The future of European Speedster Assembly [locked]

Edit history:

Kirua: 2014-12-03 07:43:52 pm

2014-12-03 07:42:49 pm

At this point, I'm having a hard time understanding why Svenne/Ludendi are not giving their side of the story, which is what I was waiting for since the initial post. The only "sensible" reason I could imagine for remaining silent is if he was advised to do so because they are taking actual legal measures.

The thing is, we can see in some of the various documents that both sides are acting (or at least say they are) in the community's best interest. If that's the case, then both sides would want to share with the community the informations about what's going on. And so far, only Edenal & co have done so. So as much as I agree that discrediting Svenne/Ludendi or condemning him should not be done before we hear what he has to say, the other side of it is that we'll have to draw conclusions based on his silence if he doesn't speak up. So please, Svenne, if you read, say what you have to say.

If Edenal & co have truly done something reprehensible, we need to have some actual facts, amounts etc.

So far what we have is a legal bluff by presjpolk, who's used to these sort of things. He loves trying to scare off children by threatening to sue them, so it's pretty difficult to take him seriously at this point.
And the only other thing we have is a vague statement by MrLonghair mentioning embezzlement & possible jailtime, which is at this point an even worse bluff unless backed up by some strong facts (jailtime for possibly mismanaging some small amounts of money for a small event, yeah sure).

Act like the adults you are. Stop being vague and tell us clearly what Edenal & co did wrong/tried to steal.

At this point, I'm having a hard time understanding why Svenne/Ludendi are not giving their side of the story, which is what I was waiting for since the initial post. The only "sensible" reason I could imagine for remaining silent is if he was advised to do so because they are taking actual legal measures.

The thing is, we can see in some of the various documents that both sides are acting (or at least say they are) in the community's best interest. If that's the case, then both sides would want to share with the community the informations about what's going on. And so far, only Edenal & co have done so. So as much as I agree that discrediting Svenne/Ludendi or condemning him should not be done before we hear what he has to say, the other side of it is that we'll have to draw conclusions based on his silence if he doesn't speak up. So please, Svenne, if you read, say what you have to say.

If Edenal & co have truly done something reprehensible, we need to have some actual facts, amounts etc.

So far what we have is a legal bluff by presjpolk, who's used to these sort of things. He loves trying to scare off children by threatening to sue them, so it's pretty difficult to take him seriously at this point.
And the only other thing we have is a vague statement by MrLonghair mentioning embezzlement & possible jailtime, which is at this point an even worse bluff unless backed up by some strong facts (jailtime for possibly mismanaging some small amounts of money for a small event, yeah sure).

Act like the adults you are. Stop being vague and tell us clearly what Edenal & co did wrong/tried to steal.

Joka

2014-12-03 11:43:03 pm

Personal text

Quote from Kirua:

Act like the adults you are. Stop being vague and tell us clearly what Edenal & co did wrong/tried to steal.

Efreeti

Edit history:

Efreeti: 2014-12-04 01:54:23 am

2014-12-04 01:52:58 am

Clear as a crisp spring morning!

Quote from Kirua:

At this point, I'm having a hard time understanding why Svenne/Ludendi are not giving their side of the story, which is what I was waiting for since the initial post. The only "sensible" reason I could imagine for remaining silent is if he was advised to do so because they are taking actual legal measures.

That is a sensible assumption

I also think ESA 2014 was, from the perspective of a viewer, a very successful marathon, so props to all the organizers. I would probably favour that team for organizing ESA 2015.

Regarding my personal opinion of Svenne, it was slightly lessened at the event due to quite noticably being the least helpful person to man the official twitch channels' accounts in the chat, in regards to forwarding questions and requests for help from the viewers, and at least at one time saying things in the chat that made moderating it a lot more difficult.

Steijner

2014-12-04 02:29:28 am

Quote from Efreeti:

Regarding my personal opinion of Svenne, it was slightly lessened at the event due to quite noticably being the least helpful person to man the official twitch channels' accounts in the chat, in regards to forwarding questions and requests for help from the viewers, and at least at one time saying things in the chat that made moderating it a lot more difficult.

Well actually your opinion does not really surprise me since almost everyone knows that he is the master bullshitter himself. He is always saying a lot but doing less (see Best of NES marathon). He keeps saying how much he has done for past events when in real others have done the real work. And that's the reason why I am hoping for Edenal and Co to host/plan the upcoming ESA event because then we can be assured that we will get a well organized event.

badbrakes

2014-12-04 08:55:46 am

never stop

"He is always saying a lot but doing less (see Best of NES marathon)"
i´d like u to explain what u mean there steijner.

Svenne

2014-12-04 02:53:42 pm

Smörgåsbord

The following statement does not reflect Ludendi views in any way. This is my personal feelings about it all so it should only reflect on me and not Ludendi. Please respect that fact.

Background “Lawsuit”: In mid-late September, over a month after ESA, Frezy_man went through the Ludendi economy and posted me a summery. ESA was supposed to cost about 8000 Euros but Ludendi had only received about 3000 Euros so I told Frezy_man this and he asked Edenal about where the money had gone. We got an email with a spreadsheet with some numbers. Still not satisfied with the answer he got, Frezy_man continued asking Edenal to get more details. It then came apparent that Edenal had kept over SEK 10000 in a private account without letting us know about it. This was the reason why I got angry and wanted to consider a lawsuit against him. I was not the only Ludendi members who felt that way.

Edenal later called his private account The ESA Account during the round-table but just because you stamp the ESA name on a private account does not make it more right or legal. You cannot decide on your own on what to do with money that is not yours without letting the economic responsible party / owners know about it. That is embezzlement.

I showed this email conversation to Mr. Longhair because he was the head audio-guy for ESA 2014 until he got too sick to come and he is not in the ESA clique. He was the guy Niss3 called when setting up the audio for ESA. Mr. Longhair was also in the Ludendi meeting I will talk about later. He came to the same conclusion I did that we need to fix this fast because what Edenal had done was illegal.

Full out/in payment register from the Ludendi account September 20th 2014:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oLePjaZse253fgdvwt2KfdQAt1kej0BFRCcLKQyllYw

(I removed the bank-account numbers because that is private information)

A small thing that could be added to this is that in the payment thread it said the money that he received from ESA attendees would be sent to the Ludendi account once a week but that did not happen once. So over SEK 40000 stayed with Edenal from the money sent from ESA attendees.

ESA 2014 payment thread

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/european_speedster_assembly_2014__payment_thread.html

Edenal said the reason he did not send any money to the Ludendi account was because he did not have access to it and it would be a bother getting them from it. On January 22nd he received SEK 11500 from it to buy the ESA computer and during ESA on the 27th of July he received SEK 20000 from it. I agree that it seems really dumb to just send back money you are still gonna receive later.

When I asked for the bank-records from the personal ESA account and his Paypal from the day you could pay for ESA he said no. This was one day before the ESA round-table. This was also about the time the Ludendi meeting was announced on FaceBook.

Ludendi Meeting October 11th: https://www.facebook.com/events/1568545303368708/

Edenal had a responsibility to tell Ludendi about how the money was being managed because ESA economy falls under Ludendi. So announcing a meeting felt like the best idea to talk about the money and the roundtable where the ESA planning group had decided to own ESA without giving us any prior warning or time to talk about it.

No-one beside me and Frezy_man got to know anything about these ESA plans and we got to know them just like a day before the announcement during the roundtable. That was when we announce the Ludendi meeting would take place at the following weekend. So the roundtable was on 5th, the meeting on the 11th. For some reason Edenal forbid us to even speak about ESA’s future during this meeting. Closer to the meeting Edenal changed his mind about it and also removed a FaceBook post he had posted in it.

Present onsite during this meeting was: Frezy_man, Charlie, Magnus, Oskar, Pro_JN, Kottpower, Druvan7, LyftarN, Crippe and me.

On Skype was: Mr. Longhair, Dxtr, InfestedRiche, BadBrakes, SethCharleon, Curseddolls & Edenal.

Because Ludendi is a Swedish community we were all under the impression that the meeting would be in Swedish. Flicky wanted to join the call but I thought this was really serious and that we could probably only express ourselfs in Swedish without having it watered down. Everyone else was Swedish and we manage to get someone on Skype to translate the meeting.

The meeting started off really awkwardly because no-one in the room or on Skype knew how to start and we had a lot of questions that needed to be answered as you might imagine. I tried starting the conversation by asking Edenal a question about how the money had been handled but he interrupted me and asked if it was an inquiry. So after like 20 seconds it became apparent I suck at starting a conversation so Frezy_man decided to more or less take control of the conversation. In the most neutral way possible that he could do. So the discussion started and everything seemed to go well. Everyone got to talk about their feelings about ESA.

Curseddolls talked about the nasty garbage-area next to the kitchen and the t-shirts. Infested wanted to know if it was possible to join the planning group. Oskar wanted to know if the money in the old ESA account would be transferred to the new one now. Pro_JN got to know his cow picture was in storage and not a single prize had been sent out so far. Not a single winner had been decided from ESA 2014. A lot of people asked a lot of questions but you get the picture. It was not only me there.

