Thief 2: The Metal Age

2013-12-06 04:09:59 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

1) No clue, but I find it more consistent to do it that way than to do a full swing. Hell, I have no clue why either methods work!

2) I should try jumping to it, definitely. Opening the door in the art gallery just came to me on day as I ran past and saw the lock, and thought to do it.

3) The key on the guards belt is for the first two doors (the one to the stairs, and to the small room with the vault code), and the one in the office is to the vault itself. I just thought to try going in the other door on that run to see if it makes a difference as I usually run into his back as he passes. I'll stick with the normal way.

Ambush: Thanks! I looked around a lot to see if going out of bounds on Ambush is worthwhile in any way, and have come to the conclusion that it's not. Sad

I did try just going straight to the exit by jumping over the gate, and also bypassing Garrett's stash and going to the gate, but no dice. Sad

Eavesdropping: Yeah, that thing made me mad, obviously, but it was kind enough to back into the room to let me make an impression.

4) There are cameras that randomly spawn in the bank, I guess. I vaguely remember that from years ago, but it's not a bug, I don't think.

Blackmail: That line never works. Tongue

5) I have not. It might be a good idea, however.

Tracing: That was accidental haha, but I try to do it every time now.

Trail: He really wanted it that time. Tongue

6) That's a good idea!

7) Yeah, I've noticed it on that level. I would usually run straight out of the building with the speed potion, and there is usually someone with a crossbow there shooting at me. I was hit with an oncomming bolt while running in it's direction, and I went from full health to about 2. On the other hand, I was hit from behind while running away with a speed potion, and took very little damage.

8) I don't want to accidentally grab the wrong body.

Casing: "Hello Hobart..."

Sabotage: Yeah, that really kills some time, not to mention pisses me off. Tongue

9) There a good chance that I would have been killed in bay D with only 6 health, and I was only a minute into the level at that point, so I thought it best to restart then and there instead of having a bunch of quickloads later from careless damage, or even from elevator damage.

Yeah, patrol timing is definitely something to look for in these levels, and also what I use sometimes to gauge my overall time.

I love it! If I could take my hand off the controls and shoot one too, that would be great! Insulting those robots is so easy.

Glad you took the time to watch!

1) No clue, but I find it more consistent to do it that way than to do a full swing.  Hell, I have no clue why either methods work!

2) I should try jumping to it, definitely.  Opening the door in the art gallery just came to me on day as I ran past and saw the lock, and thought to do it.

3) The key on the guards belt is for the first two doors (the one to the stairs, and to the small room with the vault code), and the one in the office is to the vault itself.  I just thought to try going in the other door on that run to see if it makes a difference as I usually run into his back as he passes.  I'll stick with the normal way.

Ambush: Thanks!  I looked around a lot to see if going out of bounds on Ambush is worthwhile in any way, and have come to the conclusion that it's not. :( I did try just going straight to the exit by jumping over the gate, and also bypassing Garrett's stash and going to the gate, but no dice. :(

Eavesdropping: Yeah, that thing made me mad, obviously, but it was kind enough to back into the room to let me make an impression.

4) There are cameras that randomly spawn in the bank, I guess.  I vaguely remember that from years ago, but it's not a bug, I don't think.

Blackmail:  That line never works. :P

5) I have not.  It might be a good idea, however.

Tracing: That was accidental haha, but I try to do it every time  now.

Trail: He really wanted it that time. :P

6) That's a good idea!

7) Yeah, I've noticed it on that level.  I would usually run straight out of the building with the speed potion, and there is usually someone with a crossbow there shooting at me.  I was hit with an oncomming bolt while running in it's direction, and I went from full health to about 2.  On the other hand, I was hit from behind while running away with a speed potion, and took very little damage.

8) I don't want to accidentally grab the wrong body.

Casing: "Hello Hobart..."

Sabotage:  Yeah, that really kills some time, not to mention pisses me off. :P

9) There a good chance that I would have been killed in bay D with only 6 health, and I was only a minute into the level at that point, so I thought it best to restart then and there instead of having a bunch of quickloads later from careless damage, or even from elevator damage.

Yeah, patrol timing is definitely something to look for in these levels, and also what I use sometimes to gauge my overall time.

I love it!  If I could take my hand off the controls and shoot one too, that would be great!  Insulting those robots is so easy.

