Yea, the fact that you can one shot most bosses seems pretty game breaking. I don't know if the amount of time difference counts towards making it its own category or not, but I bet it shaves off at least an hour and a half from a segmented run that doesn't use it. Who would you contact about making that ruling?
SDA Forum
Fucking Weeaboo
Quote from RaneofSOTN:
are you also gonna bust out the stat up glitch where you save and it keeps the + through for a while? that could be helpful in destroying the game further to exploit for higher def n atk.
also if you kill ALL of the rabites from the sword to the village that's level 1 sword tech.
something to try since you should have the spear is if the glitch is accessible under the efforts of a lvl 1 n 0 weapon.
also if you kill ALL of the rabites from the sword to the village that's level 1 sword tech.
something to try since you should have the spear is if the glitch is accessible under the efforts of a lvl 1 n 0 weapon.
Good point. That would work on Tropicallo then! You'd just have to get the girl first, go into the woods, then come back into the cave. Don't know if it's faster then beating Tropicallo normally, but it would certainly be a hell of a lot easier.
And you don't need to kill all the Rabites between the sword and village - just the equiv of what appears in the first screen after the sword. But either way, you just need it before Tropicallo to pull it off. I should try that since I have a save at the boss.
Quote:
Who would you contact about making that ruling?
That's something we should discuss with Mike Uyama about. I'll send him a PM about that, since I'm interested in the ruling too.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
It seems like the weapons charging glitch should be a separate category for two reasons.
1. It lets you pull off an ability that you can't do until late in the game (level 8 charging).
2. It destroys bosses.
Unless if anyone has any objections, the weapon charging glitch is a separate category.
1. It lets you pull off an ability that you can't do until late in the game (level 8 charging).
2. It destroys bosses.
Unless if anyone has any objections, the weapon charging glitch is a separate category.
Fucking Weeaboo
I have absolutely no objections to that, Mike. Seems perfectly fair to me.
GoldenHarvest, normal style is all yours then. I'll work on the glitched version.
Oh yeah, use a spell in the inn just before saving? I don't know how much it'll help, since most of your attacks will take out a boss without any real need for support. Though does it work with Moon Power? That doesn't come until late, but hmmm...
I think I have my remembrance of that glitch right...
GoldenHarvest, normal style is all yours then. I'll work on the glitched version.
Quote:
are you also gonna bust out the stat up glitch where you save and it keeps the + through for a while? that could be helpful in destroying the game further to exploit for higher def n atk.
Oh yeah, use a spell in the inn just before saving? I don't know how much it'll help, since most of your attacks will take out a boss without any real need for support. Though does it work with Moon Power? That doesn't come until late, but hmmm...
I think I have my remembrance of that glitch right...
Fucking Weeaboo
Quote from Nitrodon:
Actually, the weapon charging glitch allows you to charge up to level 127, not just level 8.
(This is just a random fact. I have nothing productive to add to this thread. Carry on with what you were doing.)
(This is just a random fact. I have nothing productive to add to this thread. Carry on with what you were doing.)
...level 127? Are you kidding me?
Too bad (if I remember correctly) that damage is capped at 999. With those type of levels (since glitched charging is fast) you could even take out the Mana Beast in 1 hit if it weren't for that.
Good luck on your respective runs guys. I will certainly enjoy any new SoM productions.
A little info about the weapon glitch. As previously stated, max damage is fixed at 999 so the first 10 bosses or so can be killed in 1 shot but once you get to the Great Viper (the snake before you get to see baby Flammie) you will either have to do some damage with the other 2 characters or do the glitch twice because from that point on (with 1 or 2 exceptions) every boss has more than 999 health. Also, the further you progress, the maximum damage from a normal (read non-critical) charge glitch will start to fall from 999, probably due to low character level / higher boss armor level. Given, its not a whole lot less, but doing only 970 vs 999 for example can mean a longer fight. Towards the end of my TAS I started to use Moon Energy to guarantee a critical 999 hit. It probably added time to the run vs saving it because of having to use the menus, but I think it is relevant. The saving glitch could be used to gain permanent Moon Energy...I never tried.
Eventually I will finish my secret (until now) 2nd TAS, but that will probably be quite a while from now.
