Super Meat Boy... ?

2012-07-25 11:44:47 am

Not a walrus

Quote from groobo:

Quote:

Precedent against the glitch: It resembles "crooked cartridge" or "don't mess with the system while you're playing".

How so? There are games which you can't even alttab from. There are also games in which, unfocusing the form doesn't even freeze one bit of the code because the programmers didn't tell it to do so (unlike smb). How any of this has anything to do with system manipulation?

You're trying to mix in two different counterarguments here that have nothing to do with each other. How is it relevant that this technique isn't useful on every single Windows game? Most games aren't helped by popping open the disc cover either.

groobo

2012-07-25 12:04:14 pm

boss

Quote:

Groobo please don't base your responses/arguments on research you did over a year ago.
A lot of timer issues have been fixed with later patches.

Thing is - most, if not all of my arguments from a year ago are still valid. Feel free to prove me wrong.

And before I forget it: spawn jumping was also an argument against using the timer.

Quote:

Also if unfocusing the game window would be allowed it would lead to a lot of dumb crap like instant mouse-movement in mouse-based games for example.

So let the runner of THAT game worry about that. Stuff like this was decided on a case by case basis since I first can remember. It was allowed in diablo and that it's allowed in smb came straight from Mike - there's no point in arguing what it can lead to in a hypothetical game-that-never-was. That's why we have a category for people that don't like glitches and a separate one for ones that do.

Quote:

How is it relevant that this technique isn't useful on every single Windows game?

I've explained why this technique doesn't fall under neither system or machine manipulation.

[quote]Groobo please don't base your responses/arguments on research you did over a year ago.
A lot of timer issues have been fixed with later patches.[/quote]
Thing is - most, if not all of my arguments from a year ago are still valid. Feel free to prove me wrong.

And before I forget it: spawn jumping was also an argument against using the timer.

[quote]Also if unfocusing the game window would be allowed it would lead to a lot of dumb crap like instant mouse-movement in mouse-based games for example.[/quote]
So let the runner of THAT game worry about that. Stuff like this was decided on a case by case basis since I first can remember. It was allowed in diablo and that it's allowed in smb came straight from Mike - there's no point in arguing what it can lead to in a hypothetical game-that-never-was. That's why we have a category for people that don't like glitches and a separate one for ones that do.

[quote]How is it relevant that this technique isn't useful on every single Windows game?[/quote]
I've explained why this technique doesn't fall under neither system or machine manipulation.

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2012-07-25 12:13:26 pm

Exo: 2012-07-25 12:12:30 pm

2012-07-25 12:11:50 pm

Sandbagging

Quote from groobo:

Thing is - most, if not all of my arguments from a year ago are still valid. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Play the game to prove yourself wrong.

Anyways I've got more important things (any% attempts) to do than to keep arguing with someone who isn't going to change his mind even though multiple people disagree with him.

P.S.: Mike Uyama is a great argument isn't it/he.

P.P.S.: Please don't turn this thread into a flame war. Use PMs.

groobo

2012-07-25 12:14:19 pm

boss

The glitch is still allowed. What do I have to prove again?

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2012-07-25 12:21:46 pm

2012-07-25 12:18:20 pm

Sandbagging

You might want to take a bit more time with reading posts.
The quote in my previous post was clearly not about the glitch.

P.S.: I fail to see how spawnjumping is an argument against using the ingame timer when you can do it just as well in an rta timed IL (not that spawnjumps are used in any ILs to begin with assuming we are talking about the same technique).

Jintek

Edit history:

Jintek: 2012-07-25 02:01:26 pm

2012-07-25 02:01:14 pm

An interesting conversation, for me it just boils down to not being interested in the "category". I suppose after reading the thread some levels could indeed have very interesting strats using the lag glitch, but it's just not my cup of tea, and I don't think those SS runs should be directly comparable to Exo's legit runs.

