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Sir VG:
registered on 2005-03-27 07:15:20 pm.
 
Gender: male
Location: Home
Fucking Weeaboo
1. Yes.
2. It helps to have Homebrew Channel installed for installing Priiloader and using a WAD manager program.
3. If you have an older Wii that can use BootMii, you can backup the Wii's NAND which will save you from MOST things.  Generally, playing around with the Wii is safe if you get your WADs from trusted sources (again, can't list where due to SDA's rules).
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
Edit history:
Musashi: 2012-03-14 09:43:08 am
Musashi: 2012-03-14 09:39:42 am
But time flows like a river...
Hey !

Okay so, after two bricks of my wii installing a LOT of custom shits lol, I finally managed to launch the game in NTSC, I don't know yet if the game is played in 60hz, my TV isn't showing it, I have to move my wii to another TV, but I'll check it later, but yeah, it's working !
Time to practice now, cause the classic wii controller is different than a snes pad. Tongue

Thanks for all of this Sir Vg.  Wink
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-06-11 04:37:33 am
INTJ
Hiho, *digging out thread*

after I more or less finished Diablo 3 I was a bit bored. Now I think about running SoM (very) casually once in a while. I'm not sure how far you are, Musashi, but do you have some tips/tricks to share which are not obvious from the video you posted?
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-06-15 03:52:13 pm
INTJ
Random Question, just in case anyone knows:
- Is the duration of a spell animation anywhere relevant outside of the last spell you want to see the damage-number after?
As in: It should be more beneficial to cast Gem Missile and then Earth Slide instead of Earth Slide and then Gem Missile, right?

Edit: Also, after knowing a bit more about the technical stuff of SoM after reading/getting input from the TASvideos thread, Musashi's run seems really well optimized as far as I can tell - without thinking too much about it, simply re-watching the run o.o
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
Edit history:
Musashi: 2012-06-16 05:01:24 am
Musashi: 2012-06-16 04:58:03 am
But time flows like a river...
Hey.

Tbh I'm not too far, I've played a bit on my Wii, but... this classic controller piss me off, I hate it. Cheesy
And I didn't really play.

But I played on emulator again to find tricks/improvements, I have find some tips that I can post here:

- During Killroy and Jabberwocky fight, you can one shot them, you just do the weapon glitch, and instead of using the weapon glitch instantly, you put the character position at the down right, then you wait 5-6seconds, the character won't attack but you'll see the weapon level charging, there is 36 possibles charge (I'm not sure about the number, this is something like that) then you re-place your character at the left in the weapon level menu, then your character just one shot the boss.

You must be really lucky, because sometime the character's attack will just miss, and you won't do any damage, so, it's risky, but can work.

-Haunted Forest, when you rescue the girl, the Werewolves have two "templates", both attack you in the front, or just one is coming, and there is a trick for the 2nd solution (if it's the first, you just attack and you will hit them both, so you just switch with popoi and it's easy), but if there is only one werewolf who attack you, you just attack with the boy, then instantly you put him in the down left, then switch to popoi, and you will be able to hit them both because the second werewolf will come by himself during the "transition".

It's really hard to explain (and I suck in explanation...), but try by yourself and you'll see, if this is really not clear about that, I could make an avi. Tongue

That's all what I found.

Now about your question, I don't know, but I'm not using Gem Missile, Earth slide animation is faster, doing more damage, so. Tongue

For my run, there is a lot of improvement, just see how I am managing the menu, this is pathetic, I'm losing a lot of time, but it's really hard to keep concentrate with this menu when you have a 3 hours run, and you have to switch the weapon, the gears, magic, using walnuts, doing a glitch, well you know what I mean.

Honestly with all theses improvements, I think you can beat sub 3h15, if you have the luck, and you do all the glitches perfectly.

The most random part of the game still when you have to kill your party to get the XP, 15 times in a row you can just have noluck, and your earth slide hit the boy instead of the girl... can kill your run.

And the last walnuts glitch... can fuck  your game if you don't have the required number of items, I don't know exactly how it's working, cause it's different all the time, but be sure to have everytime at least one candy, one herb, and NEVER use them all, or you'll be fucked up.

I wish you good luck, cause this game is really random if you want a perfect time, mine is not, neither the japanese speedrunner on nicovideo (he has 3h19 or 3h20).

Hope you have understand my post. Cheesy
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-06-16 06:25:56 am
Yagamoth: 2012-06-16 06:25:25 am
INTJ
Yes I do understand I guess - also, the part with the classic controller - that's what I've figured Wink

With optimized I mostly meant the overall concept on why you use which attacks on which bosses. I know, that Gnomes Earth Slide and Undines Freeze have the same attack power, and only 2 relevant bosses per element do exist, which are particularly weak to a certain element ("relevant" because for the rest you don't have the necessary Spells if they would have a weakness). That's where some of my questions would come from - why use Undine instead of Gnome on certain bosses that have no weakness to Undine (since Gnome was higher level)? I thought it may have something to do with the 2 instead of 3 MP cost. Also, the difference between higher level spells (e.g. 5 and 6) is much smaller than the difference on lower level spells (e.g. 0 and 1).