Glad you took the time to watch!

LotBlind

2013-12-07 11:28:05 am

Eavesdropping: ...and what an impression your agile movements must have made on him! Pa-da-dum-cheeeh!

7) Wow! Have you noticed a similar effect with cannonball shots? Unexpected realism... Prepare to call outrage though if they aren't programming that into Thief 4, now that we know it was part of the classic series.

9) So doesn't the healing fountain put you to max health then? Or did you mean elevator damage taken prior to getting there?

SocratesJohnson

2013-12-08 11:37:12 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

7) I think it does work with the cannonballs.

9) The fountain only provides 4 health. Sad

SocratesJohnson

2013-12-11 11:45:05 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I'm thinking of refining the missions and submitting ILs for any%. What I think of as any% (discussion commence) is using only the minimal amount of loot gained from the previous mission to purchase items for the next. For instance, it is a requirement on Shipping ...and Receiving to steal at least 500 in loot. That means I would be able to only spend a maximum of 500 on Framed. It pretty much comes down to a segmented run, except in the case of Tracing the Courier/Trail of Blood and Precious Cargo/Kidnap. How I think to handle those specific missions are to have separate times for each mission, but also an overall time for both. For Tracing and Cargo, one could purchase different loot, as the missions before each require a certain amount of loot as an objective (Blackmail/Life of the Party). I guess the point of that stipulation is to differentiate the any% ILs from a money run.

I would love to hear any disagreements, or agreements on this, as this is just my own opinion. Smiley

LotBlind

2013-12-12 08:48:53 am

There's no way to get a "default" equipment set-up for Trail or Kidnap is there? What happens when you restart? It still gives you the equipment you were left with at the end of the previous mission? Hmm... Most games don't have such problems because the levels are not interconnected in this way. I think possibly they have to be timed as one level because of this and not separately at all because it seems meaningless, like timing the best time for the first half of a game and the best time for the latter half.

Yeah and not only is there the shopping you do in-between levels, there's also whatever items you collect in the previous level. So you could technically take your sweet time in Courier and Cargo to get the best starting gear possible. This would be solved by having what you suggested: both separate level times and a collective time for the two pairs of levels. This seems complicated though which is why I'd almost opt just to have the collective times listed because the problem will propagate across all categories: money, 100%, expert... We could just make a post in the SDA discussion forum area about this for more opinions explaining how the game works because I'm sure there's a precedent somewhere.

BTW I happened across this speed run video:

Looks like the guy gets an almost successful no-mantle jump across the gap between the crates in Shipping. His technique seems simple, just run diagonally and jump across perpendicularly. I'll bet that saves two tenths of a second!

BTW was it you who submitted? I guess you'll just replace the video in case you happen to get a better time... In any case doing ILs in-between seems legit because IL -> SS is a solid strategy anyway.

There's no way to get a "default" equipment set-up for Trail or Kidnap is there? What happens when you restart? It still gives you the equipment you were left with at the end of the previous mission? Hmm... Most games don't have such problems because the levels are not interconnected in this way. I think possibly they have to be timed as one level because of this and not separately at all because it seems meaningless, like timing the best time for the first half of a game and the best time for the latter half.

Yeah and not only is there the shopping you do in-between levels, there's also whatever items you collect in the previous level. So you could technically take your sweet time in Courier and Cargo to get the best starting gear possible. This would be solved by having what you suggested: both separate level times and a collective time for the two pairs of levels. This seems complicated though which is why I'd almost opt just to have the collective times listed because the problem will propagate across all categories: money, 100%, expert... We could just make a post in the SDA discussion forum area about this for more opinions explaining how the game works because I'm sure there's a precedent somewhere.

BTW I happened across this speed run video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Z7YpKymxU
Looks like the guy gets an almost successful no-mantle jump across the gap between the crates in Shipping. His technique seems simple, just run diagonally and jump across perpendicularly. I'll bet that saves two tenths of a second!

BTW was it you who submitted? I guess you'll just replace the video in case you happen to get a better time... In any case doing ILs in-between seems legit because IL -> SS is a solid strategy anyway.

SocratesJohnson

2013-12-13 10:41:52 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

Yeah, Trail and Kidnap you just start with whatever you had when you ended Tracing and Cargo. When you restart, you start with the same gear you came in with as well. Yeah, making them "package deals" would probably be the best way to handle it.