But I think the spawnjumping analogy is poor, a better analogy would probably be the wall slide, correct me if I'm wrong. But that probably wasn't designed by Ed and Tommy to be used for "high scores", it just ended up as a useful expolit (and a sort of detriment at times) to achieve faster times. But nobody bats an eye at those (I even use it where applicable). Another thing is that so far the lag glitch is only usable when using a keyboard, maybe Joy2Key would work on a controller, but it limits the availability of using it to particular types of inputs. Whereas a exploit like wall sliding can be done using anything. So interesting discussion, just in my opinion if you're going to put time and energy into IL's or SS, might as well do it legit. But that's just me... :\

An interesting conversation, for me it just boils down to not being interested in the "category".  I suppose after reading the thread some levels could indeed have very interesting strats using the lag glitch, but it's just not my cup of tea, and I don't think those SS runs should be directly comparable to Exo's legit runs.

But I think the spawnjumping analogy is poor, a better analogy would probably be the wall slide, correct me if I'm wrong.  But that probably wasn't designed by Ed and Tommy to be used for "high scores", it just ended up as a useful expolit (and a sort of detriment at times) to achieve faster times.  But nobody bats an eye at those (I even use it where applicable).  Another thing is that so far the lag glitch is only usable when using a keyboard, maybe Joy2Key would work on a controller, but it limits the availability of using it to particular types of inputs.  Whereas a exploit like wall sliding can be done using anything.  So interesting discussion, just in my opinion if you're going to put time and energy into IL's or SS, might as well do it legit.  But that's just me... :\

Exo

2012-07-25 02:07:29 pm

Sandbagging

I think groobo is refering to spawnjumps where you jump without a wall nearby.
It's explained somewhere in this thread afaik.

Jintek

2012-07-25 02:32:26 pm

^You mean like when Meat Boy spawns next to a wall and you can sort of almost immediately do the walljump? Sorry for my ignorance about this stuff, just never really used any exploits besides the wall slide.

Little change of pace, but I was wondering if chars like Mr. Minecraft and Meat Ninja would be fair game in a SS "category", or maybe even 4Bit whenever his quicker spawn can be useful? Are there any chars that are not acceptable for SS?

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2012-07-25 02:56:10 pm

Exo: 2012-07-25 02:56:06 pm

Exo: 2012-07-25 02:55:59 pm

Exo: 2012-07-25 02:53:25 pm

2012-07-25 02:52:14 pm

Sandbagging

I guess it would be considered NG+ in that case.
If thats a run youre planning on doing then you'd have to switch chars wherever they save time (of course only if switching chars doesnt negate the time saved).

About the spawnjump:
No its a walljump when there is no wall near the spawn.
Its achieved by dying while sliding or something like that.
After that you can perform a walljump on the first frame that you spawn even when theres no wall around.
Im not sure if that got fixed in later patches.
Anyways nobody uses it in ILs to begin with.

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2012-07-25 03:39:22 pm

UraniumAnchor: 2012-07-25 03:34:14 pm

2012-07-25 03:32:09 pm

Not a walrus

Quote from groobo:

Quote:

How is it relevant that this technique isn't useful on every single Windows game?

I've explained why this technique doesn't fall under neither system or machine manipulation.

No you didn't, you said the technique doesn't apply to all games and therefore isn't system manipulation. Do you not see how ridiculous this argument is?

Quote from Exo:

I guess it would be considered NG+ in that case.
If thats a run youre planning on doing then you'd have to switch chars wherever they save time (of course only if switching chars doesnt negate the time saved).

About the spawnjump:
No its a walljump when there is no wall near the spawn.
Its achieved by dying while sliding or something like that.
After that you can perform a walljump on the first frame that you spawn even when theres no wall around.
Im not sure if that got fixed in later patches.
Anyways nobody uses it in ILs to begin with.

Yeah, that sounds like 'extra setup' that should count as part of the IL time so I don't see how it would ever save time.

[quote="groobo"][quote]How is it relevant that this technique isn't useful on every single Windows game?[/quote]
I've explained why this technique doesn't fall under neither system or machine manipulation.
[/quote]

No you didn't, you said the technique doesn't apply to all games and therefore isn't system manipulation. Do you not see how ridiculous this argument is?

[quote="Exo"]I guess it would be considered NG+ in that case.
If thats a run youre planning on doing then you'd have to switch chars wherever they save time (of course only if switching chars doesnt negate the time saved).

