 31. Walk to Laser Sword, pick up Meseta nearby downstairs. Walk across to drop down to collect Laser Barrier. Save.

Segment 32. Kill Juza, picking up Laser Claw and equipping on the way. Can be done with all macros. Ideally kill off Alys and Hahn, but this is not so crucial. Unequip Alys and Hahn! (easy to forget).

Segment 33. Get Rover, drive into Molcum(name?). Talk to townsperson to open Plate System. Drive to Plate System. Save.

Segment 34. Pick up Armor and Helm for Demi. Walk through hellish high-encounter area to Laser Axe, Laser Knife, and Laser Barrier. Get Stun Shot. Skip Phono-upgrade. Hinas. Save.

Segment 35. Drive into Termi. Sell extra gear. Purchase Psy Crown for Rika, Psy Mail for Chaz and Rika, 1xPsy Shield (Optional equip for Rika in place of weak Claw). Save.

Segment 36. Drive into Ladea tower. Collect Star Dew. Hinas. Save.

Segment 37. Rejoin Rune, equip gear and set Macros. Rune gets 2x Laser Barrier. Collect Star Dew and Meseta Chest, Frade Mantle. Kill Gy L. Can be done with all Macros.

Notes: Yeah, Ladea Tower is hell. The boss fight can be really tough. He needs to cast a lot of fire spells. My best results have been agro-blitzing him with zero regard for my party's health. GiWat is a HOUSE vs Gy L.

Segment 38. Rune Ryuka to Aeido. Walk to Slug-Grinding Passageway. Save.

Segment 39- Grind until the party reaches the following levels: Rune 19, Rika 15, Chaz 14, Gryz 14, Demi 13. If you have kept everybody alive vs Juza, you will use 9 Gryz Crash. If you killed off Alys and/or Hahn, you will use fewer Crash. At this level, sometimes Crash happens before Fusion. It's frustrating.

Segments Beyond- Nurvus. Maybe collect Demi's Gear. This is the toughest fight yet. It's very possible that only Rune survives (which is probably fine). Be ready to make a lot of attempts and suffer much frustration.

Before leaving Motavia, do the Fissure of Fear for a huge pile of XP.

Possible room for improvement:

Less grinding, lower lever boss fights
Skip Plate System
Skip buying some gear
Skip some chest pickups

Improvements like these will leave you either short on money or long on challenge. I believe quite a lot of improvement is possible, and inevitable if people keep trying. My route is just a start.

So that's a Motavia run. If you have any questions about segments or equipment or levels or money, I should be able to answer them. I may do some work on Dezolis, maybe not, but if I can only offer a solid route through Motavia for people to use or improve upon, have it with my gratitude.

Here is a Motavia route, in detail.  I don't have a completion time for this route yet, and you could certainly go faster with a more minimalist approach.  But it's solid and only a few segments will drive a runner completely insane.

Segment 1.  Opening cinematic, talk to people, set Message/Battle speed and 2 Macros: Alys Vortex, Chaz Earth, Hahn Attack.  And Alys Vortex, Chaz & Hahn Attack.  Beat Igglanova, leave Piata, save.

Notes: A perfect run will Earthlock Igglanova in one casting, and Hahn will deliver the final blow.  For errors, I would allow 1 enemy encounter runaway and 1 extra casting of Earth.

Segment 2.  Walk to Mile, enter Mile, exit Mile, walk to Zema.  Save.

Notes: No encounters allowed.  You must visit Mile to Telepipe there later.

Segment 3.  Complete Birth Valley.  Save.

Notes: No encounters, no pickups.

Segment 4.  Walk to Rune, set Macro: Rune Gra, others attack.  Save.

Segment 5.  Walk to Krup, enter Krup, exit Krup, walk to Valley Maze.  Save.

Notes: You will Ryuka to Krup later for the Soldier Temple.

Segment 6.  Walk through Valley Maze.  Fight exactly one battle, ideally 4xSand Newts.  Walk to Tonoe.

Notes: You must fight once with Rune, so he will be level 18 (GiWat) when you meet him in Ladea Tower.

Segment 7.  Unequip everything from Rune, Equip Hahn w/Circlet.  Purchase 2xTelepipe and 1xEscapipe.  Get Gryz.  Save.