There isn't any shopping between the levels, though. Taking your time and getting every item you might want, and even not using some that are purchased in the first mission to carry over to the second could be abused. The only category that it wouldn't matter would be the money runs.

I will have to try jumping to those crates to see how easy it is, and if it can be done consistently without screwing up. Nice find, though!

Yes, that was me who submitted. If I do get a new video, I'll definitely re-submit.

LotBlind

2013-12-14 09:22:29 am

Quote from SocratesJohnson:

There isn't any shopping between the levels, though. Taking your time and getting every item you might want, and even not using some that are purchased in the first mission to carry over to the second could be abused. The only category that it wouldn't matter would be the money runs.

So to be clear you mean you agree that these problems can't be resolved in a way that keeps every level an IL? And even in money runs it does matter because you can still wander around in the first level of the two collecting even more items. Or what do you mean?

Dark, do you agree that we have to clump up these levels? I'm thinking of actually making a post in SDA discussion to poll the community cause I'm interested in hearing whether this is more common than I think and how it's been resolved. Off to do that now.

SocratesJohnson

2013-12-14 12:27:51 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

By Money Run, I mean getting all the loot on the previous mission to use for items in the next. This also includes not using items on Tracing and Cargo so that you'll have them for the following. Essentially, money runs should be the fastest time possible ever. For Tracing/Blood and Cargo/Kidnap, I think they'll have to be kept together as one segment, two missions for other categories.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2013-12-15 10:30:01 am

2013-12-15 10:28:35 am

Ah, I see now what you mean. I was thinking about what "money run" meant when Rogston and SaunaChum were submitting their T1 runs, but I see now that it's slightly different with T2 because of the item carry-over parts. And yes it would make sense that with those two levels you're allowed to do whatever you like in the previous level, which is essentially the same as in 1.

Hmm... we're kinda having this discussion in two places right now so let's wait until the other thread no longer gets replies and then make an overview and summary here. We might also try and list all the possible categories that we've been envisioning and planning and running to see that there's no confusion or lots of overlap or too many categories or anything.

SocratesJohnson

2013-12-16 11:38:28 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

Perhaps just money runs for ILs?

LotBlind

2013-12-17 07:02:46 am

So we'd have the following then:

- SS any% normal
- SS any% expert
- SS 100% (implying expert difficulty?)
- Segmented any%
- Segmented 100%
- ILs any% normal
- ILs any% expert
- ILs 100% (implying expert?)

And if ILs are always money runs this removes a few other categories, which is good.

Segmented 100% is very similar to money ILs except all items is not required for 100% meaning trade-offs would have to be considered in the levels where the items carry over to the next level whereas for money ILs it's not a trade-off since it's assumed everything useful gets collected in the previous level.

Come to think of it, if a game has ILs can it also have a segmented run? I'm thinking we don't really need that because it's not so different from either ILs or SS. The riskier strategies get used in the ILs. Otherwise the segmented should be pretty much like the SS except a bit more optimized. If we removed the segmented categories, we'd be left with six categories out of which probably no-one is going to do the SS 100% expert very soon. I think all these categories are sufficiently far apart from each other.

So we'd have the following then:

- SS any% normal
- SS any% expert
- SS 100% (implying expert difficulty?)
- Segmented any%
- Segmented 100%
- ILs any% normal
- ILs any% expert
- ILs 100% (implying expert?)

And if ILs are always money runs this removes a few other categories, which is good.

Segmented 100% is very similar to money ILs except all items is not required for 100% meaning trade-offs would have to be considered in the levels where the items carry over to the next level whereas for money ILs it's not a trade-off since it's assumed everything useful gets collected in the previous level.

Come to think of it, if a game has ILs can it also have a segmented run? I'm thinking we don't really need that because it's not so different from either ILs or SS. The riskier strategies get used in the ILs. Otherwise the segmented should be pretty much like the SS except a bit more optimized. If we removed the segmented categories, we'd be left with six categories out of which probably no-one is going to do the SS 100% expert very soon. I think all these categories are sufficiently far apart from each other.

SocratesJohnson

2013-12-17 09:18:46 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

Looks good to me. Smiley

The only problem with the ILs as a segmented run, as far as I can see, is the aforementioned issue with Tracing/Blood and Cargo/Kidnap.

