Mega Man 2, starring Seth Glass

2010-04-20 04:32:54 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Bosses are even slower with registering successive hits, so you have a point there.

The NES Advantage has adjustable autofire but who would play a Mega Man game with a joystick? lol

I'm just jealous because I suck at mashing ._.

Josh the Funkdoc

2010-04-21 04:59:34 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

Yeah Shiner, I thought the same thing at first when I saw Seth/Frezy/Tiki. I'm terrible at mashing and didn't know you could legitimately do it that fast!

Good luck Seth, I'll probably be in there when you start streaming again. =)

ShinerCCC

2010-04-23 12:24:04 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

This run made me realize minute breakpoints are stupid. If he had, say, a 28:35 run everyone would go "great time, cool, can't be improved much farther"

But instead it's a 28:02 run and everyone goes "OMG MUST IMPROVE BY 3 SECONDS!! GIVE THOSE HORSES THE LASH!!1111"'''';;;

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2010-04-23 12:32:27 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

I can't remember if you used item-2 at the start of bubble man and you can't seek very well with that stream, but I think it might be faster to use item-2 at the end and kill the frogs at the start. I remember bisqwit saying that using item-2 at the start of bubble man causes about 3 seconds of lag opposed to killing the frogs.

Bablo

2010-04-23 12:50:36 pm

I'm a flippin' ninja

Quote from Spider-Waffle:

I can't remember if you used item-2 at the start of bubble man and you can't seek very well with that stream, but I think it might be faster to use item-2 at the end and kill the frogs at the start. I remember bisqwit saying that using item-2 at the start of bubble man causes about 3 seconds of lag opposed to killing the frogs.

I doubt using item-2 at the end is worth two weapon switches. It's faster for the tas because it's using item-2 before it anyway for two zips.

BananaFormula

2010-04-23 01:52:22 pm

also by walking forward at the right time we reduce the lag to nothing. zipping with the item 2 is too difficult, so we use it at the beginning.

sinister1

2010-04-23 06:31:37 pm

sinister1

so pro u don't even know

Quote from ShinerCCC:

This run made me realize minute breakpoints are stupid. If he had, say, a 28:35 run everyone would go "great time, cool, can't be improved much farther"

But instead it's a 28:02 run and everyone goes "OMG MUST IMPROVE BY 3 SECONDS!! GIVE THOSE HORSES THE LASH!!1111"'''';;;

***WARNING LONG POST*** if you are not interested just skip to the bottom for my thoughts regarding the run.

I really enjoyed ShinerCCC's post because it brings up a good point and is thought provoking.

Breakpoints have essentially no direct correlation to what I will call the "actual quality" (AQ) of a speedrun which is an objective concept. However breakpoints may have a correlation to what I will call the "perceived quality" (PQ) of a speedrun which is more a subjective concept. My terms will be defined relative to the concept of speedrunning under this definition:

Speedrun: A video game played according to rules set forth by a governing body with the goal of fastest completion under said rules.

The AQ of a run is a quantitative concept that can be measured in units such as time or frames. If there is a time that is the absolute limit of how fast a game can be beaten the AQ of the run is directly correlated to how close you can get to this optimal time. AQ increases the closer you get to the optimal time and decreases the further you get away from the optimal time. TASes attempt to reach the optimal time and most do not, but they can give us an idea of what is close to an optimal time with current knowledge, strats, etc. Please note that this site publishes runs based on AQ in the vast majority of cases. That is, if one speedrun of a game is faster than another it will be published obsoleting any older runs that are not as fast.

The "perceived quality" of a speedrun is a subjective concept that has to do with nonquantitive ideas like entertainment value, or breakpoints. Someone might find a certain run that is slower than another run more entertaining. For example there was a previously published run on this site that was obsoleted. The obsoleted run had a very entertaining trick in it, while the run that obsoleted it did not. I personally perceived the slower run to be more entertaining and thus have a higher PQ than the faster run which clearly has a higher AQ. On the other hand a different individual might find the newer run more entertaining because it reached a certain breakpoint. Please note that this site encourages PQ concepts such as entertainment value but does not publish runs based on said concepts. For instance a no damage run might be very entertaining to some individuals but will not be published simply on the merit of that entertainment value if a category does not exist or it does not obsolete a current best time for the game in question.

A run I submitted to this site had what I consider a higher PQ than its AQ at the cost of 4 seconds. The times were 11:18 and 11:22, had they instead been 10:58 and 11:02 would my decision on which one to submit have been different?? Lets just say I am glad I did not have to make that decision.

