Phantasy Star IV

2015-11-20 08:56:53 pm

So I did a little experimenting with the grinding on Dezo, and I think I've come up with an interesting scenario that could minimize the grinding we have to do. Previously I was leveling Rika up to 27 in the silver tusk cave, however, I think this will no longer be necessary. The obstacles that the Air Castle usually present are that we need Rika to be 28 for Gisar, Rune to be 25 for Nafoi and Chaz to be at least 22 in order to survive anothergate reliably. If we change up the Dark Force 1 fight to allow Chaz to survive and get the 10k exp (along with Rika and Wren still of course), and then kill off Rika as we're progressing through the silver tusk cave, we get can get Chaz and Rune to where they need to be experience wise extremely quickly. However, we still need Rika to get Gisar, but I've thought of something for that as well. Doing the usual "grind on the way" method in the Air Castle, we can get Rika up to 26 and some change pretty easily. What we can do to push her up to 28 before Lashiec is have her get all the exp from the triplets fight. The way to do this is to simply give her the Plasmabarrier and have her kill them with Disrupt. She can do about 450 damage with her 4 charges, so we need to have the other 4 party members do 950 damage to all of them before they die. If you get extremely lucky you'll have everyone live past the first round, and then by spamming an all attack macro you'll simply end up killing everyone off and Rika will get all the exp. However, since these guys are pretty big trolls, this wont happen very often. To combat this you can either do two things, save the Laco Rod and use its special attack to skim off the rest of their hitpoints, or you can have Rika Gires a party member for a couple turns while they unload their multitarget attacks (Rune or Chaz do the most damage with GiGra and Airslash). This gives Rika 22k experience, which is more than enough to take her from 26 to 28.

The biggest problem with less grinding may turn out to be the lack of Meseta when we're shopping in Jut. I don't think its possible to get enough money for Chaz's Laconia Sword naturally as we do now, but I couldnt do any testing using the any% route as the save state I used had already done the guild quests. An alternate strategy might be to grab a Flame Sword and use that for the Air Castle, but you'll have to go back to Jut after Lashiec and trade it in for a Laconia Sword (for both the DFs and Vahal Fort). You could also sell a dew or something I guess, probably not worth doing that though.

Lastly, I've been thinking about revisiting Meese after DF2 in order to do two things: clean out the inventory for the final part of the game (I already do this after DF3), and to perhaps buy some star dews in order to speed up some of the fights in the last half. I'm not sure how much of the inventory can be cleaned up at this point though, so it might not be worth it (we need 16 slots for everything up to the end of the game). If the star dews aren't worth it, it would be best to sell stuff in Zema if the earlier inventory clean up does end up working out at this point.

So I did a little experimenting with the grinding on Dezo, and I think I've come up with an interesting scenario that could minimize the grinding we have to do. Previously I was leveling Rika up to 27 in the silver tusk cave, however, I think this will no longer be necessary. The obstacles that the Air Castle usually present are that we need Rika to be 28 for Gisar, Rune to be 25 for Nafoi and Chaz to be at least 22 in order to survive anothergate reliably. If we change up the Dark Force 1 fight to allow Chaz to survive and get the 10k exp (along with Rika and Wren still of course), and then kill off Rika as we're progressing through the silver tusk cave, we get can get Chaz and Rune to where they need to be experience wise extremely quickly. However, we still need Rika to get Gisar, but I've thought of something for that as well. Doing the usual "grind on the way" method in the Air Castle, we can get Rika up to 26 and some change pretty easily. What we can do to push her up to 28 before Lashiec is have her get all the exp from the triplets fight. The way to do this is to simply give her the Plasmabarrier and have her kill them with Disrupt. She can do about 450 damage with her 4 charges, so we need to have the other 4 party members do 950 damage to all of them before they die. If you get extremely lucky you'll have everyone live past the first round, and then by spamming an all attack macro you'll simply end up killing everyone off and Rika will get all the exp. However, since these guys are pretty big trolls, this wont happen very often. To combat this you can either do two things, save the Laco Rod and use its special attack to skim off the rest of their hitpoints, or you can have Rika Gires a party member for a couple turns while they unload their multitarget attacks (Rune or Chaz do the most damage with GiGra and Airslash). This gives Rika 22k experience, which is more than enough to take her from 26 to 28.