SocratesJohnson

Edit history:

SocratesJohnson: 2013-12-18 10:27:35 pm

2013-12-18 10:24:58 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Levels that doing a money run will be faster:

Blackmail: Purchasing the two fire arrows to gain access to the second floor faster.
Tracing the Courier: Purchasing the two speed potions and invisibility potion and using them all in that mission.
Trail of Blood: Not using the speed potions in Tracing, and using them in this mission.
Life of the Party: Purchasing a fire arrow to save some time from using the telescope in the space traveler's home to get the fire arrow to destroy the planks.
Precious Cargo: Purchasing the speed potion, fire arrows, and perhaps some frogbeast eggs. (I'm thinking 2 or 3 frogbeast eggs and a fire arrow would open the door to cold storage - have not tested)
Kidnap: The fire arrows and mines gained from Cargo, and the speed potions (2).
Casing the Joint: Buying the speed potions, and perhaps the invisibility potion.
Masks: Buying mines and fire arrows are much more consistent than using frogbeasts and broadheads.
Sabotage at Soulforge: Buying the fire arrows, speed potions, slowfall potions (4), an invisibility potion, and a frogbeast egg will definitely make this mission so much easier and faster.

I have the day off on Friday, so hopefully I can take the time and try out and record some money runs. I haven't played in a while, and I sorely miss it!

Levels that doing a money run will be faster:

Blackmail: Purchasing the two fire arrows to gain access to the second floor faster.
Tracing the Courier: Purchasing the two speed potions and invisibility potion and using them all in that mission.
Trail of Blood: Not using the speed potions in Tracing, and using them in this mission.
Life of the Party: Purchasing a fire arrow to save some time from using the telescope in the space traveler's home to get the fire arrow to destroy the planks.
Precious Cargo: Purchasing the speed potion, fire arrows, and perhaps some frogbeast eggs.  (I'm thinking 2 or 3 frogbeast eggs and a fire arrow would open the door to cold storage - have not tested)
Kidnap: The fire arrows and mines gained from Cargo, and the speed potions (2).
Casing the Joint: Buying the speed potions, and perhaps the invisibility potion.
Masks: Buying mines and fire arrows are much more consistent than using frogbeasts and broadheads.
Sabotage at Soulforge: Buying the fire arrows, speed potions, slowfall potions (4), an invisibility potion, and a frogbeast egg will definitely make this mission so much easier and faster.

I have the day off on Friday, so hopefully I can take the time and try out and record some money runs.  I haven't played in a while, and I sorely miss it!

LotBlind

2013-12-19 10:14:02 am

Are there any levels where you won't have enough money to buy all you'd like to?

Level one is going to be the same in ILs as it was in the SS except it has to be FRIGGIN AMAZING! Aim for a 1:05.

SocratesJohnson

2013-12-19 11:10:26 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

I missed Eavesdropping, where there are 3 speed potions for sale.

I'll have to check to see what can and cannot be all bought. The tallest order would be on Sabotage, but if not buying an extra slowfall potion makes up for it, one can be obtained later in the mission very easily without time loss.

Interference at 1:05? Gotta be really lucky for that! Tongue

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2014-02-02 12:31:19 pm

2014-01-19 12:54:03 pm

Making a few notes here while (re-)watching the submitted SS run.

Shipping...:
1) Which of you has the better loot strat? Isn't there another small statue (15g)? That + small statue in the crate near starting point = enough to skip getting Gilver crate loot (which is worth 50 I think)?
2) Could you get both of those and not get the first goblet style loot that you normally get to save some time there?
3) Secondly, could you fall down on the wall that separates the keypad room from the rest of the office area that you first enter, get the loot from the small box, hop diagonally across to cut the corner, only then dropping down on the floor?

Framed:
4) could you alert the guys in the security room that you exit the level through by jumping before opening the door or doing something else while passing through the first time? Is this even desirable?
5) When you first jump across using the slowfall potion, would it bring any benefits to run further along the roof before taking the potion and hopping off there?
6) Should you always bj the corridor guard to prevent him from triggering the alarm in some scenarios, causing the exit way to be blocked?
7) Can one scrounge even nearly a speed potion's worth of loot without compromising a lot of time in here?

