Paper Mario (N64) Discussion and Planning Sub-4:40

StrangenessDSS

Edit history:

StrangenessDSS: 2006-01-29 09:24:06 pm

2006-01-29 09:22:12 pm

Sleeping Terror

Isn't there one at the top of the room right next to where you get Watt? If you don't upgrade her, you should at least upgrade someone there. It's right on your path.

VorpalEdge

Edit history:

VorpalEdge: 2006-01-29 09:29:06 pm

2006-01-29 09:28:40 pm

welcome to the machine

It's invisible and one room to the right of the room where you get her.

Can you see invisible blocks without upgrading her once?

Yoshi348

2006-01-29 10:33:29 pm

dinosaur from the past

Yes.

Galactic

2006-01-29 10:53:02 pm

I'm planning on having a go at Speed-Running this game myself. I'm playing the PAL Version of the game, so presumably I'm aiming for sub 4:40 (or sub 3:20, considering the PAL Version's inexplicably dodgy timer, which, according to my research, appears to move around 16.6% slower than the game itself does).

This is my original Segment plan:

Segment #1: Beginning And Prologue
Segment #2: Chapter 1
Segment #3: Chapter 2
Segment #4: Chapter 3
Segment #5: Chapter 4
Segment #6: Chapter 5 up until Mt. LavaLava
Segment #7: Chapter 5 - Mt. LavaLava
Segment #8: Chapter 6 up until Cloudy Climb
Segment #9: Chapter 6 - Cloudy Climb
Segment #10: Chapter 7 up until Crystal Palace
Segment #11: Chapter 7 - Crystal Palace up until Crystal King's Ridge
Segment #12: Chapter 7 - Crystal King's Ridge
Segment #13: Chapter 8 up until Peach's Castle
Segment #14: Chapter 8 - Peach's Castle up until Tower
Segment #15: Chapter 8 - Final Battle

I am considering dividing Chapters 6 and 8 up into another Segment each, since there is so much which can go wrong in those Chapters. Does this Segmenting plan sound any good, or would it be better to have more Segments?

I'm planning on having a go at Speed-Running this game myself. I'm playing the PAL Version of the game, so presumably I'm aiming for sub 4:40 (or sub 3:20, considering the PAL Version's inexplicably dodgy timer, which, according to my research, appears to move around 16.6% slower than the game itself does).

This is my original Segment plan:

Segment #1: Beginning And Prologue
Segment #2: Chapter 1
Segment #3: Chapter 2
Segment #4: Chapter 3
Segment #5: Chapter 4
Segment #6: Chapter 5 up until Mt. LavaLava
Segment #7: Chapter 5 - Mt. LavaLava
Segment #8: Chapter 6 up until Cloudy Climb
Segment #9: Chapter 6 - Cloudy Climb
Segment #10: Chapter 7 up until Crystal Palace
Segment #11: Chapter 7 - Crystal Palace up until Crystal King's Ridge
Segment #12: Chapter 7 - Crystal King's Ridge
Segment #13: Chapter 8 up until Peach's Castle
Segment #14: Chapter 8 - Peach's Castle up until Tower
Segment #15: Chapter 8 - Final Battle

I am considering dividing Chapters 6 and 8 up into another Segment each, since there is so much which can go wrong in those Chapters. Does this Segmenting plan sound any good, or would it be better to have more Segments?

Floogal

Edit history:

Floogal: 2006-01-29 11:07:50 pm

2006-01-29 11:03:50 pm

Hmm....

StrangenessDSS is right. Since you need to ride the platforms up anyways, the Super Block between Big Lanturn Ghost and General Guy is a very small detour time-wise. Probably up there with the one right before Shiver City and the one in Dry Dry Ruins for fastest upgrades.

However, if Watt isn't needed for anything besides Power Shock between General Guy and Crystal King, then you should consider upgrading Watt at the Super Blocks from Chapter 7 (right before pipe to Shiver City, and Shiver Mountain), and upgrade someone else in Shyguy's Toybox. Bombette would be a good choice if Power Bomb isn't used in Chapter 2. Bow or Goombario would work well if you plan to use Fan Smack or Multibonk later in the game.