The biggest problem with less grinding may turn out to be the lack of Meseta when we're shopping in Jut. I don't think its possible to get enough money for Chaz's Laconia Sword naturally as we do now, but I couldnt do any testing using the any% route as the save state I used had already done the guild quests. An alternate strategy might be to grab a Flame Sword and use that for the Air Castle, but you'll have to go back to Jut after Lashiec and trade it in for a Laconia Sword (for both the DFs and Vahal Fort). You could also sell a dew or something I guess, probably not worth doing that though.

Lastly, I've been thinking about revisiting Meese after DF2 in order to do two things: clean out the inventory for the final part of the game (I already do this after DF3), and to perhaps buy some star dews in order to speed up some of the fights in the last half. I'm not sure how much of the inventory can be cleaned up at this point though, so it might not be worth it (we need 16 slots for everything up to the end of the game). If the star dews aren't worth it, it would be best to sell stuff in Zema if the earlier inventory clean up does end up working out at this point.

MrStarbird

2015-12-13 08:36:08 am

Leader of Starbirdia!

You've probably seen this already, but I'm going to post it anyway:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/genesis/563334-phantasy-star-iv/faqs/23221

According to the research in this guide, a weaker weapon with an associated factor (elemental weakness for example) will normally always do more damage than a stronger weapon to an enemy with no weakness to the factor.

Because of this, the Flame Sword wouldn't be a bad idea against Lashiec considering it "should" do more damage to him than the Laconian Sword (I estimate by about 25% more or so), so if money is an issue by the time you get to Jut, perhaps making a second trip there after finishing the Air Castle grind would save some time. Also, keep in mind that the Napalm Shot will also do more damage to Lashiec as well with normal attacks, I believe more so than Flare would.

If you have the money and decide to do Weapon Plant/Vahal Fort grinding, perhaps a Thunder Claw would make things a bit faster as well since all enemies in those two places are weak to it.

Also, perhaps you can find this out for me, but would it be feasible to take Hahn's Mahlay Dagger (and perhaps shield since it casts Deban on one character) and use that as an item for somebody on your team who has a low damage output at the end of the game? This could in turn perhaps allow you to take Raja and put Rika into a damage dealing role since the Mahlay Dagger deals a considerable amount of damage that Raja could use during downtime (after he uses all his St. Fire of course, because Profound Darkness is weak to St. Fire and Efess)

Just some ideas to throw out there.

You've probably seen this already, but I'm going to post it anyway:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/genesis/563334-phantasy-star-iv/faqs/23221

According to the research in this guide, a weaker weapon with an associated factor (elemental weakness for example) will normally always do more damage than a stronger weapon to an enemy with no weakness to the factor.

Because of this, the Flame Sword wouldn't be a bad idea against Lashiec considering it "should" do more damage to him than the Laconian Sword (I estimate by about 25% more or so), so if money is an issue by the time you get to Jut, perhaps making a second trip there after finishing the Air Castle grind would save some time. Also, keep in mind that the Napalm Shot will also do more damage to Lashiec as well with normal attacks, I believe more so than Flare would.

If you have the money and decide to do Weapon Plant/Vahal Fort grinding, perhaps a Thunder Claw would make things a bit faster as well since all enemies in those two places are weak to it.

Also, perhaps you can find this out for me, but would it be feasible to take Hahn's Mahlay Dagger (and perhaps shield since it casts Deban on one character) and use that as an item for somebody on your team who has a low damage output at the end of the game? This could in turn perhaps allow you to take Raja and put Rika into a damage dealing role since the Mahlay Dagger deals a considerable amount of damage that Raja could use during downtime (after he uses all his St. Fire of course, because Profound Darkness is weak to St. Fire and Efess)

Just some ideas to throw out there.