I wanted to get more insight in how the money had been used and find a way so it could be tracked because over SEK 40000 never made it to the Ludendi account. As I wrote earlier we had not received any recites or bank-statements at all from ESA 2014. This is still the case. All we have is that spreadsheet from the round-table. I tried looking for it on SDA while writing this but I could not find it and I looked through all ESA threads on SDA. Hopefully I just missed it or else it was not posted on here at all contrary to what Edenal said.

We discussed a new official Ludendi account just for ESA should be made and that a “ESA Financial Supervisor” position had to be determined. Dxtr volunteered for the position. This would give everyone involved in ESA the insight needed so we could avoid future economic problems. You cannot run an event with no auditing and no oversight. We were planning on opening the new ESA account as we speak. We were just waiting for Edenal to respond so we could let Dxtr open it for us.

Frezy_man thought that some kind of contract would be good to ensure that everyone got what they wanted so constructing the contract took most of the time during the meeting. Ludendi would continue to stand as owner because that would mean no legal hazzle for ESA when it comes to tax-issues because Ludendi is a non-profit organization and does not have to tax for money received through entry-fees from cultural events. Being a local non-profit organization would also give ESA a much lower rent on the proposed ESA 2015 venue. We tried to write it so that the ESA Main Organizer will have the freedom to make ESA into what he/she wants but should strive to include as much people as possible while making it. And if the community lost faith in him/her there should be a way to get a new ESA Organizer in place so it does not become a Dictatorship. I now think that part of the contract could have been written a bit better. We could atleast changed it to Team Ludendi because a majority of the ESA attendees from 2012 to 2014 are a part of it.

Edenal agreed that all equipment bought from funds from ESA is Ludendi’s. Ludendi would allow other communites to use the equipment and old tech could be lent to other communites or auctioned off on Ebay so it would not be an inside affair which I was afraid of after listening to the ESA round-table. The money in the private ESA account would be moved to the new ESA account.

You can see the contract in the OP. To me the contract looks OK and the only reason you would not want to sign it would be you are not comfortable of actually have any responsibilities towards Ludendi. I mean, Ludendi provide the equipment, the cheap venues and economic security for ESA. But the contract was still a work in progress but those were the things we discussed during the meeting.

I will include a link from the venue stating that Ludendi was defacto the host of ESA in 2014. This is the only reason why we could borrow it for free for the past two years. It is pretty easy making a marathon go with profit when you don’t have to pay any rent. As per usual they never give any credit to Ludendi for providing free rent, tax-free money and more.

Official information from the venue: http://nyeport.se/european-speedster-assembly-2014/

We were still in discussions when the ESA planning group decided to post this on SDA. It makes me wonder something about the people in charge over ESA. It feels like the same dirty trick as they pulled during the round-table. About owning ESA without speaking to anyone about it. This is the second time they have done that towards Ludendi now. Well, this one seems to be all about me and they are trying to use me to split ESA from Ludendi when they have no claim for it at all.

To me it feels like Edenal does not want any responsibilities at all when it comes to running ESA and when Ludendi just wanted to get some kind of grasp of the situation he thought we (according to him me) were after his “job”. I don’t want his job. Ludendi wanted him to continue. According to me Ludendi was just asking for what was rightfully theirs and promised to give ESA the freedom to become what the community wants it to be.

After Ludendi started asking for information about the money we suddenly got a round-table which was good except the splitting ESA with Ludendi part that felt forced and shoehorned in my opinion because there is nothing about it at all in the feed-back thread and seriously no-one I talk with on Team Ludendi knew about it and I know most of them. As soon as Ludendi answered the questions that the ESA group had on the purposed contract we had worked together during the Ludendi meeting where 17 people were present we got an official statement saying Edenal was leaving and keeping ESA. He also decided to attack me personally in the process in an attempt to discredit Ludendi to make his move more acceptable but that does not make up for the wrongs he has committed against Ludendi and ESA. So I am writing this to remind him of what he has done. I am no longer gonna pretend it did not happen. I really want him to host ESA but I personally after all of this I would not let him or anyone in the planning group near the finances of ESA ever again.

Owning and doing planning+tech for a marathon is not the same thing. I still want them to host ESA but as suggested in the proposed contract ESA needs a Financial Supervisor from now on in my opinion and I put my trust in Ludendi because we have only trying to do what is right. We get to know nothing the ESA group does in advance so it would be futile to believe I have been stalling when trying to answer the SDA thread. Because most of it was directed towards me I feel like I have the right to give you all answers.

The answers Ludendi received from the ESA planning group:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eLy9RT6kom8mKjxQNR1ACibvZ6lfOQ3_RmkUMHSTaK0

Some facts as I see it. ESA is not a registered event outside of Ludendi so if they say ESA has not been a Ludendi event for the past two years then they had a responsibility to report their private income to the proper authorities for the last two years and tell Ludendi about it so Ludendi could have taken a decision in the matter. If they mean the money is theirs and Ludendi was just “safekeeping” it for them during the years then I think that is called money laundering to avoid taxes. Ludendi does not have to pay taxes for entry-fees from cultural events because being a non-profit organization, the same goes for companies as they put it but they are private persons. And as one of the ESA founders I don’t want to see ESA become a company. All the money and equipment should be used for ESA in my opinion but the ownership still needs to be resolved. If they just admit ESA is defacto Ludendi’s property and will continue to be. If they accept that a neutral ESA Financial Supervisor is needed to keep tabs on them then a contract is no longer needed in my opinion but that is just me. I personally think that is more than fair.

PJ: I have not received any money from Twitch and I am not sure why even the ESA money would go to me when we have a Ludendi account and I trust Frezy_man more than anyone else in speed running. I have not even managed to get over 100 dollars from my subs. In fact, I have not even managed to gather 100 dollars in my three years of speed running .

The following statement does not reflect Ludendi views in any way. This is my personal feelings about it all so it should only reflect on me and not Ludendi. Please respect that fact.

[b]Background “Lawsuit”:[/b] In mid-late September, over a month after ESA, Frezy_man went through the Ludendi economy and posted me a summery. ESA was supposed to cost about 8000 Euros but Ludendi had only received about 3000 Euros so I told Frezy_man this and he asked Edenal about where the money had gone. We got an email with a spreadsheet with some numbers. Still not satisfied with the answer he got, Frezy_man continued asking Edenal to get more details. It then came apparent that Edenal had kept over SEK 10000 in a private account without letting us know about it. This was the reason why I got angry and wanted to consider a lawsuit against him. I was not the only Ludendi members who felt that way.

Edenal later called his private account The ESA Account during the round-table but just because you stamp the ESA name on a private account does not make it more right or legal. You cannot decide on your own on what to do with money that is not yours without letting the economic responsible party / owners know about it. That is embezzlement.

I showed this email conversation to Mr. Longhair because he was the head audio-guy for ESA 2014 until he got too sick to come and he is not in the ESA clique. He was the guy Niss3 called when setting up the audio for ESA. Mr. Longhair was also in the Ludendi meeting I will talk about later. He came to the same conclusion I did that we need to fix this fast because what Edenal had done was illegal.

[b]Full out/in payment register from the Ludendi account September 20th 2014:[/b]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oLePjaZse253fgdvwt2KfdQAt1kej0BFRCcLKQyllYw
 
(I removed the bank-account numbers because that is private information)

A small thing that could be added to this is that in the payment thread it said the money that he received from ESA attendees would be sent to the Ludendi account once a week but that did not happen once. So over SEK 40000 stayed with Edenal from the money sent from ESA attendees.

[b]ESA 2014 payment thread[/b]

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/european_speedster_assembly_2014__payment_thread.html
 
Edenal said the reason he did not send any money to the Ludendi account was because he did not have access to it and it would be a bother getting them from it. On January 22nd he received SEK 11500 from it to buy the ESA computer and during ESA on the 27th of July he received SEK 20000 from it. I agree that it seems really dumb to just send back money you are still gonna receive later.

When I asked for the bank-records from the personal ESA account and his Paypal from the day you could pay for ESA he said no. This was one day before the ESA round-table. This was also about the time the Ludendi meeting was announced on FaceBook.

[b]Ludendi Meeting October 11th:[/b] https://www.facebook.com/events/1568545303368708/

Edenal had a responsibility to tell Ludendi about how the money was being managed because ESA economy falls under Ludendi. So announcing a meeting felt like the best idea to talk about the money and the roundtable where the ESA planning group had decided to own ESA without giving us any prior warning or time to talk about it.

No-one beside me and Frezy_man got to know anything about these ESA plans and we got to know them just like a day before the announcement during the roundtable. That was when we announce the Ludendi meeting would take place at the following weekend. So the roundtable was on 5th, the meeting on the 11th. For some reason Edenal forbid us to even speak about ESA’s future during this meeting. Closer to the meeting Edenal changed his mind about it and also removed a FaceBook post he had posted in it.

