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Yagamoth: 2012-06-28 01:42:51 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-06-28 01:25:19 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-06-28 07:10:25 am
Yagamoth: 2012-06-28 07:09:48 am
Yagamoth: 2012-06-28 07:09:32 am
INTJ
Thanks for the link

I wonder whether the freeze in the japanese version equals the not-whiteout happenings in the us version ^^

I now calculated a bit more stuff and got an interesting results regarding Spells. I'm not sure if I made it correctly (again, I'm prone to make mistakes when calculating :/), but what I've found is as follows:

- You need to know, that if an enemy is weak to a certain element he does not simply take double damage. The correct thing to say is, that the "Force" of the spell gets doubled
- I made a small table of, which level of "effective" spell roughly equals "normal" spells
Code:
Normal - Effective
2      - 0
4      - 1
6      - 2
8      - 3

- Now comes the interesting part: Using the table values, the effective spells 'usually' do on average around 15% more damage (that's as "near" as it gets - any level higher/lower results in one or the other element dominating)
- However, there is a random chance (of about ~20%, which gets smaller the higher level you get) that another calculation comes in place for the Force, where there is a HUGE difference between the two spells
- The "normal" spell hits for a much higher (~depending on enemy Magid Def) damage number, roughly 50%-100% higher

In short: "Effective" Spells are usually stronger, however there is a 20% chance, that the "normal" spell would do way more damage.

I'm horrible at explaining.. But I hope you understand what I mean. Using the same Element over and over again can actually outpace the low level "effective" elements. At least the high level "normal" element is way more consistent in dealing damage, which could be beneficial in a SS run (as in: You have a much smaller range of amount of spells you have to cast).

Edit: Just read HHS' post again about the spells... I guess leveling a spell past Level 7 is not really worthwhile, since it's still calculated as being level 7, and instead you have the CHANCE to cast the level 8 spell (with the fancy graphics which may be slower anyway)

Edit2: The main "problem" I've realized by now is, that almost everything in this game is calculateable... I'm thinking about creating a "simulator"... Anyone got a simple language/tool to create such a thing? I know a fair bit of PHP, but that would be a bit too 'awkward' to make quick simulations
The freezing glitch does exist, I've experienced it myself. I always thought it was similar to Star Ocean 2's freezing glitch, where if you're too overzealous pushing buttons at the end of battles in certain area, you get the black screen of death because the console can't access information fast enough on the disc. Just speculation, though.

If you'd like an NTSC-J cartridge for testing, I have one I'd donate to the cause, provided 1) shipping to you wouldn't be prohibitively expensive (are you in the US?), and 2) I'd get it back eventually.
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-06-29 02:54:39 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-06-29 02:53:49 pm
INTJ
Oh well, I never questioned the existence of the freeze, I simply wondered whether the result of the glitch is the aequivalent of the missing white-out in the US Versiont. You can see what I mean int he TAS:
around 35:10

I live in Switzerland and I wouldn't even have a possibility to play that game on an actual cartridge Wink
Edit history:
Musashi: 2012-06-30 09:52:52 am
But time flows like a river...
I have understand what you said about the magic level, but I doubt this is benefical in a SS run.

There is (for me) some problems:

- If I use only one spell, and I think the most used is the Gnome, using Slow Down for the boss, and only Gnome, then I'm sure I will reach lvl 8 before the end of the game, because Slow Down is used a lot, and then used for the damage.
So finally maybe I'll lose time because of the animation.
- This is only 20%... so for a SS, this is really luck based, glitched attack, now this luck based 20% damage, this is too much I think for a SS run lol.

And tbh, Undine is used 4 times, Sylphide 4 times, Athanor 4 times, Shade 2 times and the rest is glitched or Gnome, so I don't think you can win a ton of time, I really think this is a bad choice and you will simply lose time.