Jiseed

2015-12-13 01:57:07 pm

Thanks for the link MrStarbird, I actually hadn't seen that one before. The flame sword certainly does do a lot more than the Laconia Sword to Lashiec, but it turns out I was wrong in thinking there would be a lack of meseta in the altered Dezo route. While the sword makes it a lot easier to push a 7 turn reinforce from Lashiec, I don't think the time spent buying the sword from Meese and then having to revisit Jut after is faster than just grabbing the sword during the big shopping trip despite the potential for saved turns against Lashiec. I could be completely wrong of course. I did some testing on the Napalm Shot, and it does somewhere in the neighbourhood of 10 extra damage compared to flare. That being said, it can also crit, but that means it can also miss. Overall, not worth it in my opinion. The thunder claw idea is interesting, I'll have to do some testing to see how it holds up in Vahal fort. Might be cancelled out by the energy damage that the PLSM-Field gives Rika though, I really have no idea how elemental affinity works in a case like this. Using Raja isn't really feasible in any%, as he'll never have enough exp to be a high enough level to survive megid, this is a side effect of us killing him off for most of his participation on Dezo. I did consider the Mahlay dagger for Kyra, but her Gi/Nafoi do basically the same damage, and it takes a decent amount of time to recruit Hahn and unequip him and then get Kyra. I would consider it worthwhile if we skip getting Wren's equipment in Vahal fort, as it offers him up an alternative to flare, which always runs out on PD. Unless androids cant use it? I know the swift helm doesn't work on him.

Small bits of info to share: The previously mentioned Dezo route is consistently giving me better times there, so I think its a winner. I might just be getting lucky though. An alternate strategy I've considered for the Vahal Fort grind is simply not grabbing the quest and grinding in the first little area there. This saves about a minute and a half in dialogue and travel, but since we can't get Wren's items there you need a really solid DF3 fight to save time - might be worth it in a desperate scenario though. I did a little more research on equipped items and was shocked to see that the Guardian robe only gives ONE MDEF. Considering almost all the attacks for the remainder of the game are magical, I dont think its worth picking it up anymore - the reflect robe comparatively gives 14 mdef, and this should offset the need to level Rune in order to survive megid. Lastly, but most importantly, Adgey brought to my attention the fact that you can skip the "docking" cutscenes by hitting start during them. This isn't even done in the TAS, and considering all the travelling we do it should save 20+ seconds during the entire run!

Thanks for the link MrStarbird, I actually hadn't seen that one before. The flame sword certainly does do a lot more than the Laconia Sword to Lashiec, but it turns out I was wrong in thinking there would be a lack of meseta in the altered Dezo route. While the sword makes it a lot easier to push a 7 turn reinforce from Lashiec, I don't think the time spent buying the sword from Meese and then having to revisit Jut after is faster than just grabbing the sword during the big shopping trip despite the potential for saved turns against Lashiec. I could be completely wrong of course. I did some testing on the Napalm Shot, and it does somewhere in the neighbourhood of 10 extra damage compared to flare. That being said, it can also crit, but that means it can also miss. Overall, not worth it in my opinion. The thunder claw idea is interesting, I'll have to do some testing to see how it holds up in Vahal fort. Might be cancelled out by the energy damage that the PLSM-Field gives Rika though, I really have no idea how elemental affinity works in a case like this. Using Raja isn't really feasible in any%, as he'll never have enough exp to be a high enough level to survive megid, this is a side effect of us killing him off for most of his participation on Dezo. I did consider the Mahlay dagger for Kyra, but her Gi/Nafoi do basically the same damage, and it takes a decent amount of time to recruit Hahn and unequip him and then get Kyra. I would consider it worthwhile if we skip getting Wren's equipment in Vahal fort, as it offers him up an alternative to flare, which always runs out on PD. Unless androids cant use it? I know the swift helm doesn't work on him.

