requesting a rule change for the metroid prime series [locked]

petrie911

2010-07-16 10:03:19 pm

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

Specifically relating to Metroid Prime, would this also mean a 21% run can't obsolete a 22% run?

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2010-07-16 10:36:01 pm

2010-07-16 10:24:32 pm

Weegee Time

Alright guys, there's a rule on the site for this, amazingly enough. It's right in the FAQ. If a run beats a time, it can still be rejected because of poor play quality. So, if a "secret worlds" run is faster on time, but is evidently played worse, we would reject it. If it is played at the same quality or better, it should be accepted hands down. It's the same principle used for every other run, there's no reason it shouldn't apply here as well.

There, no need to worry about some kid coming off the street and obsoleting your run because he can pull off a skip but can't hit the broad side of a barn. You simply treat it like you would any other run submitted to this site. This is simple.

Miles

2010-07-17 02:03:44 am

A lot of the issue is about obsoleting a segmented run with a single segment.

MASTER-88

2010-07-17 03:38:03 am

Master-88

Quote:

Kharay1977 and MASTER-88: shut up

I love you Mike.

But im have to with good reason say this. If secret worlds will obsoleted (no SW category) I´ll hope All glitch runs will be same category Like Megaman 2 & Iron Sword run. Thats mean glitch run will be only allowed into site.

http://speeddemosarchive.com/MegaMan2.html

http://speeddemosarchive.com/WizardsAndWarriors2.html

There is two good example with this. If secret wolrds are allowed obsoleted no SW runs why there is seperate category game like this? Both runs are less glitchy than SW runs in Prime series. And thats fact Mike not know nothing about GCN Metroids. I´ll hope hear Nate opinion with this.

arkarian

Edit history:

arkarian: 2010-07-17 03:48:57 am

2010-07-17 03:40:12 am

gamelogs.org

Quote from Miles.:

A lot of the issue is about obsoleting a segmented run with a single segment.

it is? there's never been a problem with this at sda - it's expected that if a ss run is faster than a segmented run, the segmented run will be taken down. this has happened several times in the past.

edit: whoops, i didn't realize you were responding to rakuen in particular. my fault.

ExplodingCabbage

2010-07-17 04:46:30 am

Sorry to drag on a topic that has already run its course with a pointless post, but there's something I've been curious about for a while now from the radix days before I joined SDA:

How was OOB even defined back when OOB wasn't allowed? It seems to me like a fairly subjective label that would require LOTS of technical rulings to properly define (if I wanted to I could list half a dozen hypothetical situations right now where I wouldn't be sure whether something counted as OOB or not). Were there often disputes about whether tricks counted as OOB or not?

mike89

2010-07-17 06:16:37 am

SEGA Junkie

It was hard to nail down, there was heaps of running certain tricks by Radix to make sure that certain tricks were legit which I'm sure he didn't enjoy all that much, but that he did anyway to make sure all the runs came in under the rules.

However, one runner of a certain popular game whose name I will not mention, had his run rejected by Radix because of a part in one segment where he clipped out of bounds. As far as I can remember, the story goes that he thought it was okay because when he showed the move in question (I don't think it was even a glitch) in a separate video, it was executed "properly" which avoided the clip out of bounds.

So yeah, it certainly had the potential to be messy, but it got SDA through the tricky early years so I guess you'd have to say the policy was largely justified.

Rakuen

2010-07-17 09:21:00 am

Weegee Time

Well, here's another idea to add to it. While the older runs might not be hosted on SDA anymore, they still stay up on the Internet Archive, yes? Why not make a Hall of Fame section of the site for past runs on SDA? It'd be good to keep a history on the record books, and I'm sure there's some people out there who would like to see the evolution of speedrunning a game.

Heidrage

2010-07-17 09:50:10 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

Quote from Rakuen:

Well, here's another idea to add to it. While the older runs might not be hosted on SDA anymore, they still stay up on the Internet Archive, yes? Why not make a Hall of Fame section of the site for past runs on SDA? It'd be good to keep a history on the record books, and I'm sure there's some people out there who would like to see the evolution of speedrunning a game.

I second this idea

nate

2010-07-17 08:46:42 pm

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Were there often disputes about whether tricks counted as OOB or not?

yes.

one interesting tidbit is that oob was probably impossible in 2d games due to its definition coming from secret worlds in metroid prime. hard to say what the bounding box for a room is in a 2d game.