Now for a segmented... why not, but really with a tons of resets.
INTJ
I'll try to re-formulate, my previous post was horrible ^^;

My original idea was to use only one Element and possibly make it so strong/leveled up, that it would outpace other elements which would only be used once or twice in the complete run. The "Consistency" would be on the beneficial side for the non-effective spells, as in: You are currently using the less-consistent spell-choice (but possibly faster with some luck) ^^

For example - Undine is strong against a total of 3 bosses (which one did I miss? you say 4 oô)
- Fire Gigas
- Axe Beak
- Red Dragon

- You use her against the Fire Gigas - no question (with multiple controllers it may be worth thinking about using a controlled glitch attack
- Now, if you simply look at the "effective" bosses, you would see, that Axe Beak and Red Dragon are extremely far into the run
- By that time, Gnome is guaranteed to be at a high level and Undine under-used
- That's why I try to "simulate" out which approach would be faster
--> Using Undine in a few more places to get her on a higher level (How much time is lost because you use Undine? How much time is gained because you use the correct element)
vs
--> Simply using Gnome (What's the time gained from an earlier, stronger Gnome? What's possibly the time lost due to not using the correct element?)
- Obviously there is more to consider, such as: Undine having lower cost for the damage spell, which is probably a big advantage early
- In the end, the case, that level 7 is about the same as level 8 magic, has to be considered for the calculation, but "avoiding" going for a high level would bewrong too ^^

Also, if we'd use Gnome, the special spell animation wouldn't be much longer since it simply draws a face on the stone Tongue
Is PJ
What are the benefits to using magic to kill bosses vs. using the weapon charge glitch?  I am not entirely familiar with how speed running SoM works, but I thought the plan was to just charge glitch all the bosses away.

Also, I'm assuming you'd still chain-cast all the magic, right?  In that case, the Earth Slide level 8 animation would still be bad because you can't chain cast during it (even though the animation itself is just as fast).

Obviously you both have more experience than me so I trust your route, but I was just wondering about those two things.  ^_^
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-07-01 04:06:31 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-07-01 04:05:45 pm
INTJ
Basically, the Charge glitch is reliant on actually being able to hit the boss with the weapon - there are a number of bosses, where this is rather hard to pull off consistently (Spring Beak or Vampire for example) without TAS skills. Further, the glitch is not guaranteed to do the required damage as it's relatively random (But, thinking abou it, always using the same timing should result in more or less the same numbers..)

For the animation-stuff: Yes, that's true for the most part - the animation only comes into play when you actually let the damage number get calculated (as in: The last cast). But if you can choose, a shorter animation shouldn't hurt

Although, I have to admit, I did not even try beating any of the bosses yet... I'm a bit too focused on theory instead of testing I guess. I should make a testrun and see, whether I can beat the bosses consistently with charge glitch only. Although I'm fairly sure there is a reason, why Musashi and the Japanese dude use magic on many bosses - can't tell exactly though, I'll have to try it out myself ^^
- thanks for the question, PJ - I did not even consider that ^^;
Quote from Yagamoth:
Oh well, I never questioned the existence of the freeze, I simply wondered whether the result of the glitch is the aequivalent of the missing white-out in the US Versiont. You can see what I mean int he TAS:
around 35:10

I live in Switzerland and I wouldn't even have a possibility to play that game on an actual cartridge Wink


It was the thought that counted. Smiley Good luck with your run!
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-07-03 04:36:18 am
Yagamoth: 2012-07-02 10:54:55 am
Yagamoth: 2012-07-02 10:36:49 am
INTJ
Thanks, although it's still a long way to go... But at least I have now the SNES Controller USB Adapter ^^

What always bothered me, that in the beginning of Musashis route, he item glitch is used solely to get more gold.. Then I remembered about my idea, of getting 8 Cups of Wishes instead of 4 for the wall-leveling, where I thought the time spent to perform 'another' item glitch could be too long. Well, there I have it more or less for free. All it costs getting 8 cups there is:
- Leaving the Sell-Menu before selling 8 BLATS
- Buy 4 more Cups
- Sell the last Blat
and then proceed to buy everything as in the normal route (I'll simply have to care to use the correct Cup for the normal revives ^^). So.. In case I'd decide on getting more levels there, this would probably be the way to go.