[b]Present onsite during this meeting was:[/b] Frezy_man, Charlie, Magnus, Oskar, Pro_JN, Kottpower, Druvan7, LyftarN, Crippe and me.

[b]On Skype was:[/b] Mr. Longhair, Dxtr, InfestedRiche, BadBrakes, SethCharleon, Curseddolls & Edenal.

Because Ludendi is a Swedish community we were all under the impression that the meeting would be in Swedish. Flicky wanted to join the call but I thought this was really serious and that we could probably only express ourselfs in Swedish without having it watered down. Everyone else was Swedish and we manage to get someone on Skype to translate the meeting.

The meeting started off really awkwardly because no-one in the room or on Skype knew how to start and we had a lot of questions that needed to be answered as you might imagine. I tried starting the conversation by asking Edenal a question about how the money had been handled but he interrupted me and asked if it was an inquiry. So after like 20 seconds it became apparent I suck at starting a conversation so Frezy_man decided to more or less take control of the conversation. In the most neutral way possible that he could do. So the discussion started and everything seemed to go well. Everyone got to talk about their feelings about ESA.

Curseddolls talked about the nasty garbage-area next to the kitchen and the t-shirts. Infested wanted to know if it was possible to join the planning group. Oskar wanted to know if the money in the old ESA account would be transferred to the new one now. Pro_JN got to know his cow picture was in storage and not a single prize had been sent out so far. Not a single winner had been decided from ESA 2014. A lot of people asked a lot of questions but you get the picture. It was not only me there.

I wanted to get more insight in how the money had been used and find a way so it could be tracked because over SEK 40000 never made it to the Ludendi account. As I wrote earlier we had not received any recites or bank-statements at all from ESA 2014. This is still the case. All we have is that spreadsheet from the round-table. I tried looking for it on SDA while writing this but I could not find it and I looked through all ESA threads on SDA. Hopefully I just missed it or else it was not posted on here at all contrary to what Edenal said.

We discussed a new official Ludendi account just for ESA should be made and that a “ESA Financial Supervisor” position had to be determined. Dxtr volunteered for the position. This would give everyone involved in ESA the insight needed so we could avoid future economic problems. You cannot run an event with no auditing and no oversight. We were planning on opening the new ESA account as we speak. We were just waiting for Edenal to respond so we could let Dxtr open it for us.

Frezy_man thought that some kind of contract would be good to ensure that everyone got what they wanted so constructing the contract took most of the time during the meeting. Ludendi would continue to stand as owner because that would mean no legal hazzle for ESA when it comes to tax-issues because Ludendi is a non-profit organization and does not have to tax for money received through entry-fees from cultural events. Being a local non-profit organization would also give ESA a much lower rent on the proposed ESA 2015 venue. We tried to write it so that the ESA Main Organizer will have the freedom to make ESA into what he/she wants but should strive to include as much people as possible while making it. And if the community lost faith in him/her there should be a way to get a new ESA Organizer in place so it does not become a Dictatorship. I now think that part of the contract could have been written a bit better. We could atleast changed it to Team Ludendi because a majority of the ESA attendees from 2012 to 2014 are a part of it.

Edenal agreed that all equipment bought from funds from ESA is Ludendi’s. Ludendi would allow other communites to use the equipment and old tech could be lent to other communites or auctioned off on Ebay so it would not be an inside affair which I was afraid of after listening to the ESA round-table. The money in the private ESA account would be moved to the new ESA account.

You can see the contract in the OP. To me the contract looks OK and the only reason you would not want to sign it would be you are not comfortable of actually have any responsibilities towards Ludendi. I mean, Ludendi provide the equipment, the cheap venues and economic security for ESA. But the contract was still a work in progress but those were the things we discussed during the meeting.

I will include a link from the venue stating that Ludendi was defacto the host of ESA in 2014. This is the only reason why we could borrow it for free for the past two years. It is pretty easy making a marathon go with profit when you don’t have to pay any rent. As per usual they never give any credit to Ludendi for providing free rent, tax-free money and more.

[b]Official information from the venue: [/b]http://nyeport.se/european-speedster-assembly-2014/

We were still in discussions when the ESA planning group decided to post this on SDA. It makes me wonder something about the people in charge over ESA. It feels like the same dirty trick as they pulled during the round-table. About owning ESA without speaking to anyone about it. This is the second time they have done that towards Ludendi now. Well, this one seems to be all about me and they are trying to use me to split ESA from Ludendi when they have no claim for it at all.

To me it feels like Edenal does not want any responsibilities at all when it comes to running ESA and when Ludendi just wanted to get some kind of grasp of the situation he thought we (according to him me) were after his “job”. I don’t want his job. Ludendi wanted him to continue. According to me Ludendi was just asking for what was rightfully theirs and promised to give ESA the freedom to become what the community wants it to be.

After Ludendi started asking for information about the money we suddenly got a round-table which was good except the splitting ESA with Ludendi part that felt forced and shoehorned in my opinion because there is nothing about it at all in the feed-back thread and seriously no-one I talk with on Team Ludendi knew about it and I know most of them. As soon as Ludendi answered the questions that the ESA group had on the purposed contract we had worked together during the Ludendi meeting where 17 people were present we got an official statement saying Edenal was leaving and keeping ESA. He also decided to attack me personally in the process in an attempt to discredit Ludendi to make his move more acceptable but that does not make up for the wrongs he has committed against Ludendi and ESA. So I am writing this to remind him of what he has done. I am no longer gonna pretend it did not happen. I really want him to host ESA but I personally after all of this I would not let him or anyone in the planning group near the finances of ESA ever again.

Owning and doing planning+tech for a marathon is not the same thing. I still want them to host ESA but as suggested in the proposed contract ESA needs a Financial Supervisor from now on in my opinion and I put my trust in Ludendi because we have only trying to do what is right. We get to know nothing the ESA group does in advance so it would be futile to believe I have been stalling when trying to answer the SDA thread. Because most of it was directed towards me I feel like I have the right to give you all answers.

[b]The answers Ludendi received from the ESA planning group:
[/b]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eLy9RT6kom8mKjxQNR1ACibvZ6lfOQ3_RmkUMHSTaK0

Some facts as I see it. ESA is not a registered event outside of Ludendi so if they say ESA has not been a Ludendi event for the past two years then they had a responsibility to report their private income to the proper authorities for the last two years and tell Ludendi about it so Ludendi could have taken a decision in the matter. If they mean the money is theirs and Ludendi was just “safekeeping” it for them during the years then I think that is called money laundering to avoid taxes. Ludendi does not have to pay taxes for entry-fees from cultural events because being a non-profit organization, the same goes for companies as they put it but they are private persons. And as one of the ESA founders I don’t want to see ESA become a company. All the money and equipment should be used for ESA in my opinion but the ownership still needs to be resolved. If they just admit ESA is defacto Ludendi’s property and will continue to be. If they accept that a neutral ESA Financial Supervisor is needed to keep tabs on them then a contract is no longer needed in my opinion but that is just me. I personally think that is more than fair.

PJ: I have not received any money from Twitch and I am not sure why even the ESA money would go to me when we have a Ludendi account and I trust Frezy_man more than anyone else in speed running. I have not even managed to get over 100 dollars from my subs. In fact, I have not even managed to gather 100 dollars in my three years of speed running .

moofinmoofin

2014-12-04 03:19:23 pm

Snow Problem

I have come to digest these facts, but I have a question Svenne: Who is to blame? Who shit the bed? (Financially of course.)

Reed

2014-12-04 03:44:29 pm

@tiburonCS

Quote from jape:

Thank you for the write up. They say there are two sides to every story, but I am greatly inclined to believe this side, and the current planners of ESA (or whatever it might be called) have my support, and almost assuredly the support of the majority of the community. The second google doc (Q&A) is really alarming and I wish your team all the best.

QFT.

Maxiethehatter

2014-12-04 04:12:07 pm

Quote from Svenne:

TFull out/in payment register from the Ludendi account September 20th 2014:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oLePjaZse253fgdvwt2KfdQAt1kej0BFRCcLKQyllYw

(I removed the bank-account numbers because that is private information)

Just a quick thought, you say this bank draft is from 20/9-14 but the latest transaction seen is from 27/8-14.
Was there no transactions being made in this time or did you just miss a few lines?
I can also see ~35000sek being transfered to ESA which is somthing that also can be seen in the spreadsheet Edenal posted.
Said sheet also mentions a current balance of 10500sek, is this the money said to be kept in Edenals account (aka the ESA account)?

KrazyRasmus

Edit history:

KrazyRasmus: 2014-12-04 05:10:45 pm

2014-12-04 04:32:12 pm

Just for transparencies sake, in the payment register from the Ludendi account, on the 15th of may SEK 3000 was withdrawn and another SEK 4600 on the 17th of july with the remark only being Svenne. Would you mind explaining these transactions? Let it be said that I'm not insinuating anything, I just think it looks strange and I'm curious, as financial stuff should be properly marked in journals.

