Dust: An Elysian Tail (Studying the game)

2013-07-27 06:46:38 pm

I tied Naglfar's record with a 21:29.51 (rounds to 21:30): http://www.twitch.tv/vulajin/c/2646597

Some slight route modifications based on feedback by Grokken in my chat right before the runs. If you skip the first key and get the second chest in Aurora Village instead, you end up with ~3200 gold, enough for 8 Teleport Stones (plus one from the chest). This saves approximately 2-3 seconds if you play it right. This leaves you at 9 teleport stones, which is actually sufficient, because you can skip the teleport in Blackmoor. It turns out that backtracking from the first room of Blackmoor and exiting out the main entrance of Sorrowing Meadow is approximately the same speed as going up to the teleporter. So the total savings in the route is on the order of 3 seconds, but you get to skip the first key, which means fewer rocket jumps, which makes me happy.

The run is still improvable by all the time I lost on Gaius (about 13 seconds) and by another few seconds in the Glade. Sorrowing Meadow is probably doable more quickly as well, but it requires pretty precise play.

I tied Naglfar's record with a 21:29.51 (rounds to 21:30): http://www.twitch.tv/vulajin/c/2646597

Some slight route modifications based on feedback by Grokken in my chat right before the runs. If you skip the first key and get the second chest in Aurora Village instead, you end up with ~3200 gold, enough for 8 Teleport Stones (plus one from the chest). This saves approximately 2-3 seconds if you play it right. This leaves you at 9 teleport stones, which is actually sufficient, because you can skip the teleport in Blackmoor. It turns out that backtracking from the first room of Blackmoor and exiting out the main entrance of Sorrowing Meadow is approximately the same speed as going up to the teleporter. So the total savings in the route is on the order of 3 seconds, but you get to skip the first key, which means fewer rocket jumps, which makes me happy.

The run is still improvable by all the time I lost on Gaius (about 13 seconds) and by another few seconds in the Glade. Sorrowing Meadow is probably doable more quickly as well, but it requires pretty precise play.

Naglfar

2013-07-27 09:02:05 pm

vulajin please

Naglfar

Edit history:

Naglfar: 2013-07-28 05:55:24 am

2013-07-27 09:04:00 pm

oh yeah I should probably log in

my run is 21:30 rounded down; so GG. I'd watch this right now but paper mario Sad

edit: not powerful enough to triplepost. vulajin's 21:29.51 beats my 21:30.37. WHICH MEANS I need to stop playing mafia and finish this route I should have been done with two weeks ago, then get started on the race to sub-21.

Cyrax

Edit history:

Cyrax: 2013-07-31 12:35:05 am

2013-07-31 12:34:30 am

Konkey Dong

So, I'm curious, did anyone ever figure out how Kwanzi's glitch works? I'm trying it, but I don't know if it's for NG+ only or if that doesn't matter at all.

I don't think anyone's answered that question yet. Also, starting to practice this game. My goal is to be under 45 minutes just to start.

Vulajin

2013-07-31 01:36:04 am

Cyrax, Kwanzai's glitch (opening cutscene glitch) is well-known, but not well-documented in this thread. Basically, doing the Gaius skip at all breaks the opening cutscene. Because the current timing scheme starts before the opening cutscene, you can't use this glitch in a run, because it alters the length of the run. (Effectively, it's like New Game+.) I'm not sure if it's correct to exclude the opening cutscene entirely from the timing because you actually gain player control during part of it - though the player control is totally inconsequential. What do other people think?

30 minutes is a good first milestone for solid overall play and properly memorizing the warps. 25 minutes is very good play. Try for those. It's really not that difficult a game to get good at, even casually running it.

Cyrax

Edit history:

Cyrax: 2013-07-31 02:51:14 am

2013-07-31 02:50:43 am

Konkey Dong

Right, but I put the 45 mark to just try and casually playthrough it, while possibly memorizing some spots for a 117% run in the future. I'll shoot for 30 minutes for an any% since that's your suggestion for a casual playthrough.

As far as the glitch goes, I think it should be included in a run because it skips a good chunk of time. If this has been discussed to death, though, I'll suck it up and use the normal cutscene play. Thanks!

Naglfar

2013-07-31 03:06:43 am

permitting that glitch in any% would mean you'd need over twenty minutes of setup every time you want to do some runs, and you won't ever be able to reset either since you'll lose the conditions for the glitch. nothx. on the topic of goal times, if you're just gonna Run 4 Fun you probably don't care what your time is, but I like to think of sub-23 as a benchmark of general competence - if you just keep playing you'll get there. sub-21 is what I'm shooting for as a really good time, but since I'm a dirty perfectionist I don't actually know what kind of time I'll eventually find myself satisfied with.

speaking of 117%, I think it's time to get back into it and stream some practice toniiiight

Vulajin

Edit history:

Vulajin: 2013-07-31 03:09:17 am

2013-07-31 03:08:44 am

The reason I disagree is that it requires setup using a previous game. That technically makes the play prior to the cutscene part of your run, because it's required setup. Basically, the setup you do before the run enables a time reduction that isn't possible without the setup. That doesn't make it something to prohibit for all runs, but it does kind of warrant its own category. That said, however, no one has really discussed this to any significant extent - I've expressed my opinion a few times, but I'd love to hear what other Dust runners think. Also to note: as Raelcun pointed out, SDA rules would technically have us start timing after the opening cutscene. If we were to do that, then the length of the cutscene is literally irrelevant (and you can glitch to your heart's content).

