requesting a rule change for the metroid prime series [locked]

2010-07-20 08:10:47 pm

Formerly known as Skullboy

I think the issue might be more about how the run has/will be obsoleted and not simply that someone's had a better time.

I'll be honest, finding older runs is easy even if we don't hear about the former runners. If people would simply go to the older news section and do some research and then find the run on Archive.org. Someone mentioned having an obsoleted run link like TASvideos does, and I think that is a great idea. I have spent lots of time watching the older runs starting with Nate's 100% of Metroid Prime in 1:37. Do the former runners need to be recognized more? I say yes, but it's not like we can't do some independent research here either.

Vugmer

2010-07-20 08:17:10 pm

Cigar Man

Quote from Paraxade:

I support the idea of having a hall of fame-type thing. People who've contributed in the past deserve some recognition even after their run's been obsoleted. Right now everything about them and their run just disappears forever the second the new one goes up.

I actually like that SDA banishes obsoleted runs to archive.org without leaving any official mention that the run ever existed. SDA's new motto: "Have the best run or get the fuck out."

Rakuen

2010-07-20 08:25:03 pm

Weegee Time

New thread to split the discussion so it's not lost in a jumble of cross talk.

Quote from Skullboy:

I think the issue might be more about how the run has/will be obsoleted and not simply that someone's had a better time.

And in my opinion, the how doesn't matter. If the run would be obsoleted for any other reason, there wouldn't even be a discussion. This thread wouldn't exist. That's why I've said we should just treat every run the same way with a very simple criterion. If you can accomplish it in the game without manually altering it or utilizing cheating devices/codes, then it should be allowed.

Now in 10 seconds someone will come up with some example to throw the criterion right out the window. Curse of the Internet, I tell you...

Worn_Traveler

2010-07-20 08:29:17 pm

Formerly known as Skullboy

Quote from Rakuen:

New thread to split the discussion so it's not lost in a jumble of cross talk.

Quote from Skullboy:

I think the issue might be more about how the run has/will be obsoleted and not simply that someone's had a better time.

And in my opinion, the how doesn't matter. If the run would be obsoleted for any other reason, there wouldn't even be a discussion. This thread wouldn't exist. That's why I've said we should just treat every run the same way with a very simple criterion. If you can accomplish it in the game without manually altering it or utilizing cheating devices/codes, then it should be allowed.

Now in 10 seconds someone will come up with some example to throw the criterion right out the window. Curse of the Internet, I tell you...

But how will that critertion be defined. Will we accept dungeonless runs of OOT but not accept LTTP though it's the same idea? Perhaps combining the low/any% categories for all games is the only way.

Miles

2010-07-20 08:30:27 pm

Isn't LttP not allowed solely because it requires hardware modification? (up+down or whatever)

Worn_Traveler

2010-07-20 08:32:32 pm

Formerly known as Skullboy

I just went for the most extreme example, because that's where things could eventually go, though they may not.

Radix

2010-07-20 08:54:11 pm

I'm addicted to games

Quote from Skullboy:

the older runs starting with Nate's 100% of Metroid Prime in 1:37.

*cough*

Miles

2010-07-20 08:58:29 pm

I have to say that that's a great reason for having a list of old runs. >_>

bartendorsparky

2010-07-20 08:59:06 pm

radix your old any% run was pretty cool too.

DJGrenola

2010-07-20 09:44:31 pm

guffaw

It's hard to put into words because it's a complicated issue and yes, some of it is very personal, and of course anything based on personal feelings is not going to stand logical scrutiny. Especially here, where decency and respect have always taken second place to telling people to go and fuck themselves.

I'm tired of this judge, jury and executioner attitude. What about that Deku Tree fiasco, where an OoT glitch got the green light, and then the run was ultimately rejected for OoB violation after its completion? What about the Duke Nukem 3D runs that were stalemated for about two months, because Mike accepted them and then I refused to post them on account of mysterious teleporting, which was in clear violation of the (then current) rules? What about Scarlet's Castlevania: NitM runs as Richter and Maria? They didn't get submitted because Radix changed the rules to make real names mandatory, when a bunch of anonymously-submitted runs were already on the site. These are just examples off the top of my head from the year I spent running this place. There were others, I promise you.

None of these instances were the fault of the runners. Yet it was the runners who were punished for them. Is that fair?