Svenne

Edit history:

Svenne: 2014-12-04 05:24:03 pm

2014-12-04 05:19:43 pm

Smörgåsbord

Quote from KrazyRasmus:

Just for transparencies sake, in the payment register from the Ludendi account, on the 15th of may SEK 3000 was withdrawn and another SEK 4600 on the 17th of july with the remark only being Svenne. Would you mind explaining these transactions? Let it be said that I'm not insunating anything, I just think it looks strange and I'm curious, as financial stuff should be properly marked in journals.

Yeh man, I have nothing to hide. SEK 4600 went to inflatables beds. Crippe was with me when we got them from the Rusta Store here in Skövde.

I am still in possession of SEK 2500 that belongs to Ludendi/ESA that are ment for prices. In the beginning we were gonna use the 3000 to buy in t-shirts during Dreamhack but no-one could decide what to have on the t-shirts so instead the money were used for ESA prices. The first 500 out of those 3000 was to the DK ties prices. But for some reason someone said that no-one won the DK ties during ESA so people decided to keep them for themself. So I have been just waiting to get to know the winners so I could buy new ties, send them away and then transfure the money back to the Ludendi account.

Both Frezy and Edenal knows about this and the reason I have the money so should not be a problem. If it is a problem "now" then I will just send it back to the Ludendi account.

Quote from Maxiethehatter:

Quote from Svenne:

TFull out/in payment register from the Ludendi account September 20th 2014:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oLePjaZse253fgdvwt2KfdQAt1kej0BFRCcLKQyllYw

(I removed the bank-account numbers because that is private information)

Just a quick thought, you say this bank draft is from 20/9-14 but the latest transaction seen is from 27/8-14.
Was there no transactions being made in this time or did you just miss a few lines?
I can also see ~35000sek being transfered to ESA which is somthing that also can be seen in the spreadsheet Edenal posted.
Said sheet also mentions a current balance of 10500sek, is this the money said to be kept in Edenals account (aka the ESA account)?

The dates should be correct and the only money that Ludendi has recieved is from ESA so no transactions would have been made after it. The only new thing you would find if we made a new one would be the money Ludendi sent to Edenal for Dreamhack Winter. I could just ask Frezy for a new one if needed.

[quote="KrazyRasmus"]Just for transparencies sake, in the payment register from the Ludendi account, on the 15th of may SEK 3000 was withdrawn and another SEK 4600 on the 17th of july with the remark only being Svenne. Would you mind explaining these transactions? Let it be said that I'm not insunating anything, I just think it looks strange and I'm curious, as financial stuff should be properly marked in journals.[/quote]

Yeh man, I have nothing to hide. SEK 4600 went to inflatables beds. Crippe was with me when we got them from the Rusta Store here in Skövde.

I am still in possession of SEK 2500 that belongs to Ludendi/ESA that are ment for prices. In the beginning we were gonna use the 3000 to buy in t-shirts during Dreamhack but no-one could decide what to have on the t-shirts so instead the money were used for ESA prices. The first 500 out of those 3000 was to the DK ties prices. But for some reason someone said that no-one won the DK ties during ESA so people decided to keep them for themself. So I have been just waiting to get to know the winners so I could buy new ties, send them away and then transfure the money back to the Ludendi account.

Both Frezy and Edenal knows about this and the reason I have the money so should not be a problem. If it is a problem "now" then I will just send it back to the Ludendi account.

[quote="Maxiethehatter"][quote="Svenne"]T[b]Full out/in payment register from the Ludendi account September 20th 2014:[/b]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oLePjaZse253fgdvwt2KfdQAt1kej0BFRCcLKQyllYw
 
(I removed the bank-account numbers because that is private information)
[/quote]

Just a quick thought, you say this bank draft is from 20/9-14 but the latest transaction seen is from 27/8-14.
Was there no transactions being made in this time or did you just miss a few lines?
I can also see ~35000sek being transfered to ESA which is somthing that also can be seen in the spreadsheet Edenal posted.
Said sheet also mentions a current balance of 10500sek, is this the money said to be kept in Edenals account (aka the ESA account)?[/quote]

The dates should be correct and the only money that Ludendi has recieved is from ESA so no transactions would have been made after it. The only new thing you would find if we made a new one would be the money Ludendi sent to Edenal for Dreamhack Winter. I could just ask Frezy for a new one if needed.

Alko

Edit history:

Alko: 2014-12-04 07:26:05 pm

2014-12-04 05:46:40 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Thank you very much for your write-up of the story, Svenne. Now we can truly start the discussion since we see both sides. I do not consider any post between Edenal's and Svenne's valid, except for doicm's post (which jumped to mind) and everybody else who was trying to destill information from between the lines.

At first, both sides of this argument pose a line of questions.

* Can other people who were at the Ludendi meeting Svenne talked about confirm his views?
Apparantly Edenal was present at said meeting via Skype. Are the claims Svenne is making about the meeting true or false in your point of view? If your point of view differs substantially from Svenne's, in which respect and why?
I'm assuming there's no recording of the meeting anywhere that we could send to neutral Swedes so they can confirm either side?

* Apparantly, this meeting started talking about the contract to be signed by the ESA head organisers and it was a process of phrasing sentences. Did Edenal not add his views on what can/should/should not be added? If so, why not?

* A spreadsheet is not a valid form of proving accountancy. What counts are copies of actual balance sheets, issued by the bank/screenshotted from PayPal/receipts/etc. Dear planning group, do you have receipts to back the spreadsheet's numbers? Do you have other valid proof for spending the money the way you say you did?
I'm assuming Frezy_man has the appropriate valid proof stored somewhere that can be viewed by those interested?

* Why, Edenal, did you refuse to show Svenne the requested PayPal account balances? Was the account also used for private stuff? If so, I hope you do realise that that puts you on a slippery slope? If not, was it too short a notice to anonymise data that should be anonymised? Does that mean you can provide it now or soon? Or did you just not want to show it to Svenne but would have shown Frezy_man? Was there a different reason?

* While Edenal claims it have been clear that ESA be not a part of Ludendi, the payment threads for both years clearly state that a valid method of payment is the bank transfer to Ludendi's account. How does that go together?

* Are all the reasons why Ludendi wants to 'own' ESA, or have ESA as a sub-formation of Ludendi's the one's that I can see in your post, specifically discounts for (guessing here) renting the house of culture, free renting of Nyeport and the safety of being tax-free when asking for entrance fees? If not, which am I missing?
Is Ludendi fine with ESA being a sister organisation, none of which be above or below the other? If not, why?
Would the planning group be fine with being a sister organisation of Ludendi, as said? If not, why?

* KrazyRasmus has an interesting question that I definitely want to see answered: What are the payments labelled 'Svenne'? Has been answered.

* Svenne, did you believe that you had already reached a point in the discussion where filing a lawsuit was the final suitable measure to get access to answers?

* Edenal accused you, Svenne, of using accounts both on Twitch and on Twitter to

Quote:

[make] promises that were not [yours'] to make

and

Quote:

because [you] did not want [them] to have the roundtable

How true are these accusations? If they are, why did you do so? If they are, did you consider that this kind of behaviour makes your grounds of argument weaker?

* Did other people from inside Ludendi know of this behaviour if it was true? If so, has anything been said against if by anyone?

* Is Svenne's alledged (I wasn't right there and didn't see the toilet) drunkenness in any way necessary to add to the current discussion other that it being a valid reason to ban him from ESA? If so, why? If not, why was it necessary to put it in the open? Note: 'Because he was drunk and did the wrong thing once' is not a valid answer to this question.

* Can a Swede who is neither a member of Ludendi nor a member of the planning group please translate the venue website Svenne has linked?

* A large amount of the questions in the Q&A document read as if they were directed at Svenne himself. They were, however, directed at Ludendi, and the answers read more as if they were written by Ludendi as opposed to Svenne. How does this go together?

Quote from the Q&A document:

If freedom was the goal, no contract would be needed.

* Why do you think so? I know a large number of occasions in which freedom is only guaranteed because rights, priviledges and limitations are set in writing and accepted by both sides.

Quote from ibid:

Is it possible to determine who is a member of Ludendi when the organisation have not collected fees for membership (as dictated by the bylaws) the past two years?

* I understand that this 'question' wasn't actually posed at Ludendi originally, because it was only part of the planning group's amendments. Which means that now is a perfect time to answer it. Not only the actual question there, but also: Is it true that Ludendi did not collect membership fees for two years? If so, why not?