To Galactic:

As long as the Save Block is not far out of the way, I would save before any major thing (mainly battles) where luck is involved. Have a 2 minute segment following a 35 minute segment if you have to. A 3 segment run won't be much more impressive than a 78 segment run.

Hmm....

StrangenessDSS is right.  Since you need to ride the platforms up anyways, the Super Block between Big Lanturn Ghost and General Guy is a very small detour time-wise.  Probably up there with the one right before Shiver City and the one in Dry Dry Ruins for fastest upgrades.

However, if Watt isn't needed for anything besides Power Shock between General Guy and Crystal King, then you should consider upgrading Watt at the Super Blocks from Chapter 7 (right before pipe to Shiver City, and Shiver Mountain), and upgrade someone else in Shyguy's Toybox.  Bombette would be a good choice if Power Bomb isn't used in Chapter 2.  Bow or Goombario would work well if you plan to use Fan Smack or Multibonk later in the game.

To Galactic:

As long as the Save Block is not far out of the way, I would save before any major thing (mainly battles) where luck is involved.  Have a 2 minute segment following a 35 minute segment if you have to.  A 3 segment run won't be much more impressive than a 78 segment run.

Jacob91

2006-01-29 11:09:37 pm

Ohhhh. i knew about that one... honestly i did...

Jacob91

2006-01-29 11:11:33 pm

Quote:

I'm planning on having a go at Speed-Running this game myself. I'm playing the PAL Version of the game, so presumably I'm aiming for sub 4:40 (or sub 3:20, considering the PAL Version's inexplicably dodgy timer, which, according to my research, appears to move around 16.6% slower than the game itself does).

This is my original Segment plan:

Segment #1: Beginning And Prologue
Segment #2: Chapter 1
Segment #3: Chapter 2
Segment #4: Chapter 3
Segment #5: Chapter 4
Segment #6: Chapter 5 up until Mt. LavaLava
Segment #7: Chapter 5 - Mt. LavaLava
Segment #8: Chapter 6 up until Cloudy Climb
Segment #9: Chapter 6 - Cloudy Climb
Segment #10: Chapter 7 up until Crystal Palace
Segment #11: Chapter 7 - Crystal Palace up until Crystal King's Ridge
Segment #12: Chapter 7 - Crystal King's Ridge
Segment #13: Chapter 8 up until Peach's Castle
Segment #14: Chapter 8 - Peach's Castle up until Tower
Segment #15: Chapter 8 - Final Battle

I am considering dividing Chapters 6 and 8 up into another Segment each, since there is so much which can go wrong in those Chapters. Does this Segmenting plan sound any good, or would it be better to have more Segments?

You will probably reconsider your segment panning often, as those segments are VERY long in comparison.
try and keep it 5-25 minutes apiece and you want hate yourself for it later.

[quote]I'm planning on having a go at Speed-Running this game myself. I'm playing the PAL Version of the game, so presumably I'm aiming for sub 4:40 (or sub 3:20, considering the PAL Version's inexplicably dodgy timer, which, according to my research, appears to move around 16.6% slower than the game itself does).

This is my original Segment plan:

Segment #1: Beginning And Prologue
Segment #2: Chapter 1
Segment #3: Chapter 2
Segment #4: Chapter 3
Segment #5: Chapter 4
Segment #6: Chapter 5 up until Mt. LavaLava
Segment #7: Chapter 5 - Mt. LavaLava
Segment #8: Chapter 6 up until Cloudy Climb
Segment #9: Chapter 6 - Cloudy Climb
Segment #10: Chapter 7 up until Crystal Palace
Segment #11: Chapter 7 - Crystal Palace up until Crystal King's Ridge
Segment #12: Chapter 7 - Crystal King's Ridge
Segment #13: Chapter 8 up until Peach's Castle
Segment #14: Chapter 8 - Peach's Castle up until Tower
Segment #15: Chapter 8 - Final Battle

I am considering dividing Chapters 6 and 8 up into another Segment each, since there is so much which can go wrong in those Chapters. Does this Segmenting plan sound any good, or would it be better to have more Segments?[/quote]

You will probably reconsider your segment panning often, as those segments are VERY long in comparison.
try and keep it 5-25 minutes apiece and you want hate yourself for it later.

darkwasabi

2006-01-29 11:22:40 pm

King of hearts

Holy shit! How the fuck did this topic get 13,000+ views in 11 days and only had 8 pages. I was only gone 2 days and it went up by over 10,000. That's not possible unless someone was reloading the pages over and over. Whoever is doing this must stop.