In case I can make all/most boss battles consistent enough (and faster) with the charge glitch, I can probably also skip getting multiple walnuts. But this may also mean, that I may have to sell more than 8 BLATS in the beginning to get enough money for the whole run.

Keep in mind, that I have the possibility of the "controlled" charge glitch, which may solve some problems you and the Japanese runner faced when planning out whether to for magic or not. Also, I'm not entirely limited to "ignore" magic if I go for more charge glitches ^^

I love theory... I keep telling: "Start running more already!", but then I encounter another area and get an idea and have to think about it o..o..

Edit: Also, I'm thinking about how to get 2 weapons leveled up... And most of all, which ones. In theory, I could kill a few more monsters in the beginning and switch to the spear on the way to the Dwarven village, to get it up a bit already. But, depending on how reasonable it is to 'hope' for a double-hit from the boomerang I might go for that route instead... I'll check the TAS on how he levels up the weapons to get some ideas ôo..

Edit 2: I also played around a bit with Whip + Pole + Flammie and I noticed, that when you call Flammie while starting the Pole-jump-attack (standing in the correct position), the "event" also carries over to when you land next. Meaning, I start rope-jumping towards the left/right as soon as I land somewhere.
I didn't find any practical uses though... But while playing around I managed to make the bridge appear in building in the sunken continent. Didn't have any benefits though, since the character entering is stuck in the dialog..
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-07-06 06:31:50 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-07-05 03:49:26 am
Yagamoth: 2012-07-05 03:49:00 am
Yagamoth: 2012-07-05 03:45:46 am
INTJ
Found an interesting bug with Barrel and the "Slide-Tunnels" (Such as the entrance to the Dwarf Village). If you equip a barrel you walk slower. The Slide-Tunnels seem to be using the walkspeed to determine how far it actually sends you. As a result, you slide only about 2/3 of the way and get stuck in the wall. (Although, the 'line' between the Entrance and Exite is walkable)

I highly doubt it's of any use though, since in SoM every walkable-tile is defined as such instead of the opposite like in many other games, where you can walk freely once you get oob. Also, I haven't found any Slide-Tunnels where going too far/not as far would be beneficial.

Fun fact: The Slide-Tunnel in the Shadow Temple is about exactly 1/3 of the length of the complete area. If you use the bug, where you walk into the Slide-Tunnel with 3 characters at the same frame, it sends you exactly once around the area, back to where you started sliding (about 2-3 Pixels off) (they Wrap around btw ^^).

Thinking further: Maybe there is a "cutscene" which uses walking speed? (I highly doubt this.. Remembering the Sunken Temple Cutscene, where you meet the 3 freaks just before fighting the green Agrapathingy, it sends you from point A to point B within a set amount of time, ignoring any collision (I managed to make the Bridge disappear there - the Characters simply walked over the gap anyway))

SoM is really solid for the most part o..o..

Edit: The cutscenes do indeed use Walking speed - but I haven't found a single one, where it would've had a beneficial effect to not walk as far. Even the best guess on the Dopplegangers didn't work out ^^... I'll try to play around a bit more with taking events to other places
Hello.  I'm having trouble with the glitch to skip the Ancient City.  As far as I can tell, the execution is fairly straight-forward, but after a couple of hours of trying, I was never able to get the game to load from the corrupted save.  I was trying the method in the TAS (i.e. making the first save just before fighting Aegagropilon, and the second after raising the continent), but it just wouldn't work at all.  Is there any restrictions/limitations on the trick that I may have missed?
But time flows like a river...
There no restriction about the save location or which slot is used, BUT, your execution is wrong.
When you enter in the ancient city, do the reset (start+select+L+R), but hold the buttons for 2 seconds,  don't just press them, or your game save will crash.
Edit history:
doicm: 2012-09-11 03:42:19 pm
doicm: 2012-09-11 03:41:55 pm
Decided (for now) that I wanted to try to run this game next. In my practice file, I'm up to Northtown having just completed the ruins. My route doesn't vary much (if at all) from Musashi's because I'm trying to get a feel for the different glitches and such.

