Thief 2: The Metal Age

2013-11-23 12:08:46 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

Haven't had time to come around lately; work has kept me way more busy than I would like.

Still practicing!

Blackmail: Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. It depends on if I want to turn around and knock him out or not.

Life: Not while frogbeasting, but right as I drop down the shaft. I'll run right off the edge, pressing the button as I start falling, instead of stopping to hit the button.

Cargo: I'm not sure. I think the key management comes from if I accidentally pick up something I don't want (breath potion). I haven't done it much, either, so practice should make perfect.

Sabotage: It is faster, I believe, but I was having an experimental thought at the time, thinking it might be faster to just club them out. I now know that it isn't the case. Tongue

Anyways, still practicing, work sucks, I need more time and sleep. Smiley

LotBlind

2013-11-23 08:54:31 am

Cargo: Do you have time in the underwater segments to check your inventory. Just drink the breath potion then! Smiley

Good luck with things!

SocratesJohnson

2013-11-25 10:54:18 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I've been fighting with myself since recording the run, and not being able to even finish one since then, and have decided to submit.

What I'm caught up with:

1. Ambush! - Missing the jump to the fountain
2. Kidnap - The whole mine incident.
3. Sabotage - in general. Tongue

I've been trying, but alas, free time has escaped me! I really, really, really, really, (really) hope that this 4 day weekend I have will allow me some time to try and get a better run. We shall see. Smiley

Also - Cargo:

By the time I'm in the water, I've dropped what I don't need while on the initial elevator. The item problem, as far as I can tell, comes from the storage compartments, unless you're referring to something else.

LotBlind

2013-11-26 11:56:18 am

Nah that's what I meant about Cargo. If you don't get an improvement, me and I'm sure Dark will take a very objective look at what we're seeing and try to be impartial...

WingedKitsune

2013-11-26 11:59:45 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I might start getting into doing glitchless runs of the Thief series. They're one of my most beloved gaming experiences. Sure, they aint perfect, but they're fun. Smiley

SocratesJohnson

2013-11-27 08:46:51 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

Good luck, Kitsune! Would love to see more people running this, or any Thief games. Smiley

LotBlind

2013-11-27 12:50:47 pm

Winged, I hate to say this, but you're off to a bad start. What the..?

Quote from WingedKitsune:

Sure, they aint perfect

You should probably come up with a definition for glitchless to see if we're all agreed on what it should be. If you might also consider submitting something later.

SocratesJohnson

2013-11-27 01:56:56 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

What I think of when I hear, "glitchless," is no OOB (Framed, Life of the Party), no frogbeasting (falling - I would say blowing them up is ok), no using the key through the wall on Shipping, and no gate clip on Sabotage.

Am I missing any?

Also, how did I miss that slag on Thief!? For shame!

LotBlind

2013-11-28 09:37:16 am

slag? The pre-order discount?

So if you wanna hear my opinion, I would only count the gate clip, key-through-wall and maybe frogbeast falling as glitchless. It sounds like a very elusive definition though. I have no idea what the precedents, other games with similar glitches, would be. I think "no glitches" is always difficult to define. Like is landing softly using frogbeasts a glitch or just a property of the game's physics? Arrows flying in a straight line is a property of the game physics. There is no objective way to define it...

If you don't care whether it's SDA or not, you can as always do what you like, but if you wanted a clear-cut SDA category something like 100% would be relatively easier to define.

I finally caught Dark's stream yesterday! He's getting really good. He's on your level, I'd say Socrates. What are you going to do about it? You know even if he doesn't submit, his runs will be part of setting the standards for whatever you're submitting to be measured against.

He does mission 2 slightly differently and I'm thinking it's gotta save half a second his way. He's not picking up the loot from the chest in Gillian's (whatever the art guy is called) upstairs but instead grabs a statuette from inside a crate near where you start the level on his way back around to the inventor's shop. The crate is on the side of the corner where you go initially.

There were a few other differences from your strats maybe... He didn't get to the later missions unfortunately.

slag? The pre-order discount?

So if you wanna hear my opinion, I would only count the gate clip, key-through-wall and maybe frogbeast falling as glitchless. It sounds like a very elusive definition though. I have no idea what the precedents, other games with similar glitches, would be. I think "no glitches" is always difficult to define. Like is landing softly using frogbeasts a glitch or just a property of the game's physics? Arrows flying in a straight line is a property of the game physics. There is no objective way to define it...

