Secret of Mana

2009-05-11 05:08:28 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote:

Do the weapon switching and leveling glitches in Secret of Mana cut off a big chunk of time? Hard to say. Maybe I'm wrong and the weapon switching glitch doesn't save much time at all. If that's the case, then I'm wrong and we probably shouldn't have separate categories for this game. But for now, I'll keep the ruling as is.

Given that you can beat the first half of the game's bosses in 1 hit (if done properly), I don't know how it can not save time. And all the later half can be done in (mostly) 2-4. Setup doesn't take that long, just needs a little coordination.

Fulgore

2009-05-11 06:37:34 pm

*absorbs info*

So far, no major sequence breaks exist that would put this game in an 'extreme' glitch category. However, the weapon glitch does save vast amounts of time from boss fights that take up a good portion of the game. Leveling the spells to prepare for the boss and then actually spamming them to death with said magic takes way longer than proper execution of a couple weapon glitch strikes, even on bosses where you have to hit them more than twice.

As for the level up glitch, I'm going to assume that, for example, if the sprite is level 25 and casts a level 4 freeze it will do more damage than if the sprite was level 20. It's something I've never tested but it has the potential for lowering the amount of time spent raising spell levels and can be used to gain hit points / survivability. However, if higher levels don't equate to higher magic damage at the same spell level, then I'm really not sure how useful it could be Undecided

GoldenHarvest

Edit history:

GoldenHarvest: 2009-05-11 09:17:45 pm

2009-05-11 07:09:24 pm

I don't know the exact equation, but I know that spell damage is based on the spell level and his intelligence, so yea if the sprite is level 40 instead of level 20 she will do more damage. But, if I can't level ridiculously fast (aka using the experience glitch), then most of my levels will just come from bosses.

mikwuyma

2009-05-11 08:17:54 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

By keep the ruling as is, I meant as a separate category. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

Enhasa

2009-05-13 01:57:45 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I hinted at this but didn't get to it in my last post.

Right now we have separate glitch categories for how much of the game they cut out, basically. Maybe the best criterion would be how much time they save, although this can be very tricky because unlike proportions of games, new tricks means that this could change with a new discovery. Since I think the time saving is more pertinent, that's one of the things we'll change this summer.

Overall, one of the biggest trends is that we used to prioritize legitimacy and consistency (aka trying hard to be even and fair so people won't bitch at us), but maybe it's just better to make the majority of people happier instead of trying to minimize the upset minority. What Mike said was exactly what I've had in mind for a while: extreme glitches vs no extreme glitches. I know it sounds stupid and vague and TG-like to say what an "extreme" glitch is, but we shouldn't let what anyone else does dictate our decisions. Similarly, we try to be as consistent as possible across all games, but maybe these categories should be decided by the individual communities (the TG approach... every game's rules are set by whoever submits first basically). Not saying we will be like that at all, but that we maybe shouldn't worry so much about being consistent and instead do what the people want.

So, back to SOM, what do the people want? Weapon glitch people want separated, but what about leveling glitch or stat glitch? I really don't care either way.

I hinted at this but didn't get to it in my last post.

Right now we have separate glitch categories for how much of the game they cut out, basically. Maybe the best criterion would be how much time they save, although this can be very tricky because unlike proportions of games, new tricks means that this could change with a new discovery. Since I think the time saving is more pertinent, that's one of the things we'll change this summer.

Overall, one of the biggest trends is that we used to prioritize legitimacy and consistency (aka trying hard to be even and fair so people won't bitch at us), but maybe it's just better to make the majority of people happier instead of trying to minimize the upset minority. What Mike said was exactly what I've had in mind for a while: extreme glitches vs no extreme glitches. I know it sounds stupid and vague and TG-like to say what an "extreme" glitch is, but we shouldn't let what anyone else does dictate our decisions. Similarly, we try to be as consistent as possible across all games, but maybe these categories should be decided by the individual communities (the TG approach... every game's rules are set by whoever submits first basically). Not saying we will be like that at all, but that we maybe shouldn't worry so much about being consistent and instead do what the people want.