On IRC, Sparky mentioned that he wanted to get the SW and non-SW categories on SDA merged because "otherwise, Prime is dead in the water". This was basically a covert admission of two things: a) that he wasn't interested in beating the existing run on its own terms (presumably because it would be too difficult), and b) that he wasn't satisfied with having secret worlds as a separate category. Seriously? "I can't beat this run, but I want my name to be the only one on the page, so I'm demanding a rule change"? Incredible. I hate to labour this point, but I had to put the Echoes 17% up on archive.org. I didn't complain about it once, because I respected the fact that SDA had a set of rules designed to appeal to a mass audience. And now, someone is kicking up a fuss about the indignity of having to share a game page with another category, one that at the time the incumbent run was completed was the only category allowed? Wow. And of course, everyone here loves the idea. Well, I'm calling it out: It's consummate bullshit.

Updating this site was not what I would call a barrel of fun. I had Radix barking orders at me one minute and telling me I'd carried them out incorrectly the next. I frequently got half way through an update and discovered that I was missing some vital piece of information which I should have been given by Mike, or that one of the videos from Nate was defective. I frequently had to pull updates because of other people's mistakes. I spent six months making a promo video to show at PAX, and upon its release I had to enjoy the likes of groobo telling me it was a pile of shit. Of course, in between scribbling polynomials on bits of paper and running raytraces, I had to carry on posting every single run that went up on this site. Some days I didn't even have time to eat. In return, I get just the same level of contempt as is shown to everyone else here. No favourites. Fastest time wins. My run does not have to be beaten fair and square. Get this: The timer -- the precise measuring device that should be this site's Bible -- doesn't count. Instead, people are waving their arms about and talking about "play quality", as if any of the people who are to verify Miles's SS have ever skipped the Grapple beam in Echoes like I have. What the fuck would they know about play quality? Make no mistake: Without my taking over updates, this site would have ceased to exist somewhere around 2006 or 2007. I now greatly regret saving it.

Who is going to stick up for all the people that this site has treated unjustly? Until now, there was nobody. No court of appeal, nothing even resembling fairness. We don't want your run; we have 500 games already; fuck off. But there are still a few of my possessions lying around on this site in important places. So, since I'm sufficiently embittered about this whole affair, and am still in a position to deny SDA some things that it wants, I am holding it accountable. Fuck you if you don't like it.

(P.S. I don't get why people are complaining about me asking for my runs to be taken down. I felt like I'd be making a statement while simultaneously doing everyone a favour. You can't obsolete controversially a run that isn't there any more, and 17% ceased to be low% some considerable time ago.)

It's hard to put into words because it's a complicated issue and yes, some of it is very personal, and of course anything based on personal feelings is not going to stand logical scrutiny. Especially here, where decency and respect have always taken second place to telling people to go and fuck themselves.

I'm tired of this judge, jury and executioner attitude. What about that Deku Tree fiasco, where an OoT glitch got the green light, and then the run was ultimately rejected for OoB violation after its completion? What about the Duke Nukem 3D runs that were stalemated for about two months, because Mike accepted them and then I refused to post them on account of mysterious teleporting, which was in clear violation of the (then current) rules? What about Scarlet's Castlevania: NitM runs as Richter and Maria? They didn't get submitted because Radix changed the rules to make real names mandatory, when a bunch of anonymously-submitted runs were already on the site. These are just examples off the top of my head from the year I spent running this place. There were others, I promise you.

None of these instances were the fault of the runners. Yet it was the runners who were punished for them. Is that fair?

On IRC, Sparky mentioned that he wanted to get the SW and non-SW categories on SDA merged because "otherwise, Prime is dead in the water". This was basically a covert admission of two things: a) that he wasn't interested in beating the existing run on its own terms (presumably because it would be too difficult), and b) that he wasn't satisfied with having secret worlds as a separate category. Seriously? "I can't beat this run, but I want my name to be the only one on the page, so I'm demanding a rule change"? Incredible. I hate to labour this point, but I had to put the Echoes 17% up on archive.org. I didn't complain about it once, because I respected the fact that SDA had a set of rules designed to appeal to a mass audience. And now, someone is kicking up a fuss about the indignity of having to share a game page with another category, one that at the time the incumbent run was completed was the only category allowed? Wow. And of course, everyone here loves the idea. Well, I'm calling it out: It's [i]consummate bullshit[/i].