If you don't care whether it's SDA or not, you can as always do what you like, but if you wanted a clear-cut SDA category something like 100% would be relatively easier to define.

I finally caught Dark's stream yesterday! He's getting really good. He's on your level, I'd say Socrates. What are you going to do about it? You know even if he doesn't submit, his runs will be part of setting the standards for whatever you're submitting to be measured against.

He does mission 2 slightly differently and I'm thinking it's gotta save half a second his way. He's not picking up the loot from the chest in Gillian's (whatever the art guy is called) upstairs but instead grabs a statuette from inside a crate near where you start the level on his way back around to the inventor's shop. The crate is on the side of the corner where you go initially.

There were a few other differences from your strats maybe... He didn't get to the later missions unfortunately.

WingedKitsune

Edit history:

WingedKitsune: 2013-11-28 11:26:19 am

2013-11-28 11:23:01 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I'd assume 100% runs would be, for Dark Project and Metal Age, All Loot, All Knock Outs/Kills, and all pick pockets? Something along those lines?

I would need a good FAQ to study off of if I want to do that category. But then again, they have some good FAQS at Thief-TheCircle. So if I really wanna do 100%, I probably can.

DarkDEVASTAT10N

2013-11-29 05:36:54 am

I'd say 100% to be all objectives, all loot. Anything else would be weird. Would 100% also require you to run on Expert, because it has more objectives?

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2013-11-29 08:30:50 am

2013-11-29 08:26:25 am

I'd like to think 100% should be on expert because it's true that it won't truly feel 100% without it the way the game lays its content out.

For 100%, the choice between SS and ILs is trivial in a sense because you're getting all the loot anyway. So there's no separate "money" category.

The most objective measure for what should be counted in the 100% comes from what the game itself keeps track of. In addition, it's only the stuff that shows the maximum possible in the mission summary so this would include loot and objectives but also secrets I should think. There's also a question of whether to do all the secret objectives too... I'd like to say yes even though they're not listed anywhere. There could be a problem with that if someone suddenly found there was another secret objective somewhere but I somehow doubt it.

Ultimately, though, it's the game community that defines each category. I think it should always be a somewhat communal decision even though the runners' choices often create the tradition.

About planning such a run out: all the loot is easy to find with loot maps, the secrets likewise. Maybe our other runners can tell you how complete or trustworthy the item listings are though because that stuff the game doesn't keep track of.

I'd like to think 100% should be on expert because it's true that it won't truly feel 100% without it the way the game lays its content out.

For 100%, the choice between SS and ILs is trivial in a sense because you're getting all the loot anyway. So there's no separate "money" category.

The most objective measure for what should be counted in the 100% comes from what the game itself keeps track of. In addition, it's only the stuff that shows the maximum possible in the mission summary so this would include loot and objectives but also secrets I should think. There's also a question of whether to do all the secret objectives too... I'd like to say yes even though they're not listed anywhere. There could be a problem with that if someone suddenly found there was another secret objective somewhere but I somehow doubt it.

Ultimately, though, it's the game community that defines each category. I think it should always be a somewhat communal decision even though the runners' choices often create the tradition.

About planning such a run out: all the loot is easy to find with loot maps, the secrets likewise. Maybe our other runners can tell you how complete or trustworthy the item listings are though because that stuff the game doesn't keep track of.

SocratesJohnson

2013-11-29 01:37:43 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I meant, "slag," as in, "insult." Just a jest towards Kit. Wink

I caught some of Dark's run as well the other day. It's just a shame that it's so early in the day during work for me, so I don't always have time to jump on, but I'm glad to catch him when I can. Smiley

I know I've read that there is some unobtainable loot on at least Interference, and I think another one somewhere. I haven't tested with the latest patches, however, but on Interference, there are apparently some coins stuck in a wall that should be on a ledge over the stairs up from the kitchen to the first floor. The loot maps have helped a lot, and I think they're fairly accurate on Thief - The Circle.

I think I'll try to stream more, than go for recording a better run at the moment so I stop taking it so seriously and try to have some fun with my practice. Smiley

LotBlind

2013-11-30 03:38:56 am

Yeah that unobtainable loot means you'd have to consider which version to use. But you have to do that anyway. I think you can submit a run on any version but it will be obsoleted if someone does a similarly good run on a version that's faster. As for those coins, if you choose the earlier version where they're unobtainable, you obviously don't have to collect them. Doom 2 100% runs have the same problem with getting some of the secrets. And yeah it was patched by 1.18.