A little info about the weapon glitch. As previously stated, max damage is fixed at 999 so the first 10 bosses or so can be killed in 1 shot but once you get to the Great Viper (the snake before you get to see baby Flammie) you will either have to do some damage with the other 2 characters or do the glitch twice because from that point on (with 1 or 2 exceptions) every boss has more than 999 health. Also, the further you progress, the maximum damage from a normal (read non-critical) charge glitch will start to fall from 999, probably due to low character level / higher boss armor level. Given, its not a whole lot less, but doing only 970 vs 999 for example can mean a longer fight. Towards the end of my TAS I started to use Moon Energy to guarantee a critical 999 hit. It probably added time to the run vs saving it because of having to use the menus, but I think it is relevant. The saving glitch could be used to gain permanent Moon Energy...I never tried.
Eventually I will finish my secret (until now) 2nd TAS, but that will probably be quite a while from now.
Fucking Weeaboo
Here's a variation of it that works with CPU players:
Basically, you tell the CPU to charge their weapon to Lv 2, then when they have it charged bring up your menu, change their charge level to 1, which glitches the game as well in the same manner. But it doesn't seem to have the same potency, so the "human" method is better.
Basically, you tell the CPU to charge their weapon to Lv 2, then when they have it charged bring up your menu, change their charge level to 1, which glitches the game as well in the same manner. But it doesn't seem to have the same potency, so the "human" method is better.
There's a word for that
I went and found + watched the glitch TAS last night... craaaaazy stuff. Good luck if you try and hit Spring Beak with it though, even the TAS guy says he couldn't do it.
As for a not-glitched-out-the-wazoo run, there were a few things I picked up when watching that too:
-In the Dwarf Village, the current runner buys a Rabite Cap and Head Gear. The Power Wrist is a bit pricier, but that +5 to Strength is pretty big at that point in the game, and getting it provides extra damage at any point when a weapon is used, include the final battle. Insert Potatos joke here.
-On that note, there is also Int boosting gear for the Sprite. The Circlet is sold in Mandala and the Lazuri Ring on Gold Isle, and both of these give +5 each; that's +10 overall which is quite a lot, considering the amount of spells being cast and the somewhat low levels.
-The girl does have some offensive magic of her own, in particular the fire magic, which never gets used in the current run. I can see this being useful in at least the Frost Gigas battle, especially because each character's casting delay is independent and so they can chain twice as fast.
-I'm not sure Magic Absorb needs to be used so much, but then the trouble is that if you don't level it up it doesn't really work properly on most things. The mega exp glitch should probably be very useful in getting the sprite more MP so that he doesn't need to rely on it so much.
-Dread Slime is a colossal pain because Shade magic is really the only thing that can hurt it, but it's also the only place that it really gets used
I don't know if there's any way to get around that in a non-weapon glitch run, but it's definitely worth looking into.
-The TAS demonstrated that it's faster to use Lucid Barrier in the final battle to defend against damage rather than healing at the right point. It's probably the same deal with Wall/Lucent Beam but that might run down the girl's MP too fast.
-The current run also levels the girl's Luna spells to level 4 for the final battle. I can see how getting enough duration for the power boost is important, but it'd be nice if there were some way to make this quicker too. Permanent stat-up glitch methinks? Shame there's no magic-boosting spell to abuse
As for a not-glitched-out-the-wazoo run, there were a few things I picked up when watching that too:
-In the Dwarf Village, the current runner buys a Rabite Cap and Head Gear. The Power Wrist is a bit pricier, but that +5 to Strength is pretty big at that point in the game, and getting it provides extra damage at any point when a weapon is used, include the final battle. Insert Potatos joke here.
-On that note, there is also Int boosting gear for the Sprite. The Circlet is sold in Mandala and the Lazuri Ring on Gold Isle, and both of these give +5 each; that's +10 overall which is quite a lot, considering the amount of spells being cast and the somewhat low levels.
-The girl does have some offensive magic of her own, in particular the fire magic, which never gets used in the current run. I can see this being useful in at least the Frost Gigas battle, especially because each character's casting delay is independent and so they can chain twice as fast.
-I'm not sure Magic Absorb needs to be used so much, but then the trouble is that if you don't level it up it doesn't really work properly on most things. The mega exp glitch should probably be very useful in getting the sprite more MP so that he doesn't need to rely on it so much.