Segment 8.  Walk through Basement (this one is stressful).  Pick up Escapipe and then Telepipe to Zema.  Macro Gryz Crash, others attack.  Save.

Notes: Be smart and save before entering Zema, because Gryz Crash vs. Iggy is not reliable.  You need all 6 remaining Crash.

Segment 9.  Liberate Zema, Kill Iggy.  Save.

Segment 10.  Walk through Bio Plant.  Pick up Ceramic Sword.  Get Rika.  Save.

Notes: This is horrendous.  Just bloody awful.  I've done it with just 2 runaway encounters, after many dozens of tries.

Segment 11.  Walk to Wreckage, save.

Notes: It's an ugly short segment.  You may want to combine this with 12.

Segment 12. Walk through Wreckage, pick up all Chests.  Escapipe.  Save.

Segment 13.  Walk to Passageway above Aeido.  Save.

Segments 14-18.  Kill 5 Big Slugs.

Notes: The only way to do this is to use Gryz Crash when you encounter exactly 2 little slugs.  They will always fuse before Gryz attacks at this level.  Walk out and save after each fight.  This is where all Motavia grinding will take place.

Segment 19.  Kill 1 last slug.  Walk to Aeido Hunter's Guild.  Take Sandworm Mission.  Set Macros, Equip Chaz with Ceramic Mail and Sword, Equip Alys with Ceramic Shield.  Telepipe to Mile, stay at Inn.  Save.  Everybody will be at level 7 or 8, high enough for a relatively easy Worm fight.

Notes: I suggest using Tri-Blaster to save time.

Segment 20.  Kill Sandworm- can be done with all macros.  I hope you saved your Wood Cane!  Stay at Inn.  Ryuka to Aeido.  Walk to Passageway.  Save.

Segment 21-28.  Kill Slugs.  9 in total, using all of Gryz's Crash.

Segment 29.  Kill final Slug, walk to Aeido, Collect reward.  Sell all extra gear (hold Wood Cane).  Buy Ceramic Mail for Alys and Rika, and Ceramic Helm for Chaz.  Ryuka to outside Aeido.  Save.

Segment 30.  Walk to Kadary, enter Kadary, exit Kadary.  Walk to Zio's fort.  Save.

Segment 31.  Walk to Laser Sword, pick up Meseta nearby downstairs.  Walk across to drop down to collect Laser Barrier.  Save.

Segment 32.  Kill Juza, picking up Laser Claw and equipping on the way.  Can be done with all macros.  Ideally kill off Alys and Hahn, but this is not so crucial.  Unequip Alys and Hahn!  (easy to forget).

Segment 33.  Get Rover, drive into Molcum(name?).  Talk to townsperson to open Plate System.  Drive to Plate System.  Save.

Segment 34.  Pick up Armor and Helm for Demi.  Walk through hellish high-encounter area to Laser Axe, Laser Knife, and Laser Barrier.  Get Stun Shot.  Skip Phono-upgrade.  Hinas.  Save.

Segment 35.  Drive into Termi.  Sell extra gear.  Purchase Psy Crown for Rika, Psy Mail for Chaz and Rika, 1xPsy Shield (Optional equip for Rika in place of weak Claw).  Save.

Segment 36.  Drive into Ladea tower.  Collect Star Dew.  Hinas.  Save.

Segment 37.  Rejoin Rune, equip gear and set Macros.  Rune gets 2x Laser Barrier.  Collect Star Dew and Meseta Chest, Frade Mantle.  Kill Gy L.  Can be done with all Macros.

Notes:  Yeah, Ladea Tower is hell.  The boss fight can be really tough.  He needs to cast a lot of fire spells.  My best results have been agro-blitzing him with zero regard for my party's health.  GiWat is a HOUSE vs Gy L.

Segment 38.  Rune Ryuka to Aeido.  Walk to Slug-Grinding Passageway.  Save.

Segment 39-  Grind until the party reaches the following levels: Rune 19, Rika 15, Chaz 14, Gryz 14, Demi 13.  If you have kept everybody alive vs Juza, you will use 9 Gryz Crash.  If you killed off Alys and/or Hahn, you will use fewer Crash.  At this level, sometimes Crash happens before Fusion.  It's frustrating.