So, back to SOM, what do the people want? Weapon glitch people want separated, but what about leveling glitch or stat glitch? I really don't care either way.

Sir VG

2009-05-13 02:06:00 am

Fucking Weeaboo

I haven't seen the other two in action, but the glitch that keeps permanent spell abilities really doesn't break the game anywhere near the way the weapon glitch does. And I doubt the leveling glitch does either.

So I think there should be two categories - weapon glitch vs no weapon glitch. If there's evidence to prove one of the other glitches can be just as devastating, then show it and I might change my mind.

DoubleThink

2009-05-13 06:05:02 am

There's a word for that

I don't think that the exp or perma-buff glitches are capable of destroying enemies in the same way that the charge glitch is. When it comes down to it, all they will really do is save time magic grinding; neither of them will really allow for 'abnormal' levels of damage to be done, and will probably only come into play in the last 1/3 of the run. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it's also possible to do the perma-buff glitch by accident, and taking steps to avoid a glitch just for the purpose of having a no-glitch run seems kinda silly. Unless some other glitch pops up that's further into the grey area, weapon glitch vs no weapon glitch sounds fine to me, and honestly I'm not sure who it would bother excessively. Then again, I'm hardly a SoM 'vet', I just like throwing numbers at people Tongue

GoldenHarvest

2009-05-13 01:30:10 pm

So, just to make the glitch v. non glitch debate slightly more interesting, I read something that could be useful for any run. In Matango you can skip talking to King Truffle and 'walk' through the guard by spamming the swap key. I was unsure if you needed to talk to King Truffle to trigger an event, so I went up to Great Viper and talked to the King after finding Flammie. Not talking to the King saves about 30 seconds. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the game could tell me for sure if not talking to the kind before that would stop something else from being active, because I do not know all the nuts and bolts of the game.

Scepheo

2009-05-13 01:48:25 pm

I the same way you can get back in Potos Village after being banished? Awesome. Anyway, 30 seconds on a run this long isn't really major game breaking, so I don't think this should count in the debate. Then again, I don't feel the weapon glitch is extreme enough for a separate category either so... There aren't really stages (such as palaces) that the glitch skips, it just cuts down time on boss fights (and some grinding, but that's not skipping a stage, that's skipping the repeated (thus boring) killing of monsters, thus the glitch simply increases entertainment value in my opinion).

Enhasa

2009-05-15 01:05:14 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I agree with Scepheo. I don't really want to see more boring leveling up magic and then spamming said magic on bosses. Optimizing the movement is by far the more interesting part of this run. This is one of the rare games where 1p has a higher speed potential than 3p, not because of lag but because of a 1p-exclusive ability. With 3p you dash, then have to wait until you recharge to 100%. With 1p, you can dash, then switch characters and dash, repeat. I really hope people doing this run at least know about this. Warning: if I'm a verifier, I'd probably reject any run that doesn't do this.

Yeah, this game (and series) are so glitchy. Square programmers were even worse than yabb and smf programmers. Shocked

I remember using this walk through dudes glitch back in the day, being so excited about being back in the first town, then realized it doesn't actually do anything useful. Undecided

BTW about the weapon glitch, I think the only real way to settle this is for someone to make a test run (doesn't have to be optimized but it does need to be relatively same quality both ways) for "no weapon glitch but yes to everything else" vs "anything goes."

I agree with Scepheo. I don't really want to see more boring leveling up magic and then spamming said magic on bosses. Optimizing the movement is by far the more interesting part of this run. This is one of the rare games where 1p has a higher speed potential than 3p, not because of lag but because of a 1p-exclusive ability. With 3p you dash, then have to wait until you recharge to 100%. With 1p, you can dash, then switch characters and dash, repeat. I really hope people doing this run at least know about this. Warning: if I'm a verifier, I'd probably reject any run that doesn't do this.