-Dread Slime is a colossal pain because Shade magic is really the only thing that can hurt it, but it's also the only place that it really gets used
-The TAS demonstrated that it's faster to use Lucid Barrier in the final battle to defend against damage rather than healing at the right point. It's probably the same deal with Wall/Lucent Beam but that might run down the girl's MP too fast.
-The current run also levels the girl's Luna spells to level 4 for the final battle. I can see how getting enough duration for the power boost is important, but it'd be nice if there were some way to make this quicker too. Permanent stat-up glitch methinks? Shame there's no magic-boosting spell to abuse
The idea of grabbing a power wrist is interesting and could definitely save time. I just tested vs Tropicallo and the damage difference was enough to end the fight about 15 seconds quicker (although I also gained an extra level killing more goblins). Before this idea my plan was to just get 150 gold by the dwarf village and not shop at all. I will play around with grabbing the chest in Potos and killing more goblins and see which is quicker by the time you get undine, since that is the last real time you are going to mainly be using weapons in a fight. The magic boosting stuff sounds like it will definitely be useful. Also, I checked to see if anything drops a power wrist, and to my knowledge it is only a rare drop from a Ma goblin... seems kinda ridiculous to me considering you can buy it like 3 bosses before you ever see a ma goblin.
Fucking Weeaboo
Quote:
something to try since you should have the spear is if the glitch is accessible under the efforts of a lvl 1 n 0 weapon.
I tried the WCG with a Lv1:0 sword and a Lv0:0 spear, to which it did NOT work. So the only way I could use it on Tropicallo would be to visit Watts, go fight more enemies to get the sword to Lv 2, then go to the Sprite show.
Now it's starting to really look like I might as well wait to get the girl until after. I thought there was a slim possibility that getting her first to use the WCG on Tropicallo would be faster, but now I say it's a definite 'no'.
Quote from DoubleThink:
I went and found + watched the glitch TAS last night... craaaaazy stuff. Good luck if you try and hit Spring Beak with it though, even the TAS guy says he couldn't do it.
I just got frustrated trying to find a place I could actually hit him in the first TAS and I wanted to keep moving forward. In my 2nd run I found where I had to stand in order to hit him with the glitch, so it is possible. This is where my 2nd run is currently up to, just before entering the wind palace after defeating Spring Beak.
There's a word for that
Haha, nice.
Actually, now that I think about it, with permanent Lunar Boost and Moon Energy, the Power Wrist, and maybe even the appropriate Saber spell it's entirely possible that physical attacks could be useful somewhere before the final battle as well.
EDIT: I tested them against Dark Lich. An unboosted Lv2 Sword charge hit him for about 140. Lunar Boost increased it to 200, and Moon Energy hit for about 500! Both together did over 600, not sure exactly how much because he only had 600 health left on that save state >_> Light Saber (lol) didn't seem to make any difference, even though he's supposedly weak to Lumina. An uncharged hit with both buffs did about 260.
Considering that it's possible to have 3 characters wailing on an enemy at once when using weapons, and how long grinding magic to the right level takes, I'd say this is pretty significant. Now, if only Luna could be gotten earlier...
EDIT 2: That was with 124 Attack... By that point in a speed run, with just the Broad Sword, Power Wrist and the right position on the Action grid (gives +2), it's closer to 65 Guess it's not quite that simple. I'd wager that upgrading everyone's weapon of choice a few times is still faster than extra magic grinding though.
Actually, now that I think about it, with permanent Lunar Boost and Moon Energy, the Power Wrist, and maybe even the appropriate Saber spell it's entirely possible that physical attacks could be useful somewhere before the final battle as well.
EDIT: I tested them against Dark Lich. An unboosted Lv2 Sword charge hit him for about 140. Lunar Boost increased it to 200, and Moon Energy hit for about 500! Both together did over 600, not sure exactly how much because he only had 600 health left on that save state >_> Light Saber (lol) didn't seem to make any difference, even though he's supposedly weak to Lumina. An uncharged hit with both buffs did about 260.
Considering that it's possible to have 3 characters wailing on an enemy at once when using weapons, and how long grinding magic to the right level takes, I'd say this is pretty significant. Now, if only Luna could be gotten earlier...
EDIT 2: That was with 124 Attack... By that point in a speed run, with just the Broad Sword, Power Wrist and the right position on the Action grid (gives +2), it's closer to 65
Fucking Weeaboo
I finally sat down a bit to try to see if I could fully understand and be able to execute the WCG. I think I finally completely get it. You can't execute it if you can't charge both the weapon you have and the weapon you're switching to to at least Level 1. If it can't charge at all, you still get the charged affect, but only at whatever level you can charge to.