Yeah I agree you should practice more swag stuff! Isn't that what you just said?

livingalchemist

2013-12-01 05:08:22 pm

Hey, I want to offer a bounty for a SS Expert run for this game. I'd like some help for framing the requirements. The idea is it would be a Christmas present for my brother so it's more important that we could watch it together than that it's perfect. It's one of our favorite games.

Is $50 a decent enough bounty for this? What is a reasonable time requirement?

I'm only a casual SpeedDemos viewer and don't know about a lot of the technical stuff (although I've read most of this thread).

SocratesJohnson

2013-12-01 05:20:04 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Lot:

I should be trying to put some more style into the run to make it more entertaining.

Alchemist:

I don't think I'll be tackling an expert run of this game, at least not for a while since the routing changes a lot, which would require a lot of time planning and practicing. So, unless someone is already working on an Expert run of this game, I wouldn't think it would be ready by Christmas. Sad

It's definitely something I might consider, however, but not at this moment.

livingalchemist

2013-12-01 05:54:28 pm

Okay, well what can I get? =P

DarkDEVASTAT10N

2013-12-01 11:21:42 pm

So I tied the IL run for Shipping ... and Receiving with a 1:54, in a run; http://www.twitch.tv/darkdevastat10n/c/3329650
I would upload the video to YouTube, but Twitch isn't letting me. The run died on Framed, however.

Also I switched to Wsplit after this video was released

which shows the possible inaccuracies of Llanfair 1.4.2 (the version I use). I have not yet been able to finish a run using Wsplit.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2013-12-02 10:39:14 am

LotBlind: 2013-12-02 10:34:38 am

LotBlind: 2013-12-02 10:34:24 am

2013-12-02 10:33:21 am

living: yeah it's really too short a time almost anyone, maybe next christmas? you could place your bounty in the bounties thread as well though probably most people interested in the game will be frequenting this thread anyway. As for requirements, expert SS is just any% SS on expert. Which means you do whatever you need to do to finish the game without anything extra.

It has to be said that that's going to be much more challenging because you have much less health and there's more guards etc.

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/cash_bounties_for_speedruns361_164.html

Dark: it's Bach right? It has to be. I just missed your stream today. The Shipping run: do you think you'd save half a second if you sent the elevator up at Gilliver's? Would that allow to jump across to the stairs a little faster? Wow, you've reeeally been catching up.

WingedKitsune

Edit history:

WingedKitsune: 2013-12-02 04:43:52 pm

2013-12-02 04:43:30 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

If I start running this game and Dark Project, it'll definitely be SS on expert. It's the main reason I started running AvP on Normal instead of Easy. There's no challenge otherwise.

But, um...I better not get ahead of myself or get anyone's hopes up just yet. I need to play through the games a couple of times first before I make any plans to speedrun them. Smiley

LotBlind

2013-12-03 04:47:17 am

Yeah, that's a good plan Winged. Keep an eye out for those speed potions! Cheesy

SocratesJohnson

2013-12-03 02:33:38 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I hate seeing speed potions on a loot map near an area that I travel, only to find it in a locked chest.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2013-12-04 04:06:20 pm

2013-12-04 08:26:59 am

Have you ever come to a chest that you pass by more than once? Would it save time to pick the lock in more than one go, going there *click*, coming back *clack*? I forgot if you can "save" the process of picking a lock in-between clicks or if you need the click to save it.

Hmm... you did still consider every one of the potions right? Maybe one of them enables a jump otherwise impossible or something like that. I guess just getting the speed burst on flat ground doesn't quite justify picking a complex lock.

EDIT:

Watching the new run tomorrow! It sprang to mind whether you could bind "use"=mwheelup or down? This is inspired by watching you rapidly snag all the loot in the butler's room in Running.

SocratesJohnson

2013-12-05 12:00:30 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

The progress made when picking a lock half-way and coming back to it should stay where it was left. For any%, I can't think of any situations where picking a lock partially and coming back to it later would be helpful, but maybe in 100%? I haven't looked at every loot map, but the one in particular I was referring to was in Kidnap, where there is a speed potion in a chest in the area where Cavador is, well, kidnapped in. I saw that, and thought that if it wasn't too far out of the way, I could grab it for an extra boost while carrying him, but it's in a room off to the side, which is pretty narrow, and in a locked chest. :/ So that one in particular, is not feasible for any%, but MIGHT be for 100% since there is also loot in that area to grab.