* A lot of the yellow statements from the planning group to Ludendi's answer express fears that Ludendi would exercise too much control over the planning group. Would the contract and ideas be acceptable, if Ludendi's degree of control is formalised a lot more? E. g, the head organiser can only be removed if s/he has broken Swedish law as ruled by a Swedish court in connection with his function of head organiser or when a certain threshold of signed up attendees of this/the former ESA or Ludendi file an appropriate justified petition; the board of Ludendi being required to discuss the petition, giving the head organiser a chance to defend him/herself against the claims before they formally vote on it. (I'm not good in legal speech in English ^^') Or maybe even a constructive vote of no confidence: S/he can only be removed if a replacement candidate is voted for immediately, again having a certain quorum of signed-up attendees/Ludendi members/both required to allow the vote. Long text, sorry.

* Which of the bullet points in the proposed contract are deemed entirely unreasonable? Which ones would the planning group accept without any problems? Can the contents of the unreasonable bullet points be discussed and the wording and/or content turned into something both can agree to?

I still wish to be considered a neutral person in this argument. I still favour neither side. In fact, I wish everyone would get back together so that this whole issue can be resolved and put behind us. I attempted to question both sides; however, I know that the questions won't be distributed fairly; partly because I am a human and therefore cannot distribute fairly, partly because one side raises less accusations (them also being humans).

I acknowledge that the planning group was able to create a wonderful event called ESA 2014; however, I do not think that is the most relevant point in this discussion. On the one hand, they can give us a wonderful event while doing shady things with money which would discredit them. On the other hand, just because someone can handle money doesn't mean they can organise an event like ESA 2014, because there are further requirements.

Edit: I found a typo in there o.o''

Thank you very much for your write-up of the story, Svenne. Now we can truly start the discussion since we see both sides. I do not consider any post between Edenal's and Svenne's valid, except for doicm's post (which jumped to mind) and everybody else who was trying to destill information from between the lines.

At first, both sides of this argument pose a line of questions.

* Can other people who were at the Ludendi meeting Svenne talked about confirm his views?
   Apparantly Edenal was present at said meeting via Skype. Are the claims Svenne is making about the meeting true or false in your point of view? If your point of view differs substantially from Svenne's, in which respect and why?
   I'm assuming there's no recording of the meeting anywhere that we could send to neutral Swedes so they can confirm either side?

* Apparantly, this meeting started talking about the contract to be signed by the ESA head organisers and it was a process of phrasing sentences. Did Edenal not add his views on what can/should/should not be added? If so, why not?

* A spreadsheet is not a valid form of proving accountancy. What counts are copies of actual balance sheets, issued by the bank/screenshotted from PayPal/receipts/etc. Dear planning group, do you have receipts to back the spreadsheet's numbers? Do you have other [i]valid[/i] proof for spending the money the way you say you did?
  I'm assuming Frezy_man has the appropriate valid proof stored somewhere that can be viewed by those interested?

* Why, Edenal, did you refuse to show Svenne the requested PayPal account balances? Was the account also used for private stuff? If so, I hope you do realise that that puts you on a slippery slope? If not, was it too short a notice to anonymise data that should be anonymised? Does that mean you can provide it now or soon? Or did you just not want to show it to Svenne but would have shown Frezy_man? Was there a different reason?

* While Edenal claims it have been clear that ESA be not a part of Ludendi, the [url=https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/european_speedster_assembly_2014__payment_thread.html]payment threads[/url] for [url=https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/european_speedster_assembly_2013__payment_topic.html]both years[/url] clearly state that a valid method of payment is the bank transfer to Ludendi's account. How does that go together?

* Are all the reasons why Ludendi wants to 'own' ESA, or have ESA as a sub-formation of Ludendi's the one's that I can see in your post, specifically discounts for (guessing here) renting the house of culture, free renting of Nyeport and the safety of being tax-free when asking for entrance fees? If not, which am I missing?
  Is Ludendi fine with ESA being a sister organisation, none of which be above or below the other? If not, why?
  Would the planning group be fine with being a sister organisation of Ludendi, as said? If not, why?

[s]* KrazyRasmus has an interesting question that I definitely want to see answered: What are the payments labelled 'Svenne'?[/s] Has been answered.

* Svenne, did you believe that you had already reached a point in the discussion where filing a lawsuit was the final suitable measure to get access to answers?

* Edenal accused you, Svenne, of using accounts both on Twitch and on Twitter to [quote][make] promises that were not [yours'] to make[/quote] and [quote]because [you] did not want [them] to have the roundtable[/quote] How true are these accusations? If they are, why did you do so? If they are, did you consider that this kind of behaviour makes your grounds of argument weaker?

* Did other people from inside Ludendi know of this behaviour if it was true? If so, has anything been said against if by anyone?

* Is Svenne's alledged (I wasn't right there and didn't see the toilet) drunkenness in any way necessary to add to the current discussion other that it being a valid reason to ban him from ESA? If so, why? If not, why was it necessary to put it in the open? Note: 'Because he was drunk and did the wrong thing once' is not a valid answer to this question.

* Can a Swede who is neither a member of Ludendi nor a member of the planning group please translate the venue website Svenne has linked?

* A large amount of the questions in the Q&A document read as if they were directed at Svenne himself. They were, however, directed at Ludendi, and the answers read more as if they were written by Ludendi as opposed to Svenne. How does this go together?

[quote="the Q&A document"]If freedom was the goal, no contract would be needed.[/quote]
* Why do you think so? I know a large number of occasions in which freedom is only guaranteed because rights, priviledges and limitations are set in writing and accepted by both sides.

[quote="ibid"]Is it possible to determine who is a member of Ludendi when the organisation have not collected fees for membership (as dictated by the bylaws) the past two years?[/quote]
* I understand that this 'question' wasn't actually posed at Ludendi originally, because it was only part of the planning group's amendments. Which means that now is a perfect time to answer it. Not only the actual question there, but also: Is it true that Ludendi did not collect membership fees for two years? If so, why not?

* A lot of the yellow statements from the planning group to Ludendi's answer express fears that Ludendi would exercise too much control over the planning group. Would the contract and ideas be acceptable, if Ludendi's degree of control is formalised a lot more? E. g, the head organiser can only be removed if s/he has broken Swedish law as ruled by a Swedish court in connection with his function of head organiser or when a certain threshold of signed up attendees of this/the former ESA or Ludendi file an appropriate justified petition; the board of Ludendi being required to discuss the petition, giving the head organiser a chance to defend him/herself against the claims before they formally vote on it. (I'm not good in legal speech in English ^^') Or maybe even a constructive vote of no confidence: S/he can only be removed if a replacement candidate is voted for immediately, again having a certain quorum of signed-up attendees/Ludendi members/both required to allow the vote. Long text, sorry.

* Which of the bullet points in the proposed contract are deemed entirely unreasonable? Which ones would the planning group accept without any problems? Can the contents of the unreasonable bullet points be discussed and the wording and/or content turned into something both can agree to?

I still wish to be considered a neutral person in this argument. I still favour neither side. In fact, I wish everyone would get back together so that this whole issue can be resolved and put behind us. I attempted to question both sides; however, I know that the questions won't be distributed fairly; partly because I am a human and therefore cannot distribute fairly, partly because one side raises less accusations (them also being humans).

I acknowledge that the planning group was able to create a wonderful event called ESA 2014; however, I do not think that is the most relevant point in this discussion. On the one hand, they can give us a wonderful event while doing shady things with money which would discredit them. On the other hand, just because someone can handle money doesn't mean they can organise an event like ESA 2014, because there are further requirements.

Edit: I found a typo in there o.o''

doicm

2014-12-04 06:27:11 pm

Quote from Alko:

* Is Svenne's alledged (I wasn't right there and didn't see the toilet) drunkenness in any way necessary to add to the current discussion other that it being a valid reason to ban him from ESA? If so, why? If not, why was it necessary to put it in the open? Note: 'Because he was drunk and did the wrong thing once' is not a valid answer to this question.

Assuming this was held at a hotel or some other public convention, I would think this to be grounds for removal from the area itself. As such, this might have warranted a fair enough reason to remove the responsible party from the event as well. I don't know the full details though. As for the relevancy in the discussion, it may have just been a direct correlation for banning similar to drunk action => bannable offense, but you probably want to hear it from the horse's mouth (if it's not related to any hotel's/convention's actions).

Alko

2014-12-04 06:35:53 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from doicm:

Quote from Alko:

* Is Svenne's alledged (I wasn't right there and didn't see the toilet) drunkenness in any way necessary to add to the current discussion other that it being a valid reason to ban him from ESA? If so, why? If not, why was it necessary to put it in the open? Note: 'Because he was drunk and did the wrong thing once' is not a valid answer to this question.

Assuming this was held at a hotel or some other public convention, I would think this to be grounds for removal from the area itself. As such, this might have warranted a fair enough reason to remove the responsible party from the event as well. I don't know the full details though. As for the relevancy in the discussion, it may have just been a direct correlation for banning similar to drunk action => bannable offense, but you probably want to hear it from the horse's mouth (if it's not related to any hotel's/convention's actions).