Now that I think I have a real understanding, I can finally do some damage.
Now that I think I have a real understanding, I can finally do some damage.
So I tested up to Biting Lizard fight with and without the Power Wrist up to the Biting Lizard fight. I had to go and get swindled by the sprite child first, because with only 250 gold I have just enough (100 for Watts, 150 for Power Wrist), also there is the shopping to take into account. Here are my results. I used an emulator and played in real time with save states in order to try and get accurate results.
Time lost getting money:
Chest in Potos - 0:10
Fighting Goblin Jrs - 0:25
Longer route in Dwarf Village/shopping - 0:22
Fights with Power Wrist:
Tropicallo - 1:02
Spikey - 0:46
Biting Lizard - 2:05
Fights without Power Wrist:
Tropicallo - 1:20
Spikey - 1:03
Biting Lizard - 2:24
So time lost is about 57 seconds. And time gained from the fights is about 55 seconds. Honestly, with results this close I am not really sure which route is better, but I believe that I will take the Power wrist, because most of my problems in these early segments will come from the boss fights, namely Spikey Tiger and his randomness. If I could find a faster way to get money then the Power wrist is definitely faster.
Time lost getting money:
Chest in Potos - 0:10
Fighting Goblin Jrs - 0:25
Longer route in Dwarf Village/shopping - 0:22
Fights with Power Wrist:
Tropicallo - 1:02
Spikey - 0:46
Biting Lizard - 2:05
Fights without Power Wrist:
Tropicallo - 1:20
Spikey - 1:03
Biting Lizard - 2:24
So time lost is about 57 seconds. And time gained from the fights is about 55 seconds. Honestly, with results this close I am not really sure which route is better, but I believe that I will take the Power wrist, because most of my problems in these early segments will come from the boss fights, namely Spikey Tiger and his randomness. If I could find a faster way to get money then the Power wrist is definitely faster.
There's a word for that
Apparently the common chest item for Kid Goblins is 28 GP, which is equivalent to killing two of them. Same for Mushbooms, except they only give 14. The current run also uses the sword in the fight against Kilroy, will you be doing that or not?
Anyway, did some more messing about with weapons and magic. The algorithms were provided in the TAS thread, but I can't seem to get them to work (at least not for weapons), and the post didn't give any of the spell powers or whatnot. But, noting that all damage is ultimately in the form of Power - Defence:
-Lunar Boost seems to increase Power by somewhere between 1/5 and 1/6
-Critical hits double it
-Defence Down (from Acid Storm) decreases Defence by 1/4
Charging is more complicated for some reason, but a level 2 charge (on the sword) seems to increase Power by a bit over 2/3 compared to no charge. Acid Storm's effect could also prove very useful for increasing physical damage, especially if you can hit the Mana Beast with a quick one before it uses Wall. It doesn't last that long, probably only one cycle, but it gives like 100 extra damage per hit.
Magic isn't as difficult to calculate. Magic Power is based on Intelligence for the sprite and Wisdom for the girl. This affects damage as well as hit%; while spells always hit, hit% is also used in calculating whether the attack does a 'weak hit' or not, for both types of damage. The levels of spell power are as follows:
1 - Burst (At higher Int values (60ish?), does about the same damage at Lv4 as the next tier does at Lv6. By far the most powerful spell, but can't hit any weaknesses I don't think.)
2 - Freeze (Yeah), Thunderbolt, Exploder, Lucent Beam (Yeah), Dark Force, Earth Slide (Might be slightly weaker than the others, but it's negligible.) At higher Int values, this tier does about the same damage at Lv4 as tier 4 does at Lv5.
3 - Fireball (Seems to have a have a slightly lower Hit Rate than normal?)
4 - Acid Storm, Fire Bouquet, Air Blast, Gem Missile, Lava Wave (It makes sense for the stat-down magic to be weaker, but this one? It does have a very long animation...)
5 - Blaze Wall
6 - Energy Absorb
Magic Absorb works slightly differently (final damage / 10), and its level of effectiveness can be seen in the current run.