Basically, the way we currently time the run is a hybrid of whatever the first couple runners did, plus my insistence that we time until the end of the crawl (to adhere to SDA rules). Perhaps it would be reasonable to just standardize to SDA rules, which would not only make the timing less confusing, but also render the cutscene question moot (and also permit multiple runs without restarting the damn client -_-). The nice thing is that if you skip timing the intro cutscene, it subtracts a fixed amount of time (1:03 or 1:04, I forget how much) from all current run times, so it's still possible to compare to those.

(For a contrasting situation re: pre-game setup - another game I play is Pokemon Black, and in that game we do RNG manipulation before the run starts. The RNG manipulation (setting the DS clock) isn't timed because it doesn't, strictly speaking, enable behavior that isn't possible without the setup - it just skips the [effectively infinite] resets you'd otherwise need to get a stater with perfect stats and nature. As such, in this case I think it's reasonable that the setup isn't counted.)

The reason I disagree is that it requires setup using a previous game. That technically makes the play prior to the cutscene part of your run, because it's required setup. Basically, the setup you do before the run enables a time reduction that isn't possible without the setup. That doesn't make it something to prohibit for all runs, but it does kind of warrant its own category. That said, however, no one has really discussed this to any significant extent - I've expressed my opinion a few times, but I'd love to hear what other Dust runners think. Also to note: as Raelcun pointed out, SDA rules would technically have us start timing after the opening cutscene. If we were to do that, then the length of the cutscene is literally irrelevant (and you can glitch to your heart's content).

Basically, the way we currently time the run is a hybrid of whatever the first couple runners did, plus my insistence that we time until the end of the crawl (to adhere to SDA rules). Perhaps it would be reasonable to just standardize to SDA rules, which would not only make the timing less confusing, but also render the cutscene question moot (and also permit multiple runs without restarting the damn client -_-). The nice thing is that if you skip timing the intro cutscene, it subtracts a fixed amount of time (1:03 or 1:04, I forget how much) from all current run times, so it's still possible to compare to those.

(For a contrasting situation re: pre-game setup - another game I play is Pokemon Black, and in that game we do RNG manipulation before the run starts. The RNG manipulation (setting the DS clock) isn't timed because it doesn't, strictly speaking, enable behavior that isn't possible without the setup - it just skips the [effectively infinite] resets you'd otherwise need to get a stater with perfect stats and nature. As such, in this case I think it's reasonable that the setup isn't counted.)

Cyrax

2013-07-31 03:20:47 am

Konkey Dong

What I'm getting out of this is that it actually doesn't matter if you use the glitch in a casual run, but in an actual run or attempt, it's disallowed despite it being under the category of a controlled character. Also, it requires a NG+ then? That's what I'm assuming, but runs mostly go from a NG+ so it would be a moot point, basically?

KRP

2013-07-31 03:53:42 am

Im gonna start to speedrun this game. Been checking your tutorials out Vulajin. Helped me alot!

Vulajin

2013-07-31 04:25:51 am

There's no actual "New Game+" feature in Dust. It's just what we say to mean, "you need an existing save to do this."

Cyrax

2013-07-31 12:39:13 pm

Konkey Dong

Oh, that clears up some confusion on my part. Thanks for the info!

KRP

2013-08-01 11:42:04 am

I found this glitch when screwing around with the warp glitch earlier. It does not seem to affect speedrunning, atleast not what ive found yet tho. http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b624/Jens_Edvinsson/gltichdust_zps9a6e932f.png?t=1375378830

Vulajin

2013-08-01 01:24:27 pm

I'm not 100% sure what I'm looking at in that screenshot. Can you provide a little background on what you did to achieve...whatever that is? <_<

KRP

2013-08-01 01:32:36 pm

Okey so. When you come to the cutscene when the guard talks to Gaius (the cutscene after you have either killed or skipped Fuzed). The game ''warps'' you to the cutscene. So right after you have seen that cutscene you warp ANYWHERE outside the map. You will warp into the cutscene but under it. The room is very glitchy so the game will crash alot. But you will warp right to the edge of the room so just simply exit it to the left and then press ESC (I play with a keyboard). The game will take you back to the same room but instead of you spawning under it you will spawn over it and can simply walk to the cutscene version of both the guard and Gaius (thats why they are so big). You can hit them (thats what I did) to make them move around. I have been able to hit both of them one time (I don't know how) and they both lost abit of health. But generally both the guard and Gaius are just ''statues'' I haven't find any way of improving any speedrun time with this. Yet atleast..