About the spawnjump:
No its a walljump when there is no wall near the spawn.
Its achieved by dying while sliding or something like that.
After that you can perform a walljump on the first frame that you spawn even when theres no wall around.
Im not sure if that got fixed in later patches.
Anyways nobody uses it in ILs to begin with.[/quote]

Yeah, that sounds like 'extra setup' that should count as part of the IL time so I don't see how it would ever save time.

Exo

2012-07-25 04:21:48 pm

Sandbagging

In some cases it can save a few seconds of time so a character change is worth it.

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2012-07-25 05:33:52 pm

2012-07-25 04:38:09 pm

Not a walrus

I mean the spawnjumping thing, not character switches.

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2012-07-25 04:50:43 pm

Exo: 2012-07-25 04:50:31 pm

2012-07-25 04:49:37 pm

Sandbagging

Oh my bad. Now the SS->IL "typo" makes a lot more sense haha.

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2012-07-25 05:33:38 pm

2012-07-25 05:33:14 pm

Not a walrus

Yeah I probably included too much of that quote. Oops.

I've been watching Breakdown's 106% streams lately, I know how much time character switches can save!

Takuji

2012-07-26 05:23:51 am

Quote from Jintek:

^You mean like when Meat Boy spawns next to a wall and you can sort of almost immediately do the walljump? Sorry for my ignorance about this stuff, just never really used any exploits besides the wall slide.

Little change of pace, but I was wondering if chars like Mr. Minecraft and Meat Ninja would be fair game in a SS "category", or maybe even 4Bit whenever his quicker spawn can be useful? Are there any chars that are not acceptable for SS?

From what I know when you complete a level with Minecraft or Meat ninja the actual level doesnt even finish, they're just there for fun I guess :), also obviously 4bit would be fair (I guess?).

ridd3r.

2012-07-26 12:54:45 pm

we have lift off

Quote from UraniumAnchor:

Yeah I probably included too much of that quote. Oops.

I've been watching Breakdown's 106% streams lately, I know how much time character switches can save!

Is he actually going for a SS deathless 106%?

mike89

2012-07-26 02:19:52 pm

SEGA Junkie

Dunno about deathless, but he's working on it for the next AGDQ, so it should be looking pretty smooth by then.

Mundungu

2012-07-26 09:09:25 pm

All this nonsense can be avoided by playing the XBOX version, which is far more playable. Does anyone have a good xbox time out there?

André

2012-07-26 10:39:48 pm

Main Work!!!

I'm trying to sub 20/20m30 around this, it's coming soon Tongue

.

UraniumAnchor

2012-07-26 11:00:23 pm

Not a walrus

Deathless SS 106% would require insane luck with glitch girl or a LOT of stage reloads. On top of... well... Dark Cotton Alley. I really don't think it'll ever happen.

Breakdown

2012-07-27 10:51:13 pm

Haters gonna hate

Quote from ridd3r.:

Is he actually going for a SS deathless 106%?

In the sense that when I play I'm not trying to die, yes I'm trying for deathless ;). Really, it's just marathon practice and as of now I don't really plan to chase a submittable run. My best currently is a 1:53:19 which can be seen here: http://www.twitch.tv/breakdown777/b/325031471

Lots of improvement still possible, and my route keeps changing (for example Flywench just picked up about 13 levels). I'm really not sure how low it can go as of yet. Sub 1:45 is definitely possible with my current strats, probably significantly lower than that.

Jintek

2012-08-01 04:50:41 am

1-19 - 7.07 secs

Dat slide!

andrewg

2012-08-01 05:09:12 am

I'm curious about something I observed when playing this game back in December.

In some cases, it appeared that one would save a frame or so, if upon dying they were traveling at a fast rate. Upon restarting, there is some momentum still applied to the character. Is this ever used in ILs?

I remember this specifically when testing one IL... I'm trying to remember, but essentially, depending on how you died, you could drift into the wall after spawning, where initially you wouldn't normally be able to.

Jintek

2012-08-01 05:11:17 am

I never use it on IL's, and to my knowledge none of the other high level players (on PC) do either. Can't speak for 360.

andrewg

2012-08-01 05:26:43 am

Seriously, I'd love to do a run of this game eventually. If I ever have access to an Xbox360, I'm going to have to try a few runs. I was really obsessed with this game when it came out.