This shows that Freeze is indeed the most efficient spell for general spamming due to its high power and 2 MP cost; Burst is probably gotten too late to be useful sadly. The fight against the 3 Biting Lizards just before Frost Gigas should be more than enough to get the girl's fire magic to level 1, allowing FG to be double-teamed with Fireball and Fire Bouquet. With any luck she can help out with a few of the later fights too, like Lime Slime.
Not sure how useful all of this is speedrun-wise, but I felt like doing it anyway >_>
Anyway, did some more messing about with weapons and magic. The algorithms were provided in the TAS thread, but I can't seem to get them to work (at least not for weapons), and the post didn't give any of the spell powers or whatnot. But, noting that all damage is ultimately in the form of Power - Defence:
-Lunar Boost seems to increase Power by somewhere between 1/5 and 1/6
-Critical hits double it
-Defence Down (from Acid Storm) decreases Defence by 1/4
Charging is more complicated for some reason, but a level 2 charge (on the sword) seems to increase Power by a bit over 2/3 compared to no charge. Acid Storm's effect could also prove very useful for increasing physical damage, especially if you can hit the Mana Beast with a quick one before it uses Wall. It doesn't last that long, probably only one cycle, but it gives like 100 extra damage per hit.
Magic isn't as difficult to calculate. Magic Power is based on Intelligence for the sprite and Wisdom for the girl. This affects damage as well as hit%; while spells always hit, hit% is also used in calculating whether the attack does a 'weak hit' or not, for both types of damage. The levels of spell power are as follows:
1 - Burst (At higher Int values (60ish?), does about the same damage at Lv4 as the next tier does at Lv6. By far the most powerful spell, but can't hit any weaknesses I don't think.)
2 - Freeze (Yeah), Thunderbolt, Exploder, Lucent Beam (Yeah), Dark Force, Earth Slide (Might be slightly weaker than the others, but it's negligible.) At higher Int values, this tier does about the same damage at Lv4 as tier 4 does at Lv5.
3 - Fireball (Seems to have a have a slightly lower Hit Rate than normal?)
4 - Acid Storm, Fire Bouquet, Air Blast, Gem Missile, Lava Wave (It makes sense for the stat-down magic to be weaker, but this one? It does have a very long animation...)
5 - Blaze Wall
6 - Energy Absorb
Magic Absorb works slightly differently (final damage / 10), and its level of effectiveness can be seen in the current run.
This shows that Freeze is indeed the most efficient spell for general spamming due to its high power and 2 MP cost; Burst is probably gotten too late to be useful sadly. The fight against the 3 Biting Lizards just before Frost Gigas should be more than enough to get the girl's fire magic to level 1, allowing FG to be double-teamed with Fireball and Fire Bouquet. With any luck she can help out with a few of the later fights too, like Lime Slime.
Not sure how useful all of this is speedrun-wise, but I felt like doing it anyway >_>
That information is definitely useful! I forgot about the Kilroy fight. I wish I didn't have to use the sword, but there is no way to kill him with just magic. 5 Lvl. 1 Freezes do about 250, 5 Lvl.2 Freezes do over 500 damage, 3 Lvl. 2 Earth Slide do 300 damage and 5 Lvl. 2 Gem Missiles do about 350. So the question is whether to level undine for the fight or not, or to level it during the fight like Seiken did. I was wondering if I could get away with not leveling Gnome at all, since after Hydra Seiken doesn't use him again until Doom Wall, but I think Hydra might take way too long otherwise since I don't think Undine works on him -- I will still have to play with the idea. I think the duration on Acid Rain is too short to be useful except in the Mana Beast fight like you mentioned. The difference in damage is pretty neglegable in the Kilroy fight. With the Power Wrist a lvl.2 attack did about 65-67 damage, and without the Power Wrist the damage was about 55, meaning that it only takes one or two more hits to kill him without the Power Wrist. However, If I had the patience to wait for a run where I got 2 common drops from Kid Goblins (I do not know the odds of that), then I would kill just as many as if I did not get the Power Wrist. Who knows how long that would take though.
Face Wall can definitely be killed pretty easily with 5 lvl. 2 Freezes and a couple of attacks, but Jabberwocky will be a completely different story. 5 lvl.2 freezes do somewhat over 300 damage, which means if I want to spend all of my money up to the point I could buy two faerie walnuts from neko to take down his 950 hp. I am working my way through the game to see how many bosses can be killed somewhat quickly with freezes, but I feel like I will end up having to level gnome anyways. Further tests will see!