I plan on reading this thread at some point, but it seems so overwhelming with all the information and research that has been put into this game. From what I understand, there are four main glitches in the game (namely: save data glitch, weapon charge glitch, infinite money glitch, and experience glitch).

I'm playing this on Wii VC, and I figure that the game emulates well enough to replicate these glitches. I'm just hoping that the "corrupt save data file to delete everything" doesn't include stuff on the Wii...highly doubt it, but if anyone can notify me beforehand to save me the trouble, that'd be very much appreciated.

EDIT: Universal speed running question ---- What's the current world record?
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-09-12 04:24:39 am
INTJ
Nice, I hope you are better than me in keep going ^^;

Technically, the SDA record is 5:15:00

But both Musashis and the Nicovideo run are SS and much faster. If you plan on skipping Pure Lands, you certainly should be way below 3 hours.  Since I don't remember how good Musashis run was (His time on Youtube reads 3:18:55), shooting for 3:15:00 would be a good first goal if you don't skip Pure Lands.

For the Wii VC, if you get the NTSC version it should include all glitches.. Don't quote me on that, my memory is a bit unclear currently..

Also, there is basically a 5th glitch, which directly interacts with the money glitch: Being able to hold more than 4 items of a type.

As a baseline I suggest to simply imitate Musashis run (including the deaths, afaik they set up the experience glitch to be more efficient)
I either am horrible at reading or couldn't find info on this thread about it, but I'm extremely interested that there is a Pure Land skip glitch. I took a look at the TAS video to find out about it, and this is the info I could extract:

(Times based on time in YT video)
1:36:15 - Attack a rope-pole and call Flammie. Then the pole event is taken over until the next map. (Done in Lofty Mountains)
1:36:35 - The rope-pole event (blank) occurs and overwrites the barrier event. Thus I could enter the Mana Fortress.
1:36:50 - Go through the walls. There is no gathering point, so everyone must go through the walls. (Mana Fortress)
1:36:57 - I need to push this switch 7 times (switch flags remain unpushed). Charge the boomerang (with computer-controlled member) while pushing switch.
1:37:06 - The glitched level 1 to 9 boomerang flies as usual. So I can attack the rope-pole distantly with level 7 attack!

I don't know what the title of this glitch is, so I'm guessing it's the "attack-rope-pole-with-boomerang-to-barrier-skip glitch" which allows the player to perform the "pure land skip giltch"...? In any case, how difficult is this in execution if anyone has tried it?
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-09-12 09:56:37 am
Yagamoth: 2012-09-12 09:55:02 am
Yagamoth: 2012-09-12 09:53:23 am
INTJ
It's very easy to do on a normal console actually. The timing is very loose. The problem is however, that you are required to have 2 controllers. One character hits the rope pole, and the other character calls Flammie.

Very simple put:
- Controller 1: Attacks the pole
- Controller 2: Calls the menu and uses the Flammie Drum - before #1s attack reaches the pole

We haven't managed to perform this with a single controller.

Also, I think you basically carry over the rope-pole event which overwrites the standard-event of the Mana Fortress (which is the textbox that says, that you are there too early up there and you have to go to the Pure Lands before, no clue what exactly it says).

On a sidenote: It also works using the rope-pole with a whip. In effect, next time you land with Flammie you will perform the rope-jump (It's always to the left if I remember correctly) - and I haven't found a application for this at all.