Updating this site was not what I would call a barrel of fun. I had Radix barking orders at me one minute and telling me I'd carried them out incorrectly the next. I frequently got half way through an update and discovered that I was missing some vital piece of information which I should have been given by Mike, or that one of the videos from Nate was defective. I frequently had to pull updates because of other people's mistakes. I spent six months making a promo video to show at PAX, and upon its release I had to enjoy the likes of groobo telling me it was a pile of shit. Of course, in between scribbling polynomials on bits of paper and running raytraces, I had to carry on posting every single run that went up on this site. Some days [i]I didn't even have time to eat[/i]. In return, I get just the same level of contempt as is shown to everyone else here. No favourites. Fastest time wins. My run does not have to be beaten fair and square. Get this: The timer -- the precise measuring device that should be this site's Bible -- [i]doesn't count[/i]. Instead, people are waving their arms about and talking about "play quality", as if any of the people who are to verify Miles's SS have ever skipped the Grapple beam in Echoes like I have. What the fuck would they know about play quality? Make no mistake: Without my taking over updates, this site would have ceased to exist somewhere around 2006 or 2007. I now greatly regret saving it.

Who is going to stick up for all the people that this site has treated unjustly? Until now, there was nobody. No court of appeal, nothing even resembling fairness. We don't want your run; we have 500 games already; fuck off. But there are still a few of my possessions lying around on this site in important places. So, since I'm sufficiently embittered about this whole affair, and am still in a position to deny SDA some things that it wants, I am holding it accountable. Fuck you if you don't like it.

(P.S. I don't get why people are complaining about me asking for my runs to be taken down. I felt like I'd be making a statement while simultaneously doing everyone a favour. You can't obsolete controversially a run that isn't there any more, and 17% ceased to be low% some considerable time ago.)

Arrow

2010-07-20 09:46:23 pm

Now a hit show on the CW

Why not, instead of having a separate "hall of fame" page, just have a small "run history" section on each game's page (for games that have had past runs that were obsoleted) with links to the older runs on archive.org. TASvideos does this, and I'm really surprised it hasn't been done here yet. It's a great way to remember everyone's contributions that have lead to the current record.

Axel Ryman

2010-07-20 09:50:34 pm

We all scream for Eyes Cream

Quote from Arrow:

Why not, instead of having a separate "hall of fame" page, just have a small "run history" section on each game's page (for games that have had past runs that were obsoleted) with links to the older runs on archive.org. TASvideos does this, and I'm really surprised it hasn't been done here yet. It's a great way to remember everyone's contributions that have lead to the current record.

Wrong thread I'm guessing?

To be on topic, I see Grenola's point from his pov. I'm really not too big on these sort of discussions so I can't give much input on it however, so this most likely seems like a waste of a post.

Arrow

2010-07-20 09:58:57 pm

Now a hit show on the CW

I didn't even notice that someone else had started a thread on the hall of fame topic, I'll repost there.

Worn_Traveler

2010-07-20 10:12:44 pm

Formerly known as Skullboy

1. Thanks for the explanation DJGrenola.

2. I noticed that there's a lot of mention about TAS's recently (myself included) and I'm starting to get the feeling that the demands of a TAS, which are absurd by human skill alone are starting to overshadow the goals of SDA. Do we want runs that are fast? Yes, and that does require some skill. Do they need to look and feel perfect? No. If people want runs to be played at a TAS level, then things are not as well as they seem. Perhaps in our desire to be the fastest, we've let a machine ran system (to some extent) decide the rules for human ability.

3. At best, decide what is OOB and such for each game separately. At the extreme, make all future any% and low % runs the same. At the worst, mandate all games to use OOB, SW, and Glitches. I hope things never get like latter.

arkarian

2010-07-20 10:20:40 pm

gamelogs.org

in sparky's defense (so that no one actually believes what grenola said about him), he already did a test 1:02 but didn't finish the last segment because iirc he didn't think it was interesting enough to bother. also, i like to think i know him pretty well, and he's definitely not the type who cares about having his name posted on some site. dj might have a point with the dead in the water line, but i dunno, i think that's a little harsh an interpretation. it's hard to blame a runner for wanting to do something new with a game.