StrangenessDSS

2006-01-30 12:27:57 am

Sleeping Terror

Quote:

...considering the PAL Version's inexplicably dodgy timer, which, according to my research, appears to move around 16.6% slower than the game itself does.

Sounds like the PAL version runs at 5/6 speed and they didn't change the timer. That's not unusual.

As for segments, do as many as you need to avoid mistakes.

Radix

Edit history:

Radix: 2006-01-30 12:46:57 am

2006-01-30 12:45:25 am

I'm addicted to games

Quote:

Holy shit! How the fuck did this topic get 13,000+ views in 11 days and only had 8 pages. I was only gone 2 days and it went up by over 10,000. That's not possible unless someone was reloading the pages over and over. Whoever is doing this must stop.

Whoever has an IP of adsl-67-65-250-71.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net has been viewing this thread for a while, but at 9:41:46 CST today there started to by thousands of views by this IP, sometimes several per second. It lasted until 12:44:50. The next request for the thread from that IP was at 13:14:56 and is normal after that. I can only assume it was a "stuck" web browser because, or perhaps malicious intent.

I dropped the view count on the thread by 10929 just so it isn't so inflated.

Edit: that IP belongs to Jacob91.

Jacob91

Edit history:

Jacob91: 2006-01-30 01:25:03 am

2006-01-30 12:56:34 am

Wow, I was at church at that time...
EDIT: When i got home, my computer was blinking back and white.

Wak

(user is banned)

Wak

Edit history:

Wak: 2006-01-30 03:37:54 am

2006-01-30 03:28:38 am

btw i got sub 1:50 at general guy. i hope you you lost some time somewhere. i might also send you my new strategies on walktrought. (not the bosses, because you don't seems to like my strategies for now)

and for Ultra goombas skipping, i was like 20 secs faster in my ancient run o_0 i dunno how i did that seriously. (part 18 from my ancient run)

Floogal

2006-01-30 08:00:38 am

Well, if we don't like your boss strategies, then all the more reason we should discuss them to improve them.

I think that the out-of-battle strategy in your current run is already pretty much perfect (in planning, not execution), since the game is so linear. The things I can remember to change:

- Get the seed from Mt. Rugged on the way back

- Activate the Jack-in-the-boxes in Shyguy's Toybox with your hammer instead of a spin jump

- Get the Fertile Soil and Crystal Berry from Posie in one visit

- In the platform-hopping, lava portion of Bowser's castle, there are two parts where you need to hit a switch to get a platform moving. In the second case, you can jump diagonally down to the switch without having to hop on Lakilester. And in both cases, you can jump upwards from the switch island onto the now-moving platform, and immediately use Parakarry to fly to the next platform. (The platform will be moving left, while Mario flies to the right.)

- If you are really gutsy, you can do the dark portion of Bowser's Castle blind without Watt (to allow spin-dashing). I won't criticise you if you don't, though.

Well, if we don't like your boss strategies, then all the more reason we should discuss them to improve them.

I think that the out-of-battle strategy in your current run is already pretty much perfect (in planning, not execution), since the game is so linear.  The things I can remember to change:

- Get the seed from Mt. Rugged on the way back

- Activate the Jack-in-the-boxes in Shyguy's Toybox with your hammer instead of a spin jump

- Get the Fertile Soil and Crystal Berry from Posie in one visit

- In the platform-hopping, lava portion of Bowser's castle, there are two parts where you need to hit a switch to get a platform moving.  In the second case, you can jump diagonally down to the switch without having to hop on Lakilester.  And in both cases, you can jump upwards from the switch island onto the now-moving platform, and immediately use Parakarry to fly to the next platform.  (The platform will be moving left, while Mario flies to the right.)