Also, could it be beneficial to item-glitch 4 more Cup of Wishes - at the same time when you glitch the Walnuts - to gain more levels when doing the reflect-leveling? I mean, on certain parts 100% avoid would be really awesome. I have no idea though, how long it would last and if it would outweigh glitching 4 more and extending the length. I do think however, getting level ~50 on the Sprite could be really beneficial, since you would make full use of the Feary Walnuts by having 50+ MP... No idea whether you actually need that MP anymore though.

I'm currently trying to figure out how exactly the item-glitch works... Anyone has a simple explanation for it?
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
Edit history:
Musashi: 2012-06-16 07:10:53 am
But time flows like a river...
You mean I am using Undine against Mecha Rider #2 instead of Gnome for example?

This is because I need Undine for PureLand against the two bosses which have Undine's weakness, so I am leveling.
This is the same why I am using Athanor against the Ninja to reach lvl 2 for the next part.

I don't really care about the MP since I glitch the walnuts.

And no you can't have infinite glitched items, you can't just glitch 8 walnuts and 8 cup of wishes, or you have to drop another item.
I'm not reaching lvl 50 because it's really long and useless, I get enough Magic Power and MP to kill everything. (I made some test) + the glitch is calculted with the current XP of the guy killed, so you have to level Randi or Purim if you want more XP, you can see I am killing Randi first, and not four times Purim, because I need an amount of XP.
That's why I killed Randi during the Emperor's Castle.

You can see the explanation of this glitch on TASvideos. Tongue
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
INTJ
Oh... Right... I made my spell stuff list without Pure Land since I intend to skip it ^^;

And.. .That's a good point, reading up on the exp glitch. I remember someone mentioning, that the weapons carried also affect the exp?
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
But time flows like a river...
Ah ok if you skip it then ok... but I can't tell if your level will be enough for the Mana Fortress.

Hem I don't think the weapons are related with the XP, got a link about that? And related with the XP glitch or something else?
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
INTJ
Hmm... I can't seem to find it... I thought it was Nitrodon who posted something about this. But neither in this nor in the TASvideos thread I can find something related. So either I remembered wrong about the whole thing or it was someone else
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
But time flows like a river...
Maybe you were thinking that when you just hit an enemy and don't kill it, you gain 50% of the total XP for your weapon and not 100% as a kill do.

I don't see another explanation, because the level XP is not related with the weapons, at least I never heard something like that, but I may be wrong of course. ^^
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-06-19 02:57:11 am
INTJ
I'll simply test it the next time I come by the shadow temple. It would be weird, true, but it's also weird, that you can gain so much exp by killing your own party members Wink

Also, I'm currently trying to figure out, whether it could be worthwhile to have a "controlled" overcharge by using the weapon-switch method. As of now, I doubt it, simply because it takes more effort to level 2 weapons and the method you use with the aggro-management of the AI seems fairly reliable. (not to mention that it's slower to execute anyways)
Also, I'm not even sure yet, which 2nd weapon I'd level up for that purpose. You get the spear early when you already have the Sword on Level 1, but there would potentially also be time lost due to the axe being the only cut-option for brushes...

Basically, I'd need not only one, but probably a few boss fights where a controlled overcharge is either much more reliable or spamming magic would be much slower to make up for the time lost of the longer execution, leveling a second weapon and switching weapons at times. As of now I can't see that being the case (but I'm only using theory here - maybe you'd have some input for that ^^)

Edit: It could also be, that it would end up in a more efficient use of Walnuts.. Ah... So much to consider. I guess the I should start with the simple things and try to figure out, how much time would be lost to level up a second weapon oô..
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
Edit history:
Musashi: 2012-06-19 05:12:38 am
But time flows like a river...
The XP glitch is calculated like that:

[The XP of the killed player] % 65536

So you have to check if your party has enough XP for this glitch, if you have too much XP you will have 0, so you won't get so many XP, that's why I killed Randi.

Btw so you're doing a two controllers run? Since you said you will do the PureLand skip, so you'll be able to have two glitched attack at the same time, so you can gain much time than my run.
Of course this is more difficult two glitched attacks, but I don't know if it's not a separate category using the PureLand skip since it's require two controllers than a 1-player run.

The best second weapon is the boomerang, you can hit twice like in the TAS, but I doubt you can do it, I think this is impossible for a real run. Tongue
But yeah, the fastest way is the Spear, and the glitched attack of the Spear has a "big" range, for the weapon I suggest you Sword for Randi, Spear for Popoie and just give the axe to Purim for the Haunted Forest, then switch with the Whip, then you'll just need the Axe for the Matango part, you won't really waste time by switching.

For the walnuts part, tbh I think my bosses strats are the best, there is some bosses like the Gigas, when they take a hit just disaspear or cast a spell, and you can't one shot them, even with two 999 glitched attack, so walnuts are the best.
And I don't see another bosses where you can use a different strategy than mine, cause some bosses have a fucked hitbox or run away (Buffy, The Eagle).