Lag.Com

2010-07-17 11:43:54 pm

sda loyalist

Funnily enough I thought the line was drawn at Metroid 2's "select glitch" where you can go around glitched levels that are generated from random crap in memory. I'm glad we don't have this kind of meaningless elitism anymore and can go ahead with runs that push the boundaries of gameplay as well as skill.

DarthVenom

2010-07-18 08:23:33 am

This grandfather clause idea appeals to me. Not sure about the "Grandfather run can't get obsoleted" part, but these are the kinks that get worked out as it moves toward the application process.

As for OoB/Secret Worlds themselves, I personally find them ugly as sin to watch, but I would have a very hard time justifying barring them on those grounds (same as the murder beam in Super Metroid, really), and I don't want to even try, because that would devalue the blood, sweat and tears (well, hopefully just sweat) that has been put into these runs. I would have no problem watching a Metroid Prime run with OoB skips, if the run was played above and beyond Zoid's records (if that's even possible at this point, anyway).

Otter

2010-07-18 09:56:29 am

I have noticed there is some (probably unavoidable) inconsistency in policy between old games and new. I assume lots of these categories for old games exist because there was a time when the majority of runners were more conservative regarding glitches that were "too good," even if they weren't that good after all.

A few recently-posted runs demonstrate my point, I think. Seth Glass's new 27:49 with zips stands alongside his old (and excellent) 29:28 without, presumably because there's a long tradition of those being separate categories for that game. I'm not exactly complaining -- it means I can still watch both runs. On the other hand, you have Crysis, a game where a philosophically-similar trick (flying over the map in an unintended way) saves a huge amount of time, but this run as it's posted isn't qualified by "with skips" or any variant thereof. As the first runner to claim a time for this game, xsite gets to set the bar where he wants, and luckily for us he chose to set the bar high.

This is more of an observation than a complaint. I don't think there's any way to enforce "consistency" (whatever that would mean) across the site without mindlessly axing a lot of good runs that nobody wants to see axed. That said, what we can do for the future is encourage new runners to think like xsite and focus on running their games as quickly as possible, without worrying too much about category. If we had slapped xsite with a "with skips" on his great run, we'd be showing that going as fast as possible just gets you shunted into a special category, while simultaneously encouraging someone else to do a slower run that could still appear on the site. Fortunately, that's not what happened. I like this new direction SDA policy is taking, simply because it's a better reflection of SDA philosophy: fastest time wins.

I have noticed there is some (probably unavoidable) inconsistency in policy between old games and new.  I assume lots of these categories for old games exist because there was a time when the majority of runners were more conservative regarding glitches that were "too good," even if they weren't that good after all.

A few recently-posted runs demonstrate my point, I think.  Seth Glass's new 27:49 with zips stands alongside his old (and excellent) 29:28 without, presumably because there's a long tradition of those being separate categories for that game.  I'm not exactly complaining -- it means I can still watch both runs.  On the other hand, you have Crysis, a game where a philosophically-similar trick (flying over the map in an unintended way) saves a huge amount of time, but this run as it's posted isn't qualified by "with skips" or any variant thereof.  As the first runner to claim a time for this game, xsite gets to set the bar where he wants, and luckily for us he chose to set the bar high.

This is more of an observation than a complaint.  I don't think there's any way to enforce "consistency" (whatever that would mean) across the site without mindlessly axing a lot of good runs that nobody wants to see axed.  That said, what we can do for the future is encourage new runners to think like xsite and focus on running their games as quickly as possible, without worrying too much about category.  If we had slapped xsite with a "with skips" on his great run, we'd be showing that going as fast as possible just gets you shunted into a special category, while simultaneously encouraging someone else to do a slower run that could still appear on the site.  Fortunately, that's not what happened.  I like this new direction SDA policy is taking, simply because it's a better reflection of SDA philosophy: fastest time wins.

UchihaSasuke

2010-07-18 02:58:11 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

another thing that i just thought of, why are the fastest runs the ones labeled with special terms like "uses OoB/glitch x/etc."? couldn't we do the opposite and label the slower run as "doesn't use OoB/glitch x/etc." and keep the fastest run just as "fastest time"?

Miles

2010-07-18 03:01:18 pm

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

another thing that i just thought of, why are the fastest runs the ones labeled with special terms like "uses OoB/glitch x/etc."? couldn't we do the opposite and label the slower run as "doesn't use OoB/glitch x/etc." and keep the fastest run just as "fastest time"?