Segments Beyond-  Nurvus.  Maybe collect Demi's Gear.  This is the toughest fight yet.  It's very possible that only Rune survives (which is probably fine).  Be ready to make a lot of attempts and suffer much frustration.

Before leaving Motavia, do the Fissure of Fear for a huge pile of XP.

Possible room for improvement:

Less grinding, lower lever boss fights
Skip Plate System
Skip buying some gear
Skip some chest pickups

Improvements like these will leave you either short on money or long on challenge.  I believe quite a lot of improvement is possible, and inevitable if people keep trying.  My route is just a start.

So that's a Motavia run.  If you have any questions about segments or equipment or levels or money, I should be able to answer them.  I may do some work on Dezolis, maybe not, but if I can only offer a solid route through Motavia for people to use or improve upon, have it with my gratitude.

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-04 01:19:25 am

2014-10-04 01:18:42 am

duplicate post

krevett

2014-10-04 01:55:37 am

Love your route so far, I really don't know about plate system but as you said skipping it will let you down on mesetas...

A simple note I think segment 6 and 7 could be the same as the stressful part is segment 6, 7 is only for equipment management so no risk of randomness! And 11, 12 as you note it could also be combined but will add some tries fore sure (even if 11 is short you'll almost always get undesired encounters)

Thanks!

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-04 09:19:08 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-04 09:18:53 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-04 09:17:03 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-04 09:16:35 pm

2014-10-04 09:13:24 pm

Thanks for the input man, glad you like the route.

Dezolis so far has been straightforward. Go right for Dark Force, he's an easy fight and can be beaten with Macro Only. It's easy to kill off Raja as well. Then ditch Raja, grab Kyra. The problem then is getting Kyra to level 29 (Warla) before the Air Castle. It's like 36000XP to gain. My ideas on where to grind efficiently are the Myst Vale. 4x HungryMole and 3x SkyTiara are good XP, and a Star Dew plus the Tusk are there. The other spot is the Weapons Plant. Elast Armor and Gear for Wren are there, and fights vs 4xWiredine or 4xArthropod are great XP.

The advantage of the Myst Vale grinding is that you can sometimes make your attack before the enemies make theirs. The Weapons Plant is a little harder in that respect, but you get more XP per battle.

My instinct is to sequence like this: Drive from Esper to Gumbious, watch the torch get stolen, drive to Weapons Plant, grind with Rune's GiGra (Only if you let everyone else die vs Zio, Rune will have GiGra), pick up Elast Gear+Armor and probably Plasma Launcher, Hinas, Ryuka to Tyler, heal at spaceport, Drive to Myst Vale, grind a bit, grab the Star Dew and Tusk, then it's off to the Air Castle. I may also need to pick up a piece of gear or two, not sure. It may be best to switch the order on the grinding spots. It will require testing and timing each way. I'd like to justify my trip to both places with some grinding though, as I want the Tusk and I want Wren's upgrades.

Thanks for the input man, glad you like the route.

Dezolis so far has been straightforward.  Go right for Dark Force, he's an easy fight and can be beaten with Macro Only.  It's easy to kill off Raja as well.  Then ditch Raja, grab Kyra.  The problem then is getting Kyra to level 29 (Warla) before the Air Castle.  It's like 36000XP to gain.  My ideas on where to grind efficiently are the Myst Vale.  4x HungryMole and 3x SkyTiara are good XP, and a Star Dew plus the Tusk are there.  The other spot is the Weapons Plant.  Elast Armor and Gear for Wren are there, and fights vs 4xWiredine or 4xArthropod are great XP.

The advantage of the Myst Vale grinding is that you can sometimes make your attack before the enemies make theirs.  The Weapons Plant is a little harder in that respect, but you get more XP per battle.

My instinct is to sequence like this: Drive from Esper to Gumbious, watch the torch get stolen, drive to Weapons Plant, grind with Rune's GiGra (Only if you let everyone else die vs Zio, Rune will have GiGra), pick up Elast Gear+Armor and probably Plasma Launcher, Hinas, Ryuka to Tyler, heal at spaceport, Drive to Myst Vale, grind a bit, grab the Star Dew and Tusk, then it's off to the Air Castle.  I may also need to pick up a piece of gear or two, not sure.  It may be best to switch the order on the grinding spots.  It will require testing and timing each way.  I'd like to justify my trip to both places with some grinding though, as I want the Tusk and I want Wren's upgrades.