Vugmer

2010-07-20 10:48:46 pm

Cigar Man

Quote from DJGrenola:

Updating this site was not what I would call a barrel of fun. I had Radix barking orders at me one minute and telling me I'd carried them out incorrectly the next. I frequently got half way through an update and discovered that I was missing some vital piece of information which I should have been given by Mike, or that one of the videos from Nate was defective. I frequently had to pull updates because of other people's mistakes. I spent six months making a promo video to show at PAX, and upon its release I had to enjoy the likes of groobo telling me it was a pile of shit. Of course, in between scribbling polynomials on bits of paper and running raytraces, I had to carry on posting every single run that went up on this site. Some days I didn't even have time to eat. In return, I get just the same level of contempt as is shown to everyone else here. No favourites. Fastest time wins. My run does not have to be beaten fair and square. Get this: The timer -- the precise measuring device that should be this site's Bible -- doesn't count. Instead, people are waving their arms about and talking about "play quality", as if any of the people who are to verify Miles's SS have ever skipped the Grapple beam in Echoes like I have. What the fuck would they know about play quality? Make no mistake: Without my taking over updates, this site would have ceased to exist somewhere around 2006 or 2007. I now greatly regret saving it.

Classic victim role. Good stuff.

[quote="DJGrenola"]
Updating this site was not what I would call a barrel of fun. I had Radix barking orders at me one minute and telling me I'd carried them out incorrectly the next. I frequently got half way through an update and discovered that I was missing some vital piece of information which I should have been given by Mike, or that one of the videos from Nate was defective. I frequently had to pull updates because of other people's mistakes. I spent six months making a promo video to show at PAX, and upon its release I had to enjoy the likes of groobo telling me it was a pile of shit. Of course, in between scribbling polynomials on bits of paper and running raytraces, I had to carry on posting every single run that went up on this site. Some days [i]I didn't even have time to eat[/i]. In return, I get just the same level of contempt as is shown to everyone else here. No favourites. Fastest time wins. My run does not have to be beaten fair and square. Get this: The timer -- the precise measuring device that should be this site's Bible -- [i]doesn't count[/i]. Instead, people are waving their arms about and talking about "play quality", as if any of the people who are to verify Miles's SS have ever skipped the Grapple beam in Echoes like I have. What the fuck would they know about play quality? Make no mistake: Without my taking over updates, this site would have ceased to exist somewhere around 2006 or 2007. I now greatly regret saving it.
[/quote]

Classic victim role.  Good stuff.

Sir VG

2010-07-20 10:57:42 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from Radix:

Quote from Skullboy:

the older runs starting with Nate's 100% of Metroid Prime in 1:37.

*cough*

I know. How could he screw up remembering the greatest run in SDA history? It was the one that made SDA famous! And it brought COOL people to the site (mainly, me)!

playe

2010-07-21 01:16:37 am

How have I missed this thread for so long? Shocked

Anyway I'd thought that I'd just post my views seeing how I haven't been on a game page on SDA yet, and am currently working on my own MP run.

First off I can see that there would be a lot of problems having OoB's glitches, and non-OoB's glitches being in the same category because it wouldn't be fair to the runners that don't want to use/are opposed to using SW's, and IS.

Secondly I know that when I first watched runs of MP here on SDA I had no clue what SW's or IS were so I just looked at the runs that weren't labeled "This run is the fastest using OoB's glitches."

True this would conflict with certain games in which case OoB's glitches don't affect gametime that much (a few seconds to a minute at best), but for games like MP (where it still doesn't take up that much time) I think that the categories should still be separate.

I know that in the end it's all up to the admins, but I think that we should think about both the runners, and the people just getting introduced to speed-running.

How have I missed this thread for so long?  :o

Anyway I'd thought that I'd just post my views seeing how I haven't been on a game page on SDA yet, and am currently working on my own MP run.

First off I can see that there would be a lot of problems having OoB's glitches, and non-OoB's glitches being in the same category because it wouldn't be fair to the runners that don't want to use/are opposed to using SW's, and IS.

Secondly I know that when I first watched runs of MP here on SDA I had no clue what SW's or IS were so I just looked at the runs that weren't labeled "This run is the fastest using OoB's glitches."