I thought about this the other day and agree completely.

DJGrenola

2010-07-18 03:14:50 pm

guffaw

Mike, just take both my runs down now.

Axel Ryman

2010-07-18 03:44:23 pm

We all scream for Eyes Cream

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

another thing that i just thought of, why are the fastest runs the ones labeled with special terms like "uses OoB/glitch x/etc."? couldn't we do the opposite and label the slower run as "doesn't use OoB/glitch x/etc." and keep the fastest run just as "fastest time"?

I think it's because most people would think when seeing a speedrun of a game that it has no such thing in it. Remember we do get a lot of people onto the site, and there aren't that many who would know of such glitches/exploits. Look at Pokemon Red/Blue. If someone told me there was a speedrun of it, I'd expect it to be from beginning to end with no insane glitching like there is in the Blue run that lists using such exploits. I do however see your point, so I think it would be better to just take the middle ground. List the one using any OoB/glitch x/etc as such and list the other one as not using them.

As an extra, albeit requiring a bit of work that might not be wanted, maybe a link to the game's Strategy Wiki page could be added on the page above/below the run listings. I mean I checked the Metroid Prime page and it could work. It doesn't need to be done for all runs, just those that have OoB/large skip glitches like the Prime series, Megaman 2, Zelda(Obviously), and Pokemon Blue.

Quote from DJGrenola:

Mike, just take both my runs down now.

I hate you for saying such a thing. Cry

Not really but now I gotta go get it again!

[quote="UchihaSasuke"]
another thing that i just thought of, why are the fastest runs the ones labeled with special terms like "uses OoB/glitch x/etc."? couldn't we do the opposite and label the slower run as "doesn't use OoB/glitch x/etc." and keep the fastest run just as "fastest time"?
[/quote]

I think it's because most people would think when seeing a speedrun of a game that it has no such thing in it. Remember we do get a lot of people onto the site, and there aren't that many who would know of such glitches/exploits. Look at Pokemon Red/Blue. If someone told me there was a speedrun of it, I'd expect it to be from beginning to end with no insane glitching like there is in the Blue run that lists using such exploits.  I do however see your point, so I think it would be better to just take the middle ground. List the one using any OoB/glitch x/etc as such and list the other one as not using them.

As an extra, albeit requiring a bit of work that might not be wanted, maybe a link to the game's Strategy Wiki page could be added on the page above/below the run listings. I mean I checked the Metroid Prime page and it could work. It doesn't need to be done for all runs, just those that have OoB/large skip glitches like the Prime series, Megaman 2, Zelda(Obviously), and Pokemon Blue.

[quote="DJGrenola"]
Mike, just take both my runs down now.
[/quote]

I hate you for saying such a thing.  :'( [color=black]Not really but now I gotta go get it again![/color]

Miles

2010-07-18 04:01:08 pm

Quote from Axel Ryman:

I think it's because most people would think when seeing a speedrun of a game that it has no such thing in it. Remember we do get a lot of people onto the site, and there aren't that many who would know of such glitches/exploits. Look at Pokemon Red/Blue. If someone told me there was a speedrun of it, I'd expect it to be from beginning to end with no insane glitching like there is in the Blue run that lists using such exploits.

That makes no sense; I'm sure there's a lot that people "wouldn't expect" in a speedrun other than those glitches.

Axel Ryman

2010-07-18 04:15:51 pm

We all scream for Eyes Cream

What I meant was outside the game's boundaries.

Paraxade

2010-07-18 04:35:11 pm

Quote from DJGrenola:

Mike, just take both my runs down now.

Why are you asking for your runs taken down when the consensus and official decision is your run would stay up? :s

Arrow

2010-07-18 06:28:06 pm

Now a hit show on the CW

Quote from DJGrenola:

Mike, just take both my runs down now.

I understand how frustrating it must be to have gone through all of the effort of making a run conform to rules that are now being changed, but don't you think that the more mature way to look at the situation would be to consider it an opportunity to finally prove what your run could have been back then? On the other hand, if Miles's run ends up being better than your secret worlds run would have been, then your run would have been beaten eventually anyway.