Eavesdropping:
8) Seeing as the Child can, with tough luck, cause trouble in the staircase, should you actually practise taking him out with the water arrow while lingering at the door?

First City:
9) You have an extra fire arrow: could you use that and the mines in conjunction to eliminate the bot you're trying to take out using just the mines?

Blackmailing:
10) In any and all ILs one should look for a way to get the gear even faster... flash bomb?

Tracing:
11) Is there any such thing as "firing a noisemaker somewhere ahead of Mosely causing her to run to investigate the area but lose interest sufficiently quickly to cause her to reach the drop-off point faster than otherwise none of this plain out causing a mission fail"?

Trail:
12) Just out of principle, the speed potion on the window sill in the first part of the mission should be grabbed only after mantling and preparing to jump down? That way it kind of passes your field of vision. Saves 0.04 seconds. I guess it's not quite as safe if you're not sure you've grabbed it successfully as you're jumping.
13) I just started listening to the apebeasts. That son-of-a-b**** not sharing his plumsies! Could you please create a route (I'll defend it in the verification!) that at least knocks him out OR WORSE?
14) Is there really no better spot for using the second speed potion? You're not getting any slope boosts or anything out of it looks like. How about the very start? You'd get a better guard pattern too and you could jump the river maybe? Or is there another patrol thing going on that you can't see in the run?
15) Have you tested whether speed potions do anything for your weapon skills? Do you get faster sword swings or anything?

Party:
16) You sure you can't get frogbeast boosts consistently if you don't aim exactly downwards but rather a tiny bit up? Otherwise is it possible to fall off in a way that doesn't send you to the opposite end of the elevator shaft?
17) You must have tried reading the scriptures through the wall?
18) I just noticed Garrett misses his cue for the line about the location of the tower he's raiding by about 7 or 8 minutes. I think it's simply an oversight by the team, the two triggers are too close to each other so the other one doesn't trigger. I think this might be one of the lines that were added with the patch in case you didn't realize that.

Cargo:
19) The drop-down into the water - could you get a bit more horizontal momentum if you chose your angle carefully? Even using the speed potion there to skip a bunch of swimming?

Sabotage:
20) Again, the frogbeasts... Here I'm thinking if you aimed very carefully, not facing the wall directly, then if you get the boost it'll be more in the direction of the opening (talking about the first time you do it). Another one of those "out of principle" things.
21) If you ride the conveyor belt again, should you jump off it for keeping the momentum for the flight?

I rejected the run of course for missing the elevator shot...

Making a few notes here while (re-)watching the submitted SS run.

Shipping...:
1) Which of you has the better loot strat? Isn't there another small statue (15g)? That + small statue in the crate near starting point = enough to skip getting Gilver crate loot (which is worth 50 I think)?
2) Could you get both of those and not get the first goblet style loot that you normally get to save some time there?
3) Secondly, could you fall down on the wall that separates the keypad room from the rest of the office area that you first enter, get the loot from the small box, hop diagonally across to cut the corner, only then dropping down on the floor?

Framed:
4) could you alert the guys in the security room that you exit the level through by jumping before opening the door or doing something else while passing through the first time? Is this even desirable?
5) When you first jump across using the slowfall potion, would it bring any benefits to run further along the roof before taking the potion and hopping off there?
6) Should you always bj the corridor guard to prevent him from triggering the alarm in some scenarios, causing the exit way to be blocked?
7) Can one scrounge even nearly a speed potion's worth of loot without compromising a lot of time in here?

Eavesdropping:
8) Seeing as the Child can, with tough luck, cause trouble in the staircase, should you actually practise taking him out with the water arrow while lingering at the door?

First City:
9) You have an extra fire arrow: could you use that and the mines in conjunction to eliminate the bot you're trying to take out using just the mines?

Blackmailing:
10) In any and all ILs one should look for a way to get the gear even faster... flash bomb?

Tracing:
11) Is there any such thing as "firing a noisemaker somewhere ahead of Mosely causing her to run to investigate the area but lose interest sufficiently quickly to cause her to reach the drop-off point faster than otherwise none of this plain out causing a mission fail"?