I am not saying my run is the best (I took strategy from Touch-Me's run and hotarubi (蛍火)'s run), I made really a ton of test using save states, and I find nothing improvable. Tongue

You could improve the bosses part by using the weapon glitch if you can one shot them with two attacks, if you are able to do it, I wish you good luck for that. Cheesy

Oh btw Touch-Me gave me an explanation of the "Item Selling Glitch" long time ago, I post it, if it can helps.

Quote:
In SoM, collected items are stored in 12bytes of RAMs: 1 item per 1 byte.
There are 32 kinds of items and you can posses 7 items maximum of the same kind (though usually limited by 4 items).
In the memory, lower 5 bits indicates what kind of item you have, and upper 3 bits tells you how many items you have.
For example, 0x40 means two candies and 0x20 is one candy, or 0x26 means one magic rope and 0x06 is zero magic ropes.
If you don't have an item, the memory is 0xFF.
0xFF usually means a blank. But if the cursor points the item 0xFF, you can sell it with 30k GP.
In fact, 0xFF calculates as if you have zero glitched items "BLAT".
When you sell it, the RAM number is subtracted by 0x20 then becomes 0xCF, which means 7 "BLAT"s.

The Rope Glitch can only set the cursor to the blank, like this way.

If you have 2 candies, 1 chocolates, 1 herbs, 1 ropes, and nothing, and the cursor points the rope, then the 12bytes RAMS become like this. (hexadecimal)

40 21 24 (26) FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF

() means the cursor. Keep the cursor and sell chocolates and herbs. Then these RAMs become like below.

40 26 (FF) FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF

The cursor moves once, but not more than twice. So you can select the blank item (zero "BLAT"s).
In this situation, the former 2 items are displayed as item icons.
But the actual items are glitched. Described candies is actually a magic rope, and the described magic rope is zero BLATs.

This glitched situation will be finished if you buy something or restart the game.
But if you sell the blank to earn 30k GPs and get new item (like chocolate), then the RAMs becomes below and items remains glitched.

40 26 CF 21 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF

This is because if you get new items, the nearest 0xFF is replaced by that items.
Item 0xCF (7 BLATs) has no icons. So there are only three icons and the new chocolate cannot be selected because the cursor is not glitched anymore.

If you want to clean up the item inventory and cansel the glitch, first you must sell all the BLATs to return the glitched memory to 0xFF.
When the memory is not 0xFF, the glitched item is displayed as BLAT. The memory is 0xFF, then displayed as a blank.
Then you can recover the non-glithched item inventory if you buy something or restart the game.

Application
You can get the same kinds of items duplicatedly if you do like this.
Suppose your inventory is like this: magic rope, flammie drum,candy, herb, chocolate, cup of wishes. Set the cursor to the last item.

26 27 20 24 21 (22) FF FF FF FF FF FF

then sell needless items (not more than half of the kinds), like candy, herb chocolate. Then...

26 27 22 FF (FF) FF FF FF FF FF FF FF

There are three icons but you can select only newer three items (whether 22 FF FF).
If you sell each 0xFFs (blanks), you have 2 duplicated 7 BLATs.

26 27 22 CF CF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF (first two items cannot be selected)

If you have many many faerie walnuts, you must buy 4 walnuts.

26 27 22 CF CF 83 FF FF FF FF FF FF (first one and last one items cannot be selected)

0x83 means 4 faerie walnuts. Then sell all the later BLATS to blank.

26 27 22 CF FF 83 FF FF FF FF FF FF (first one and last one items cannot be selected)

In this situation, newly gained item in stored in the first 0xFF. And you can buy new 4 faerie walnuts. Then...

26 27 22 CF 83 83 FF FF FF FF FF FF (last one item cannot be selected)

Again sell all the BLATs and buy new 4 faerie walnuts.

26 27 22 83 83 83 FF FF FF FF FF FF (all the items can be selected)

No more glitched! You can duplicate items like this.
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-06-19 06:00:07 am
INTJ
First of, thanks for the load of information Smiley

Quote:
The XP glitch is calculated like that:

[The XP of the killed player] % 65536

So you have to check if your party has enough XP for this glitch, if you have too much XP you will have 0, so you won't get so many XP, that's why I killed Randi.


I assume the "%" is basically "modulo"? Also, is that total exp or current exp to the next level?

It is going to be a two controller run. I'll also check whether in some parts 3 controllers could be useful (e.g. where you have to navigate past many monsters or turns on which NPCs usually get stuck). Most likely it is going to be using 1/2/3 controllers for each 'room' separate.

Speaking of "is going to be"... I'd like to say it again - I do not promise to make a complete run. It's mainly going to be casual. Maybe I'll be good enough in the future to make an actual run or even attend a marathon (would love to ^^), but no promises... Sadly i'm not exactly ambitious when it comes down to practicing, I'm more the theory-type Wink


As for the two glitched attacks - That's another big question mark. I see difficulties finding room to level 2 weapons for 1 character already. No idea whether actually leveling 2 characters weapons would be worth the time in the end, since the time could only be re-gained in boss battles. Also, don't you need 3 controllers for 2 glitched attacks at the same time? Can't check that right now, but I'm currently thinking, that you have to switch out the weapons from a separate character?