- If you are really gutsy, you can do the dark portion of Bowser's Castle blind without Watt (to allow spin-dashing).  I won't criticise you if you don't, though.

Galactic

2006-01-30 06:22:25 pm

Quote:

Sounds like the PAL version runs at 5/6 speed and they didn't change the timer. That's not unusual.

As for segments, do as many as you need to avoid mistakes.

I am aware that the NTSC Version runs faster than the PAL Version, but this must be something different. As opposed to the PAL timer being programmed to run more quickly than the NTSC timer to accommodate the speed difference, it is programmed to run more slowly than the NTSC timer. This causes, for example, 10 minutes of PAL time to be the equivalent of 12 minutes of NTSC time, in terms of the timer's display.

In practice attempts, I've found that the first four Chapters tend to involve little in the way of random factors. After Goomba Road, most of the avoidable opponents are relatively easy to avoid until Chapter 5. That's why I'm planning on doing them in a single segment each, then dividing Chapters 5-8 into numerous Segments each.

Wak

(user is banned)

Wak

Edit history:

Wak: 2006-01-30 06:27:01 pm

2006-01-30 06:26:12 pm

i'll probably get hit by an ennemy 99% of the time for the no-watt-part, but it's something that would be really cool to see. anyway, i admit that i more improved my route than my bosses battles... and yeah, the puff n nuff boss will surely be for me a pain in the ass with no power bounce... anyway, nolan beated it in 2 mins with lakilester and ultra boots... so i thought about using the same strategie

and i just remembered that yeah, the lava lava piranha have a big total of 80hp and not 40hp o_0;;; snap... i dont have any tactics for now to beat him fast...

for the 7th boss and every bosses in bowser castle, i thought about getting mega jump, a jump you can use with like 8FP... i dunno how much it hurts yet, but im pretty sure i can kill bowser 1 and 2, as well as koopa Jr. (something like that) in less than a minute!

Floogal

2006-01-30 09:00:12 pm

Mega Jump costs 3 BP to equip, 6 FP to use, and gives Mario a +4 attack boost during his attack. Keep in mind that, like Power Jump, a successful action command will not double the damage like a regular jump attack, but just increase the damage by Mario's Boot Power (which will be 3 by the time you get the badge). In a nutshell, it does 2 damage more than Power Jump for an additional 2 BP and 4 FP.

For Chapter 7 onwards, consider using Watt's Power Shock to disable the bosses (won't work on the final Bowser). Not only do you save HP, but you save time by not having to endure their (sometimes long) attack animations, and they also can't heal. This is multi-segmented, so abuse the luck (if you're insane at button mashing, there won't be any luck necessary).

For Lava Piranha, hmmm....

- As mentioned before, try status ailments

- Water Block gives you +2 defense against Fire attacks; almost as good as Chill Out

- Defeat the Lava Buds in the first stage really quickly if you aren't using status ailments (they have an annoyingly long attack animation)

- During the second stage, the lava buds take two rounds to attack you (like Bill Blasters), so just go heavy on the Lava Piranha him/herself (use Squirt instead of Tidal Wave)

Huff'n'Puff:

- Huff'n'Puff is immune to all status ailments, as well as fire and electric attacks

- Chill Out is not really a status ailment, and it does work pretty well. With it in effect, the Tuff Puffs can't hurt you, and Huff'n'Puff's Wind Blast attack (where you have to press A rapidly to lower the power) shouldn't hurt you either.

- Is the time lost picking up the Ultra Boots early less than the time saved by battling Huff'n'Puff with them?

- Memorize the turns he heals, so that you don't end up using Spiny Surge at the wrong time.

- When Huff'n'Puff electrifies himself, I would just jump on him with Power Jump (with a normal jump, the second hit will be prevented). The 1 HP damage is pretty small, and the extra damage to the boss will help.

- Try to avoid Huff'n'Puff's desperation attack. If his HP is 5 or less (and he isn't electrified), he will start continually using this attack, which has an attack power of 5 + the number of Tuff Puffs (big or small doesn't matter) around him. Since he can have up to 10 Tuff Puffs (any others will fall off the screen, the same as being automatically defeated), this attack can do up to 15 damage to Mario. So keep track of his HP, always leaving him at 6 HP or above, to avoid this.