The Kwanzai's into cutscene glitch will also get triggered by entering the Gaius cutscene room.

Okey so. When you come to the cutscene when the guard talks to Gaius (the cutscene after you have either killed or skipped Fuzed). The game ''warps'' you to the cutscene. So right after you have seen that cutscene you warp ANYWHERE outside the map. You will warp into the cutscene but under it. The room is very glitchy so the game will crash alot. But you will warp right to the edge of the room so just simply exit it to the left and then press ESC (I play with a keyboard). The game will take you back to the same room but instead of you spawning under it you will spawn over it and can simply walk to the cutscene version of both the guard and Gaius (thats why they are so big). You can hit them (thats what I did) to make them move around. I have been able to hit both of them one time (I don't know how) and they both lost abit of health. But generally both the guard and Gaius are just ''statues'' I haven't find any way of improving any speedrun time with this. Yet atleast..

The Kwanzai's into cutscene glitch will also get triggered by entering the Gaius cutscene room.

KRP

2013-08-01 01:33:15 pm

I would love to stream it but I am on a really bad net atm so I can't. Maybe I will put of a video on youtube later tho

ogam

Edit history:

ogam: 2013-08-02 01:55:47 am

ogam: 2013-08-02 01:32:39 am

2013-08-02 01:14:18 am

Using my last break for the day I was trying to find a way to use 'glade' warp auto save thing. http://www.twitch.tv/mrogam/c/2677827
Also looking at what KRP was mentioning, yeah that leaves you in a really glitchy 'glade' place. Really curious if you can find a crack somewhere to actually get to the last room rather than being rubberbanded back to the last spot you stood at or came in from.

Because naglfar's chat is broken. If you're lacking experience after kane, you can get extra exp off the rat off of the rat infront red barrier to mountains. Yes there is a rat infront of the rat.. Obvious typo but not going to fix it.

Naglfar

2013-08-02 01:57:13 am

ogaaaam stop being so busy

oh avgustin. okay, that's a pretty good backup, especially since if you're short on experience after kane you're probably ahead somehow anyway. would have saved a few extra seconds.

KRP

2013-08-02 05:06:57 am

Cool stuff ogam!
Yea I have been looking more into it (I will even more today) and when you exit the game in the glitchy 'glade' room as I said earlier the Kwanzai's into cutscene glitch will trigger when you enter a new game. If you walk all the way to the right the game will reload with the full cutscene. But if you go to the left and run towards the wall. Around 2 seconds when the screen blacks out before the game starts in the glade. You can see Dust falling to the right with Fidget (in a snowy background). And if you just stand still to the left Dust will appear with Fidget in the bottom left. Maybe you can wrong warp in some kind of way before the game starts?

KRP

2013-08-02 05:08:06 am

Also entering the glitchy 'glade' will unload all monsters in the haunted house.

Vulajin

2013-08-02 05:51:28 pm

Dunno why Naglfar didn't mention it here, but he just got a new WR of 21:18 last night. Maybe because he knows he can do even better than that. Smiley

Naglfar

2013-08-02 07:58:26 pm

haha, well yeah: http://www.twitch.tv/naglfarnr/c/2678203

I wasn't planning on posting any more records until I hit sub-21, but now it's on the table, here you are.

Cyrax

2013-08-02 09:26:29 pm

Konkey Dong

Quote from Vulajin:

Dunno why Naglfar didn't mention it here, but he just got a new WR of 21:18 last night. Maybe because he knows he can do even better than that. Smiley

Nicely done, Naglfar!

Naglfar

2013-08-04 01:03:00 am

http://www.twitch.tv/naglfarnr/c/2688906

vulajin got to sub-21 before me, but... :I

Vulajin

2013-08-04 04:29:03 pm

For a little more exposition...yesterday was the day of crushing Dust to pieces. I started in the afternoon by getting the WR twice (21:13 and 21:11), then finally broke sub-21 with this 20:54 run: http://www.twitch.tv/vulajin/c/2692066

Naglfar was there to see that, so I guess he got a little excited, and figured he could do it too. So we had a couple races, in which he proceeded to get 20:55 with probably the most awful midgame possible. Then he cleaned up his midgame and came up with a mind-blowing run of 20:20.

I'm really really proud that we've managed to crack the 21 minute barrier, but I don't think I'm going to push for PBs in this category for now. I expect Naglfar will finalize his 117% route and crush my time in that, and I'll probably come back to this game at that point. I'm also looking forward to seeing a bunch of new runners bring some more innovations to the route so that we can soundly crush sub-20 and start working on sub-19. Smiley