Yeah, this game (and series) are so glitchy. Square programmers were even worse than yabb and smf programmers. :o I remember using this walk through dudes glitch back in the day, being so excited about being back in the first town, then realized it doesn't actually do anything useful. :-\

BTW about the weapon glitch, I think the only real way to settle this is for someone to make a test run (doesn't have to be optimized but it does need to be relatively same quality both ways) for "no weapon glitch but yes to everything else" vs "anything goes."

Scepheo

2009-05-15 05:59:53 am

Quote from Enhasa:

BTW about the weapon glitch, I think the only real way to settle this is for someone to make a test run (doesn't have to be optimized but it does need to be relatively same quality both ways) for "no weapon glitch but yes to everything else" vs "anything goes."

Up to a certain point in the game I'd say. Otherwise it's going to be an awfully long test run (two actually) and the difference between them may then be, for a great part, simply good/bad luck.

GoldenHarvest

2009-05-15 06:48:45 pm

A test run that uses the weapon's glitch already exists in the form of a test TAS and is 2:45 long (This run is probably possible for a human since the author did not really try to optimize it but simply to show what it would look like). I am working on a route that doesn't use the weapon's glitch, but it is a long process, mainly because I have a lot of choices to weed through to find the quickest option. This process is actually what makes the non weapon glitch run interesting to me, because it would show to the audience decisions made about money and strategies (not using an element at all for instance). This will absent from the weapon's glitch run because no planning is needed. Also, to me at least, a good part of the enjoyment in this game actually does come from some of the boss fights. While it is fair to say that many of them will just be magic spammed, some of them will not. These fights, Spikey Tiger is a good example, allow for quite a bit of strategy and planning and are very entertaining. Also, I have not played around with Lunar Boost very much, but I know that the damage is quite comparable to magic spamming and it could be used in some of the later fights. Sorry for the rant and I guess it will be up to each person to decide which run they enjoy more. As a rough estimate I would say that not using the weapon's glitch would make a run time come to somewhere between 4:00 and 4:15, but I could be wrong in either direction. The test run I make will be in the form of a TAS played in real time, saving me enormous amounts of time on bad luck, and letting me hopefully getting something comparable to the glitched run in terms of consistency. Don't expect this for a while.

On a separate note, I was playing around last night with attempting to skip talking to Jema/Luka in the Water Temple right after Mantis Ant. As many of you probably know the game does not prohibit you from entering Gaia's Navel without talking to Luka. Instead, after you fight Spikey Tiger you will not be able to enter Undine's Cave as you typically would, and thus will be stuck. HHS over at TASVideos isolated a memory address that is responsible for triggering Undine's Cave to be under attack and it must be set to 0C, but for some reason if you skip talking to Jema/Luka it is set to 0A instead after the Spikey Tiger fight. Someone who knows about the game mechanics better than me could tell me to give up at this idea or give me ideas on how I might succeed. Right now I am basically just trying things in slightly different sequence and watching the memory value but no luck... I would love to come up with a sequence break for this game.

A test run that uses the weapon's glitch already exists in the form of a test TAS and is 2:45 long (This run is probably possible for a human since the author did not really try to optimize it but simply to show what it would look like). I am working on a route that doesn't use the weapon's glitch, but it is a long process, mainly because I have a lot of choices to weed through to find the quickest option. This process is actually what makes the non weapon glitch run interesting to me, because it would show to the audience decisions made about money and strategies (not using an element at all for instance). This will absent from the weapon's glitch run because no planning is needed. Also, to me at least, a good part of the enjoyment in this game actually does come from some of the boss fights. While it is fair to say that many of them will just be magic spammed, some of them will not. These fights, Spikey Tiger is a good example, allow for quite a bit of strategy and planning and are very entertaining. Also, I have not played around with Lunar Boost very much, but I know that the damage is quite comparable to magic spamming and it could be used in some of the later fights. Sorry for the rant and I guess it will be up to each person to decide which run they enjoy more. As a rough estimate I would say that not using the weapon's glitch would make a run time come to somewhere between 4:00 and 4:15, but I could be wrong in either direction. The test run I make will be in the form of a TAS played in real time, saving me enormous amounts of time on bad luck, and letting me hopefully getting something comparable to the glitched run in terms of consistency. Don't expect this for a while.

