Paper Mario (N64) Discussion and Planning Sub-4:40

Sillygramcracker

2012-01-22 02:26:53 pm

THIS RUN CONTAINS SECRET WORLDS

@Raiker: how fast was your 100% single-segment "fun-run"?

Raiker Z

2012-01-22 04:55:38 pm

14 hours or so, included all recipes, optional bosses and max level, oh and 101 power bounces. Not great, but pretty decent considering I hadn't played in a few months and did recipes on the fly Tongue

Milligramcracker

2012-01-22 09:20:37 pm

Micromanager extraordinaire

Funny thing you should mention that. I recall doing a 100% casual SS run (by SDA's definition) in about 11-12 hours. Oh btw, this is Sillygram's alt here.

Raiker Z

2012-01-22 09:58:21 pm

I was hoping it was a coincidence too Sad

would've been funny for two similar names.

Great... now I want to see how much time I lost by adding the optional fights, max level, and recipes... Hmmm, maybe when school calms down a bit, or when I'm not playing around with: Kirby Super Star, Pokemon Snap, PM low%, PM SS, NSMBW, MK64.... Not that I'm very good at any of them (nor does it seem I'll ever get one submittable to SDA) but still fun to try.

Sadly messing around with PM 100% SS requires just a tiny bit more time then I have free, though it would be fun to plan with. How was badge shopping without recipes? I found that I had just enough for all badges/Rip Cheato after selling off my food stuffs, how did that work out without them? Desert farming?

Milligramcracker

2012-01-23 07:33:54 pm

Micromanager extraordinaire

By my estimation, if you did all recipes and max level, and optional fights, you probably wasted over 2 hours. I should also mention that in my casual 100% SS I think I wore Money Money and Refund a lot (sometimes incurring the cost of lost opportunities for maxed out offense, which is how I normally play), and still had to spend roughly 1 to 2 hours' worth of time setting up at least 10 sweet shrooms (along with some residual ultra shroom-based and jelly-based dishes) to sell for badge money and Cheato money.

I tried to produce the sweet shrooms as efficiently as possible by saving/storing all the mushrooms the game throws at you (I usually don't need them), collecting at least 1 to 3 koopa leaves every time I pass through for Koot errands, and then periodically farming cake mixes, usually two at a time, once they became available. All during this I'm trying to manage my inventory by making sure my current items have a couple empty slots when I need them, and taking the time to do the baking when I need to make room in my (unfortunately usually close to being full) stored items.

Using the Jump Attack mini game in an SS (as I think has been discussed before) is just preposterous unless you feel like flushing nearly 5 hours down the drain with utterly luck-based bullshit towards the end. Of course, a record-breaking 100% would still also have to rely on Quizmo luck, which from my experience typically wastes at least half an hour.

I have never actually tried desert farming, but it sounds like it'd be really slow and even more boring to watch than the sweet shroom setup (which is also probably really slow). Under the best of circumstances a consistent 100% SS route would probably take 3 hours longer than your recently completed run. Such a route might include grinding money with the Smash Attack mini game (though I'm unsure of this since I've never tried it and I suck at both gambling games).

By my estimation, if you did all recipes and max level, and optional fights, you probably wasted over 2 hours. I should also mention that in my casual 100% SS I think I wore Money Money and Refund a lot (sometimes incurring the cost of lost opportunities for maxed out offense, which is how I normally play), and still had to spend roughly 1 to 2 hours' worth of time setting up at least 10 sweet shrooms (along with some residual ultra shroom-based and jelly-based dishes) to sell for badge money and Cheato money.

I tried to produce the sweet shrooms as efficiently as possible by saving/storing all the mushrooms the game throws at you (I usually don't need them), collecting at least 1 to 3 koopa leaves every time I pass through for Koot errands, and then periodically farming cake mixes, usually two at a time, once they became available. All during this I'm trying to manage my inventory by making sure my current items have a couple empty slots when I need them, and taking the time to do the baking when I need to make room in my (unfortunately usually close to being full) stored items.

Using the Jump Attack mini game in an SS (as I think has been discussed before) is just preposterous unless you feel like flushing nearly 5 hours down the drain with utterly luck-based bullshit towards the end. Of course, a record-breaking 100% would still also have to rely on Quizmo luck, which from my experience typically wastes at least half an hour.

I have never actually tried desert farming, but it sounds like it'd be really slow and even more boring to watch than the sweet shroom setup (which is also probably really slow). Under the best of circumstances a consistent 100% SS route would probably take 3 hours longer than your recently completed run. Such a route might include grinding money with the Smash Attack mini game (though I'm unsure of this since I've never tried it and I suck at both gambling games).

Raiker Z

2012-01-24 09:07:57 am

Refund is probably a must in a 100% SS, with it I believe you can use hot shrooms in battle (good hp healer, small bit of fp) through pretty much the whole game and still make money (10 gp for volt shroom, sell for 15 gp; 75% of 15 is 11 gp rounded down and 12 gp rounded up, it isn't much (nor does it profit as much as any free item) but it is a profit if you need an emergency healing item).