I thought about the boomerang. No, I don't think I could double hit consistently, but the question would be: What do I lose in trying? Which risk would I take? If it fails it would simply hit once like a regular charge-glitch, right? In any case it would've to pay off time for leveling the boomerang since it's a relatively late weapon.
Also, Boomerang is ranged, and that could come in really handy at some points.

Random thought: Does the boss' hitbox simply move out of bounds when they are not supposed to be attackable by normal attacks? Or is it simply flagged "can't hit" or something like that?

I'd say, I most likely will have to go for a mix in magic and charge-glitch anyway. I'd never be able to reliably hit the Vampires or the bird-things I guess (Although I thought the same for the wall, yet you pretty much crushed the second wall with a charge-glitch). In the end, "saving" some Walnuts would probably only save little time anyways, so I have no idea (yet).


Nice explanation of the item stuff - thanks... I think I read it somewhere before already. But I'll happily read it again... Maybe I'll understand it this time ^^;
Edit: I think I actually understood... Now another question rose for me: Is it simply faster to re-buy new Feary Walnuts than perform this glitch (given you hae the option to)? I assume "yes".
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
Edit history:
Musashi: 2012-06-19 08:27:43 am
But time flows like a river...
Yes this is a modulo, and it's the total XP of the character.

Don't worry about "casual run", as I said before, I posted in this thread a long time ago with the news tricks / glitches, and I said too I don't know if I'm going to do a submitable run, this game is really difficult, I made it on emulator, but this is really different than a live run, and it takes really long time.

Well well... for the XP parts, honestly I don't know, you don't need two glitched attacks until Boreal Face in the Frozen Forest, or maybe I may be wrong... I think if you use the Boomerang, you can one shot Spring Break at UpperLand (he only has 720 HP), cause another advantage of the Boomerang, you can hit the bosses who can't be by a ranged weapons. Tongue
I think you may be able to have level 2 weapons before UpperLand, the sword will be level 2 juste before Spiky, then he will give you an Orb for the Boomerang (your Boomerang is lvl 1 at this point), then you forge it when you're going to beat Gigas, and I think here you can leveling, there a lot of gobelin (1x2) + easy monsters, like the bats and the slimes.

Now Honestly I can't really help, I've neved tried the PureLand skip, two glitched attacks at the same time, so I don't know which bosses can be skipped with the magic, try to check the TAS, then try on emulator by yourself with save states. ^^

About the glitched attack, you CANNOT do it with 3 controllers, because you need one free slot for the NPC, the 3-controllers glitch is only working by switching the weapons.

For the "hitbox" seriously... I don't know, sometimes I have a good position, all seems good, and my attack just doesn't hit, 5 seconds later the boss is at the same position, and bang, one shot.
I don't know how it is working, I think this is something about the hitbox of the glitched attack, since this is not a "real" level, something must be wrong, be sure that you don't wait that much too, or you will do a level 0 attack.
I know spaming Slow Down can fuck an attack (cause of the animation of the spell), but sometimes it's just luck related. :/
Don't worry, it won't appear a lot.

The thing of the mix magic/attack, I don't know if in the end, you will lose time or not, well, if you skip pureland then you have to list the bosses which can be killed by glitch or magic !