On a separate note, I was playing around last night with attempting to skip talking to Jema/Luka in the Water Temple right after Mantis Ant. As many of you probably know the game does not prohibit you from entering Gaia's Navel without talking to Luka. Instead, after you fight Spikey Tiger you will not be able to enter Undine's Cave as you typically would, and thus will be stuck. HHS over at TASVideos isolated a memory address that is responsible for triggering Undine's Cave to be under attack and it must be set to 0C, but for some reason if you skip talking to Jema/Luka it is set to 0A instead after the Spikey Tiger fight. Someone who knows about the game mechanics better than me could tell me to give up at this idea or give me ideas on how I might succeed. Right now I am basically just trying things in slightly different sequence and watching the memory value but no luck... I would love to come up with a sequence break for this game.

DoubleThink

2009-05-15 10:25:25 pm

There's a word for that

Quote from GoldenHarvest:

This process is actually what makes the non weapon glitch run interesting to me, because it would show to the audience decisions made about money and strategies (not using an element at all for instance). This will absent from the weapon's glitch run because no planning is needed.

This basically sums up my thoughts too. "Get weapon glitch -> kill everything with weapon glitch" doesn't sound any more interesting than magic grinding. I know it's not that simple, there are things like efficient running and keeping characters alive to consider, but I'd feel like kind of a dick for knocking down GoldenHarvest's work just because he couldn't use the completely broken tactic. As for testing both runs from a split point, I don't think that would work, because they differ right from the start; the weapon glitch run involves powering up the weapons ASAP, while a 'regular' run involves running the hell away from everything until the dwarf cave. Personally I'd like to wait and see what kind of results GoldenHarvest can come up with, but then I'd feel like a bigger dick having him do all that work just to say it's too slow. ...Youtube run ahoy?

[quote="GoldenHarvest"]
This process is actually what makes the non weapon glitch run interesting to me, because it would show to the audience decisions made about money and strategies (not using an element at all for instance). This will absent from the weapon's glitch run because no planning is needed.[/quote]
This basically sums up my thoughts too. "Get weapon glitch -> kill everything with weapon glitch" doesn't sound any more interesting than magic grinding. I know it's not that simple, there are things like efficient running and keeping characters alive to consider, but I'd feel like kind of a dick for knocking down GoldenHarvest's work just because he couldn't use the completely broken tactic. As for testing both runs from a split point, I don't think that would work, because they differ right from the start; the weapon glitch run involves powering up the weapons ASAP, while a 'regular' run involves running the hell away from everything until the dwarf cave. Personally I'd like to wait and see what kind of results GoldenHarvest can come up with, but then I'd feel like a bigger dick having him do all that work just to say it's too slow. [size=6pt]...Youtube run ahoy?[/size]

Scepheo

2009-05-16 03:25:44 am

I meant from the beginning of the game to a point somewhere halfway in the game. Not from a certain point on, only from the beginning. The halfway run should already show the difference between magic grinding and WCG (lol, World Cyber Games) enough to make a rough estimate for the rest of the game. Or you simply make the run go up to the point from where on it's magic-spamming-ahoy anyway, regardless of WCG or not.

And I'm not saying I'd prefer to see a run using the glitch, I'm simply saying that I feel the glitch isn't big enough to qualify for a new category. Honestly, I don't know what I'd prefer to see...

One thing I would like to note though: If the decision is made NOT to make it a separate category, but GoldenHarvest still decides NOT to use it, that shouldn't be a reason to reject the run, even though it can be done faster.

And actually, if GoldenHarvest makes a glitchless run, we can also simply wait till somebody does a glitched run, so we can see how much it breaks the game, and THEN we decide whether it should be a new category.

I meant from the beginning of the game to a point somewhere halfway in the game. Not from a certain point on, only from the beginning. The halfway run should already show the difference between magic grinding and WCG (lol, World Cyber Games) enough to make a rough estimate for the rest of the game. Or you simply make the run go up to the point from where on it's magic-spamming-ahoy anyway, regardless of WCG or not.