There's a word for that
I would say that Gnome would be more useful just on principle, since it's stronger against Wall Face, Jabberwocky AND Spring Beak, but the results you're getting with Freeze are surprisingly good. Oh, and by Hydra, did you mean Jabberwocky? You'll have Salamando for Hydra.
Hitting a weakness in general is more efficient because it's so much more powerful (Power x2 for a weakness, or halved for a resistance, dunno about absorption?), but that leaves Freeze weaker against the bosses with no element/Shade/Dryad. Using it alone works well for now, but I think this will become a bigger problem when you reach places like the Pure Land, where bosses start getting some pretty hefty Magic Defence and HP. Spell level multiplies damage by (1+element level/2), so even a Lv6 Freeze will only be as strong as a Lv2 spell hitting a weakness.
Boss/preferred element tally from when magic is gotten:
Fire Gigas - Undine
Wall Face - Gnome
Kilroy - Undine
Jabberwocky - Gnome
Spring Beak - Gnome
Great Viper - Sylphid
Mech Rider - Undine
Boreal Face - Undine (This has him listed as Dryad elemental)
Biting Lizard - Salamando
Frost Gigas - Salamando
Minotaur - Sylphid
Doom's Wall - Undine
Vampire - Undine
Metal Mantis - Undine
Mech Rider 2 - Undine
Lime Slime - Salamando
Blue Spike - Undine
Gorgon Bull - Sylphid
Luna gotten here! Magic Absorb gotten/Physical attacks become viable again
Aegagropilon - Undine
Hydra - Salamando
Kettle Kin - Undine
Snap Dragon - Salamando
Hexas - Undine
Mech Rider 3 - Undine
Dragon Worm - Sylphid
Snow Dragon - Salamando
Axe Beak - Undine
Red Dragon - Undine
Thunder Gigas - Gnome
Blue Dragon - Gnome
Buffy - Undine
Dread Slime - Shade
Dark Lich - Undine
If there's anything worth dropping, I would say it's Sylphid, because he's only useful in 4 fights and none of them are especially hard. Thunder Gigas is pretty serious business, but that's such a long time from when Gnome was used last that I don't know how strong he would be there. Seiken has him at Lv4, but maybe Lv3 with Earth Slide and boosting gear would be enough if Freeze doesn't cut it. Otherwise, Undine gets a LOT of use, and Salamando covers her weak spots perfectly.
Having a couple of longer battles in places definitely beats grinding for magic, but just in that small section Gnome seems really useful. If you can beat Jabberwocky with the method you outlined then that's fine, but it could make cash a bit tight later when/if you get the Int-boosting gear.
Hitting a weakness in general is more efficient because it's so much more powerful (Power x2 for a weakness, or halved for a resistance, dunno about absorption?), but that leaves Freeze weaker against the bosses with no element/Shade/Dryad. Using it alone works well for now, but I think this will become a bigger problem when you reach places like the Pure Land, where bosses start getting some pretty hefty Magic Defence and HP. Spell level multiplies damage by (1+element level/2), so even a Lv6 Freeze will only be as strong as a Lv2 spell hitting a weakness.
Boss/preferred element tally from when magic is gotten:
Fire Gigas - Undine
Wall Face - Gnome
Kilroy - Undine
Jabberwocky - Gnome
Spring Beak - Gnome
Great Viper - Sylphid
Mech Rider - Undine
Boreal Face - Undine (This has him listed as Dryad elemental)
Biting Lizard - Salamando
Frost Gigas - Salamando
Minotaur - Sylphid
Doom's Wall - Undine
Vampire - Undine
Metal Mantis - Undine
Mech Rider 2 - Undine
Lime Slime - Salamando
Blue Spike - Undine
Gorgon Bull - Sylphid
Luna gotten here! Magic Absorb gotten/Physical attacks become viable again
Aegagropilon - Undine
Hydra - Salamando
Kettle Kin - Undine
Snap Dragon - Salamando
Hexas - Undine
Mech Rider 3 - Undine
Dragon Worm - Sylphid
Snow Dragon - Salamando
Axe Beak - Undine
Red Dragon - Undine
Thunder Gigas - Gnome
Blue Dragon - Gnome
Buffy - Undine
Dread Slime - Shade
Dark Lich - Undine
If there's anything worth dropping, I would say it's Sylphid, because he's only useful in 4 fights and none of them are especially hard. Thunder Gigas is pretty serious business, but that's such a long time from when Gnome was used last that I don't know how strong he would be there. Seiken has him at Lv4, but maybe Lv3 with Earth Slide and boosting gear would be enough if Freeze doesn't cut it. Otherwise, Undine gets a LOT of use, and Salamando covers her weak spots perfectly.