New glitches/tricks are discovered, rules get changed, these things happen. I've always been of the same opinion as Radix (and a few others in this thread): I come to this site to see (and contribute) fast runs. My TJ&E2 run is about to be obsoleted by a new run which uses a level warp that wasn't known when I originally made my run (it also has far superior play, but let's pretend for the sake of argument that the level warp was the only major difference). Am I disappointed that my run is going to be taken down? Yes, but I'm thrilled at seeing a game I know and love be cleared faster than I've ever been able to manage, and eager to try to retake the record, utilizing the new tricks that were discovered.

[quote="DJGrenola"]
Mike, just take both my runs down now.
[/quote]
I understand how frustrating it must be to have gone through all of the effort of making a run conform to rules that are now being changed, but don't you think that the more mature way to look at the situation would be to consider it an opportunity to finally prove what your run could have been back then? On the other hand, if Miles's run ends up being better than your secret worlds run would have been, then your run would have been beaten eventually anyway.

New glitches/tricks are discovered, rules get changed, these things happen. I've always been of the same opinion as Radix (and a few others in this thread): I come to this site to see (and contribute) fast runs. My TJ&E2 run is about to be obsoleted by a new run which uses a level warp that wasn't known when I originally made my run (it also has far superior play, but let's pretend for the sake of argument that the level warp was the only major difference). Am I disappointed that my run is going to be taken down? Yes, but I'm thrilled at seeing a game I know and love be cleared faster than I've ever been able to manage, and eager to try to retake the record, utilizing the new tricks that were discovered.

Miles

2010-07-18 06:51:26 pm

Quote from Arrow:

On the other hand, if Miles's run ends up being better than your secret worlds run would have been,

Just want to address this quickly: A lot more is known about SWs in speedrunning than was known back then. A run done in 2008 wouldn't have skipped Quadraxis, for example, and I'm sure the wallcrawls would generally be slower overall. However, this is probably directly related to the fact that SDA didn't allow them...

MPzoid

(user is banned)

MPzoid

Edit history:

MPzoid: 2010-07-20 01:56:40 pm

2010-07-20 08:39:52 am

Mario shrimp vs. The Fuzionator

--

bartendorsparky

2010-07-20 09:06:31 am

zoid: check your PMs

mikwuyma

2010-07-20 09:13:29 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from MPzoid:

i second that!! take my runs down Mike! all of them! nut just the "ugly" 1:03 but ALL OF THEM! that's an order. those are my runs and i can do with them whatever i want. and that's an order, take them down! you think i need SDA? i show you how much i need sda. Take them down!

I'll take them down if you'll stop whining on our forums. Sound fair?

Quote:

@DjGrenola: you don't need to take your runs down! they want to grandfather your runs! it's not your runs which they want to put down. it's my run which they want to put down, because they love me so much. i love you too.

Uh, who is they? I didn't know we had a anti-Zoid Illuminati cult at SDA. I guess I don't pay enough attention to the forums. Tongue

Quote:

And Sparky:
go on! finish the run and beat my run. hower you don't need to beat my run. i want my runs to be put down!!
you truly are unthankful sparky. do you know why i saved your frigate escape record and didn't submit my 4:30:65 to sda? because i wanted to save your record at sda. i didn't want you to disappear from this page. because you were my friend. and this is how you repay me? do you remember sparky: in summer 2008 (at the time when you were pissed by the m2k2 community) you told me at m2k2: "you are one of the few good people left in this community and don't ever forget that." so this is how you treat a good person?

Yeah sparky, quit being such a jerk, trying to add a new, better run to SDA. You're even using new tricks discovered? Have you no shame?!?

Wait Zoid, you could submit a better newer escape time? And be just as unthankful as sparky? Geez, that would be as unthankful as Frezy_Man beating my Mega Man X run. Oh wait, he already did that, and we're still good friends.

Quote:

however i will continue my new metroid prime any% no secret world speedrun which is in the work and i will upload it to archive.or myself and nobody can prevent me from uploading it at internet archive because internet archive is public, it's available for everyone. and this also means, no competition with sparky. i will work on it whenever i have time and i won't stress myself. i am definitely not going to submit any more speedruns to sda. i already told m2k2 that i don't need them, and now i'm telling you sda, i don't need you as well. and jfyi, there are a dozen other record pages on the world wide web.

But Zoid, we need you. If you leave, we'll only have speedruns of 581 games.

Quote:

and to all you guys (nate, mike, sparky, tomatobob, arkarian, etc...): you think you've won this battle on earth, but you've not won the "whole" battle.