Mantis: Weapon
Tropicallo: Weapon
Spiky: Glitched
Tontpole: Glitched
Fire Gigas: Ok, here you need magic, but you don't need to level, so, easy.
Chamber's Wall: Again you need the magic, but with the items glitch you don'nt need to level, easy too.
Kilroy: Glitched
Jabberwocky: Glitched
Spring Beak: You have two choice, try to beat him with a glitched attack and risk to miss him (he's moving, flying... it's shit) or you kill him with the Gnome, best solution, you don't need to level, and it take 40 seconds to kill him with magic.
Great Viper: Okay, this boss can be a pain, I don't know about the glitched attack, never tried, and if you take a hit, you're dead, or if you're lucky you're minimized... the magic is the best, with walnuts it will be ok, no need to level up.
Mech Rider#1: Glitched + 1 Earth Slide, if you're lucky you can one shot him.
Boreal Face: Glitched
Frost Gigas: I think it's impossible to glitch him, he will cast spell until you can reach your weapon at level 2, so you must use fire magic, but no need to level again, easy.
Minotaur: Ok his hitbox is weird, but he has only 1200 HP, you can try a double attack or use magic, no need to level again.
Doom’s Wall: Glitched
Vampire: Hehe... the famous Vampire! You can try the glitched attack with the boomerang, but he has 2550 HP, I think this is the first boss in the entire run who can beat you, you earth slide should be lvl 1, or maybe level 2, so you can try one or two boomerang glitched attack, then finish him with the Earth Slide, I don't know.
Metal Mantis: You can glitch him, just be sure that you hit him when he is not attacking or using guard, well it's the same boss as the first boss in the game, he has only 1220 HP, you can make one hit with the sword and Earth Slide, or try two attacks.
Mech Rider#2: I used Undine because I needed it for PureLand, but you can rape him with Earth Slide, and you also can try the Glitched attacks, I have beat Mech Rider#1 and #3 with the Glitched attack, I didn't here for Undine, I think you can use the same strategie as Mech Rider#1, one glitched then use Earth Slide, he has only 1258 HP.
Lime Slime: Glitched
Blue Spike: Glitched, he is the same as Spiky, use the Boomerang or magic when he's upper.
Gorgon Bull: You can glitch him, same as minotaur, with walnuts you can rape him with the magic without leveling.
Aegagropilon: Here is the boss who can kill your entire run, I've used Shadow Magic for the Mana Fortress, his hitbox is completly fucked up for the glitched attack, you can try honestly, I didn't really test, the problem is, if he cast wall and you can't hit him with glitched attacks, you're dead, I think the best is wasting time by using shadow magic + earth slide, this is just a safe way, don't take any risks!
Snap Dragon: Glitched, same as Lezardo, I use fire magic here for PureLand.
Hexas: Glitched
Mech Rider#3: Glitched
Buffy: Same as Vampire... Glitched attacks are risky, Earth Slide is good here with the 16 walnuts glitch, and you should have 16 walnuts, cause you skip PureLand, don't take any risk, and beat him with Earth Slide, should take time... but at least you will be alive
Dread Slime: I think the glitched attacks is ok with two attacks at the same time, if not, beat him with shadow magic, you have walnuts, and you leveled it a bit during the Aegagropilon fight
Dark Lich: a ton of HP (6666), I used glitch + Earth Slide, your Earth Slide should be lvl 3 or 4 (maybe 5 with the two Vampires),  and if you use glitch + Earth Slide, you avoid that he will run away and just shows his hands.
Mana Beast: You can try only glitched attack, but by using slow down you avoid that he will fly away, the best is the strategie I used I guess.

Ok so, you see, you don't need to level your magic with the walnuts glitch, I think you can try in that way. Tongue

For the Walnuts Glitch, you have to re-sell all your items (or use them) to re-make the 4 walnuts glitch to have 8, and yeah it's a waste of time, then it can fuck the end of the game when you have to make the glitch for 16, 4 is OK after, because as listed below, you don't need a lot of magic, and you won't really use them all, there is a lot of village after the middle of the game. Cheesy

I hope I helped you and I didn't write it all for nothing haha. Grin
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-06-19 03:14:21 pm
INTJ
Well, you certainly didn't write it for nothing since I like reading such stuff, but that's probably not what you expected Wink

The basic problem I see with leveling 2 (maybe 2x2 + 2x1... 2 level ones and 2 level twos) weapons is, that I have to stop and actually kill monsters, since simply hitting them won't give me weapon exp (right?). The further I advance, the longer it takes to kill them --> resulting in a larger time I have to gain on bosses to make it worthwhile. As in, in case I use up 5 minutes to level the weapons, I'd have to make up these 5 minutes and more in the boss battles alone - reliably (because nowhere else that glitch saves time).

Quote:
About the glitched attack, you CANNOT do it with 3 controllers, because you need one free slot for the NPC, the 3-controllers glitch is only working by switching the weapons.


I don't really understand this statement - for a controlled charge-glitch (meaning, I control the character with the 'overcharge') I simply switch out weapons from another character while he has a higher level charged than he will get for the charge... God, I'm horrible at explaining. I try that one again:
3 characters, all human controlled
1) Boy: Has Sword level 2 and spear level 1, charges sword to level 2
1) Girl: Has Claw level 2 and Sword level 1, charges claw to level 2
2) Sprite: Currently has the spear equipped, switches weapons with Boy - Boy starts overcharging with the Spear
3) Sprite: Now has the sword equipped, switches weapons with the Girl - Girl starts overcharging with the Sword

^ Works, just tried it oô.. Or what did you mean? ^^;

Concerning the level differences - that's why I had the idea with getting 8 cups of wishes while doing the Walnuts glitch. I think it could be reasonable to do that, considering that it also saves time when I can simply pass by monsters - easier - without getting hit due to the absurdly high avoid level at the point (~up to the mana fortress).

I'm "soon" (well, when I find the time/motivation to) going to make a testrun. My plan would be to comparing using Undine almost exclusively (excluding the weakness-bosses) + a lot more overcharges/double overcharge to using your general strategies and only the simple NPC charge.

And.. Concerning the actual category my run would be in - I have no clue what that would be... The easiest thing to compare it to would be like Zelda 2 up + A run or something like that. Considering it a coop run wouldn't be off the charts though, since I am actually going to use multiple controllers as much as possible, but obviously without the advantage of actually having a coop-partner (which I guess would result in optimized movement due to having 2 individuals).
I can handle 2 controllers at the same time reasonably well, but as soon as I'd get up to the 3rd one, I'd have major trouble if I would have to sprint with all of them at the same time ^^... Walking works fine.