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-05 12:52:43 am

2014-10-05 12:47:32 am

I'm confident that Arthropods x4 are the best choice for grinding. 1948XP per fight and low HP. They do not spawn often, but nearly always spawn in a group of 4. Using Wren Pulse Laser attack and Kyra Gra (possibly Hewn, can't remember if it's good vs robots) with Kyra holding 1 Psy Shield and the Psy Crown, you will usually kill in one round, and sometimes even outspeed them. Rune also has GiGra, but nearly always goes last in combat. It's going to be a major pain to get those segments done. Rune and Kyra have enough TP to complete the grind to Warla without taking a break to heal at the spaceport.

It will be the same deal as Motavia. 1 fight, then exit the dungeon and save. Not pretty, but I think it's optimal. The Air Castle before getting Warla is exceedingly difficult, though barely possible. I've been down that road in the past, and I won't try it again.

I think the Air Castle definitely needs to be done in two segments. Both are super-low percentage. Barring a miracle, you get better times by leaving the satellite and getting to a save point. Leaving in the ship to a save point adds like a whole minute, which stinks.

I'm confident that Arthropods x4 are the best choice for grinding.  1948XP per fight and low HP.  They do not spawn often, but nearly always spawn in a group of 4.  Using Wren Pulse Laser attack and Kyra Gra (possibly Hewn, can't remember if it's good vs robots) with Kyra holding 1 Psy Shield and the Psy Crown, you will usually kill in one round, and sometimes even outspeed them.  Rune also has GiGra, but nearly always goes last in combat.  It's going to be a major pain to get those segments done.  Rune and Kyra have enough TP to complete the grind to Warla without taking a break to heal at the spaceport.

It will be the same deal as Motavia.  1 fight, then exit the dungeon and save.  Not pretty, but I think it's optimal.  The Air Castle before getting Warla is exceedingly difficult, though barely possible.  I've been down that road in the past, and I won't try it again.

I think the Air Castle definitely needs to be done in two segments.  Both are super-low percentage.  Barring a miracle, you get better times by leaving the satellite and getting to a save point.  Leaving in the ship to a save point adds like a whole minute, which stinks.

krevett

Edit history:

krevett: 2014-10-05 01:39:24 am

2014-10-05 01:35:32 am

I think you're right arthropod are the best time-lost/rewarding fight they only got 120 hp and are worth a bit more than 2400XP each (divided by the number of character alive at the end of course).
To comment on the grinding part at least by doing this (one fight, exit and save) you allow the watcher to skip those grinding parts of the game easily and it will for sure take the less time as you'll be able to select the fight you want to keep!

For air castle, losing a minute exiting and saving will probably be better than trying to one-shot the castle and becoming insane pushing the reset button!!

Edit: I think plasma launcher for Wren is a good bet since it'll be your best weapon until the end vs bosses (in a speedrun of course I don't think you'll be getting the photoneraser Wink

)

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-05 01:43:31 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-05 01:41:52 pm

2014-10-05 01:40:32 pm

Stats/Gear at start of Air Castle. This is the most expensive defensive setup I could afford after grinding and selling.

Wren level 24
Elast Gear
Elast Armor
Plasma Launcher

Kyra level 29
Psy Crown
2xReflect Shield
Reflect Robe

Rika level 25
Silver Crown
Reflect Shield
Silver Tusk
Reflect Mail

Chaz level 23
(will pick up Swift Helm in Castle)
Psy Shield
Reflect Shield
Reflect Mail

Rune level 25
Silver Circlet
2x Laser barrier
Reflect Robe

For damage-dealing Wren has a solid gun, Rune has NaFoi, Chaz has Githu, Rika has Doubleslash and regular attack, and Kyra has Hewn and Gi spells. Chaz will probably run out of TP, and I don't have anything offensive to use as an item. I suppose I could use Wood Cane and have him do the Psycho Wand when Lashiec Reinforces. I only have about 900 meseta left over, so the route is cost-efficient. I don't pan on using any Star or Sol Dews, as I'll need them later. I'll get some Air Castle practice in soon. The 'Thouls will be a piece of cake compared to old Lashy.