And I'm not saying I'd prefer to see a run using the glitch, I'm simply saying that I feel the glitch isn't big enough to qualify for a new category. Honestly, I don't know what I'd prefer to see...

One thing I would like to note though: If the decision is made NOT to make it a separate category, but GoldenHarvest still decides NOT to use it, that shouldn't be a reason to reject the run, even though it can be done faster.

And actually, if GoldenHarvest makes a glitchless run, we can also simply wait till somebody does a glitched run, so we can see how much it breaks the game, and THEN we decide whether it should be a new category.

GoldenHarvest

2009-05-16 07:44:12 am

Quote:

Personally I'd like to wait and see what kind of results GoldenHarvest can come up with, but then I'd feel like a bigger dick having him do all that work just to say it's too slow.

I could possibly do a short run of what it would look like, but I know that I will not have the motivation to do the amount of research necessary to play through half the game if there is a good chance it will be all for not.

Quote:

One thing I would like to note though: If the decision is made NOT to make it a separate category, but GoldenHarvest still decides NOT to use it, that shouldn't be a reason to reject the run, even though it can be done faster.

Its funny the whole reason why I thought that there were separate categories to begin with is because Seiken's run doesn't use it and it was published and obviously if it was allowed then no verifier could accept something that doesn't save an hour or 2.

I am not sure that I could make a glitchless run if it was not in the same category because the run will be long and difficult and I will not be motivated to work hard on something that will be easily obsoleted because I didn't use the WCG.

[quote]Personally I'd like to wait and see what kind of results GoldenHarvest can come up with, but then I'd feel like a bigger dick having him do all that work just to say it's too slow.[/quote]

I could possibly do a short run of what it would look like, but I know that I will not have the motivation to do the amount of research necessary to play through half the game if there is a good chance it will be all for not.

[quote]One thing I would like to note though: If the decision is made NOT to make it a separate category, but GoldenHarvest still decides NOT to use it, that shouldn't be a reason to reject the run, even though it can be done faster.[/quote]

Its funny the whole reason why I thought that there were separate categories to begin with is because Seiken's run doesn't use it and it was published and obviously if it was allowed then no verifier could accept something that doesn't save an hour or 2.

I am not sure that I could make a glitchless run if it was not in the same category because the run will be long and difficult and I will not be motivated to work hard on something that will be easily obsoleted because I didn't use the WCG.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2009-05-18 02:03:37 pm

2009-05-18 01:58:22 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote from GoldenHarvest:

Its funny the whole reason why I thought that there were separate categories to begin with is because Seiken's run doesn't use it and it was published and obviously if it was allowed then no verifier could accept something that doesn't save an hour or 2.

No, that was before we had verification for play quality. In fact, apologies to seiken, but I always gave SOM as the answer whenever someone would ask what run on SDA could be the most improved. Anyway I was not a verifier, but I sure would have rejected that run (and been ignored anyway, but still), especially since separate glitch categories didn't exist then. If I had known that he intentionally left them out instead of just being ignorant, I would have been more forgiving.

Anyway GH, you can just go ahead, you'll be ok. We should just accept that every game can have 2 categories and be done with it. Everyone cool with weapon glitch (i.e. everything) allowed vs everything except weapon glitch allowed?

[quote="GoldenHarvest"]
Its funny the whole reason why I thought that there were separate categories to begin with is because Seiken's run doesn't use it and it was published and obviously if it was allowed then no verifier could accept something that doesn't save an hour or 2.
[/quote]
No, that was before we had verification for play quality. In fact, apologies to seiken, but I always gave SOM as the answer whenever someone would ask what run on SDA could be the most improved. Anyway I was not a verifier, but I sure would have rejected that run (and been ignored anyway, but still), especially since separate glitch categories didn't exist then. If I had known that he intentionally left them out instead of just being ignorant, I would have been more forgiving.

Anyway GH, you can just go ahead, you'll be ok. We should just accept that every game can have 2 categories and be done with it. Everyone cool with weapon glitch (i.e. everything) allowed vs everything except weapon glitch allowed?