World War 3: War of Primes

Quote:

how long do you think you will live on this earth? maybe 50 years? maybe 60 years?

I'm going to aim for at least 70 years, life expectancy is higher now than it ever was. You're not supposed to speedrun life. Wink

Quote:

and then you'll die and in after life you will definitely not be the winners but you will belong to the losers because that's what happens to unjust people. yeah i know you don't believe in that shit... and i am insane, stupid for believing that...blah blah.. you don't need to tell me what you think. i know your opinions already.

Gluttony, avarice, lust, pride, etc., You're still okay. New Metroid Prime records, now that's a one-way ticket to hell.

Quote:

and because you keep being mean with Master-88: Master-88 is my best friend on the internet and he is definitely more valuable than all of you pieces of shit here!!

He's our best friend too. Romscout even wants him for president. Grin

Quote:

if you don't intend to change enjoy the rest of your lives, because you probably won't get another chance.

I'll change enjoy the moment you stop being a little bitch.

[quote="MPzoid"]
i second that!! take my runs down Mike! all of them! nut just the "ugly" 1:03 but ALL OF THEM! that's an order. those are my runs and i can do with them whatever i want. and that's an order, take them down! you think i need SDA? i show you how much i need sda. Take them down![/quote]

I'll take them down if you'll stop whining on our forums. Sound fair?

[quote]@DjGrenola: you don't need to take your runs down! they want to grandfather your runs! it's not your runs which they want to put down. it's my run which they want to put down, because they love me so much. i love you too.[/quote]

Uh, who is they? I didn't know we had a anti-Zoid Illuminati cult at SDA. I guess I don't pay enough attention to the forums. :P

[quote]And Sparky:
go on! finish the run and beat my run. hower you don't need to beat my run. i want my runs to be put down!!
you truly are unthankful sparky. do you know why i saved your frigate escape record and didn't submit my 4:30:65 to sda? because i wanted to save your record at sda. i didn't want you to disappear from this page. because you were my friend. and this is how you repay me? do you remember sparky: in summer 2008 (at the time when you were pissed by the m2k2 community) you told me at m2k2: "you are one of the few good people left in this community and don't ever forget that." so this is how you treat a good person?[/quote]

Yeah sparky, quit being such a jerk, trying to add a new, better run to SDA. You're even using new tricks discovered? Have you no shame?!?

Wait Zoid, you could submit a better newer escape time? And be just as unthankful as sparky? Geez, that would be as unthankful as Frezy_Man beating my Mega Man X run. Oh wait, he already did that, and we're still good friends.

[quote]however i will continue my new metroid prime any% no secret world speedrun which is in the work and i will upload it to archive.or myself and nobody can prevent me from uploading it at internet archive because internet archive is public, it's available for everyone. and this also means, no competition with sparky. i will work on it whenever i have time and i won't stress myself. i am definitely not going to submit any more speedruns to sda. i already told m2k2 that i don't need them, and now i'm telling you sda, i don't need you as well. and jfyi, there are a dozen other record pages on the world wide web.[/quote]

But Zoid, we need you. If you leave, we'll only have speedruns of  [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/gamelist.html]581 games[/url].

[quote]and to all you guys (nate, mike, sparky, tomatobob, arkarian, etc...): you think you've won this battle on earth, but you've not won the "whole" battle.[/quote]

World War 3: War of Primes

[quote] how long do you think you will live on this earth? maybe 50 years? maybe 60 years? [/quote]

I'm going to aim for at least 70 years, life expectancy is higher now than it ever was. You're not supposed to speedrun life. ;)

[quote]and then you'll die and in after life you will definitely not be the winners but you will belong to the losers because that's what happens to unjust people. yeah i know you don't believe in that shit... and i am insane, stupid for believing that...blah blah.. you don't need to tell me what you think. i know your opinions already.[/quote]

Gluttony, avarice, lust, pride, etc., You're still okay. New Metroid Prime records, now that's a one-way ticket to hell.

[quote]and because you keep being mean with Master-88: Master-88 is my best friend on the internet and he is definitely more valuable than all of you pieces of shit here!![/quote]

He's our best friend too. Romscout even wants him for president. ;D

[quote]if you don't intend to change enjoy the rest of your lives, because you probably won't get another chance.
[/quote]

I'll change enjoy the moment you stop being a little bitch.