================================

Random thought: Do you keep status ailments such as being a snowman after flying/landing with Flammie?
I wonder if SDA will accept the run if a second controller is used. I've never even considered doing that in any of my runs before, so I'm not sure of the requirement.
Fucking Weeaboo
Quote from doicm:
I wonder if SDA will accept the run if a second controller is used. I've never even considered doing that in any of my runs before, so I'm not sure of the requirement.


Yes, as it's been done before.
INTJ
Oh, that's interesting Sir VG - thanks.. I've never even thought about the acceptance oô
Edit history:
Musashi: 2012-09-12 12:52:03 pm
Musashi: 2012-09-12 12:49:51 pm
Musashi: 2012-09-12 12:49:10 pm
Musashi: 2012-09-12 12:43:39 pm
Musashi: 2012-09-12 12:43:18 pm
Musashi: 2012-09-12 11:13:01 am
Musashi: 2012-09-12 11:12:44 am
Musashi: 2012-09-12 11:11:17 am
Musashi: 2012-09-12 11:11:02 am
Musashi: 2012-09-12 11:10:23 am
Musashi: 2012-09-12 11:09:51 am
But time flows like a river...
The current WR, playing on the real console is the Hotarubi's run, mine is faster, but I dont want to set it as WR, it's not legit for me, even if the run is. Smiley
And Hoturabi is the best atm, he's really a badass speedrunner (his Super Metroid run is awesome!) so he deserve his WR, mine is just on emulator.

If you plan to skip PureLand and not doing extra lvling and then manage to beat the game, you can obviously be sub 3hours, because you skip the (very) long Mana Tree speech and of course the bosses.
3:20-3:30 is a common time if you beat the game and don't miss a lot of glitched attacks, sub 3:15 is complicated without the Pure Land skip, but still possible I think.

I don't really understand that you're scared about the corrupt save file, it will just crash your game, not your wii, you don't have to wonder about it, and honestly I did this glitch 15+ times on my snes PAL, just your two saves will be corrupt if you fail the glitch, but nothing will happen to your console or so, and you just have to overwritte your save by a new one and it's ok.

But again, that I said to Yagamoth, if you use the PureLand skip, you should use all the glitches that require two controllers, but I sill think that you won't beat the game if you skip PureLand, I'm not sure if you will be strong enough to beat the Mana Fortress (you need INT for Popoi and STR for Randi... but you can try, I don't know if Yagamoth tried).

I wish you good luck, I wanted to buy a DVD Recorder, but my pc died recently so I had to buy a new one... and a DVD Recorder with HDD is really expansive, I'm pissed off and I didn't play this game since long time, so my run is really complicated to make. Cheesy

Btw doicm if you have any specific questions about my run, Hotarubi's run, TAS, I'll help you without any problem, or at least I'll try.
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-09-12 01:07:41 pm
INTJ
Well, I actually didn't even attempt it to be honest. After my console buy on Ebay failed, that took a bit the wind out of my sails :/ (Speaking of it, I'll probably get a console relatively soon though... If all goes well q..q)

In any case, if you should find out, that you are too weak for the Mana Fortress, you could take my idea and get 8 Holy Waters while performing the Rope-Glitch (=Money Glitch) in the Dwarf Village. The you could level up a lot more when performing the exp glitch

Also, @Musashi: Which other glitches do you think are useful with two controllers? I can think about some shortcuts with some rope poles, but I don't think it would save much time if at all ^^;
But time flows like a river...
I just have in mind the weapon glitch with 2 controllers, the "rope wall glitch" is cool, but I don't know if you can use it like Touch-Me in the TAS, I've never tried it and I'm not sure if it's 2 controllers related. Tongue