I can expand on that one: It was held at a youth centre (Nyeport) and cultural centre (House of Culture) (the latter only being for sleeping and showering purposes). Both Nyeport rules themselves and the ESA rules said no alcohol or drunken behaviour on the premises. Let's say that the 'no alcohol' rule itself was a slightly strechy one, but being drunk inside Nyeport was basically the no-go. So yes, it's enough to remove/ban the party from the event/Nyeport building (which I called ESA there). But imho it doesn't have any further implications and should not have been brought up in this context here.

[quote="doicm"][quote="Alko"]
* Is Svenne's alledged (I wasn't right there and didn't see the toilet) drunkenness in any way necessary to add to the current discussion other that it being a valid reason to ban him from ESA? If so, why? If not, why was it necessary to put it in the open? Note: 'Because he was drunk and did the wrong thing once' is not a valid answer to this question.
[/quote]
Assuming this was held at a hotel or some other public convention, I would think this to be grounds for removal from the area itself. As such, this might have warranted a fair enough reason to remove the responsible party from the event as well. I don't know the full details though. As for the relevancy in the discussion, it may have just been a direct correlation for banning similar to drunk action => bannable offense, but you probably want to hear it from the horse's mouth (if it's not related to any hotel's/convention's actions).
[/quote]
I can expand on that one: It was held at a youth centre (Nyeport) and cultural centre (House of Culture) (the latter only being for sleeping and showering purposes). Both Nyeport rules themselves and the ESA rules said no alcohol or drunken behaviour on the premises. Let's say that the 'no alcohol' rule itself was a slightly strechy one, but being drunk inside Nyeport was basically the no-go. So yes, it's enough to remove/ban the party from the event/Nyeport building (which I called ESA there). But imho it doesn't have any further implications and should not have been brought up in this context here.

Casusby

Edit history:

Casusby: 2014-12-04 06:58:06 pm

Casusby: 2014-12-04 06:57:46 pm

Casusby: 2014-12-04 06:52:02 pm

2014-12-04 06:51:47 pm

Quote from Svenne:

Some really long post that reads like a pile of shit

What a long winded wandering post that doesn't make enough sense. If you plan on accusing Edenal and 4 other people of law breaking activities, then where is the hard evidence to show that they did commit such acts. You must have it, if you had considered and/or threatened legal action against them. Like Alko said, a google doc is not a real bank statement. Where is the proof of how much money Edenal supposedly handled, where is the actual proof of the transfers or lack thereof.

There are lots of questions of why this even happened in the first place. Why was Edenal even using his own account to take ESA payments? If Ludendi is supposedly an organization that can apply for non-profit status, surely it can set up its own paypal account.

If they had committed such an act, why are you not moving for their removal? As I understand it you're going to keep Edenal and co to run ESA except you want to have complete control over their bank accounts now? Could this be anymore obvious of a power grab?

[quote="Svenne"]Some really long post that reads like a pile of shit[/quote]

What a long winded wandering post that doesn't make enough sense. If you plan on accusing Edenal and 4 other people of law breaking activities, then where is the hard evidence to show that they did commit such acts. You must have it, if you had considered and/or threatened legal action against them. Like Alko said, a google doc is not a real bank statement. Where is the proof of how much money Edenal  supposedly handled, where is the actual proof of the transfers or lack thereof.

There are lots of questions of why this even happened in the first place. Why was Edenal even using his own account to take ESA payments? If Ludendi is supposedly an organization that can apply for non-profit status, surely it can set up its own paypal account.

If they had committed such an act, why are you not moving for their removal? As I understand it you're going to keep Edenal and co to run ESA except you want to have complete control over their bank accounts now? Could this be anymore obvious of a power grab?

Kirua

2014-12-04 09:12:28 pm

Ok here's what I get of the situation so far (some of the thoughts have been expressed by Alko & Casusby:

(Quick side note to begin with: your first post feels weird Svenne because you obviously didn't write it (i'm not saying the ideas behind it are not yours, i'm sure a lot of them are, but it's blatantly obvious for anyone who has had a conversation with you in english on the internet or seen your past posts that someone else is behind at least parts of it) and yet you start it by saying it's your views only. Basically it feels like reading a coordinated answer that is supposedly not one.)

That being said, I think the most shocking thing when you combine both views is that, and i'm sorry but there's no other way to put it, you're both equally incompetent at managing money.
- On one hand, we have Ludendi who's supposedly in charge of the money, but wouldn't have control over it? Like, you have to wait for payments and all from Edenal? I don't know, it's somewhat hard to decypher exactly what's going on because it's all lost within a convoluted post but if you're in charge of the money, you should have been the one directly paying for things to begin with. If you dedicate the money to a second account, but that account is not under control of someone in team Ludendi, then how is Ludendi effectively responsible of the money? The whole system seems amateurish at best.
-> This also makes zero sense to me "ESA was supposed to cost about 8000 Euros but Ludendi had only received about 3000 Euros". If it costs 8000 euros, why would you receive some money anyway. If something costs you 8000 euros, then you'll have -8000 euros in your bank account (or 0 if your bank account originally had 8000 in it). Why are you expecting to receive 8000 in return (as this is what you seem to be implying). Is my brain malfunctioning atm, am I missing something blatantly obvious?

- On the other hand, there's Edenal (i don't know how much the others are involved in the matter of the money but not much it seems) who sort of seems to be living in his own overly naive bubble (the reason I use the word "naive" is because of statements like: "If freedom was the goal, no contract would be needed." Seriously, spouting crap like that is embarrassing if you have the least bit knowledge of the world). From what I understand, he decided to act more independently because he was bothered by Svenne's general attitude of trying to control everything and take decisions without the consent of anybody else, while not working very actively on the event. The problem is you solve something like that after an event. You don't break (if they have indeed been broken) agreements even if you think you're in the right and then expect things to go down smoothly. It's even worse because as I understand it, he even used money from his own pocket to cover for some expenses (would need confirmation on that). But you won't have any claim to it if you were not supposed to do it to begin with, and should have been using different money "channels" (not sure what the proper english word would be).

When asked for evidence, we see some random spreadsheets. Yeah, cool, this is totally worthless. Be serious...

So basically - at least from what we know so far - there's a power hungry (& amateurish) Svenne/Ludendi on one side, and an amateurish management on the other side (to be clear, when I say amateurish, I just mean regarding the money. I'm not at all questioning the hard work you put into organizing the event, or your tech competences. That's pretty irrelevant at this point anyway.)

One thing that strikes me though is that Svenne does show many signs of an obsession with control, and with Ludendi in general:

- "I really want him to host ESA but I personally after all of this I would not let him or anyone in the planning group near the finances of ESA ever again."
-> You can't possibly be serious when you write that. This is undisguised hypocrisy. After all these events, there's no way you would want to work with Edenal. But you added an unacceptable condition to it, which would render him completely tied, and effectively your puppet. So obviously he'll never accept and you can make it look as if he's the one refusing an agreement.

- "I have not received any money from Twitch and I am not sure why even the ESA money would go to me when we have a Ludendi account and I trust Frezy_man more than anyone else in speed running."
-> It's understandable that you trust your friend Frezy, but it's always the same thing with you. When Ludendi is involved, people can be trusted, we can take your word for it, it's you against all the other corrupt members of the community blablabla. If bangerra or whoever comes and tell you that he trusts Edenal more than anyone else in speed running, and so it's fine if the person has the money, you would disregard it completely.

Basically, while you pretend to care about the community as a whole, we only ever see you talking about the interest of Ludendi's members. The reason I bring this up is because it was one of the roots of the problem I think, as you tried to single handedly force prime spots in the schedule for some of them, as you hold a meeting in swedish with unconvincing reasons, and as you generally think that trusting Ludendi should be taken for granted because you are the hero the community needs. (On a side note, there's still a lot of very unclear things about Ludendi, like the fee the members have to pay or w/e? Who's effectively part of Ludendi? You keep recruiting WR holders from all over the world and I very much doubt that all of them have a single clue about what Ludendi is. Particularly the japanese runners).

It's weird because it feels like the whole issue is happening on two different levels. For Svenne/Ludendi's side, it's all about the money & the fact that Ludendi controls it. For Edenal's side, it's all about how power hungry Svenne became impossible to work with and they reacted to that, and the money was a "side effect" of it (like it doesn't seem they tried to run with any money, just keep control of it so they could run the event without Svenne interfering). So you're both gonna continue attacking each other on different levels I feel.

Ok here's what I get of the situation so far (some of the thoughts have been expressed by Alko & Casusby:

(Quick side note to begin with: your first post feels weird Svenne because you obviously didn't write it (i'm not saying the ideas behind it are not yours, i'm sure a lot of them are, but it's blatantly obvious for anyone who has had a conversation with you in english on the internet or seen your past posts that someone else is behind at least parts of it) and yet you start it by saying it's your views only. Basically it feels like reading a coordinated answer that is supposedly not one.)