At this point I think I've purchased everything I'm going to purchase, so the only shop trip should be to get Star and/or Sol Dews at the end. I may have overlooked something though.

Stats/Gear at start of Air Castle.  This is the most expensive defensive setup I could afford after grinding and selling.

Wren level 24
Elast Gear
Elast Armor
Plasma Launcher

Kyra level 29
Psy Crown
2xReflect Shield
Reflect Robe

Rika level 25
Silver Crown
Reflect Shield
Silver Tusk
Reflect Mail

Chaz level 23
(will pick up Swift Helm in Castle)
Psy Shield
Reflect Shield
Reflect Mail

Rune level 25
Silver Circlet
2x Laser barrier
Reflect Robe

For damage-dealing Wren has a solid gun, Rune has NaFoi, Chaz has Githu, Rika has Doubleslash and regular attack, and Kyra has Hewn and Gi spells.  Chaz will probably run out of TP, and I don't have anything offensive to use as an item.  I suppose I could use Wood Cane and have him do the Psycho Wand when Lashiec Reinforces.  I only have about 900 meseta left over, so the route is cost-efficient.  I don't pan on using any Star or Sol Dews, as I'll need them later.  I'll get some Air Castle practice in soon.  The 'Thouls will be a piece of cake compared to old Lashy.

At this point I think I've purchased everything I'm going to purchase, so the only shop trip should be to get Star and/or Sol Dews at the end.  I may have overlooked something though.

discoransom

2014-10-05 10:38:34 pm

Lashiec ended up being about as difficult as Juza, just with a much lower percentage dungeon run to reach him. Can reasonably keep everyone alive as well.

I bought 2XSilver Shields for Rune and a TornadoDagger for Chaz to itemcast. I could tweak the route a little and afford the Flame Sword, without really going out of my way. It involves an item pickup back in Motavia. I think I'll add that to the route, no testing needed.

Dark Force 2 and 3 were both "easy" but only by using every Star and Sol Dew in my inventory. DF2 in particular is a monster on my resources. The Tower run to reach him is also very brutal. He's about as hard as Lashiec, maybe a little harder. But Macros are going to be even more difficult to employ.

I did a quick bit of grinding (instant death spells on Fract Oozes) at the Soldier's Temple and equipped Rune with Seth's Laconian Circlet. Rika having GiSar seems useful for DF3, though it may not be necessary. Not sure whether to just go right for the boss here and skip getting GiSar, as it's doable. DF 3 is more annoying than difficult, but thankfully you can save just before the fight. That makes it acceptable to try hundreds of times to get an extremely lucky fight.

Lashiec ended up being about as difficult as Juza, just with a much lower percentage dungeon run to reach him.  Can reasonably keep everyone alive as well.

I bought 2XSilver Shields for Rune and a TornadoDagger for Chaz to itemcast.  I could tweak the route a little and afford the Flame Sword, without really going out of my way.  It involves an item pickup back in Motavia.  I think I'll add that to the route, no testing needed.

Dark Force 2 and 3 were both "easy" but only by using every Star and Sol Dew in my inventory.  DF2 in particular is a monster on my resources.  The Tower run to reach him is also very brutal.  He's about as hard as Lashiec, maybe a little harder.  But Macros are going to be even more difficult to employ.

I did a quick bit of grinding (instant death spells on Fract Oozes) at the Soldier's Temple and equipped Rune with Seth's Laconian Circlet.  Rika having GiSar seems useful for DF3, though it may not be necessary.  Not sure whether to just go right for the boss here and skip getting GiSar, as it's doable.  DF 3 is more annoying than difficult, but thankfully you can save just before the fight.  That makes it acceptable to try hundreds of times to get an extremely lucky fight.

krevett

2014-10-06 12:53:42 am

What are your levels before the trip to Rykros with this route? I think that aiming for about 35-38 for profound darkness seems doable but will be very hard (at low level the third form cancel, then megid is a nightmare). Thankfully the last dungeon isn't very long and you can like bio-plant almost go through it without a single encounter.

discoransom

2014-10-06 01:22:40 pm

After killing DF3 I'm at Wren/Chaz/Rune 27, and Rika 29. Both Rykros bosses are totally manageable at that level, though Sa-Lews is tricky. I pick up all the gear in the towers.