As for money I believe you can get 4 Jammin' Jelly's and 2 Ultra shrooms (without the 100 desert block) before Bowsers castle. So 2 Jelly pop (so only visiting there once for the calculator and 2 mix's rather then farming), and 2 Jelly Ultra sell for about 600 coins? 4 Repel Gel at 30 each, and 8 whacka's bump at 64 gp each and the total for those comes too around 1232 coins although personally I think the repel gel are better off being saved for boss battles (end of Bowser's castle Jr. Troopa/Bowser wouldn't be fun underleveled after well over 8 hours).

Although sweet shroom's are worth a lot I'm not sure if they'd be faster then just life shrooms, cake mix is really irritating to get (especially with the probability of being underlevelled) so maybe just life shroom's (which have 20 gp profit if you buy the volt shroom, although I'm not 100% sure of all the shrooms that can be used as an ingredient, I believe it's super shroom+), but farming the desert is pretty quick too after money money, south of the oasis is the bandit lair, they drop a lot of coins and there are 60-80 coins in coin blocks there for the first trip. If you pray for Dry Fruit while changing screens to get them to respawn those sell for something like 15-20 gp ea themselves.

Quizmo took something like 30-45 minutes longer then he did in comparison with my segmented I honestly think my hopping way (go through the three pipes in the sewer until he appears) is the fastest way to work with him, maybe in a segmented you can try pulling off the landing zone manipulation, but I think that only works if he was last gotten anywhere EXCEPT goomba village.

I agree with the Jump Attack comment, I think at most you can try it with really low money once or twice if your desperate, but you are better off farming items in the desert. I should mention Smash Attack is little better. Lets say in 1:15 you can play two games of Smash Attack, you could either: lose 20 gp, lose a few gp (because you can "win" and still end up with less money), break even, profit by 20-30 coins (pretty consistent TBH, but losing is still really easy too), or profit by a few hundred coins (good luck required, no matter how much skill you have your first few hits need luck, and there are 2 "screens" worth of blocks unless you have the best eyes in the world your not going to see every Peach fast enough, you need to randomly hit and hope for the best). In the desert lets say you can make two trips to the bandit lair, you can make 30-40 coins, bad luck gets you something like 10-20 coins, exceptional luck will net you 50-60 coins and dry fruit (20 more). Notice the lack of lost coins? I honestly don't think that Smash Attack is good enough in a SS, not as risky as Jump Attack (at least with skill you can still at least break even every time), but if you have a bad run and hit a few fuzzies your out 10 gp. Collecting Cake Mixes in that time you could either be finishing cooking by 1:15, still chasing the retarded shy guys, and most likely since your not going to be gaining many levels in a real run, still fighting the jerks.

To be fair, I really hate cake mix chasing, but for bandits you need to be level 9+ to bump them, and for shy guys you need to be level 14. By the end of chapter 7 I'm pretty sure in a SS you'll be 8 or 9 minimum, while to reach 14 you'd probably be getting into a few too many random fights. I will say this, rather then using scare/fright jars, I do think that you should be fighting to gain those extra levels, segmented it is easy to use luck manipulation or dodge every enemy, in a SS sometimes shit happens.

I'm also really really bad at Smash Attack, I think I "win" 2/3 the time, but I generally win between 1 and 3 seconds :\

Refund is probably a must in a 100% SS, with it I believe you can use hot shrooms in battle (good hp healer, small bit of fp) through pretty much the whole game and still make money (10 gp for volt shroom, sell for 15 gp; 75% of 15 is 11 gp rounded down and 12 gp rounded up, it isn't much (nor does it profit as much as any free item) but it is a profit if you need an emergency healing item).

As for money I believe you can get 4 Jammin' Jelly's and 2 Ultra shrooms (without the 100 desert block) before Bowsers castle. So 2 Jelly pop (so only visiting there once for the calculator and 2 mix's rather then farming), and 2 Jelly Ultra sell for about 600 coins? 4 Repel Gel at 30 each, and 8 whacka's bump at 64 gp each and the total for those comes too around 1232 coins although personally I think the repel gel are better off being saved for boss battles (end of Bowser's castle Jr. Troopa/Bowser wouldn't be fun underleveled after well over 8 hours).

Although sweet shroom's are worth a lot I'm not sure if they'd be faster then just life shrooms, cake mix is really irritating to get (especially with the probability of being underlevelled) so maybe just life shroom's (which have 20 gp profit if you buy the volt shroom, although I'm not 100% sure of all the shrooms that can be used as an ingredient, I believe it's super shroom+), but farming the desert is pretty quick too after money money, south of the oasis is the bandit lair, they drop a lot of coins and there are 60-80 coins in coin blocks there for the first trip. If you pray for Dry Fruit while changing screens to get them to respawn those sell for something like 15-20 gp ea themselves.