Trail:
12) Just out of principle, the speed potion on the window sill in the first part of the mission should be grabbed only after mantling and preparing to jump down? That way it kind of passes your field of vision. Saves 0.04 seconds. I guess it's not quite as safe if you're not sure you've grabbed it successfully as you're jumping.
13) I just started listening to the apebeasts. That son-of-a-b**** not sharing his plumsies! Could you please create a route (I'll defend it in the verification!) that at least knocks him out OR WORSE?
14) Is there really no better spot for using the second speed potion? You're not getting any slope boosts or anything out of it looks like. How about the very start? You'd get a better guard pattern too and you could jump the river maybe? Or is there another patrol thing going on that you can't see in the run?
15) Have you tested whether speed potions do anything for your weapon skills? Do you get faster sword swings or anything?

Party:
16) You sure you can't get frogbeast boosts consistently if you don't aim exactly downwards but rather a tiny bit up? Otherwise is it possible to fall off in a way that doesn't send you to the opposite end of the elevator shaft?
17) You must have tried reading the scriptures through the wall?
18) I just noticed Garrett misses his cue for the line about the location of the tower he's raiding by about 7 or 8 minutes. I think it's simply an oversight by the team, the two triggers are too close to each other so the other one doesn't trigger. I think this might be one of the lines that were added with the patch in case you didn't realize that.

Cargo:
19) The drop-down into the water - could you get a bit more horizontal momentum if you chose your angle carefully? Even using the speed potion there to skip a bunch of swimming?

Sabotage:
20) Again, the frogbeasts... Here I'm thinking if you aimed very carefully, not facing the wall directly, then if you get the boost it'll be more in the direction of the opening (talking about the first time you do it). Another one of those "out of principle" things.
21) If you ride the conveyor belt again, should you jump off it for keeping the momentum for the flight?

I rejected the run of course for missing the elevator shot...

LotBlind

2014-02-02 12:33:45 pm

Just to confirm with you runners: you did read all the stuff at the beginning of this thread? I never noticed this is the same old Poesta thread. He listed all sorts of tricks in the first post, some of which are probably version-dependent.

Also, Dark: did you notice now is the time to make your game suggestions for ESA. This thread: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/european_speedster_assembly_2014__game_suggestions_174.html
Are you still thinking of coming over?

LotBlind

2014-02-08 03:17:10 pm

Socrates, a few things to your new PB run:

Blackmail gate thing: why don't you just play the mission up till when you're up on the top of the gates, open them and just wait and watch the guards. See if the gates ever close in that situation. Could it be one of them's walking up to the lever and pulling it to close the gates? Try setting the alarm off repeatedly.

Did anyone experiment with combining drugs elsewhere than just Trail? I mean speed. And slowfall. Potions. To get high? High speeds? Like you're flying? If nothing else I want to see a compilation of hilarious tricks that it enables.

SocratesJohnson

2014-02-09 08:18:20 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

It's not that I've been avoiding the thread, just that it got lost in the back pages of the PC section and whenever I'd randomly check here, there hasn't been an update. You'll probably still accuse me of whining, though. Tongue

It's pretty late, and my run earlier was complete garbage, as you saw, so I'll get back at you with your points tomorrow.

SocratesJohnson

2014-02-10 11:17:03 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

1) I still haven't tried grabbing the statue from the crate vs the chest in Gilver's. I really should do that this week.
2) I think the goblet is only worth 15, like the statue; I end up with exactly 500 loot at the end. So this ties in with 1.
3) Worth a shot. Smiley

4) If I could throw something, maybe, but I also don't want to alert the guy upstairs I take the key from. I think stopping to shoot an arrow would take more time than it's worth.
5) It might be a bit tricky to get to the left side of the smoke stacks, but seems like it could be done.
6) I think that would be like the camera near the vault if it sees me while I'm leaving. The alarm can be good or bad, depending on where the actual guard is as I exit. When it comes to more black jacks, I say yes!
7) Unfortunately, you can't buy items for Ambush. Sad

8) Worth a shot.

9) I don't think the slowdown of drawing the bow would make up any time. I just drop the mines there in hopes that I don't have to deal with that thing on the way back. I usually don't if it doesn't blow up anyways.

10) I don't start with a flashbomb here, and the only one there is to pick up in the mission is in the attic. It costs 200 to buy a flashbomb, and I only come across 25 without deviating in the bank.