Holy Water, you mean Cup of Wishes? Yeah you can do the EXP glitch, but I don't know how much XP you will gain, but well, I think this can still faster than PureLand, but I'm not sure about the magic level, but well, it's not that hard to make some test, beating the game is just 3h30. Cheesy
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-09-12 04:13:35 pm
Yagamoth: 2012-09-12 04:13:05 pm
INTJ
For the weapon Glitch with 2 controllers - In my eyes for a non-TAS it's a much more secure way to hit 'slippery' bosses such as the Gigas' or the Birds, as it's not reliant on the AI charging up the weapon and getting into a good position. By considering that, the partially lower magic level for the Mana Fortress can be avoided by power-using one element, such as Undine repeatedly (I made a spreadsheet that roughly shows, how much stronger non-effective spells have to be over effective ones - the benefit here of using a higher level normal-damage-spell over a lower level effective-damage-spell is also, that the damage is more consistent - at least according to the formula)
Edit: In theory, you could even go for a double-controlled-overcharge with 3 controllers, to have a spare one at hand if you miss one... But that would impact the route even more. Keep in mind, to set up a controlled-overcharge (=weapon glitch) you need one weapon level 1 and one weapon level 2 - which impacts the route and amount of small monsters you have to defeat in the beginning.

The ropepole-wall is actually fairly simple - If you hit a pole, you normally can't move your characters with the direction pad anymore (the attacker can't move anyway), but when you are using, say a Sword Level 1 charge attack just before you hit the pole, you will finish the attack movement. The quirk here is now, that while the pole is "activated" (=where you can't normally move) you are able to go through walls. I think most walk through walls are unreasonable to do in real time, since they take up too much time to set up and only provide a small shortcut. Others are simply impossible to do realistically, such as the one where he walks through the wall at the beginning of the Mana Fortress.

Yes, I mean Cup of Wishes oô

It's probably the best to continuously kill off the Lady, since once you set her up near maximum gain for exp, her exp value won't change. I don't think it severly hurts to leave her low level. Just keep killing the Lady 4 times more with the additional Cups of Wishes.

Oh and btw: all my advices are theory so far... While I understand the glitches by now fairly well and have worked out some strategies, I'm prone to make mistakes by not testing it ^^...
Edit history:
doicm: 2012-09-13 01:44:23 am
doicm: 2012-09-13 12:23:33 am
Something I found while dinking around on Twitch TV: Co-op speed run done in sub 3.

http://www.twitch.tv/khovastis/b/331663351

End time was 2:55:54.96. Haven't watched the whole thing, but thought I'd post it here for reference. I guess this is current WR? Done by Pydoyks and Khovastis...on 9/9??? Guess a few days ago. XD

EDIT: Just skimmed watching the run. It's pretty impressive, although it's got quite a bit of room for improvement. Some things I noticed:

* Runners don't use experience glitch. Whatever level is equivalent to 398 health for Randi is the level they ended the run at.
* There's hardly any magic spamming to destroy bosses. Instead, they use the weapon charge glitch much more quickly than if you're on single player. Switching weapons back and forth is all it takes. Primary weapon of destruction is the spear. They also know how to time it for the most part, it sounded like.
* The runners go back after Jabberwocky to get the Midge Mallet instead of waiting until they get Flammie. Although this costs more time, it's very helpful later on as they do significantly less shopping throughout the run.
* They utilize the save data glitch only once in the usual place. However, rather than going back to the higher level save after sequence breaking, they stick with the lower level one and continue on.
* They got lucky and caught Aegagropilon in a loop when fighting it.
* In quite a few places, they use a rope-barrier-skip-glitch of some kind? While having sprite cast a spell and having girl (guy could work I guess) move towards the place of interest while guy is near a rope pole, the girl walks across a pit into a new area.

So much about this game I realize I don't know...
INTJ
Wow... I didn't know people were working on this o_o - awesome

I'll check this run out ASAP, thanks Cheesy

From what I can see, it's coop. With 2 actual players it is substantially easier to pull off weapon glitches and pole-skips.

Also, I think we really should get a place where we note the names of the glitches ^^;