Quizmo took something like 30-45 minutes longer then he did in comparison with my segmented I honestly think my hopping way (go through the three pipes in the sewer until he appears) is the fastest way to work with him, maybe in a segmented you can try pulling off the landing zone manipulation, but I think that only works if he was last gotten anywhere EXCEPT goomba village.

I agree with the Jump Attack comment, I think at most you can try it with really low money once or twice if your desperate, but you are better off farming items in the desert. I should mention Smash Attack is little better. Lets say in 1:15 you can play two games of Smash Attack, you could either: lose 20 gp, lose a few gp (because you can "win" and still end up with less money), break even, profit by 20-30 coins (pretty consistent TBH, but losing is still really easy too), or profit by a few hundred coins (good luck required, no matter how much skill you have your first few hits need luck, and there are 2 "screens" worth of blocks unless you have the best eyes in the world your not going to see every Peach fast enough, you need to randomly hit and hope for the best). In the desert lets say you can make two trips to the bandit lair, you can make 30-40 coins, bad luck gets you something like 10-20 coins, exceptional luck will net you 50-60 coins and dry fruit (20 more). Notice the lack of lost coins? I honestly don't think that Smash Attack is good enough in a SS, not as risky as Jump Attack (at least with skill you can still at least break even every time), but if you have a bad run and hit a few fuzzies your out 10 gp. Collecting Cake Mixes in that time you could either be finishing cooking by 1:15, still chasing the retarded shy guys, and most likely since your not going to be gaining many levels in a real run, still fighting the jerks.

To be fair, I really hate cake mix chasing, but for bandits you need to be level 9+ to bump them, and for shy guys you need to be level 14. By the end of chapter 7 I'm pretty sure in a SS you'll be 8 or 9 minimum, while to reach 14 you'd probably be getting into a few too many random fights. I will say this, rather then using scare/fright jars, I do think that you should be fighting to gain those extra levels, segmented it is easy to use luck manipulation or dodge every enemy, in a SS sometimes shit happens.

I'm also really really bad at Smash Attack, I think I "win" 2/3 the time, but I generally win between 1 and 3 seconds :\

NoiseCrash

2012-01-24 12:27:13 pm

@_@

Ha, it's funny that we're using this thread now again. I remember reading this back when I was starting to work on my run.

It seems like this game's been shortened even more since then with some glitches, we always just assumed it would have to be by the book. Obviously once 0xwas gets his route translated that'll probably be made even more clear. I've gotten a bit rusty when it comes to this game after having been away from it for a while but hopefully we can use that to pool together the best we can get at the moment, and after that another new run (or two, or three). Been a lot of talk about SS but I'm also interested in just how low we could get it with an any% segmented run... I'm also curious to see if anyone's thought up improvements for the rest of the "non-glitched" parts of the game.

Also if this is going to be used as an actual planning thread it'd be nice if someone could ask for first-post duties and update the title, link to most recent discussion, etc. Seeing "planning sub-4:40" is a little strange haha.

Ha, it's funny that we're using this thread now again. I remember reading this back when I was starting to work on my run.

It seems like this game's been shortened even more since then with some glitches, we always just assumed it would have to be by the book. Obviously once 0xwas gets his route translated that'll probably be made even more clear. I've gotten a bit rusty when it comes to this game after having been away from it for a while but hopefully we can use that to pool together the best we can get at the moment, and after that another new run (or two, or three). Been a lot of talk about SS but I'm also interested in just how low we could get it with an any% segmented run... I'm also curious to see if anyone's thought up improvements for the rest of the "non-glitched" parts of the game.

Also if this is going to be used as an actual planning thread it'd be nice if someone could ask for first-post duties and update the title, link to most recent discussion, etc. Seeing "planning sub-4:40" is a little strange haha.

André

2012-01-24 01:02:22 pm

Main Work!!!

If I could refind my note on this run, I was working on a SS of this that include the new glitches but aside from this I found a couple of small improvements but they were very negligible because the old planning was almost perfect(the other improvement were saving at top 10 seconds not very much more than that but in numbers at the end aside from the glitch, I was able to save a big 10 minutes Smiley

).

Raiker Z

Edit history:

Raiker Z: 2012-01-24 01:13:14 pm

2012-01-24 01:03:59 pm

Agreed, I'm trying to see if I can glitch out Sushi in Chapter 5 (skip Yoshi Kids, and the Yoshi Chief), and use Parakarry to skip parts in Chapter 6. I'm not a TASer though (that and if I remember the game has issues with emmulators) so not sure if I'll ever find anything. I'm very excited for 0xwas' route, I know he's way better at me full game, even if I'm pretty decent at segments of it. I'd like to help if anyone is up for recording themselves, for the moment it seems that I can't get up to quality standards of SDA for any of my runs (my NSMBW seems to be missing something important too, that and the quality after anri-chan looks horrible).