That being said, I think the most shocking thing when you combine both views is that, and i'm sorry but there's no other way to put it, you're both equally incompetent at managing money. 
- On one hand, we have Ludendi who's supposedly in charge of the money, but wouldn't have control over it? Like, you have to wait for payments and all from Edenal? I don't know, it's somewhat hard to decypher exactly what's going on because it's all lost within a convoluted post but if you're in charge of the money, you should have been the one directly paying for things to begin with. If you dedicate the money to a second account, but that account is not under control of someone in team Ludendi, then how is Ludendi effectively responsible of the money? The whole system seems amateurish at best. 
-> This also makes zero sense to me "ESA was supposed to cost about 8000 Euros but Ludendi had only received about 3000 Euros". If it costs 8000 euros, why would you receive some money anyway. If something costs you 8000 euros, then you'll have -8000 euros in your bank account (or 0 if your bank account originally had 8000 in it). Why are you expecting to receive 8000 in return (as this is what you seem to be implying). Is my brain malfunctioning atm, am I missing something blatantly obvious?

- On the other hand, there's Edenal (i don't know how much the others are involved in the matter of the money but not much it seems) who sort of seems to be living in his own overly naive bubble (the reason I use the word "naive" is because of statements like: "If freedom was the goal, no contract would be needed." Seriously, spouting crap like that is embarrassing if you have the least bit knowledge of the world). From what I understand, he decided to act more independently because he was bothered by Svenne's general attitude of trying to control everything and take decisions without the consent of anybody else, while not working very actively on the event. The problem is you solve something like that after an event. You don't break (if they have indeed been broken) agreements even if you think you're in the right and then expect things to go down smoothly. It's even worse because as I understand it, he even used money from his own pocket to cover for some expenses (would need confirmation on that). But you won't have any claim to it if you were not supposed to do it to begin with, and should have been using different money "channels" (not sure what the proper english word would be).

When asked for evidence, we see some random spreadsheets. Yeah, cool, this is totally worthless. Be serious...

So basically - at least from what we know so far - there's a power hungry (& amateurish) Svenne/Ludendi on one side, and an amateurish management on the other side (to be clear, when I say amateurish, I just mean regarding the money. I'm not at all questioning the hard work you put into organizing the event, or your tech competences. That's pretty irrelevant at this point anyway.)

One thing that strikes me though is that Svenne does show many signs of an obsession with control, and with Ludendi in general:

- "I really want him to host ESA but I personally after all of this I would not let him or anyone in the planning group near the finances of ESA ever again."
-> You can't possibly be serious when you write that. This is undisguised hypocrisy. After all these events, there's no way you would want to work with Edenal. But you added an unacceptable condition to it, which would render him completely tied, and effectively your puppet. So obviously he'll never accept and you can make it look as if he's the one refusing an agreement.

- "I have not received any money from Twitch and I am not sure why even the ESA money would go to me when we have a Ludendi account and I trust Frezy_man more than anyone else in speed running."
-> It's understandable that you trust your friend Frezy, but it's always the same thing with you. When Ludendi is involved, people can be trusted, we can take your word for it, it's you against all the other corrupt members of the community blablabla. If bangerra or whoever comes and tell you that he trusts Edenal more than anyone else in speed running, and so it's fine if the person has the money, you would disregard it completely.

Basically, while you pretend to care about the community as a whole, we only ever see you talking about the interest of Ludendi's members. The reason I bring this up is because it was one of the roots of the problem I think, as you tried to single handedly force prime spots in the schedule for some of them, as you hold a meeting in swedish with unconvincing reasons, and as you generally think that trusting Ludendi should be taken for granted because you are the hero the community needs. (On a side note, there's still a lot of very unclear things about Ludendi, like the fee the members have to pay or w/e? Who's effectively part of Ludendi? You keep recruiting WR holders from all over the world and I very much doubt that all of them have a single clue about what Ludendi is. Particularly the japanese runners).

It's weird because it feels like the whole issue is happening on two different levels. For Svenne/Ludendi's side, it's all about the money & the fact that Ludendi controls it. For Edenal's side, it's all about how power hungry Svenne became impossible to work with and they reacted to that, and the money was a "side effect" of it (like it doesn't seem they tried to run with any money, just keep control of it so they could run the event without Svenne interfering). So you're both gonna continue attacking each other on different levels I feel.

Kirua

2014-12-04 09:36:05 pm

One question I forgot to ask though (sorry for the double post):

If you have enough evidence to say "Edenal later called his private account The ESA Account during the round-table but just because you stamp the ESA name on a private account does not make it more right or legal. You cannot decide on your own on what to do with money that is not yours without letting the economic responsible party / owners know about it. That is embezzlement."

Then why not take action?

metalsmith

2014-12-04 11:16:35 pm

So, to sum it up, Person X has some uncertain amount of money from the marathon that he doesn't trust person Y to spend according to the group decisions, so he's keeping it where the people whom he trusts to make decisions can access it. Person Y is upset about it not being in the accounts of Ludendi, who is the holding body of the finances, which is under the effective control of Person Y.

To put it bluntly, we know where the money is, but it's who decides what to do with it that is up for argument at this time. There has been a call of no confidence towards the leadership of person Y, and person X and his group have reformed a new group to continue on what Ludendi was once doing.

You guys need to write detailed rules or bylaws as to how run times are decided, and how the people who are deciding things are decided, what the maximum number of months they can be in that position is, what is required for a re election to that position, etc.

To Edenal: Whether the organization that the money was supporting, Ludendi from what I gathered, was mishandling donation funds or not, you may have some legal trouble if you have money that was donated and intended for ludendi, regardless of how trustworthy your intentions are.

To Svenne: the money isn't there because no one trusts you to do what's best for the marathon and the community. It's probably a sign that you need to back of, as this has become a personal issue for you. Even if you win, if you destroy your community to do it, nothing good will come of it. The community is more important that you are. You are only a person.

Morally, I'm for edendal's group, but legally, Svenne probably has a point.

So, to sum it up, Person X has some uncertain amount of money from the marathon that he doesn't trust person Y to spend according to the group decisions, so he's keeping it where the people whom he trusts to make decisions can access it. Person Y is upset about it not being in the accounts of Ludendi, who is the holding body of the finances, which is under the effective control of Person Y.

To put it bluntly, we know where the money is, but it's who decides what to do with it that is up for argument at this time. There has been a call of no confidence towards the leadership of person Y, and person X and his group have reformed a new group to continue on what Ludendi was once doing.

You guys need to write detailed rules or bylaws as to how run times are decided, and how the people who are deciding things are decided, what the maximum number of months they can be in that position is, what is required for a re election to that position, etc.

To Edenal: Whether the organization that the money was supporting, Ludendi from what I gathered, was mishandling donation funds or not, you may have some legal trouble if you have money that was donated and intended for ludendi, regardless of how trustworthy your intentions are.

To Svenne: the money isn't there because no one trusts you to do what's best for the marathon and the community. It's probably a sign that you need to back of, as this has become a personal issue for you. Even if you win, if you destroy your community to do it, nothing good will come of it. The community is more important that you are. You are only a person.

Morally, I'm for edendal's group, but legally, Svenne probably has a point.

AdamAK

2014-12-05 02:11:23 am

Totally rad

This really seems to boil down to trying to claim some sort of ownership over ESA by Ludendi (which is a de facto defunct organisation). ESA 2012 was organised by Ludendi, while ESA2013 and 2014 were not. The latter two events were facilitated partly by Ludendi, but organisation took place by an entirely different group of people, with Ludendi having no legal ownership of the event whatsoever. As such, I'm really wondering what claim Ludendi is supposed to have on any kind of ESA-related funds, and what therefore the basis is for all the above drama.

To provide an analogy, this is as if SDA suddenly suddenly wanted to claim any GDQ funds because the GDQs started off on this website and the event is still facilitated by SDA (e.g., forums). It's bullshit and has no moral nor legal basis.

KrazyRasmus

2014-12-05 02:45:53 am

Quote from Svenne:

I am still in possession of SEK 2500 that belongs to Ludendi/ESA that are ment for prices. In the beginning we were gonna use the 3000 to buy in t-shirts during Dreamhack but no-one could decide what to have on the t-shirts so instead the money were used for ESA prices. The first 500 out of those 3000 was to the DK ties prices. But for some reason someone said that no-one won the DK ties during ESA so people decided to keep them for themself. So I have been just waiting to get to know the winners so I could buy new ties, send them away and then transfure the money back to the Ludendi account.

Both Frezy and Edenal knows about this and the reason I have the money so should not be a problem. If it is a problem "now" then I will just send it back to the Ludendi account.

Thanks for the quick answer. Why are you still holding the money, on which I assume is your personal account, after 6 months?

Niss3

2014-12-05 04:45:36 am

Showing you how to PWN games!

This is just my personal thoughs. Even if they are irrelevant I felt like sharing them.

ESA has been organised several times already. Each time I've noticed one big problem - lack of organisation. There has always been problems with responsibilities. Noone ever truly was in charge or had specific responsibilities in certain areas. I believe people often volunteered or simply helped out with what they did last time. Still, it has always worked out because of incredible enthusiasts. These people are real heroes! They all knew what had to be done and everyone helped out to make it happen. Even though there were hardships they were managed. These people should be very proud of these accomplishments!