11) I wish there were. I haven't tried it though, but I bet she would take two steps, stop and look around, wander slowly towards the noise arrow, stop, look around ...

12) I usually try to grab it as I'm mantling up to the ledge after jumping off the stairs. I grab it as I'm rising.
13) I'll try to shoot a broadhead at the guy as I pass. Wink

14) I've tried it in the first part, before jumping the waterfall, and after. It doesn't make that much difference. I tried a few other places, but not a difference that I could see.
15) The swings don't change with a speed potion, unfortunately. I wish I had a fire arrow or 2 for those icicles that need to be cut down.

16) That's one thing I've been thinking about, since I like getting boosted backwards into the room.
17) I have, and so far, I haven't been able to make it work. :/
18) Yeah, I love how he says he can get to Angelwatch via this road when he's already done all that.

19) I do try to jump out of that window at an angle to try and get more to the right. Let me try the speed potion there. I'm thinking that I'd still have to wait for that blue mech to pass before continuing, or it would be in the way. Then again, I don't know what starts the patrols in the lower levels.

20) I'll need to practice with the frogbeast eggs more to see what works the best.
21) Found a new, fast, and safe strategy for that room altogether. Wink

I've been meaning to find out why the gate closes sometimes on Blackmail, but never got around to it. I should do that this week.

I've combined the run with booze, and it doesn't work all that well. Tongue

I just can't think of any other places they could be combined at. :/

The thing I'm doing now on Sabotage, I just realized I can do. There's a window in that factory room with the crusher and the conveyor belt and what have you. This window, I didn't think I could get through, because I tried, and I failed (like the key through the wall in Shipping). I was just screwing around yesterday and managed to get through it easily. The problem was that I was trying to do what Poesta and Xmodule999 do lean through the hole, which they jump through or something. I would get stuck and have to back out. I tried mantling into it, but I would get stuck again (I was mantling on a speed-strafe angle). I tried jumping into the window, but would get stuck.

So I mantled it from the front, moving forward, and it pulled me through the hole. :/ So yeah, I was missing that the whole time and worrying about that dangerous room. I guess being at an angle will screw you up, but straight ahead and you'll pull yourself through. That should easily take my time down on that level.

1) I still haven't tried grabbing the statue from the crate vs the chest in Gilver's.  I really should do that this week.
2) I think the goblet is only worth 15, like the statue; I end up with exactly 500 loot at the end.  So this ties in with 1.
3) Worth a shot. :)

4) If I could throw something, maybe, but I also don't want to alert the guy upstairs I take the key from.  I think stopping to shoot an arrow would take more time than it's worth.
5) It might be a bit tricky to get to the left side of the smoke stacks, but seems like it could be done.
6) I think that would be like the camera near the vault if it sees me while I'm leaving.  The alarm can be good or bad, depending on where the actual guard is as I exit.  When it comes to more black jacks, I say yes!
7) Unfortunately, you can't buy items for Ambush. :(

8) Worth a shot.

9) I don't think the slowdown of drawing the bow would make up any time.  I just drop the mines there in hopes that I don't have to deal with that thing on the way back.  I usually don't if it doesn't blow up anyways.

10) I don't start with a flashbomb here, and the only one there is to pick up in the mission is in the attic.  It costs 200 to buy a flashbomb, and I only come across 25 without deviating in the bank.

11) I wish there were.  I haven't tried it though, but I bet she would take two steps, stop and look around, wander slowly towards the noise arrow, stop, look around ...

12) I usually try to grab it as I'm mantling up to the ledge after jumping off the stairs.  I grab it as I'm rising.
13) I'll try to shoot a broadhead at the guy as I pass. ;)
14) I've tried it in the first part, before jumping the waterfall, and after.  It doesn't make that much difference.  I tried a few other places, but not a difference that I could see.
15) The swings don't change with a speed potion, unfortunately.  I wish I had a fire arrow or 2 for those icicles that need to be cut down.

16) That's one thing I've been thinking about, since I like getting boosted backwards into the room.
17) I have, and so far, I haven't been able to make it work. :/
18) Yeah, I love how he says he can get to Angelwatch via this road when he's already done all that.

19) I do try to jump out of that window at an angle to try and get more to the right.  Let me try the speed potion there.  I'm thinking that I'd still have to wait for that blue mech to pass before continuing, or it would be in the way.  Then again, I don't know what starts the patrols in the lower levels.