If anyone is up for running this I think we could easily pull the run below 3:30, maybe even pull out a sub 3:20, I could do a chapter-by-chapter write up using NoiseCrash's and my runs to come up with a plan. Hell I could even probably try a fun-run and put it up as a guide/comparison for whoever wants to try recording an improvement, well maybe.

I'm sure between all of us we can come up with improvements, and Andre^ I'd love to see the notes on this, I can try to dig up my 100% notes for us and see what can be worked on there.

EDIT: Segmented 100% : http://www.youtube.com/user/IzikiZara#grid/user/8F753B3D6C8CFDE1

Agreed, I'm trying to see if I can glitch out Sushi in Chapter 5 (skip Yoshi Kids, and the Yoshi Chief), and use Parakarry to skip parts in Chapter 6. I'm not a TASer though (that and if I remember the game has issues with emmulators) so not sure if I'll ever find anything. I'm very excited for 0xwas' route, I know he's way better at me full game, even if I'm pretty decent at segments of it. I'd like to help if anyone is up for recording themselves, for the moment it seems that I can't get up to quality standards of SDA for any of my runs (my NSMBW seems to be missing something important too, that and the quality after anri-chan looks horrible).

If anyone is up for running this I think we could easily pull the run below 3:30, maybe even pull out a sub 3:20, I could do a chapter-by-chapter write up using NoiseCrash's and my runs to come up with a plan. Hell I could even probably try a fun-run and put it up as a guide/comparison for whoever wants to try recording an improvement, well maybe.

I'm sure between all of us we can come up with improvements, and Andre^ I'd love to see the notes on this, I can try to dig up my 100% notes for us and see what can be worked on there.

EDIT: Segmented 100% : http://www.youtube.com/user/IzikiZara#grid/user/8F753B3D6C8CFDE1

André

Edit history:

André: 2012-01-24 01:09:03 pm

2012-01-24 01:05:22 pm

Main Work!!!

Yup, if there no one else that want to try this, I might restart considering a SS of this.

Edit: can you give me the link to your current 100% seg. speedrun.

NoiseCrash

2012-01-24 01:17:16 pm

@_@

When finding new places to glitch Sushi, it looks like the reason that glitch works is because you actually "jump" from the pier onto solid land you could stand on normally. If we can find any other pier setups like that it may be possible to do something there as well. Unfortunately it loses some potential for some huge skips since you get Sushi so late in the game... imagine using the pier in Toad Town to skip straight to later chapters early on. Too bad there's not a way to skip that damn chain-pulling "puzzle" in Bowser's Castle. Tongue

Skipping the jungle segment though would be really nice, eliminate a few annoying Spooks along the way too to preserve runner sanity. There might be something in Flower Fields too but I doubt it's possible to even pull it off there.

And Andre yeah, that route was actually like the sixth revision, and Floogal even said that route was basically just pushing it to the extreme; it was first said that it was too luck-dependent for a non-TAS but I guess I'm a sucker for punishment. I'd be surprised if there was really much of anything he didn't think of.

When finding new places to glitch Sushi, it looks like the reason that glitch works is because you actually "jump" from the pier onto solid land you could stand on normally. If we can find any other pier setups like that it may be possible to do something there as well. Unfortunately it loses some potential for some huge skips since you get Sushi so late in the game... imagine using the pier in Toad Town to skip straight to later chapters early on. Too bad there's not a way to skip that damn chain-pulling "puzzle" in Bowser's Castle. :P Skipping the jungle segment though would be really nice, eliminate a few annoying Spooks along the way too to preserve runner sanity. There might be something in Flower Fields too but I doubt it's possible to even pull it off there.

And Andre yeah, that route was actually like the sixth revision, and Floogal even said that route was basically just pushing it to the extreme; it was first said that it was too luck-dependent for a non-TAS but I guess I'm a sucker for punishment. I'd be surprised if there was really much of anything he didn't think of.

André

Edit history:

André: 2012-01-24 01:25:36 pm

2012-01-24 01:19:59 pm

Main Work!!!

Just an example there: since you grabbed the Goomnut in your second segment, you don't need to heal yourself up before the battle you would have finish the battle at 1 HP and at the end of star summit you would have been completely heal up. Also, right after and before the star summit there's a brick just aside the collapsed false bridge pillar you can go on this one to triple spin instead of jumping and the route is also faster. these are small details but it's something you can consider in a segmented run, in my SS I would try to do it and if I fail I wouldn't restart for this. That's only small examples, I'll continue watching your speedrun.

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2012-01-24 01:42:45 pm

With all the new glitches and stuff discovered, how long would a SS any% be?

Raiker Z

Edit history:

Raiker Z: 2012-01-24 01:59:26 pm

2012-01-24 01:58:26 pm

I think the glitch is more based off of the boundary of the land "pushing" you back into the dock, since you cant stand/swim on it, under the dock is the water texture so after you get "pushed" the game recognizes the water under the dock as the nearest point where sushi can swim and places you there. But this is just what I think, someone who knows more probably has a better explanation, or has proof yours is correct and mine sucks Tongue

Idk about chapter 6, it's just this feeling that somewhere you can use Parakarry to skip a section of the level.