But... I'll have to see how it's going to work in the actual game. Only did some "dry practice" up to now (no clue whether that word combination exists in english ^^). Still waiting for the NTSC SNES to arrive, the game is already here... Also, I ordered SNES -> USB adapters to maybe practice on emulators (in case these things are usable)

In the end, I'd love to make a run where I control 2-3 characters optimally (=as good as 2 people would do). If nothing else, it could make a nice marathon run Tongue
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
But time flows like a river...
You gain 50% of the total XP if you hit an enemy, and 100% if you give the final hit.
If you have a perfect timing and you kill an enemy in the same time with two characters, you will gain 100% for both of them, but I think this is frame-related, so not really possible. Tongue

For the glitched attacks, I was talking about my weapon glitch, which require a NPC, you are talking about the weapon glitch by switching the weapons, so it's ok. Tongue

About the level part, try in your test run just killing 4 times your party for the XP, like I do in my game, and see if it's possible to beat the game, then yeah considere doing a 8 wishes of cup glitch if that's impossible.

Well for the category, a 2 controllers run has to be different than a 1 controller, since you can skip pureland and you can use more glitch, but since this run is really difficult, you should think about a segmented run, this can be easier, specially the bosses which require a ton of luck. Tongue

Anyway good luck for your progress, the first trys will be hard, but keep going!
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-06-20 05:39:06 am
INTJ
Quote from Musashi:
You gain 50% of the total XP if you hit an enemy, and 100% if you give the final hit.
If you have a perfect timing and you kill an enemy in the same time with two characters, you will gain 100% for both of them, but I think this is frame-related, so not really possible. Tongue


I wouldn't count that out - as far as I remember there is a 4 (or 5?) frame cycle in which attacks get registered. As in: The attacks only "hit" when it's on the first frame out of the cycle, which would create a ~3 frame opening for me to hit two buttons simultanously.... Although hitting the buttons at the same time isn't an issue, I guess hitting with the different weapons might be.. I'll simply test it ^^

Quote:
About the level part, try in your test run just killing 4 times your party for the XP, like I do in my game, and see if it's possible to beat the game, then yeah considere doing a 8 wishes of cup glitch if that's impossible.


I've started making a spreadsheet with some minor calculations for spell damage. I'll do the same for the "avoid"/"block" stuff and check how much a level difference this will actually make. If it's something like 90% avoid instead of 50% for going the extra mile up to the mana fortress, then it would be wortwhile.

Also... I'll have to compare the time between leaving the dungeon to simply buy 4 more cups to performing the glitch - thinking about it, it's not given that glitching multiple cups would be faster ^^

Quote:
Well for the category, a 2 controllers run has to be different than a 1 controller, since you can skip pureland and you can use more glitch, but since this run is really difficult, you should think about a segmented run, this can be easier, specially the bosses which require a ton of luck. Tongue


I'll see about segmenting or not.. I simply wonder whether I can efficiently use the screen-transition-switch of characters. (I mean, when going through a doof for example, the other player that didn't go through the door himself can usually move earlier)
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-06-22 03:26:57 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-06-22 07:55:50 am
INTJ
Short questions:

- How much faster is running over walking?
In many cases while watching your run I simply wondered, whether walking would be faster since you have more control over dodging enemies and especially in cases, where you switch characters to run again. I mean, let's take the path to the Shadow Clones - there you switch characters to run rather frequently. Wouldn't "walking" be generally faster, or is this simply bad luck with monster placement (or actually faster anyway)?

- Also, is my assumption correct, that walking up+right goes at the same speed upwards like simply going up?

- Further: I guess you use Shade to get him to the required level for cancelling Wall, right? What's the level requirement to cancel the Walls from

- You use Gnomes Slow Spell when you use the Charge glitch often. Is there an advantage of using Slow instead of a damage spell besides the MP cost?

- In the Dwarf village at the "theater" where you pay for watching the Rabit and the Sprite doing stuff on stage - is it actually faster going down and right instead of directly to the right?
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
Edit history:
Musashi: 2012-06-23 06:06:46 pm
Musashi: 2012-06-23 04:53:37 pm
But time flows like a river...
Quote:
- How much faster is running over walking?
In many cases while watching your run I simply wondered, whether walking would be faster since you have more control over dodging enemies and especially in cases, where you switch characters to run again. I mean, let's take the path to the Shadow Clones - there you switch characters to run rather frequently. Wouldn't "walking" be generally faster, or is this simply bad luck with monster placement (or actually faster anyway)?

Both, the monsters sucks... and I have to switch with the girl for the whip one time, and dwarf for the axe, and sometimes I switch with the boy because he can dodge the monsters, the girl and the dwarf can be killed in one hit. :/
And btw this part and the Mana Fortress are the worst in my run, I'm a bit confused when I'm in it, I'm scared to take the wrong way or so, I have to practice more this place and the Mana Fortress if I have to do a real run. Tongue
Well running is better for long distance of course, or if you can switch character fast, like when I go to Haunted Forest, Empire town & co.
When there are monsters, the random spawn can fuck you. Sad

Quote:
- Also, is my assumption correct, that walking up+right goes at the same speed upwards like simply going up?

Yeah the speed is the same.