20) I'll need to practice with the frogbeast eggs more to see what works the best.
21) Found a new, fast, and safe strategy for that room altogether. ;)

I've been meaning to find out why the gate closes sometimes on Blackmail, but never got around to it.  I should do that this week.

I've combined the run with booze, and it doesn't work all that well. :P I just can't think of any other places they could be combined at. :/

The thing I'm doing now on Sabotage, I just realized I can do.  There's a window in that factory room with the crusher and the conveyor belt and what have you.  This window, I didn't think I could get through, because I tried, and I failed (like the key through the wall in Shipping).  I was just screwing around yesterday and managed to get through it easily.  The problem was that I was trying to do what Poesta and Xmodule999 do lean through the hole, which they jump through or something.  I would get stuck and have to back out.  I tried mantling into it, but I would get stuck again (I was mantling on a speed-strafe angle).  I tried jumping into the window, but would get stuck.

So I mantled it from the front, moving forward, and it pulled me through the hole. :/ So yeah, I was missing that the whole time and worrying about that dangerous room.  I guess being at an angle will screw you up, but straight ahead and you'll pull yourself through.  That should easily take my time down on that level.

LotBlind

2014-02-10 12:35:21 pm

Yay for new skips!

SocratesJohnson

2014-02-17 07:17:55 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I came up with another new strat for Sabotage that I've been practicing. There's a frogbeast egg that can be grabbed on some scaffolding to the left of where you begin that I grab so I have an extra frogbeast attempt. The problem is that if I miss grabbing it, I'll need to continue with the mission since it will screw up the timing of the mech in the storage area, as well as the one in the hall on the way to bay D. Otherwise, the fastest way I can grab it is if I jump onto the ladder underneath the egg, and then jump off the ladder towards the egg and try to grab it in mid-air.

This way, I can use the frogbeast after the first beacon instead of climbing down the ladder and saving it for later. Using quicksaves, I managed an 11:24 with this method, as well as the other new one.

NO, LOT, I DID NOT PRACTICE ANYTHING NEW ON SHIPPING YET! Tongue

Will soon.

LotBlind

2014-02-18 10:37:59 am

YOU'RE KILLING ME! Cry

I admit I've reinstalled it... Maybe I'll find something cool.

SocratesJohnson

2014-02-18 11:55:22 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

Sweet! Good luck, dude!

LotBlind

2014-02-23 03:20:07 pm

I noticed the Jenivere door trick works with other doors as well, at least the one leading out into the courtyard in the same mission. This allows you to skip getting that key although it's hard to miss getting one. Could you work this in somewhere to skip another key?

1.07 has a ton of glitches but that's the only one I've found potentially speedrun-worthy so far. Not so much in this mission, although for the 100%..?

Otherwise I stumbled on Lytha's age-old Thief pages and found them quite thoughtfully written. For instance he/she gives us the insight that broadheads can be used as trackers if you want to confirm a particularly difficult shot is correctly aimed. Could be useful if you have a shortage of rope/vine arrows in one of the categories? There's more things like I didn't know a broadhead could deal more damage if your target is below you, presumably it gains more velocity? Anyway here's the link to the weps page if someone didn't look at this stuff yet: http://www.lytha.com/thief2/equip/weapons.phtml

I'll take a look at Shipping... next.

I noticed the Jenivere door trick works with other doors as well, at least the one leading out into the courtyard in the same mission. This allows you to skip getting that key although it's hard to miss getting one. Could you work this in somewhere to skip another key?

1.07 has a ton of glitches but that's the only one I've found potentially speedrun-worthy so far. Not so much in this mission, although for the 100%..?

Otherwise I stumbled on Lytha's age-old Thief pages and found them quite thoughtfully written. For instance he/she gives us the insight that broadheads can be used as trackers if you want to confirm a particularly difficult shot is correctly aimed. Could be useful if you have a shortage of rope/vine arrows in one of the categories? There's more things like I didn't know a broadhead could deal more damage if your target is below you, presumably it gains more velocity? Anyway here's the link to the weps page if someone didn't look at this stuff yet: http://www.lytha.com/thief2/equip/weapons.phtml

I'll take a look at Shipping... next.