I shouldn't have healed until SSS after the Goomnut, if I did then wow... how did that escape my notice. Right now my run is more of a guide since the 100% is in a file format that SDA won't accept, and I currently don't plan to improve it because I don't think my computer can make anything using anri-chan at a quality that is acceptable, the recording I use now cuts something out, according the the quality test, and higher quality is too much for my computer so the recording comes out looking like crap. I'm pretty sure it's just my computer, but I don't have the money to get a new one, so for now my speedruns will stay on youtube and are a nice guide for anyone who wants to make a speedrun.

I'll estimate for you Naegleria:

Sushi Ch.7 - For an any% this is huge, I'm not going to try to guess closely but easily over 3 minutes saved here. Especially since when I did the glitch in segment 40 of my run I didn't understand the glitch well. I think it would actually be faster to fight Jr. Troopa with sushi after activating the glitch, and enter a fight and run on the first part with the tunnel because entering and exiting a fight with Sushi as your party member lets Mario run on the ground, so you can use speedy spin and not have to mess with as many stair cases as I did. You re-enter the glitch when you leave the area though. Also since Mario is technically still on Sushi after the fight (when you can use speedy spin and run like normal) the enemies wont chase him, so you don't need to worry about dodging the ice Piranha's :D.

This glitch cuts off: Starborn Valley, Mayor Penguin revisit for bucket, The snowman dance/open door sequence, Monstar fight, dooplighost fight/talk, and enemy dodging. I think its close to 5-6 minutes saved, but I think 3 minutes is a reasonable guess for now.

Bowser's Castle - In an any% it saves between 2 and 3 minutes. The 100% you need to get the badge that is in the block anyway, but for any% you can skip that part. I'm basing my estimate off of the time saved according to my glitch video, it was around 4 minutes and I think getting the badge took me an extra 45 seconds to minute and a half in my run, so it comes out to 2:30-3:15 ish, along with the chance for an error on my part in time recording I'm going with 2-3 minutes.

As for other glitches IDK, I'm sure someone has new glitches idk about yet.

EDIT: Oh right the question was how long would a SS any% be. Well with those glitches I'd say a sub 4 is possible if someone tried hard enough, but sub 4:15 would be good for a start.

I think the glitch is more based off of the boundary of the land "pushing" you back into the dock, since you cant stand/swim on it, under the dock is the water texture so after you get "pushed" the game recognizes the water under the dock as the nearest point where sushi can swim and places you there. But this is just what I think, someone who knows more probably has a better explanation, or has proof yours is correct and mine sucks :P

Idk about chapter 6, it's just this feeling that somewhere you can use Parakarry to skip a section of the level.

I shouldn't have healed until SSS after the Goomnut, if I did then wow... how did that escape my notice. Right now my run is more of a guide since the 100% is in a file format that SDA won't accept, and I currently don't plan to improve it because I don't think my computer can make anything using anri-chan at a quality that is acceptable, the recording I use now cuts something out, according the the quality test, and higher quality is too much for my computer so the recording comes out looking like crap. I'm pretty sure it's just my computer, but I don't have the money to get a new one, so for now my speedruns will stay on youtube and are a nice guide for anyone who wants to make a speedrun.

I'll estimate for you Naegleria:

Sushi Ch.7 - For an any% this is huge, I'm not going to try to guess closely but easily over 3 minutes saved here. Especially since when I did the glitch in segment 40 of my run I didn't understand the glitch well. I think it would actually be faster to fight Jr. Troopa with sushi after activating the glitch, and enter a fight and run on the first part with the tunnel because entering and exiting a fight with Sushi as your party member lets Mario run on the ground, so you can use speedy spin and not have to mess with as many stair cases as I did. You re-enter the glitch when you leave the area though. Also since Mario is technically still on Sushi after the fight (when you can use speedy spin and run like normal) the enemies wont chase him, so you don't need to worry about dodging the ice Piranha's :D.

This glitch cuts off: Starborn Valley, Mayor Penguin revisit for bucket, The snowman dance/open door sequence, Monstar fight, dooplighost fight/talk, and enemy dodging. I think its close to 5-6 minutes saved, but I think 3 minutes is a reasonable guess for now.

Bowser's Castle - In an any% it saves between 2 and 3 minutes. The 100% you need to get the badge that is in the block anyway, but for any% you can skip that part. I'm basing my estimate off of the time saved according to my glitch video, it was around 4 minutes and I think getting the badge took me an extra 45 seconds to minute and a half in my run, so it comes out to 2:30-3:15 ish, along with the chance for an error on my part in time recording I'm going with 2-3 minutes.

As for other glitches IDK, I'm sure someone has new glitches idk about yet.

EDIT: Oh right the question was how long would a SS any% be. Well with those glitches I'd say a sub 4 is possible if someone tried hard enough, but sub 4:15 would be good for a start.