Small bits of info to share: The previously mentioned Dezo route is consistently giving me better times there, so I think its a winner. I might just be getting lucky though. An alternate strategy I've considered for the Vahal Fort grind is simply not grabbing the quest and grinding in the first little area there. This saves about a minute and a half in dialogue and travel, but since we can't get Wren's items there you need a really solid DF3 fight to save time - might be worth it in a desperate scenario though. I did a little more research on equipped items and was shocked to see that the Guardian robe only gives [u]ONE[/u] MDEF. Considering almost all the attacks for the remainder of the game are magical, I dont think its worth picking it up anymore - the reflect robe comparatively gives 14 mdef, and this should offset the need to level Rune in order to survive megid. Lastly, but most importantly, Adgey brought to my attention the fact that you can skip the "docking" cutscenes by hitting start during them. This isn't even done in the TAS, and considering all the travelling we do it should save 20+ seconds during the entire run!

MrStarbird

2015-12-13 05:31:09 pm

Leader of Starbirdia!

Elemental Affinity works like this for dual wielding (either two weapons or weapon/shield): If two items are equipped, the damage calculation takes into affect the item with the greatest affinity factor against the target. The Thunder Claw gives a "Thunder" property to Rika's attacks (which against machine monsters has a factor level of 3, or about 1.5x damage), and even mixed with a Plasma Barrier, the property of the Thunder Claw will override the Plasma Barrier because the factor of the Thunder Claw is higher against Vahal Fort enemies. The Thunder Claw also gives Rika 2 more strength (at least from my research) so against machine enemies is the best claw for her. In most other cases, the Silver Tusk is the better option.

I see your point on Raja. Even by giving him double Silver Shields he would still die that quickly to Megid?

As far as using the Mahlay Dagger with Wren, if you do run out of Flares that would be a better alternative. Flare does more damage so long as Wren's strength is higher than 32. Wren can use equipment (I believe) as items so long as they are damaging items. Been a while so that would have to be tested.

Also, I don't know how far if at all you can get into Vahal Fort without grabbing the quest, as I thought there was a barrier a few tiles into the building barring entry. I could be wrong with that as well, but if it's a few tiles in but you can still get encounters, it might be worth trying to grind xp.

Yeah, Guardian Robe isn't worth getting, though the Guardian Armor is considering the excellent mdef. If you can get past DF3, going to Vahal Fort to get any of Wren's gear can be skipped because he'll get the Palma Ring and Guardian Armor on Rykros. At the end point of the game, mdef will have a higher priority than def anyway.

I will have to try the docking skip at some point. Sounds like it could really save some time.

Elemental Affinity works like this for dual wielding (either two weapons or weapon/shield): If two items are equipped, the damage calculation takes into affect the item with the greatest affinity factor against the target. The Thunder Claw gives a "Thunder" property to Rika's attacks (which against machine monsters has a factor level of 3, or about 1.5x damage), and even mixed with a Plasma Barrier, the property of the Thunder Claw will override the Plasma Barrier because the factor of the Thunder Claw is higher against Vahal Fort enemies. The Thunder Claw also gives Rika 2 more strength (at least from my research) so against machine enemies is the best claw for her. In most other cases, the Silver Tusk is the better option.

I see your point on Raja. Even by giving him double Silver Shields he would still die that quickly to Megid?

As far as using the Mahlay Dagger with Wren, if you do run out of Flares that would be a better alternative. Flare does more damage so long as Wren's strength is higher than 32. Wren can use equipment (I believe) as items so long as they are damaging items. Been a while so that would have to be tested.

Also, I don't know how far if at all you can get into Vahal Fort without grabbing the quest, as I thought there was a barrier a few tiles into the building barring entry. I could be wrong with that as well, but if it's a few tiles in but you can still get encounters, it might be worth trying to grind xp.

Yeah, Guardian Robe isn't worth getting, though the Guardian Armor is considering the excellent mdef. If you can get past DF3, going to Vahal Fort to get any of Wren's gear can be skipped because he'll get the Palma Ring and Guardian Armor on Rykros. At the end point of the game, mdef will have a higher priority than def anyway.

I will have to try the docking skip at some point. Sounds like it could really save some time.