Having a couple of longer battles in places definitely beats grinding for magic, but just in that small section Gnome seems really useful. If you can beat Jabberwocky with the method you outlined then that's fine, but it could make cash a bit tight later when/if you get the Int-boosting gear.
Yea I meant Jabberwocky (I am terrible at confusing boss names, although it doesn't help that a lot of bosses get recycled). I tested and I was able to beat Jabberwocky, but had to use basically all of my money at that point for two walnuts... Unfortunately Spring Beak would take two walnuts as well, and there is no way I have 4k gold by that point, plus that is a lot more casts then if I used gnome (like 15 versus 3), so most of the time gained by not leveling would probably be lost even if I could come up with a way to beat him...
I am just trying to find all of the improvements I can and spend as least time leveling as possible, but unfortunately there are a lot of ideas I have to play with to find the best one. I will have more money then Seiken, because I do not plan on buying any chocolates/cup of wishes, which means I will have more money to buy walnuts to spam on bosses if I end up skipping Slyphide. Plus, by that point I can buy them for 500. I will test out the idea of skipping Slyphide in the next couple of days.
Edit: Should I abuse other glitches besides the weapon's glitch like the giltch where you kill one of your characters with a reflected spell and get levels? If so where is the first place that I can use that glitch? (I was thinking the knight guys in the palace of darkness). If I use this glitch I could get like 20 levels in 5 minutes I think. Also, you can get quite of bit of gold from using it. Anyways... Let me know if you think I should use it.
Edit2: What is the first monster you encounter that casts wall?
I am just trying to find all of the improvements I can and spend as least time leveling as possible, but unfortunately there are a lot of ideas I have to play with to find the best one. I will have more money then Seiken, because I do not plan on buying any chocolates/cup of wishes, which means I will have more money to buy walnuts to spam on bosses if I end up skipping Slyphide. Plus, by that point I can buy them for 500. I will test out the idea of skipping Slyphide in the next couple of days.
Edit: Should I abuse other glitches besides the weapon's glitch like the giltch where you kill one of your characters with a reflected spell and get levels? If so where is the first place that I can use that glitch? (I was thinking the knight guys in the palace of darkness). If I use this glitch I could get like 20 levels in 5 minutes I think. Also, you can get quite of bit of gold from using it. Anyways... Let me know if you think I should use it.
Edit2: What is the first monster you encounter that casts wall?
Quote from GoldenHarvest:
(I was thinking the knight guys in the palace of darkness)
I believe you are correct.
As for actually using it...hmm. I would think that any unintended programming error abuse would be in the 'glitched' run category, be it weapon/wall spell/permanent stat increase. I think if your goal is a non-weapon glitch run then I would stick to an 'as intended' approach. Not that I have any say in the matter, its just what makes sense to me. /debate
Exoray
Glitch categories are only separate in cases of extreme glitching, like the weapon-glitch in this case (although exceptions exist for some games that are very popular to run). In this case I would say that the level up glitch does not classify as a major glitch and is therefore the encouraged method to utilize in order to play through the non-extreme-glitch category as quickly as possible.
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
The vast majority of glitches don't get their own category. They usually skip on the level of entire stages. I mean entire stages, like OOT or Portal. Skipping large portions of stages as in Sonic 2 doesn't count.
To be honest, the confusion is because separating the weapon glitch in this game is the closest to "non-broken" a separated glitch has ever been by far, and then the next question is "well if the weapon glitch should be separated, then the levelup glitch should be too? and then stat-saving glitch should be too?" My opinion (I'm not Mike, so my opinion wrt this game doesn't mean any more than any of yours) is that there shouldn't even be a super-glitched category for this game. Every other time this has happened in the past, it was because large portions of the game were being skipped. None of that happens here. A glitch just makes bosses die really fast, and the vast majority of the game is spent outside boss fights anyway. That happens lots of times for lots of games.