True this would conflict with certain games in which case OoB's glitches don't affect gametime that much (a few seconds to a minute at best), but for games like MP (where it still doesn't take up that much time) I think that the categories should still be separate.

I know that in the end it's all up to the admins, but I think that we should think about both the runners, and the people just getting introduced to speed-running.

ridd3r.

Edit history:

ridd3r.: 2010-07-21 06:00:11 am

2010-07-21 05:23:48 am

we have lift off

I'd just like to say that I for one do appreciate all the work Grenola has put in but I completely disagree with how he has taken things here and so this is my response to his post.

Quote:

Especially here, where decency and respect have always taken second place to telling people to go and fuck themselves.

And then you say this:

Quote:

I am holding it accountable. Fuck you if you don't like it.

Bit hypocritical? If you really valued decency and respect you wouldn't abandon it just because you think a community has. You are also telling many people who had nothing to do with your grievances to fuck themselves, several people of whom will also have got a bad deal over rule changes. The people you apparently sympathize with and are standing up for?

Quote:

.......They didn't get submitted because Radix changed the rules to make real names mandatory, when a bunch of anonymously-submitted runs were already on the site. These are just examples off the top of my head from the year I spent running this place. There were others, I promise you.

Who can seriously expect a process to just spring up perfectly out of no where without some inital problems and without the need for revisions? You can't seriously expect the rules to not take a while to establish. Do you really think SDA would be better off sticking to rules that were made with a lot less experience and knowledge? And for what, so that a few old runs can continue to be contested? Runs like yours wouldn't even be taken down until a new run came along anyway.

Quote:

None of these instances were the fault of the runners. Yet it was the runners who were punished for them. Is that fair?

Of course it's not fair, but nothing is perfect.

Quote:

Seriously? "I can't beat this run, but I want my name to be the only one on the page, so I'm demanding a rule change"?

You're assuming he can't beat the run. Miles posted that he managed to get 1:30 ahead with hardly any effort in just the first few segments.

Quote:

And now, someone is kicking up a fuss about the indignity of having to share a game page with another category, one that at the time the incumbent run was completed was the only category allowed? Wow. And of course, everyone here loves the idea. Well, I'm calling it out: It's consummate bullshit.

That's simply not the case, it's not about indignation, it's about updating an out of date rule that has been in place for ages, it just so happens that it's only come up now due to a new run.

Quote:

Updating this site was not what I would call a barrel of fun....

Everyone should appreciate all the effort you put into the site but I don't see the value in the points you make here. So people made mistakes which cost you time, of course that will happen, I'm sure you made some mistakes during your time as an updater too. Your promo video got some abuse from groobo? While there should be no excuse for people not at least giving constructive criticism, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are people like that everywhere and there's no escaping it.

Quote:

Who is going to stick up for all the people that this site has treated unjustly? Until now, there was nobody.

What you call this sticking up for those people? Or maybe they just didn't see it that way, maybe they were happy to see the site evolve into establishing rules that work well.

Quote:

Nothing even resembling fairness.

That's a bunch of crap, there has been some unfairness in updating the rules and a few problems here and there but the vast majority of members ARE treated fairly. Hence this only coming up now. What about grandfathering runs that now violate the no script rule?

Quote:

We don't want your run; we have 500 games already

To put that into context, pretty much every post Zoid has ever made on this site has been very aggressive and suggesting everyone on SDA hates him which is simply not the case. He seems to think SDA is against him and all his posts are basically attacking SDA so it's more a question of wanting someone like that. He seems to have retracted his latest post and apologised anyway but you can at least see where Mike was coming from.

Quote:

But there are still a few of my possessions lying around on this site in important places. So, since I'm sufficiently embittered about this whole affair, and am still in a position to deny SDA some things that it wants

You were working on SDA 2.0 long after the hard time you had updating and when the rules restricted you doing what you wanted to with metroid. Now they are what you wanted them to be back then but just because of a few trolls around (which community hasn't got them) and because the site actually wants to progress, you are throwing away all your work and screwing the SDA you wanted in the first place. The horrible thing for you is you are screwing yourself over much more, think how many hours you put into this, you could easily have viewed this as: Great the game I loved running is finally being updated according to the rules and there will be some new runs. Instead you viewed it as a personal attack.