NoiseCrash

Edit history:

NoiseCrash: 2012-01-24 02:13:06 pm

NoiseCrash: 2012-01-24 02:11:27 pm

2012-01-24 02:07:47 pm

@_@

Quote from Raiker Z:

I think the glitch is more based off of the boundary of the land "pushing" you back into the dock, since you cant stand/swim on it, under the dock is the water texture so after you get "pushed" the game recognizes the water under the dock as the nearest point where sushi can swim and places you there.

It could be, like I said I've gotten rusty so I'm not sure exactly where the land/water boundary is. I just assumed since you were getting on Sushi the game essentially put you into "swim" mode, and if you happened to be on land it would just act as water with far less strict boundaries. Could be it's more along the lines of an OOB/zip type thing.

Quote from Raiker Z:

Bowser's Castle

Not to mention this saves a TON of headache in an SS... no tricky platform jumps and no navigating through the dark. That section is easily the hardest part to get right in the whole run. In an SS you probably would take it a lot more carefully so it theoretically saves even more in that situation.

(edit)

While we're on the subject of glitches, there's something I found in practice years ago... in the volcano, if you beat Kolorado to the last junction before Lava Pirahna (right before you go down some stairs to a save point I think), skipping the last "The treasure is this way!" dialogue, and beat Lava Pirahna, the game glitches out and won't trigger the escape scene. The camera stays zoomed in to the lava "circle" where the boss was and you can run around. I've always wondered if there was anything you could do with that since I believe it's actually possible to go into the next room... but back then I had actually thought my game was broke and just fixed it and went on. I might look into it at some point just because.

[quote="Raiker Z"]I think the glitch is more based off of the boundary of the land "pushing" you back into the dock, since you cant stand/swim on it, under the dock is the water texture so after you get "pushed" the game recognizes the water under the dock as the nearest point where sushi can swim and places you there.[/quote]

It could be, like I said I've gotten rusty so I'm not sure exactly where the land/water boundary is. I just assumed since you were getting on Sushi the game essentially put you into "swim" mode, and if you happened to be on land it would just act as water with far less strict boundaries. Could be it's more along the lines of an OOB/zip type thing.

[quote="Raiker Z"]Bowser's Castle[/quote]

Not to mention this saves a TON of headache in an SS... no tricky platform jumps and no navigating through the dark. That section is easily the hardest part to get right in the whole run. In an SS you probably would take it a lot more carefully so it theoretically saves even more in that situation.

(edit)

While we're on the subject of glitches, there's something I found in practice years ago... in the volcano, if you beat Kolorado to the last junction before Lava Pirahna (right before you go down some stairs to a save point I think), skipping the last "The treasure is this way!" dialogue, and beat Lava Pirahna, the game glitches out and won't trigger the escape scene. The camera stays zoomed in to the lava "circle" where the boss was and you can run around. I've always wondered if there was anything you could do with that since I believe it's actually possible to go into the next room... but back then I had actually thought my game was broke and just fixed it and went on. I might look into it at some point just because.

Raiker Z

2012-01-24 02:22:13 pm

I think it does act like water, but the boundaries for land are far weaker then in the water. The water boundaries go "down" so that you can't pull out into land with them, but since you cant dive on land the boundaries don't go far underground which is why you can go OOB with it. Sadly the walls in the water seem to be one way, so if you fall back into water you have to glitch out all over again.

As a side note I just timed it, getting into a fight and using speedy spin in the hallway room is about 5-6 seconds faster then using Sushi alone, not much but considering it saves you the staircase headaches, worth it.

I agree, wish someone told me about the glitch before those segments, even cutting them into two segments because of the badge trip I think it took me something like 300 tries, big big headache that wouldn't be reasonable to pull off in a SS.

I actually read about that in your comments somewhere (probably on info page, or discussion) sounds interesting, do you think the game will "reset" back to normal if you enter the next room, or do you think it'll crash entirely? If it resets to normal then you could potentially save like half a minute or more by skipping Kolorado's text in fight and pre-fight. I think I'll test it out. I have my random SS fun-run that should be saved at the end of chapter 3 or 4, so should be close.

I think it does act like water, but the boundaries for land are far weaker then in the water. The water boundaries go "down" so that you can't pull out into land with them, but since you cant dive on land the boundaries don't go far underground which is why you can go OOB with it. Sadly the walls in the water seem to be one way, so if you fall back into water you have to glitch out all over again.

As a side note I just timed it, getting into a fight and using speedy spin in the hallway room is about 5-6 seconds faster then using Sushi alone, not much but considering it saves you the staircase headaches, worth it.

I agree, wish someone told me about the glitch before those segments, even cutting them into two segments because of the badge trip I think it took me something like 300 tries, big big headache that wouldn't be reasonable to pull off in a SS.

I actually read about that in your comments somewhere (probably on info page, or discussion) sounds interesting, do you think the game will "reset" back to normal if you enter the next room, or do you think it'll crash entirely? If it resets to normal then you could potentially save like half a minute or more by skipping Kolorado's text in fight and pre-fight. I think I'll test it out. I have my random SS fun-run that should be saved at the end of chapter 3 or 4, so should be close.