We don't do "natural runs" on this site because they are extremely ill-defined in nature (judging intent is debatable), so the categories are never glitches vs no glitches. It's weird because all 3 glitches here are of the same type (kill bosses fast), so separating out only one of them is strange. It's even stranger because the sequel (SD3) is getting a run right now, and there is a completely broken max strength glitch, and it's already been long decided that it doesn't warrant a new category. Fast boss-kill glitches being separated would be quite a new precedent.
Then again, I hate telling people they can't do stuff, and seems like many people have already put good work into this route, so reversing position at this stage would be kinda stupid.
To be honest, the confusion is because separating the weapon glitch in this game is the closest to "non-broken" a separated glitch has ever been by far, and then the next question is "well if the weapon glitch should be separated, then the levelup glitch should be too? and then stat-saving glitch should be too?" My opinion (I'm not Mike, so my opinion wrt this game doesn't mean any more than any of yours) is that there shouldn't even be a super-glitched category for this game. Every other time this has happened in the past, it was because large portions of the game were being skipped. None of that happens here. A glitch just makes bosses die really fast, and the vast majority of the game is spent outside boss fights anyway. That happens lots of times for lots of games.
We don't do "natural runs" on this site because they are extremely ill-defined in nature (judging intent is debatable), so the categories are never glitches vs no glitches. It's weird because all 3 glitches here are of the same type (kill bosses fast), so separating out only one of them is strange. It's even stranger because the sequel (SD3) is getting a run right now, and there is a completely broken max strength glitch, and it's already been long decided that it doesn't warrant a new category. Fast boss-kill glitches being separated would be quite a new precedent.
Then again, I hate telling people they can't do stuff, and seems like many people have already put good work into this route, so reversing position at this stage would be kinda stupid.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
The "glitch" category exists for two reasons:
1. If there is a glitch that cuts out a great deal of time. This usually equates to OOB because it usually lets you skip large portions of the game and it's easy to quantify. I think the item duplication glitch in Wild Arms might count too, since it lets you max out your stats really fast, cutting out the need for any leveling.
2. To accomodate certain speedrunning communities: Super Mario Kart games and their shortcut glitches (lakitu, Wario Colosseum, etc.), Tomb Raider runners and the all glitches almost no glitches category (I need to change the pages to reflect this). Then again, both of these examples technically count under number one, since lakitu glitches basically cut out the whole track, and Tomb Raider's corner and trigger glitches generally skip large portions of a level.
Do the weapon switching and leveling glitches in Secret of Mana cut off a big chunk of time? Hard to say. Maybe I'm wrong and the weapon switching glitch doesn't save much time at all. If that's the case, then I'm wrong and we probably shouldn't have separate categories for this game. But for now, I'll keep the ruling as is.
About the leveling glitch, I guess I would have to put it in the same category as the weapon glitch.
P.S. If anyone is wondering, there will only be two glitch categories for each game, glitch/extreme glitch or no extreme glitch. If any OoT runners are reading this, I might make the BA glitch part of the glitch category because it lets you warp around at will, but I won't make the glitch another category (game has enough categories as is).
1. If there is a glitch that cuts out a great deal of time. This usually equates to OOB because it usually lets you skip large portions of the game and it's easy to quantify. I think the item duplication glitch in Wild Arms might count too, since it lets you max out your stats really fast, cutting out the need for any leveling.
2. To accomodate certain speedrunning communities: Super Mario Kart games and their shortcut glitches (lakitu, Wario Colosseum, etc.), Tomb Raider runners and the all glitches almost no glitches category (I need to change the pages to reflect this). Then again, both of these examples technically count under number one, since lakitu glitches basically cut out the whole track, and Tomb Raider's corner and trigger glitches generally skip large portions of a level.
Do the weapon switching and leveling glitches in Secret of Mana cut off a big chunk of time? Hard to say. Maybe I'm wrong and the weapon switching glitch doesn't save much time at all. If that's the case, then I'm wrong and we probably shouldn't have separate categories for this game. But for now, I'll keep the ruling as is.
About the leveling glitch, I guess I would have to put it in the same category as the weapon glitch.
P.S. If anyone is wondering, there will only be two glitch categories for each game, glitch/extreme glitch or no extreme glitch. If any OoT runners are reading this, I might make the BA glitch part of the glitch category because it lets you warp around at will, but I won't make the glitch another category (game has enough categories as is).