GoldenHarvest

2009-05-18 08:59:56 pm

Quote:

No, that was before we had verification for play quality.

Oh that makes a lot more sense then. I haven't been in this community very long.

Quote:

Anyway GH, you can just go ahead, you'll be ok. We should just accept that every game can have 2 categories and be done with it. Everyone cool with weapon glitch (i.e. everything) allowed vs everything except weapon glitch allowed?

Sounds good to me! I will continue to try and give updates as I go along. Currently I will be spending quite a while trying to plan out the rest of the run before I actually start working on it. I plan to post test versions of each segment on youtube for anyone who would be interested in watching them to give me feedback and look for errors in my play or things I might overlook. Thanks to people that have given me help so far and I definitely will need more to run this game with quality and consistency.

GoldenHarvest

2009-05-20 07:10:14 pm

Here is a little test video I made of the Wall Glitch. It is not perfect by any means, but gives you an idea of how it would work in a run.

.

Sometime in the next couple of days I am going to post test videos of the first couple of segments for fun and to get your guys input.

Hattori HANZo

2009-05-21 07:06:09 am

contraddicted

I'm pretty sure using the wall glitch could make some things at least way easier.
I am not sure and do not remember the game well enough to say if it is useful to spend 5 minutes leveling. But it should be possible to use the glitch as a sidestep in some areas. IIRC, somewhere in the city on the sunken continent is someone who sells you walnuts and there are enemies running around, that like to cast wall. So before passing by the dealer, you could easily gain some levels without loosing too much time.

Of course at that point you are far already and I'n not sure how much some additional levels help you at that magic wood\volcano. It could be way faster there to let two party members die and run through on your own and as you already have that magic-sucking spell, having more MP is not really a timesaver.

Earlier in the game some time could pay off by doing less shopping for nuts. Also the evade increase could make it easier to run through some areas without getting stopped by enemy hits. However, how much time levels could save is pretty much dependant on how much more damage you deal, I guess.

Judging by guts, it should save time in the end or at least make things way easier without taking much longer.

I'm pretty sure using the wall glitch could make some things at least way easier.
I am not sure and do not remember the game well enough to say if it is useful to spend 5 minutes leveling. But it should be possible to use the glitch as a sidestep in some areas. IIRC, somewhere in the city on the sunken continent is someone who sells you walnuts and there are enemies running around, that like to cast wall. So before passing by the dealer, you could easily gain some levels without loosing too much time.

Of course at that point you are far already and I'n not sure how much some additional levels help you at that magic wood\volcano. It could be way faster there to let two party members die and run through on your own and as you already have that magic-sucking spell, having more MP is not really a timesaver.

Earlier in the game some time could pay off by doing less shopping for nuts. Also the evade increase could make it easier to run through some areas without getting stopped by enemy hits. However, how much time levels could save is pretty much dependant on how much more damage you deal, I guess.

Judging by guts, it should save time in the end or at least make things way easier without taking much longer.

DoubleThink

Edit history:

DoubleThink: 2009-05-22 01:30:01 am

2009-05-22 12:36:20 am

There's a word for that

Huh, I thought the girl needed to cast Wall for it to work. And yeah that MP boost is huge, I can't see how that wouldn't be worth it.

EDIT: It also looks like a great place to level Salamando, because I think the next boss after that is Lime Slime, and in Seiken's run he had to be at Lv3 to even scratch it.

@ EvilJogga: The point of the exp glitch is to try and avoid needing Magic Absorb, because it takes time to work and needs to be constantly levelled in order to remain effective.

Crow!

2009-09-15 08:24:18 am

What's that gemma?

Just to let people know, I'm also working on a weapon charge glitch enabled run for this. Right now I'm doing a practice run, and I'm just past Jabberwocky at about 1 hour. Admittedly I'm on the NTSC version rather than PAL, but so far I'm between 15 and 20 minutes faster than Seiken's run, and I know there's room for improvement in a few of my sections.