Quote:
- Further: I guess you use Shade to get him to the required level for cancelling Wall, right? What's the level requirement to cancel the Walls from

I'm using Shade during Mech Rider for the wall yeah, and too because I can level it a bit for fight against Dread Slime.
I heard you need lvl 4 for the wall but I think it's wrong, if the Mana Beast cast Wall, just use dispell magic 2x, then slow down, and the wall is gone.
The best strategy is using dispell magic after each hit you give, because he seems casting a spell after each hit, but in my run I have the good timing with slow down so it's ok, but I failed the first hit and he used wall.

Quote:
- You use Gnomes Slow Spell when you use the Charge glitch often. Is there an advantage of using Slow instead of a damage spell besides the MP cost?

- Low MP cost (1), so when you're low level it's the best as you said
- Short animation
- Leveling for further bosses (Mana Fortress, PureLand)


Quote:
- In the Dwarf village at the "theater" where you pay for watching the Rabit and the Sprite doing stuff on stage - is it actually faster going down and right instead of directly to the right?

Yeah my way is the fastest way, I made a video long time ago about it to see, I've uploaded it on youtube, so you can see actually.

Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-06-25 03:44:47 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-06-25 03:41:17 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-06-25 03:31:08 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-06-25 03:30:16 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-06-25 12:57:47 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-06-25 09:19:43 am
INTJ
Do you have some exact numbers on how much faster running is than walking? As in - Nothing special, simply comparing the walking and running speed ^^

Thanks for the video... I knew I've seen (maybe even asked..) that before. Simply couldn't remember anymore how it goes. (Also, in my memotyy you stayed inside the room after the show - which isn't the case)

I'll check the TASvideos thread for the wall thingy.. I think HHS posted something about that in his huge post ^^

Edit: From HHS awesome post:
Quote:
Remedy level 8 and above level 4 against single target remove all status effects except barrel and dead. Remedy below level 4 or below level 8 against multiple targets remove Power/4 units from the time left. Dispel magic works in the same way.


Basically if I understand it correctly:
- If Shade is level 4 or higher, he will remove any buffs with Dispel Magic
- If Shade is Level 3 or lower, he will remove Power/4 units from the time left

So... Shade on level 3 or lower will not simply either remove it or not, it will remove time units from the spell. Now I'll simply have to figure out how many time units there are total (probably written in the Spell Description) and how much power I'll have when encountering the 3 Wall-Bosses.

In any case, at least I know now, that it's not (necessarily) a run-killer if Aga... The plant-thingy gets to cast Wall. Also, I probably don't have to level Shade as much. Although level 2-3 is probably good anyway, since the difference in lower levels is massive regarding damage and the slime boss is weak to Shade.. I'll simply calculate, at which point the non-weak-element would outshine the other.

Edit 2: I just calculated out the Exp I get from the bosses alone to figure out how much I have to look out for the leveling glitch... Did you plan that out? It looks like it ^^... In any case I have to let the Girl be basically dead for around 7k Experience, then kill the Boy once and... Well, basically do what you do. I'm once again amazed how well optimized your testrun is in theory Smiley

Edit 3: I summed up the total exp you gain from "small monsters" and the bosses in your run

In total total this makes for the following numbers just before the glitch can be performed in the Shadow Temple:
Boy: 25947
Girl: 36507
Sprite: 37050

After killing the Girl once, the boy has a total of 62454 Exp, which is a leeway of 3082 Exp.. Nice Smiley

Hm... Also, question:
- Is Tanpole's Exp calculated instead of the Biting Lizards? Or both? I only calculated 50 for Tanpole now.. If it was for both, it would result in a leeway of 1402, enough in any case ^^

Although, the Leeway basically has to be cut in half, since numbers get doubled after the first glitch exp gain. So it's 701 at max. I tried thinking about getting it closer by killing the boy at other bosses, but it's probably not worth the risk of going too high on one hand, and the bosses where you let the boy die seem reasonably fair to go for it.

Also I calculated the exp loss I'd receive from skipping Pure Lands. It's a total of 169509 - which equals in performing the glitch 2.7 more times. So, in case it would be too hard going through the mana fortress with that level, going for 4 more Cup of Wishes would be reasonable... Thinking about it, I could also try to figure out a number, where I can kill off the Girl or Sprite instead of the Boy, so he isn't too underleveled either.. Balancing..

Btw... I doubt it, but if anyone wants to play around with the Spreadsheet I made, I can upload it. It's rather basic though.

And.. Another Question: Do you use any equipment for Stats boost?

Edit 4: Please point out any mistakes I could've made.. I rarely get everything right the first try ^^... But I love theorycrafting, doesn't mean I'm good at it Tongue
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
INTJ
seems like I have to create a new post to add an attachment. Here's the "Spreadsheet" if anyone is interested... Although it's probably not much of a Spreadsheet, merely some small calculations..

Also, I added the raw data which HHS provided to me (Thanks a bunch ^^)
Attachments:
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
Edit history:
Musashi: 2012-06-25 05:08:14 pm
But time flows like a river...
Quote:
Do you have some exact numbers on how much faster running is than walking? As in - Nothing special, simply comparing the walking and running speed ^^

No I don't, try to check the TAS videos thread, I think someone already mentioned it I guess.