Mega Jump costs 3 BP to equip, 6 FP to use, and gives Mario a +4 attack boost during his attack.  Keep in mind that, like Power Jump, a successful action command will not double the damage like a regular jump attack, but just increase the damage by Mario's Boot Power (which will be 3 by the time you get the badge).  In a nutshell, it does 2 damage more than Power Jump for an additional 2 BP and 4 FP.

For Chapter 7 onwards, consider using Watt's Power Shock to disable the bosses (won't work on the final Bowser).  Not only do you save HP, but you save time by not having to endure their (sometimes long) attack animations, and they also can't heal.  This is multi-segmented, so abuse the luck (if you're insane at button mashing, there won't be any luck necessary).

For Lava Piranha, hmmm....

- As mentioned before, try status ailments

- Water Block gives you +2 defense against Fire attacks; almost as good as Chill Out

- Defeat the Lava Buds in the first stage really quickly if you aren't using status ailments (they have an annoyingly long attack animation)

- During the second stage, the lava buds take two rounds to attack you (like Bill Blasters), so just go heavy on the Lava Piranha him/herself (use Squirt instead of Tidal Wave)

Huff'n'Puff:

- Huff'n'Puff is immune to all status ailments, as well as fire and electric attacks

- Chill Out is not really a status ailment, and it does work pretty well.  With it in effect, the Tuff Puffs can't hurt you, and Huff'n'Puff's Wind Blast attack (where you have to press A rapidly to lower the power) shouldn't hurt you either.

- Is the time lost picking up the Ultra Boots early less than the time saved by battling Huff'n'Puff with them?

- Memorize the turns he heals, so that you don't end up using Spiny Surge at the wrong time.

- When Huff'n'Puff electrifies himself, I would just jump on him with Power Jump (with a normal jump, the second hit will be prevented).  The 1 HP damage is pretty small, and the extra damage to the boss will help.

- Try to avoid Huff'n'Puff's desperation attack.  If his HP is 5 or less (and he isn't electrified), he will start continually using this attack, which has an attack power of 5 + the number of Tuff Puffs (big or small doesn't matter) around him.  Since he can have up to 10 Tuff Puffs (any others will fall off the screen, the same as being automatically defeated), this attack can do up to 15 damage to Mario.  So keep track of his HP, always leaving him at 6 HP or above, to avoid this.

Jacob91

2006-01-30 10:37:38 pm

Quote:

btw i got sub 1:50 at general guy. i hope you you lost some time somewhere. i might also send you my new strategies on walktrought. (not the bosses, because you don't seems to like my strategies for now)

and for Ultra goombas skipping, i was like 20 secs faster in my ancient run o_0 i dunno how i did that seriously. (part 18 from my ancient run)

of course i screwed up pretty badly, i was writing down things to watch out for up until that point.

Wak

(user is banned)

2006-01-30 10:55:36 pm

nolan said "yes" to the question: is it really faster to get the ultra boots before chapter 6?

personally, i just don't know. i'd follow him because my battle really took ~7 mins... witch is really long

Wak

(user is banned)

2006-01-31 02:26:46 pm

... should i continue my run?

Jacob91

2006-01-31 05:56:21 pm

Yes, continue your run!

Yoshi348

2006-01-31 06:26:46 pm

dinosaur from the past

Depends on whether you made some horrible crucial mistake early on.

Jacob91

2006-01-31 09:08:56 pm

GAAAHHHH! Cant block lightning attack for the life of me!

Floogal

2006-01-31 09:49:45 pm

Most attacks you need to hit A just as Mario takes damage to block. However, some attacks (such as Bowser's fire breath) require you to press A a little before Mario actually takes damage (between a quarter and a half of a second). You need to experiment to find this exact lag time. I'm pretty sure that General Guy's lightning attack (I'm assuming this is the lightning attack you're having trouble blocking) has a "lag-block."

Jacob91

Edit history:

Jacob91: 2006-02-01 01:59:22 pm

2006-02-01 01:55:03 pm

I'll just rely on the lightning/bomb so i don't have to block at all.