Now that I think about it, Kidnap might be a nightmare in 100% ... Tongue

LotBlind

2013-12-05 12:02:24 pm

Comments on your recent run:

1) How does the blackjack block to cause noise at Jenivere's door trick work?

2) You still don't jump to the side of the second ladder in Shipping... You know you can attach to it from the side like Dark does it? But opening the door to the art gallery looks really smart! I'm sure it at least won't lose time like you said.

3) Framed: does the guard actually carry the same key as the one you pick up off the table? Could you just use his key?

Ambush: Sick door climb at the end!!!

Eavesdropping: The bot in the putty room was hilarious.

4) Bank: Never thought there was any more randomness in any of the missions other than Eavesdropping.

Blackmail: "Hands up! Baby hands up!"

5) Did you ever try picking up the rope arrow again and shooting it on the other side of the gate so if the gate is closed you can scale the wall? I realize this is bound to be slower by several seconds though.

Tracing: That body. It phased right through.

Trail: "Come out into the light so that I may SQWOOOOAAMMPPHH!"

6) Cargo: You should try to create a "G" with the flares on the elevator!

7) Kidnap: Do you actually take extra damage if you run against the direction the arrow is flying? (actually I think it's quarrels) Or are you saying it just kills your speed?

8) Why don't you actually knock out at least one of the body guards while you're waiting for Cavador to become frobbable?

Casing: "It wouldst appear that I... aired in judgment."

Sabotage: I'm happy I've now seen first-hand the the bot getting stuck on the ramp in the pillar room. Now I know exactly what you have to go through whenever it's happened.

---

9) Could you maybe have made it past bay D and made a detour round the healing fountain on the first try in Sabotage? How much time does that take?

It's the mark of a well-chosen game to speedrun if there's a few "that's a firsts" in every run. TBH it's to be expected in this game if you keep getting slightly faster, all the patrol positions will change. That would also explain why different guards are attracted to the scene because they're gotten closer to an area you pass by.

Also I came up with this drinking game: Take a shot every time Socrates insults one of the bots. Or half-a-shot. Every other time. You'll still get pissed beyond all reason.

Comments on your recent run:

1) How does the blackjack block to cause noise at Jenivere's door trick work?

2) You still don't jump to the side of the second ladder in Shipping... You know you can attach to it from the side like Dark does it? But opening the door to the art gallery looks really smart! I'm sure it at least won't lose time like you said.

3) Framed: does the guard actually carry the same key as the one you pick up off the table? Could you just use his key?

Ambush: Sick door climb at the end!!!

Eavesdropping: The bot in the putty room was hilarious.

4) Bank: Never thought there was any more randomness in any of the missions other than Eavesdropping.

Blackmail: "Hands up! Baby hands up!"

5) Did you ever try picking up the rope arrow again and shooting it on the other side of the gate so if the gate is closed you can scale the wall? I realize this is bound to be slower by several seconds though.

Tracing: That body. It phased right through.

Trail: "Come out into the light so that I may SQWOOOOAAMMPPHH!"

6) Cargo: You should try to create a "G" with the flares on the elevator!

7) Kidnap: Do you actually take extra damage if you run against the direction the arrow is flying? (actually I think it's quarrels) Or are you saying it just kills your speed?

8) Why don't you actually knock out at least one of the body guards while you're waiting for Cavador to become frobbable?

Casing: "It wouldst appear that I... aired in judgment."

Sabotage: I'm happy I've now seen first-hand the the bot getting stuck on the ramp in the pillar room. Now I know exactly what you have to go through whenever it's happened.

---

9) Could you maybe have made it past bay D and made a detour round the healing fountain on the first try in Sabotage? How much time does that take?

It's the mark of a well-chosen game to speedrun if there's a few "that's a firsts" in every run. TBH it's to be expected in this game if you keep getting slightly faster, all the patrol positions will change. That would also explain why different guards are attracted to the scene because they're gotten closer to an area you pass by.

Also I came up with this drinking game: Take a shot every time Socrates insults one of the bots. Or half-a-shot. Every other time. You'll still get pissed beyond all reason.