Jiseed

2015-12-14 02:51:58 pm

Tested out the thunderclaw, definitely did more damage when it wasn't paired with the plasma field from what I saw. Overall, however, it isn't worth the effort picking it up because the genocide claw does maybe 10 damage less than the thunder claw, and I couldn't set up a scenario where Rika would one shot any of the groups with Disrupt, even with it paired with the genocide claw. That being said, it still does amazing damage when paired up with another claw, might be worth picking up for 100% or if the weapons factory gets re-introduced to the run. The silver shields actually have less mdef than psy-shields, and even with those equipped Raja dies consistently to megid unless hes level 34.

On a side note, got a new pb that showcases the altered Dezo route, along with other things mentioned in the thread. I'll pop it up on here for people who would prefer to see the changes in action.

Jiseed

2015-12-24 07:16:27 pm

Updated my notes to reflect the current any% route. Enjoy!

https://goo.gl/sclPI3

bichphuongballz

2015-12-24 07:59:20 pm

bichGOAL

Cheers jiseed for your hard work. Hope the game sees some love again.

Adgey

Edit history:

Adgey: 2015-12-28 09:45:00 am

Adgey: 2015-12-28 08:30:06 am

Adgey: 2015-12-28 07:58:42 am

Adgey: 2015-12-28 06:56:28 am

Adgey: 2015-12-28 06:44:46 am

2015-12-27 11:49:07 am

Been playing a bit lately trying out a couple of things such as skipping the silver tusk, its viable but the damage loss on dark force 2 and 3 is pretty severe so it probably isn't worth doing for now. I think the route at this point is probably close to optimal. I tried your idea of grinding at the begining of Vahal fort Jiseed and not bothering to get Wren's gear and after a bit of practice on Dark Force 3 it does save quite a bit of time. It does require better execution on the fight though and does make it the most difficult fight in the game for sure.

edit: also an idea is getting a silver helm for chaz when you get to dezo, it gives 2 mental and 3 mdef more than ceramic helm and would help a lot against anothergate if chaz is slightly underleveled. Would also be nice on dark force 2 and 3. Another thing is I think the psy crown might be better than the mota ring for Rika on the final boss for the extra boost if gives to Saner. You do lose some defense though and could get more easily one shot from the final boss' normal attack. But if Kyra is 32 I think it wil be better and eliminate the chance that the boss gets megid off before gaurd rod.

Been playing a bit lately trying out a couple of things such as skipping the silver tusk, its viable but the damage loss on dark force 2 and 3 is pretty severe so it probably isn't worth doing for now. I think the route at this point is probably close to optimal. I tried your idea of grinding at the begining of Vahal fort Jiseed and not bothering to get Wren's gear and after a bit of practice on Dark Force 3 it does save quite a bit of time. It does require better execution on the fight though and does make it the most difficult fight in the game for sure.

edit: also an idea is getting a silver helm for chaz when you get to dezo, it gives 2 mental and 3 mdef more than ceramic helm and would help a lot against anothergate if chaz is slightly underleveled. Would also be nice on dark force 2 and 3. Another thing is I think the psy crown might be better than the mota ring for Rika on the final boss for the extra boost if gives to Saner. You do lose some defense though and could get more easily one shot from the final boss' normal attack. But if Kyra is 32 I think it wil be better and eliminate the chance that the boss gets megid off before gaurd rod.

Adgey

Edit history:

Adgey: 2015-12-28 06:44:17 am

2015-12-28 06:42:55 am

edit: double post.

MrStarbird

2016-01-02 08:17:03 am

Leader of Starbirdia!

It's actually possible to run from the Iglanova fight if he's paralyzed?

discoransom

2016-01-02 11:06:15 pm

Quote from MrStarbird:

It's actually possible to run from the Iglanova fight if he's paralyzed?

Yeah I found that out working on segmented. If he is successfully Earth'd, and starts the next round of combat still Earth'd, you can just run away. It's low percentage for a SS run, but a big time saver. I haven't found any other bosses that are exploitable.

MrStarbird

2016-01-07 09:39:29 am

Leader of Starbirdia!

Yeah, Iglanova is the only boss who has any chance to be paralyzed according to the Technical Charts on Gamefaqs, and even then the probability is lower than normal, so running from there would require a bit of luck. Still never would have thought of that though.