Breakpoints play into the obsessive nature of speedrunning, and if you think about it that can be a good thing. Here's why: Speedruns ALWAYS have room for improvement. That is why great runs get obsoleted. Hell, even TASes which are supposed to be optimized to the max get obsoleted. Breakpoints can also be a bad thing. Here's why: A run may never get completed if someone is obsessed with a breakpoint so much that they neglect to see the AQ of their run and withhold submission.

So to sum up, breakpoints are good to a degree. They help us push the limits of our speedrunning, and as longs as folks do not overvalue them they do relatively little harm. In the end it is the runner's own personal choice regarding what they value that will determine the effect of breakpoints on their run and I think that is just fine.

===============================================

I watched the 28:01 and thought it was fantastic. If the runner wants to go for sub 28:00 then I say good luck to him. I look forward to the finished product whether it is 28:01 or 27:xx.

[quote="ShinerCCC"]
This run made me realize minute breakpoints are stupid. If he had, say, a 28:35 run everyone would go "great time, cool, can't be improved much farther"

But instead it's a 28:02 run and everyone goes "OMG MUST IMPROVE BY 3 SECONDS!! GIVE THOSE HORSES THE LASH!!1111"'''';;;
[/quote]
[b]***WARNING LONG POST*** if you are not interested just skip to the bottom for my thoughts regarding the run.[/b]

I really enjoyed ShinerCCC's post because it brings up a good point and is thought provoking.

Breakpoints have essentially no direct correlation to what I will call the "actual quality" (AQ) of a speedrun which is an objective concept. However breakpoints may have a correlation to what I will call the "perceived quality" (PQ) of a speedrun which is more a subjective concept. My terms will be defined relative to the concept of speedrunning under this definition:

[b]Speedrun:[/b] A video game played according to rules set forth by a governing body with the goal of fastest completion under said rules.

The AQ of a run is a quantitative concept that can be measured in units such as time or frames. If there is a time that is the absolute limit of how fast a game can be beaten the AQ of the run is directly correlated to how close you can get to this optimal time. AQ increases the closer you get to the optimal time and decreases the further you get away from the optimal time. TASes attempt to reach the optimal time and most do not, but they can give us an idea of what is close to an optimal time with current knowledge, strats, etc. Please note that this site publishes runs based on AQ in the vast majority of cases. That is, if one speedrun of a game is faster than another it will be published obsoleting any older runs that are not as fast.

The "perceived quality" of a speedrun is a subjective concept that has to do with nonquantitive ideas like entertainment value, or breakpoints. Someone might find a certain run that is slower than another run more entertaining. For example there was a previously published run on this site that was obsoleted. The obsoleted run had a very entertaining trick in it, while the run that obsoleted it did not. I personally perceived the slower run to be more entertaining and thus have a higher PQ than the faster run which clearly has a higher AQ. On the other hand a different individual might find the newer run more entertaining because it reached a certain breakpoint. Please note that this site encourages PQ concepts such as entertainment value but does not publish runs based on said concepts. For instance a no damage run might be very entertaining to some individuals but will not be published simply on the merit of that entertainment value if a category does not exist or it does not obsolete a current best time for the game in question.

A run I submitted to this site had what I consider a higher PQ than its AQ at the cost of 4 seconds. The times were 11:18 and 11:22, had they instead been 10:58 and 11:02 would my decision on which one to submit have been different?? Lets just say I am glad I did not have to make that decision.

Breakpoints play into the obsessive nature of speedrunning, and if you think about it that can be a good thing. Here's why: Speedruns ALWAYS have room for improvement. That is why great runs get obsoleted. Hell, even TASes which are supposed to be optimized to the max get obsoleted. Breakpoints can also be a bad thing. Here's why: A run may never get completed if someone is obsessed with a breakpoint so much that they neglect to see the AQ of their run and withhold submission.

So to sum up, breakpoints are good to a degree. They help us push the limits of our speedrunning, and as longs as folks do not overvalue them they do relatively little harm. In the end it is the runner's own personal choice regarding what they value that will determine the effect of breakpoints on their run and I think that is just fine.

===============================================

I watched the 28:01 and thought it was fantastic. If the runner wants to go for sub 28:00 then I say good luck to him. I look forward to the finished product whether it is 28:01 or 27:xx.

eternaljwh

2010-04-24 02:25:11 am

Quote from ShinerCCC:

Bosses are even slower with registering successive hits, so you have a point there.

The NES Advantage has adjustable autofire but who would play a Mega Man game with a joystick? lol

I'm just jealous because I suck at mashing ._.

You're forgetting the NES Max, the first-party handheld turbo controller.

Josh the Funkdoc

2010-04-24 12:38:42 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

Congrats on finally breaking 28 Seth!