Quick newbie question: To do the weapon charge glitch more easily with only a single person playing, I'm using the Super Advantage controller as the "second player." I'm not using the turbo functions on that controller, it's just easier to push buttons on two controllers at once when one has really big buttons and an easy to nudge joystick. Is this allowed, or must all controllers used be basic SNES controllers?

RaneofSOTN

2009-09-15 10:28:32 am

I want off the ride....

Quote from Crow!:

Just to let people know, I'm also working on a weapon charge glitch enabled run for this. Right now I'm doing a practice run, and I'm just past Jabberwocky at about 1 hour. Admittedly I'm on the NTSC version rather than PAL, but so far I'm between 15 and 20 minutes faster than Seiken's run, and I know there's room for improvement in a few of my sections.

Quick newbie question: To do the weapon charge glitch more easily with only a single person playing, I'm using the Super Awesome SNES BASIC controller as the "second player." ~~I'm not using the turbo functions on that controller, it's just easier to push buttons on two controllers at once when one has really big buttons and an easy to nudge joystick.~~ I am enjoying the use of the basic SNES controllers!

Fixed!
You can use the controller, just don't use the functionality.. how are we to know the difference? Sadly there is no tell for "HE USED A TURBO CONTROLLER BUT DIDN'T USE THE FUNCTIONALITY... so it was a controller DAMN!"

[quote="Crow!"]
Just to let people know, I'm also working on a weapon charge glitch enabled run for this.  Right now I'm doing a practice run, and I'm just past Jabberwocky at about 1 hour.  Admittedly I'm on the NTSC version rather than PAL, but so far I'm between 15 and 20 minutes faster than Seiken's run, and I know there's room for improvement in a few of my sections.

Quick newbie question: To do the weapon charge glitch more easily with only a single person playing, I'm using the Super [b]Awesome SNES BASIC[/b] controller as the "second player."  [s]I'm not using the turbo functions on that controller, it's just easier to push buttons on two controllers at once when one has really big buttons and an easy to nudge joystick. [/s] [i]I am enjoying the use of the basic SNES controllers![/i]
[/quote]

Fixed!
You can use the controller, just don't use the functionality.. how are we to know the difference? Sadly there is no tell for "HE USED A TURBO CONTROLLER BUT DIDN'T USE THE FUNCTIONALITY... so it was a controller DAMN!"

Crow!

2009-09-15 03:45:37 pm

What's that gemma?

Lol. Thanks for the clarification.

Update: some people (including TASers, apparently) have been having trouble scoring a charged weapon glitch hit on Springbeak. It took me a while too but here's one solution:

Charge up spear, have player 2 swap sword with you then take it back, charge spear up to absurd levels (normal glitch). NOW have player two equip the bow and arrow, then hand you the bow and arrow. As long as you have no bow experience, the charging will now stop. This is actually a good thing, because the next step is to camp at a particular tile of the map, facing downward, and wait for springbeak to jump to his favorite spot between the two platforms. Release the arrows and he dies.

The tile to stand on is the rightmost downward sloped tall grass tile on the top side of the patch of grass above the left platform. If that description doesn't make sense, just experiment and go as far down as you can without colliding with Springbeak when he's in position.

The bow and arrow behave strangely with the CWG. Up to a certain charge level they get absurd range, but past like level 15 or so they don't go anywhere. The overcharged arrows WILL hit the spot right in front of you, though, and this means that you 1. hit Springbeak's body because you're so close, 2. don't hit his legs because the arrows don't go through him (arrows are good for hitting springbeak even in casual runs), and 3. don't move forward at all and so don't take damage from Springbeak's absurdly large hitbox.

Almost all attempts to attack Springbeak with a charged spear fail at either points 2 or 3 above, as the CWG gives you an essentially random attacking animation, and any hit to both Springbeak and his legs will be negated.

Lol.  Thanks for the clarification.