Quote:

(P.S. I don't get why people are complaining about me asking for my runs to be taken down. I felt like I'd be making a statement while simultaneously doing everyone a favour. You can't obsolete controversially a run that isn't there any more, and 17% ceased to be low% some considerable time ago.)

Quite.

I'd just like to say that I for one do appreciate all the work Grenola has put in but I completely disagree with how he has taken things here and so this is my response to his post.

[quote] Especially here, where decency and respect have always taken second place to telling people to go and fuck themselves.[/quote]

And then you say this:

[quote] I am holding it accountable. Fuck you if you don't like it. [/quote]

Bit hypocritical? If you really valued decency and respect you wouldn't abandon it just because you think a community has. You are also telling many people who had nothing to do with your grievances to fuck themselves, several people of whom will also have got a bad deal over rule changes. The people you apparently sympathize with and are standing up for?

[quote].......They didn't get submitted because Radix changed the rules to make real names mandatory, when a bunch of anonymously-submitted runs were already on the site. These are just examples off the top of my head from the year I spent running this place. There were others, I promise you. [/quote]

Who can seriously expect a process to just spring up perfectly out of no where without some inital problems and without the need for revisions? You can't seriously expect the rules to not take a while to establish. Do you really think SDA would be better off sticking to rules that were made with a lot less experience and knowledge? And for what, so that a few old runs can continue to be contested? Runs like yours wouldn't even be taken down until a new run came along anyway.

[quote] None of these instances were the fault of the runners. Yet it was the runners who were punished for them. Is that fair? [/quote]

Of course it's not fair, but nothing is perfect.

[quote] Seriously? "I can't beat this run, but I want my name to be the only one on the page, so I'm demanding a rule change"? [/quote]

You're assuming he can't beat the run. Miles posted that he managed to get 1:30 ahead with hardly any effort in just the first few segments.

[quote] And now, someone is kicking up a fuss about the indignity of having to share a game page with another category, one that at the time the incumbent run was completed was the only category allowed? Wow. And of course, everyone here loves the idea. Well, I'm calling it out: It's consummate bullshit.[/quote]

That's simply not the case, it's not about indignation, it's about updating an out of date rule that has been in place for ages, it just so happens that it's only come up now due to a new run.

[quote]Updating this site was not what I would call a barrel of fun.... [/quote]

Everyone should appreciate all the effort you put into the site but I don't see the value in the points you make here. So people made mistakes which cost you time, of course that will happen, I'm sure you made some mistakes during your time as an updater too. Your promo video got some abuse from groobo? While there should be no excuse for people not at least giving constructive criticism, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. There are people like that everywhere and there's no escaping it.

[quote] Who is going to stick up for all the people that this site has treated unjustly? Until now, there was nobody. [/quote]

What you call this sticking up for those people? Or maybe they just didn't see it that way, maybe they were happy to see the site evolve into establishing rules that work well.

[quote] Nothing even resembling fairness. [/quote]

That's a bunch of crap, there has been some unfairness in updating the rules and a few problems here and there but the vast majority of members ARE treated fairly. Hence this only coming up now. What about grandfathering runs that now violate the no script rule?

[quote] We don't want your run; we have 500 games already [/quote]

To put that into context, pretty much every post Zoid has ever made on this site has been very aggressive and suggesting everyone on SDA hates him which is simply not the case. He seems to think SDA is against him and all his posts are basically attacking SDA so it's more a question of wanting someone like that. He seems to have retracted his latest post and apologised anyway but you can at least see where Mike was coming from.

[quote]But there are still a few of my possessions lying around on this site in important places. So, since I'm sufficiently embittered about this whole affair, and am still in a position to deny SDA some things that it wants [/quote]

You were working on SDA 2.0 long after the hard time you had updating and when the rules restricted you doing what you wanted to with metroid. Now they are what you wanted them to be back then but just because of a few trolls around (which community hasn't got them) and because the site actually wants to progress, you are throwing away all your work and screwing the SDA you wanted in the first place. The horrible thing for you is you are screwing yourself over much more, think how many hours you put into this, you could easily have viewed this as: Great the game I loved running is finally being updated according to the rules and there will be some new runs. Instead you viewed it as a personal attack.

[quote](P.S. I don't get why people are complaining about me asking for my runs to be taken down. I felt like I'd be making a statement while simultaneously doing everyone a favour. You can't obsolete controversially a run that isn't there any more, and 17% ceased to be low% some considerable time ago.) [/quote]

Quite.