After a few immediate runs at PD with Kyra in my party, at Wren/Chaz/Rune 28, Rika 30, and Kyra 31, I can get to the final form pretty reliably (using no star or sol dews), but then I get totally obliterated by Megid.

I don't need to be level 35-38 (You can finish a casual playthroughs at those levels) but I do believe some leveling will be required, and probably a big shopping trip for Dews.

krevett

2014-10-07 12:36:33 am

According to NeoElfBoy, the lowest level he has beaten PD are Kyra 32, Rika 29, Wren 28, Chaz 26, Rune 25, so you're already good but the fight will be very long and punishing. Of course I was talking only of the third form, the two first are simple enough when you've gotten this far Wink

Post 67 on
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/563334-phantasy-star-iv/47833653?page=6

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-07 09:10:36 am

2014-10-07 09:09:02 am

Coincidence, I was studying his thread last night for the final boss.

I see that it is possible at my levels, but the fight is too much healing and death recovery. If I get a few more levels then Chaz can wield a sword, making it quicker. Also Rune can maybe survive Megid more, and help in the fight. This game is incredibly well-balanced so it's hard to find an edge.

I'm going to gain one level at a time and keep testing the boss fight.

krevett

2014-10-07 12:34:35 pm

Yes you must find the right balance between time lost with grinding and the lenght of the final fight! Also Chaz wielding a sword allows you to use crosscut, that may help a bit...

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-07 01:52:33 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-07 01:52:32 pm

2014-10-07 01:50:39 pm

I grinded in Rykros on Dark Witches and Blood Sabers. They are quite good XP. So I am now trying PD at the following levels and equipment:

Wren: 29
Palma Ring
Sonicbuster
Guardarmor

Rika: 32
Mota Ring
Silver Tusk
Guardian Shield
Guardian Mail

Chaz: 30
Algo Ring
Elsydeon
Laconian Mail

Rune: 30
Dezo Ring
Silver Shield
Silver Shield
Guardian Robe

Kyra: 32
Laconian Crown
Reflect Shield
Reflect Shield
Reflect Robe

I can swap Chaz and Rika's Armor to get them both at about 165 Def, which I'll try next. With this setup, I am easily making it to the Third Form and getting in more offense. It's still a crazy difficult fight that requires a ton of luck. But this is the setup I'll continue testing today.

This means Robbing all of the potential companion gear and taking a shopping trip to Dezolis. I end up with 15 Star Dw and 5 Sol Dew. That number is close to correct I think. The shopping trip feels like it takes forever lol. But it all gets done at one shop in Meese, so I'm not running all over the map.

I'll post my progress on PD. This is only playing the best way, not the fastest way. Macros are going to be very tricky for all of the late bosses except De-Vars. Probably take me many days of work to get all that dialed in.

I don't understand the armor stuff very well, so if I'm doing something silly in my setup with regards to resistances, mental power, etc, I would not be surprised Smiley

I grinded in Rykros on Dark Witches and Blood Sabers.  They are quite good XP.  So I am now trying PD at the following levels and equipment:

Wren: 29
Palma Ring
Sonicbuster
Guardarmor

Rika: 32
Mota Ring
Silver Tusk
Guardian Shield
Guardian Mail

Chaz: 30
Algo Ring
Elsydeon
Laconian Mail

Rune: 30
Dezo Ring
Silver Shield
Silver Shield
Guardian Robe

Kyra: 32
Laconian Crown
Reflect Shield
Reflect Shield
Reflect Robe

I can swap Chaz and Rika's Armor to get them both at about 165 Def, which I'll try next.  With this setup, I am easily making it to the Third Form and getting in more offense.  It's still a crazy difficult fight that requires a ton of luck.  But this is the setup I'll continue testing today.

This means Robbing all of the potential companion gear and taking a shopping trip to Dezolis.  I end up with  15 Star Dw and 5 Sol Dew.  That number is close to correct I think.  The shopping trip feels like it takes forever lol.  But it all gets done at one shop in Meese, so I'm not running all over the map.

I'll post my progress on PD.  This is only playing the best way, not the fastest way.  Macros are going to be very tricky for all of the late bosses except De-Vars.  Probably take me many days of work to get all that dialed in.