Update: some people (including TASers, apparently) have been having trouble scoring a charged weapon glitch hit on Springbeak.  It took me a while too but here's one solution:

Charge up spear, have player 2 swap sword with you then take it back, charge spear up to absurd levels (normal glitch).  NOW have player two equip the bow and arrow, then hand you the bow and arrow.  As long as you have no bow experience, the charging will now stop.  This is actually a good thing, because the next step is to camp at a particular tile of the map, facing downward, and wait for springbeak to jump to his favorite spot between the two platforms.  Release the arrows and he dies.

The tile to stand on is the rightmost downward sloped tall grass tile on the top side of the patch of grass above the left platform.  If that description doesn't make sense, just experiment and go as far down as you can without colliding with Springbeak when he's in position.

The bow and arrow behave strangely with the CWG.  Up to a certain charge level they get absurd range, but past like level 15 or so they don't go anywhere.  The overcharged arrows WILL hit the spot right in front of you, though, and this means that you 1. hit Springbeak's body because you're so close, 2. don't hit his legs because the arrows don't go through him (arrows are good for hitting springbeak even in casual runs), and 3. don't move forward at all and so don't take damage from Springbeak's absurdly large hitbox.

Almost all attempts to attack Springbeak with a charged spear fail at either points 2 or 3 above, as the CWG gives you an essentially random attacking animation, and any hit to both Springbeak and his legs will be negated.

Enhasa

2009-09-28 02:39:23 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Hey guys, we (me and Mike and some other guy TBD) will be running SOM live at the SDA Magfest charity event. This will be a 3p SS run. This can't be overemphasized: this is live, so we only get one shot. So we're not looking to set a new record or something, just not die and embarrass ourselves (luckily, this probably won't happen past Spiky Tiger).

Unfortunately, me and Mike haven't really played this game in a long time, so we need help with coming up with a good, safe route. Please help us out! Glitches and all that stuff are allowed! Please be as specific as you like. Don't assume we know anything, treat us like idiots. Explain the glitches in detail. Of special importance, at least for now, is the pre-magic route. Is it worth taking the long detour to avoid having to save the girl from werewolves? My guess is no but maybe it is.

Helpful stuff would be level targets, what to buy, who to level up on, stuff like that. But really anything. Thanks a bunch!

Hattori HANZo

2009-09-28 07:33:41 pm

contraddicted

Quote from Enhasa:

Is it worth taking the long detour to avoid having to save the girl from werewolves? My guess is no but maybe it is.

I'd say ditch the bitch. If you don't wanna lose her, you have to run the whole way to the woods, find the barrier you need the axe for and go to the dwarfs' village. Running halfway through the woods twice is most likely not worth having the girl at your side. The werewolves aren't THAT bad Wink

And I think you should practice using heal\restore HP magic (don't know the english spell names) to avoid taking (lethal) damage. If you cast a healing spell at the right time, damge will not get registered or you will regain HP instead of getting hit, or you will first regain HP and then take hit, thus avoid dying. This might also be a good use for herbs and bonbons in the pre-magic part of the game. (YOU said "treat us like idiots"! :p)

An intersting point will be that you won't be able to stack magic, if you play with 3P. This might make some boss fights a lot harder, as you can't keep the bosses stunned with casting magic.
I am really looking forward to this!

[quote="Enhasa"]
Is it worth taking the long detour to avoid having to save the girl from werewolves? My guess is no but maybe it is.
[/quote]

I'd say ditch the bitch. If you don't wanna lose her, you have to run the whole way to the woods, find the barrier you need the axe for and go to the dwarfs' village. Running halfway through the woods twice is most likely not worth having the girl at your side. The werewolves aren't THAT bad ;)

And I think you should practice using heal\restore HP magic (don't know the english spell names) to avoid taking (lethal) damage. If you cast a healing spell at the right time, damge will not get registered or you will regain HP instead of getting hit, or you will first regain HP and then take hit, thus avoid dying. This might also be a good use for herbs and bonbons in the pre-magic part of the game. (YOU said "treat us like idiots"! :p)

An intersting point will be that you won't be able to stack magic, if you play with 3P. This might make some boss fights a lot harder, as you can't keep the bosses stunned with casting magic.
I am really looking forward to this!