NoiseCrash

2012-01-24 02:42:16 pm

@_@

Yeah, that's what I was guessing. Like it has the bottom boundary to float on where the land is but nothing or very little if you get below that.

If I remember correctly, you go into the next room but with no music, no lava rising behind you, no Kolorado following you, etc... I wonder how the boundaries and programming would be when you're not in "escape" mode, what it will do with the scene (or lack of scene) at the end, etc. I don't know if there's potential for anything, probably not to be honest, but I've always been curious. I wish I had explored it more back then. Fun fact I think if you head back into the boss room afterwards you actually re-fight the boss still in glitched mode, giving you an endless loop. Useless but curious.

Raiker Z

Edit history:

Raiker Z: 2012-01-25 05:15:12 pm

2012-01-25 02:45:07 pm

So I tested it out, and you can't seem to do anything with this glitch. On the VC (I only kept the game gave the 64 to my sister when I moved) at least. Kolorado shows up EVERYWHERE that he is supposed to (both in fight and after) but the game stalls out and the Star Spirit never shows up. You cannot get to the room beyond the Lava Piranha for some reason there is an invisible wall. You can backtrack to exit, but once you leave the room everything resets. Yes, it respawns the boss too. The glitch is useless except in proving NOT to use it in a run, until we can figure out how to break it at least.

EDIT: Video will take awhile, my recorder wants to be a jerk and not sync sound with video, I'm not going to spend time I need for other things to figure out why its doing this right now so I'll put off the video, not that it would've shown alot.

0xwas

2012-01-26 04:31:23 am

yuri 4 life

http://pastebin.com/39XmMfk3
any% route translation finished. I noticed Japanese is old route :p Basically this route focuses on stable not speed.
This is my latest route so far.

NoiseCrash

2012-01-26 07:37:59 am

@_@

Raiker Z: Hm, I guess I could just be remembering wrong but I swear I remember exiting to the next area and coming back to refight the boss. It'd be interesting if this was N64-only but it could've been that was the previous room I went to. I'll play around with it later. My original guess was that it was probably useless but it never hurts to check.

0xwas: Awesome, thanks for doing that work for us. I've skimmed through it quickly and I'm liking the balance of speed vs. security. Over the weekend I may try to go through it using that route and see if I come up with anything to try to tweak it towards more speed without hurting security too much that it's unreasonable.

Raiker Z

2012-01-26 09:09:44 am

Sweet, I've skimmed it a bit something to note about chapter 1:

Get the fright jar from the block, use it on the double paratroopa battle. Even if you only scare one off I think it's faster then if you fight them, and you only fail both rarely. I'm not 100% sure if I used this in the race awhile back, but I probably did, it only costs a little bit of time if you fail both and it saves a nice bit of time if you get both (paratroopas are a pain).

Another thing is your fight with the koopa bros/bullet bills. Koopa bros are easiest (and extremely fast) with 2x Power Jump 1x Bomb on Bowser? and then Bomb the Koopa bros stack (autofall). Then POW block/fireflower from Mario with a dead/switch turn from partner. The bullet blaster fight sounds like it'd be faster though, so maybe we should look into that for the segmented run.

I'll try to fiddle with my recorder a bit and find out why it isn't working today so I can show you, this would be extremely interesting if it was an N64 only trick because as far as I can tell VC/N64 are pretty identical. (although I feel like the VC has a bit more lag in places compared to what I remember from N64).

0xwas - I'll read through the route and modify with parts I think would be fixed (without extreme luck involved) would you like me to post the SS notes I come up with on here so you can find what mistakes I make to have a better route? I cant translate it (at least without using Google and we all know how that would end up) but I can try to make it as clear as possible.

This last one is calling out to everyone but NoiseCrash especially: If I were to come out with a revised Segment plan to improve whats on the site, would anyone attempt it? I'm pretty sure we can pull off sub 3:30 easily enough, and I'd like to see a nice strong PM run.

Oh yeah, this is a comment about the toad town OOB glitching, someone (I think it's on the 100%) said they had a method to do that, but never posted how or proof, they just disappeared, not sure if they were just saying it to get hopes up or not, but there is a chance it is possible (hopefully they didn't mean the infinite falling glitches, I can do those and they don't help)

Sweet, I've skimmed it a bit something to note about chapter 1:

Get the fright jar from the block, use it on the double paratroopa battle. Even if you only scare one off I think it's faster then if you fight them, and you only fail both rarely. I'm not 100% sure if I used this in the race awhile back, but I probably did, it only costs a little bit of time if you fail both and it saves a nice bit of time if you get both (paratroopas are a pain).

Another thing is your fight with the koopa bros/bullet bills. Koopa bros are easiest (and extremely fast) with 2x Power Jump 1x Bomb on Bowser? and then Bomb the Koopa bros stack (autofall). Then POW block/fireflower from Mario with a dead/switch turn from partner. The bullet blaster fight sounds like it'd be faster though, so maybe we should look into that for the segmented run.