I don't understand the armor stuff very well, so if I'm doing something silly in my setup with regards to resistances, mental power, etc, I would not be surprised :)

discoransom

Edit history:

discoransom: 2014-10-07 08:27:00 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-07 07:31:11 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-07 07:30:15 pm

discoransom: 2014-10-07 07:29:36 pm

2014-10-07 07:23:09 pm

I'm getting a little tired of being destroyed by PD third form lol. I hate the developers for not making Elsydeon an itemcast.

The newest setup is the same levels as my last post (with grinding segments in Rykros), but with a magic defensive setup instead of an offensive one. Reflect Shields and Silver Shields. Reflect Mail and Reflect Robes.

Flamesword and Mahlay Dagger used instead of Silver Tusk and Elsydeon. The first two forms are still reasonable from a speed POV, and macros will still be useful on the majority of rounds.

This is the most successful setup so far, and it doesn't cost much more than the other setups in terms of time. I still haven't won a fight vs the big boss, but it will happen in time. I need to maybe squeeze out an extra Star Dew or two, by not using them against PD3. That fight is very easy from a speedrun POV, because their is a save point just before the battle. PD2 still eats the Dews up, so I think that will be the toughest fight overall, combined with the run through the Tower. If anything stops somebody from completing this, it will be that dungeon + boss fight. Getting a run with few Dews used is going to be crazy hard. Harder than a good Lashiec run even.

The reason I choose to grind in Rykros rather than another place is that there are only 4 in my party, which boosts the XP by 25% per fight. As far as I can tell, Kyra still benefits fully from this XP.

Kyra has some good casts of Hewn and GiFoi/Flaeli which imo makes her automatically better than Raja.

Please tell me I don't need Psy Shields for Rune and Psy Crown for Kyra for the mental boost btw...that may alter the route significantly...but if the benefits are big, I'll have to consider it.

Note to myself: Work on Macros for: Zio, DF1/2/3, Thouls, Lashiec, De Vars, PD form 2/3

I'm getting a little tired of being destroyed by PD third form lol.  I hate the developers for not making Elsydeon an itemcast.

The newest setup is the same levels as my last post (with grinding segments in Rykros), but with a magic defensive setup instead of an offensive one.  Reflect Shields and Silver Shields.  Reflect Mail and Reflect Robes.

Flamesword and Mahlay Dagger used instead of Silver Tusk and Elsydeon.  The first two forms are still reasonable from a speed POV, and macros will still be useful on the majority of rounds.

This is the most successful setup so far, and it doesn't cost much more than the other setups in terms of time.  I still haven't won a fight vs the big boss, but it will happen in time.  I need to maybe squeeze out an extra Star Dew or two, by not using them against PD3.  That fight is very easy from a speedrun POV, because their is a save point just before the battle.  PD2 still eats the Dews up, so I think that will be the toughest fight overall, combined with the run through the Tower.  If anything stops somebody from completing this, it will be that dungeon + boss fight.  Getting a run with few Dews used is going to be crazy hard.  Harder than a good Lashiec run even.

The reason I choose to grind in Rykros rather than another place is that there are only 4 in my party, which boosts the XP by 25% per fight.  As far as I can tell, Kyra still benefits fully from this XP.

Kyra has some good casts of Hewn and GiFoi/Flaeli which imo makes her automatically better than Raja.

Please tell me I don't need Psy Shields for Rune and Psy Crown for Kyra for the mental boost btw...that may alter the route significantly...but if the benefits are big, I'll have to consider it.

Note to myself: Work on Macros for: Zio, DF1/2/3, Thouls, Lashiec, De Vars, PD form 2/3

discoransom

2014-10-07 08:35:01 pm

On running this game. I don't have a genesis or capture card, and besides I'm not very skilled at improvising in fights, or with quick decisions with the controller and Macros. I probably do not have the time to do it either. I've blocked out some free time this month to work on this, and hopefully I can put up an unofficial TAS video in that time. I hope somebody out there is paying attention or working on this for him/herself, as this game deserves a truly great run by a great gamer. It's one of the few absolute classics that doesn't have a record time. I came back to this game because I saw there was some interest. Here's to that interest growing!