Do no-glitch run next imo =)

Practice

2010-04-24 10:09:47 pm

mega man 2 in 27:54

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6396214

starts at 00:30

cyghfer

2010-04-24 10:59:06 pm

Just watched it - thing that stood out the most to me was that Quickman2 fight was ridiculously good, and the uncommon zip route in Woodman's stage. Outstanding run, congrats on hitting 27:XX !

also: great and very true post by sinister up there

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2010-04-24 11:28:59 pm

2010-04-24 11:20:27 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

12:50-14:20 is absolutely incredible work. Shocked

That must have taken a bit of practice to say the least.

This run was very well done. There are so many difficult maneuvers throughout the whole thing that I doubt we'll see one for a looong while.

Also, I love how the topic still says 29:xx. Insane how much has changed to improve from 29:xx times to 27:xx times.

scaryice

2010-04-25 12:15:16 am

I have to ask again - why get this good at the game and still run it on normal? That's not the way it was meant to be played.

Trevor

2010-04-25 08:41:14 am

that was great. also, your continued dedication to this game is admirable.

PJ

2010-04-25 01:21:10 pm

Is PJ

Wow! Great job Seth! I was busy 'celebrating' this weekend so I unfortunately missed this run. I'll be sure to check it out tonight.

Fantastic work!

Practice

2010-04-26 08:46:03 am

thanks for your support. unfortunately this run was rejected because the video quality is not up to SDA's par. i guess i will try to record a better run in better quality. wish me luck : )

andrewg

2010-04-26 08:55:50 am

Hi! I'm andrewg!

Quote from Practice:

thanks for your support. unfortunately this run was rejected because the video quality is not up to SDA's par. i guess i will try to record a better run in better quality. wish me luck : )

really? Did you only record it with the live stream? :/

Good luck man!

Hattori HANZo

2010-04-26 02:48:10 pm

contraddicted

We now do having success much great!!!

27:49

Practice

Edit history:

Practice: 2010-06-19 10:58:15 am

2010-04-28 12:09:20 pm

difference between Rockman 2 and Mega Man 2 (Difficult)
in between bosses the time it takes before you can select start > to the next stage is different between rm2 and mm2, but nobody really ever bothered to find out by how much.
i started from the first frame the "you got x weapon" animation begins to play, and stopped when the 'select password' option first appears on the screen.

Mega Man 2:
Bubbleman: 556 (frames)
Airman: 2110
Quickman: 667
Heatman: 2111
Metalman: 552
Flashman: 2111
Crashman: 555
Woodman: 551
Total: 9213

Rockman 2:
Flashman: 1590
Heatman: 1592
Airman: 1590
Clashman: 373
Quickman: 373
Metalman: 379
Bubbleman: 378
Woodman: 378
Total: 6653

Difference: 2560 = 42.66 Seconds.

so in the future if we ever wish to compare a rm2 run to a mm2 (difficult) run, this penalty should be added on the the rm2 time to get an accurate comparison.

video:

Spider-Waffle

(user is banned)

2010-05-06 03:18:47 pm

Don't think! feeeeeal

has anyone even done a rm2 or difficult run?

psion0011

2010-05-22 02:02:04 pm

This japanese player regularly runs rockman 2 on nicolive (for hours and hours on end) and has a personal best of 28:25. If the timing differences are right then it translates to roughly 27:43, which is close to the records here.

http://com.nicovideo.jp/community/co24342

andrewg

2010-05-22 02:19:25 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

Quote from psion0011:

This japanese player regularly runs rockman 2 on nicolive (for hours and hours on end) and has a personal best of 28:25. If the timing differences are right then it translates to roughly 27:43, which is close to the records here.

http://com.nicovideo.jp/community/co24342

uhh, if I'm understanding correctly, it's actually adding 42 seconds to 28:25 not subtracting?

ie: not 27:43, but 29:07. That's what it looks like to me anyway.

Flip

2010-05-22 03:19:17 pm

1-Up!

That's right, according to Practice, RM2 has a 42 second advantage over MM2.

So any RM2 time will have to have 42 seconds added to it to fairly compare to a MM2 time.

Thus the nico guy with a RM2 28:25 would have a 29:07 MM2 time.

Practice

2010-06-11 10:52:50 pm

Mega Man 2 (Difficult) in 29:00 US / 28:18 JP.

the previous WR was done by Nou1 in 29:07 US / 28:25 JP

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/7598256

Kryal

2010-10-09 01:52:33 am

from red to blue

Necro bumping because a new Mega Man 2 TAS has been submitted by someone called "aglasscage". Sound familiar to you?

http://tasvideos.org/2863S.html