Quote:
Basically if I understand it correctly:
- If Shade is level 4 or higher, he will remove any buffs with Dispel Magic
- If Shade is Level 3 or lower, he will remove Power/4 units from the time left

So... Shade on level 3 or lower will not simply either remove it or not, it will remove time units from the spell. Now I'll simply have to figure out how many time units there are total (probably written in the Spell Description) and how much power I'll have when encountering the 3 Wall-Bosses.

In any case, at least I know now, that it's not (necessarily) a run-killer if Aga... The plant-thingy gets to cast Wall. Also, I probably don't have to level Shade as much. Although level 2-3 is probably good anyway, since the difference in lower levels is massive regarding damage and the slime boss is weak to Shade.. I'll simply calculate, at which point the non-weak-element would outshine the other.

Okay so I was right about lvl 4. Tongue
Well, I've just used two dispell magic at the same time I think during my run, and all went fine, I still think against Aegagropilon the magic is the best thing, but if you don't need Shade leveling, then you can use Earth Slide instead of Shadow. (Or Glitch him :D)

Quote:
Edit 2: I just calculated out the Exp I get from the bosses alone to figure out how much I have to look out for the leveling glitch... Did you plan that out? It looks like it ^^... In any case I have to let the Girl be basically dead for around 7k Experience, then kill the Boy once and... Well, basically do what you do. I'm once again amazed how well optimized your testrun is in theory Smiley

Edit 3: I summed up the total exp you gain from "small monsters" and the bosses in your run

In total total this makes for the following numbers just before the glitch can be performed in the Shadow Temple:
Boy: 25947
Girl: 36507
Sprite: 37050

After killing the Girl once, the boy has a total of 62454 Exp, which is a leeway of 3082 Exp..

To avoid misunderstandings, I didn't find by myself all theses tricks. ^^
Ofc I knew about the XP glitch, and tried myself, but the Horubi's speedrun (he is a famous japanese Speed Runner, he made the awesome Super Metroid run here) helped me a lot, I wasn't thinking about killing the Boy during the castle, then I've seen his speedrun, and Touch-Me gave me the formule of the XP glitch.
But in his run, he wasn't sure about the XP, you can see if you check his run, he's opening the menu to check the XP of the girl, so I tried by myself to optimize the kills without wasting time by checking if I can do the glitch or not, and it went perfectly.
I don't have to kill any monsters except for leveling my sword at the beginning, and there is no way to get 3k+ XP. Tongue

Quote:
Hm... Also, question:
- Is Tanpole's Exp calculated instead of the Biting Lizards? Or both? I only calculated 50 for Tanpole now.. If it was for both, it would result in a leeway of 1402, enough in any case ^^

Yeah, if you one shot him, you just get the XP from Tonpole.

Quote:
Also I calculated the exp loss I'd receive from skipping Pure Lands. It's a total of 169509 - which equals in performing the glitch 2.7 more times. So, in case it would be too hard going through the mana fortress with that level, going for 4 more Cup of Wishes would be reasonable... Thinking about it, I could also try to figure out a number, where I can kill off the Girl or Sprite instead of the Boy, so he isn't too underleveled either.. Balancing..

Baaaah, for more leveling, there is a town near to dark palace, you can go here and buy more cup of wishes, then you just do the glitch 3 more times. Cheesy

Quote:
And.. Another Question: Do you use any equipment for Stats boost?

I buy power wrist at the beginning (you gain 1 hit against Tropicallo) and more damage when I'm leveling the sword.
Also I buy a Circlet for Popoie (int +5) and keep a Lazuri Ring for him (int +5).
And I upgrade my gears three times at Kakkara, Golden City and Neko before Mana Fortress.
Yagamoth:
registered on 2012-01-11 10:31:31 am.
 
Gender: male
Location: Switzerland
INTJ
Thanks again for the answers Smiley

Do you happen to have the Nicovideo-link at hand? If not I'll search it when I get home from work ^^
Musashi:
registered on 2011-07-10 04:52:43 am.
 
Gender: male
Edit history:
Musashi: 2012-06-26 05:18:20 am
But time flows like a river...
Yeah got it, here it is:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/search/%E8%81%96%E5%89%A3%E4%BC%9D%E8%AA%AC2%20%E3%83%90%E3%82%B0%E5%88%A9%E7%94%A8RTA

In his speedrun, he uses 4 herbs, then suddently he has 8 herbs... I don't know how he managed to do it, this is glitch related I guess, I've watched the entire run but I still don't understand how he did that glitch. Cheesy
And in the end he has 5 or 6 candy... still some strange things in the run, but maybe it's JP version related.
Oh, if you are wondering why he is opening the menu when he kills a boss, Touch Me told me this is because sometimes the JP version can freeze after a boss is defeated with the glitch or so, so he did that to avoid this bug.

You'll see his run is almost identical to mine, of course I was inspired by his tricks. Tongue