EDIT: thank you floogal you little strategy robot!
Worked perfectly, killed general in 1 minute 6 seconds
with only one mistake, accidentally did a 5-hit power bounce instead of a 4-hit.
My goal for my run is 59 seconds.

Jacob91

Edit history:

Jacob91: 2006-02-01 07:35:06 pm

2006-02-01 02:48:07 pm

Okay, sorry for the double-post, but i feel this needs to be separate.

I'm at Lava pirahna
With Level 6 (52 sp)
15 hp and fp
9 bp
my items are:
fireflower
snowman doll
super shroom
sleepy sheep
POW block
Whacka's Bump
Life shroom (one hidden in the ultra hammer room)
Jammin' Jelly
Maple syrup
Egg
All of my partners upgraded once (By accident, should've upgraded somebody to ultra but forgot i had the ultra stone.)

I'm trying out a few strategies to see which one takes him down the fastest.

EDIT:It is a two part battle, each has 40 hp.

Start with 14 hp, parakarry as your partner and the following badges equipped.

Ice power
Quick change
Power bounce
Mega rush

P1=Part 1 and P2=Part 2

TURN 1:
Star storm/Shell shot
Lava pirahna P1 has 27 HP remaining
Mario has 14 Hp, 2 SP, 12 fp

ENEMY PHASE 1:
Don't block anything.
Mario has 1 Hp remaining.

TURN 2:
Jump/Outta sight
Lava Pirahna P1 has 15 Hp remaining
Mario has 1 Hp, 2.15 SP, 10 Fp

ENEMY PHASE 2:
All attacks miss because of Outta sight

Turn 3:
3-hit power bounce
Lava Pirahna P1 is dead.

ENEMY PHASE 3:
Lava pirahna uses this time to revive into P2.

Turn 4:
Snowman doll/ Smack
Lava Pirahna P2 has 29 HP remaining.
Mario has 1 hp, 7 fp, and 2.60 Sp remaining

Enemy Phase 4:
Knocked out because of Snowman doll

Turn 5:
Star Storm/ Smack
Lava Pirahna P2 has 17 HP remaining.

ENEMY PHASE 5:
WAkes up.

Turn 6:
3-hit power bounce
Lava Pirahna P2 is dead.

FIGHT WON IN 6 TURNS!

Okay, sorry for the double-post, but i feel this needs to be separate.

I'm at Lava pirahna
With Level 6 (52 sp)
15 hp and fp 
9 bp
my items are:
fireflower
snowman doll
super shroom
sleepy sheep 
POW block
Whacka's Bump
Life shroom (one hidden in the ultra hammer room)
Jammin' Jelly
Maple syrup
Egg
All of my partners upgraded once (By accident, should've upgraded somebody to ultra but forgot i had the ultra stone.)

I'm trying out a few strategies to see which one takes him down the fastest.

EDIT:It is a two part battle, each has [b]40 hp.[/b]

Start with 14 hp, parakarry as your partner and the following badges equipped.

Ice power
Quick change
Power bounce
Mega rush

P1=Part 1 and P2=Part 2

TURN 1:
Star storm/Shell shot
Lava pirahna P1 has 27 HP remaining
Mario has 14 Hp, 2 SP, 12 fp

ENEMY PHASE 1:
Don't block anything.
Mario has 1 Hp remaining.

TURN 2:
Jump/Outta sight
Lava Pirahna P1 has 15 Hp remaining
Mario has 1 Hp, 2.15 SP, 10 Fp

ENEMY PHASE 2:
All attacks miss because of Outta sight

Turn 3:
3-hit power bounce
Lava Pirahna P1 is dead.

ENEMY PHASE 3:
Lava pirahna uses this time to revive into P2.

Turn 4: 
Snowman doll/ Smack
Lava Pirahna P2 has 29 HP remaining.
Mario has 1 hp, 7 fp, and 2.60 Sp remaining

Enemy Phase 4:
Knocked out because of Snowman doll

Turn 5:
Star Storm/ Smack
Lava Pirahna P2 has 17 HP remaining.

ENEMY PHASE 5:
WAkes up.

Turn 6:
3-hit power bounce
Lava Pirahna P2 is dead.

FIGHT WON IN 6 TURNS!