So now when ESA has grown and there are an incredible amount of enthusiasts that wants to help out. How do we decide who does what? What happens when there's a quarrel between two parts that want to take charge and responsibility of one department?

I think it would be great if ESA had a real organisation. Personally, I rejoiced when a group stepped up and claimed this position. I also felt really sad that they didn't get every ones acceptance. I guess there could have been some kind of internal discussion or an official election of this group to ensure that everyone got satisfied.

But now then, here we are, in the mists of a power struggle. I wish that every enthusiast that want this wonderful event to keep happening can sit down and talk this out. I know it's very hard, but for the communities best, please try to forgive past mishappenings and instead focus on the future!

This is just my personal thoughs. Even if they are irrelevant I felt like sharing them.

ESA has been organised several times already. Each time I've noticed one big problem - lack of organisation. There has always been problems with responsibilities. Noone ever truly was in charge or had specific responsibilities in certain areas. I believe people often volunteered or simply helped out with what they did last time. Still, it has always worked out because of incredible enthusiasts. These people are real heroes! They all knew what had to be done and everyone helped out to make it happen. Even though there were hardships they were managed. These people should be very proud of these accomplishments!

So now when ESA has grown and there are an incredible amount of enthusiasts that wants to help out. How do we decide who does what? What happens when there's a quarrel between two parts that want to take charge and responsibility of one department?

I think it would be great if ESA had a real organisation. Personally, I rejoiced when a group stepped up and claimed this position. I also felt really sad that they didn't get every ones acceptance. I guess there could have been some kind of internal discussion or an official election of this group to ensure that everyone got satisfied.

But now then, here we are, in the mists of a power struggle. I wish that every enthusiast that want this wonderful event to keep happening can sit down and talk this out. I know it's very hard, but for the communities best, please try to forgive past mishappenings and instead focus on the future!

Onin

2014-12-05 08:29:25 am

This is honestly sounding like Ludendi thinks it should be financing ESA, yet simultaneously fails at financing ESA by never being available to dispense finances to the organizers. So then Edenal does the only thing he can do and sets up his own system of finance which is by necessity disconnected from Ludendi. And then Ludendi thinks it owns Edenal's finances and the fact that it doesn't have access to them is a embezzlement? I don't know Swedish law but this sounds like utter bullshit.

I can't tell if the above is actually the case, but it seems pretty clear from both accounts that Ludendi hasn't got their shit together. So that disqualifies Ludendi from being a reliable organizer for ESA. Edenal and the others may not be any more professional when it comes to the business-side of things, but they've been the ones delivering with successful annual ESA events.

If there is legitimate basis for a lawsuit, then file a damn lawsuit. That doesn't make me any more or less convinced of Ludendi's capabilities. ESA needs to be independent. I don't think it ever stopped being independent, but I don't know the figures. Dependence leads to this shit, we don't need this shit, stay independent.

This is honestly sounding like Ludendi thinks it should be financing ESA, yet simultaneously fails at financing ESA by never being available to dispense finances to the organizers. So then Edenal does the only thing he can do and sets up his own system of finance which is by necessity disconnected from Ludendi. And then Ludendi thinks it owns Edenal's finances and the fact that it doesn't have access to them is a embezzlement? I don't know Swedish law but this sounds like utter bullshit.

I can't tell if the above is actually the case, but it seems pretty clear from both accounts that Ludendi hasn't got their shit together. So that disqualifies Ludendi from being a reliable organizer for ESA. Edenal and the others may not be any more professional when it comes to the business-side of things, but they've been the ones delivering with successful annual ESA events.

If there is legitimate basis for a lawsuit, then file a damn lawsuit. That doesn't make me any more or less convinced of Ludendi's capabilities. ESA needs to be independent. I don't think it ever stopped being independent, but I don't know the figures. Dependence leads to this shit, we don't need this shit, stay independent.

Raelcun

2014-12-05 02:26:11 pm

We require more minerals

As a member of the community that was not involved with ESA, and since the original post was asking the community what we thought about who should organize the next ESA, I feel like it's important to leave this opinion.

Reading through the posts, both from Edenal, Svenne, and other involved parties, all I really see is a lot of unnecessary cluttering of the facts with accusations and implications about intent, including but not limited to a few passive aggressive statements from both sides. It's impossible for me, as someone who was not involved, to make any reasonable judgement based on anything in this thread because of everything that's getting in the way. I realize emotions are high for people who put so much time and effort into events, but if you truly want the community's opinion all of this needs to be removed and we need a more clear picture.

But since the entire point of the OP is to ask what our opinion is, my opinion would be that in order to move forward, this issue needs to be resolved in a manner that can remove whatever the source of this drama is from the future organization of ESA events. If it turns out to be that both Svenne and or Ludendi and the current organizers cannot get beyond this and the issue keeps getting in the way, then it seems pretty clear that this will be a problem for future events.

tl;dr I don't know enough about the inner workings of ESA and all of the planning that went on ahead of time to say if Edenal and co. should be removed, just that this issue should be resolved internally without all of the airing of dirty laundry before the community can be asked to give a reasonable opinion. Otherwise, it feels like we're being put on the spot to make a judgement based on potentially faulty information.

As a member of the community that was not involved with ESA, and since the original post was asking the community what we thought about who should organize the next ESA, I feel like it's important to leave this opinion.

Reading through the posts, both from Edenal, Svenne, and other involved parties, all I really see is a lot of unnecessary cluttering of the facts with accusations and implications about intent, including but not limited to a few passive aggressive statements from both sides. It's impossible for me, as someone who was not involved, to make any reasonable judgement based on anything in this thread because of everything that's getting in the way. I realize emotions are high for people who put so much time and effort into events, but if you truly want the community's opinion all of this needs to be removed and we need a more clear picture.

But since the entire point of the OP is to ask what our opinion is, my opinion would be that in order to move forward, this issue needs to be resolved in a manner that can remove whatever the source of this drama is from the future organization of ESA events. If it turns out to be that both Svenne and or Ludendi and the current organizers cannot get beyond this and the issue keeps getting in the way, then it seems pretty clear that this will be a problem for future events.

tl;dr I don't know enough about the inner workings of ESA and all of the planning that went on ahead of time to say if Edenal and co. should be removed, just that this issue should be resolved internally without all of the airing of dirty laundry before the community can be asked to give a reasonable opinion. Otherwise, it feels like we're being put on the spot to make a judgement based on potentially faulty information.

Alko

2014-12-05 04:11:25 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from Kirua:

(Quick side note to begin with: your first post feels weird Svenne because you obviously didn't write it (i'm not saying the ideas behind it are not yours, i'm sure a lot of them are, but it's blatantly obvious for anyone who has had a conversation with you in english on the internet or seen your past posts that someone else is behind at least parts of it) and yet you start it by saying it's your views only. Basically it feels like reading a coordinated answer that is supposedly not one.)

Yeah, that struck me, too. However, until proven otherwise, I shall assume that it was Svenne who wrote it in a language he is comfortable with (say Swedish) and got a lot of help from someone who is capable of English. Or wrote it in Svenglish and got help turning the sentences into well phrased English. In dubio pro reo as they put it in Rome.
(In fact, thinking about it, I have an idea who could have been the helping hand in the background, but since it's entirely irrelevant to the discussion, I'll keep it to myself.)

Edenal, I see you did post a lot of things in the ESA15 Skype group. Some of it seems to answer questions, some of it points towards solving the problem. Other people who posted in this thread read it, too. Will that stuff make it over here sometime? Wink

[quote="Kirua"](Quick side note to begin with: your first post feels weird Svenne because you obviously didn't write it (i'm not saying the ideas behind it are not yours, i'm sure a lot of them are, but it's blatantly obvious for anyone who has had a conversation with you in english on the internet or seen your past posts that someone else is behind at least parts of it) and yet you start it by saying it's your views only. Basically it feels like reading a coordinated answer that is supposedly not one.)[/quote]
Yeah, that struck me, too. However, until proven otherwise, I shall assume that it was Svenne who wrote it in a language he is comfortable with (say Swedish) and got a lot of help from someone who is capable of English. Or wrote it in Svenglish and got help turning the sentences into well phrased English. [i]In dubio pro reo[/i] as they put it in Rome.
(In fact, thinking about it, I have an idea who could have been the helping hand in the background, but since it's entirely irrelevant to the discussion, I'll keep it to myself.)

Edenal, I see you did post a lot of things in the ESA15 Skype group. Some of it seems to answer questions, some of it points towards solving the problem. Other people who posted in this thread read it, too. Will that stuff make it over here sometime? ;)

btrim

2014-12-05 04:13:25 pm

All I want to say is that I don't care if the summer marathon in Europe is called ESA or not. If that becomes a stumbling point for some reason, just change the name and move on.

It seems obvious that the organizer group and ludendi are at an impasse and will not work together in the future.