I'll try to fiddle with my recorder a bit and find out why it isn't working today so I can show you, this would be extremely interesting if it was an N64 only trick because as far as I can tell VC/N64 are pretty identical. (although I feel like the VC has a bit more lag in places compared to what I remember from N64).

0xwas - I'll read through the route and modify with parts I think would be fixed (without extreme luck involved) would you like me to post the SS notes I come up with on here so you can find what mistakes I make to have a better route? I cant translate it (at least without using Google and we all know how that would end up) but I can try to make it as clear as possible.

This last one is calling out to everyone but NoiseCrash especially: If I were to come out with a revised Segment plan to improve whats on the site, would anyone attempt it? I'm pretty sure we can pull off sub 3:30 easily enough, and I'd like to see a nice strong PM run.

Oh yeah, this is a comment about the toad town OOB glitching, someone (I think it's on the 100%) said they had a method to do that, but never posted how or proof, they just disappeared, not sure if they were just saying it to get hopes up or not, but there is a chance it is possible (hopefully they didn't mean the infinite falling glitches, I can do those and they don't help)

André

Edit history:

André: 2012-01-26 10:20:03 am

2012-01-26 10:14:08 am

Main Work!!!

First, I'll be doing the SS for this and maybe Noisecrash could do the segmented(please Tongue

). For the time estimate, I won't stop my SS until I got sub3h30 so I think a segmented run could probably hit 3H15 with perfection. The trick on Toad town need the third level jump, I check it out with everything else and it doesn't work and it's no longer useful at that moment(when you have the third jump).

If you absolutely want to see it, I'll restart playing Paper Mario tomorrow to do a plan of my SS(the plan will be a segmented run by chapter(which will look awful since I didn't play this game for 6 months :S )), and I'll finish a game before the end of the week and I'll show the record the glitch.

NoiseCrash

Edit history:

NoiseCrash: 2012-01-26 10:34:18 am

2012-01-26 10:33:06 am

@_@

I can't promise that I'll do anything, but I'd think about it. Honestly I don't really have the time to do a lot of heavy route-work so if you want to work up a segmented route I can help with smaller things every now and then. The good thing about a segmented run is it can be done over a long period of time, so it may be slow going but I'd say it's at least feasible for me to try it. I don't know if Floogal's old route is still in text form anywhere... I may PM him if he still lurks the forum at all to give you a good baseline to work with to edit rather than have to start anew. Either way it couldn't hurt to come up with one whether I do it or not, it might attract others to try if there's already a lot of planning put into it.

Andre, I personally think you may be setting the bar a little too high. It's good to have high ambitions but the highest known RTA time right now was like 4:08 I think, and an SS strategy is quite a bit different from the segmented which can just use Close Call/Spook with guaranteed success. I'd say try it out a few times and once you get a few solid attempts in you'll get a feel for what time to aim for. I'm not saying it's not possible because I don't know, but starting out saying you won't stop until you get < 3:30 might lead to a lot of frustration.

I can't promise that I'll do anything, but I'd think about it. Honestly I don't really have the time to do a lot of heavy route-work so if you want to work up a segmented route I can help with smaller things every now and then. The good thing about a segmented run is it can be done over a long period of time, so it may be slow going but I'd say it's at least feasible for me to try it. I don't know if Floogal's old route is still in text form anywhere... I may PM him if he still lurks the forum at all to give you a good baseline to work with to edit rather than have to start anew. Either way it couldn't hurt to come up with one whether I do it or not, it might attract others to try if there's already a lot of planning put into it.

Andre, I personally think you may be setting the bar a little too high. It's good to have high ambitions but the highest known RTA time right now was like 4:08 I think, and an SS strategy is quite a bit different from the segmented which can just use Close Call/Spook with guaranteed success. I'd say try it out a few times and once you get a few solid attempts in you'll get a feel for what time to aim for. I'm not saying it's not possible because I don't know, but starting out saying you won't stop until you get < 3:30 might lead to a lot of frustration.

André

2012-01-26 10:36:56 am

Main Work!!!

I fact the 3:30 is a very high bar I agree but I can't really do an estimate of this at the moment, it's pretty much still in progress I'll still use a couple of luck base strat but not all of them. I agree that 3:30 was exaggerated. the 4:08 is a SS or a segmented run??

0xwas

Edit history:

0xwas: 2012-01-26 10:41:36 am

2012-01-26 10:40:42 am

yuri 4 life

NoiseCrash, Raiker Z
Thanks for reading. Go ahead pointing out possible improvements. Sometimes I try to find improvements or mistakes but I may overlook those though.

If you guys plan to do run actually, this should be useful for SS and segmented because it's not hard. But perhaps it's already known.

4:08 is my SS anyway. This will be around 3:55 in SDA timing. I timed ED too in 4:08.