Worn_Traveler

2010-07-21 07:09:40 am

Formerly known as Skullboy

Quote from Lord_VG:

Quote from Radix:

Quote from Skullboy:

the older runs starting with Nate's 100% of Metroid Prime in 1:37.

*cough*

I know. How could he screw up remembering the greatest run in SDA history? It was the one that made SDA famous! And it brought COOL people to the site (mainly, me)!

(Looks at post. Looks at old news.)
Smeg. Sorry about that Radix. I keep thinking you two are the same person. Won't happen again. Thanks for the subtle and not-so-subtle hints Radix and Lord (almost said Sir) _ VG.

Sir VG

2010-07-21 07:36:00 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from Skullboy:

Quote from Lord_VG:

Quote from Radix:

Quote from Skullboy:

the older runs starting with Nate's 100% of Metroid Prime in 1:37.

*cough*

I know. How could he screw up remembering the greatest run in SDA history? It was the one that made SDA famous! And it brought COOL people to the site (mainly, me)!

(Looks at post. Looks at old news.)
Smeg. Sorry about that Radix. I keep thinking you two are the same person. Won't happen again. Thanks for the subtle and not-so-subtle hints Radix and Lord (almost said Sir) _ VG.

Either one is acceptable. I'm only using Lord in the forums because of a joke in the ActRaiser forum several years ago.

ZenicReverie

2010-07-21 09:04:29 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

I don't think old runs made under old rules that change to disallow a category to be accepted at SDA any longer should be obsoleted. The runners put in a lot of time, and usually have no control over a rule change that comes later on. I believe there should be a section for discontinued categories and, on each game page that has one, a small note that the game has some old runs for categories that are no longer accepted. The only other game I can think of right now that has a discontinued category is Banjo Tooie's Cheato's Cheats. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was decided that all cheats, even those in-game, were deemed not acceptable for new categories, so that run is frozen there. It's possible that the only reason Mike is considering having the non-sw obsoleted by the sw runs is because they're slower, and that would never happen with the Cheato's Cheats run. Runners would still have the right to take down their run of course, so I'm guessing this wouldn't have an effect on DJGrenola's decision to remove his runs.

Quote from DJGrenola:

I'm tired of this judge, jury and executioner attitude. What about that Deku Tree fiasco, where an OoT glitch got the green light, and then the run was ultimately rejected for OoB violation after its completion?

During Radix's time. It was mentioned that when shown to Radix, there was no evident OoB, but in the run the runner had clipped the bounds. Technicality obviously, but Radix was the sole responsible party for making sure the runs matched the rules.

Quote from DJGrenola:

What about the Duke Nukem 3D runs that were stalemated for about two months, because Mike accepted them and then I refused to post them on account of mysterious teleporting, which was in clear violation of the (then current) rules?

Again, this is a rule you don't agree with, but upheld, that was made during Radix's time. Are you more upset that you had to uphold and follow rules in the past that you felt needed to change, or that it took this long to change them? Or is it that the rules can change at anytime? Honestly I don't really see the changes as arbitrary, and from what I've seen they're as fair as a change can be. I'll echo EC, and ask you to express what an ideal way to change would be. We're not going to be able to sit down and discuss all possible rules and create a set that never changes. Change happens, and needs to in order to grow.

Quote from DJGrenola:

What about Scarlet's Castlevania: NitM runs as Richter and Maria? They didn't get submitted because Radix changed the rules to make real names mandatory, when a bunch of anonymously-submitted runs were already on the site.

Radix's rules strike again. This was always the most confusing preventative rule on SDA. Why not just give a fake real name? I can't believe people saw this rule and thought, "Oh, I can't submit now, I need to give my real name and only my real name." She could have just gone with Red Scarlet. I've known girls named Red (well, only one actually).

I'm not trying to say all of Radix was crazy for making those rules. I think he was doing the best he could with being thrust into a decision making role. He knew the kind of runs he wanted to see and used that to base the rules on.

There's no way to make amends for the past on the Internet. When people leave a site, they truly leave it, often changing their name and email later with no way to contact them. So we could apologize all we want, but the people that should hear it most likely won't.

Quote from DJGrenola:

Who is going to stick up for all the people that this site has treated unjustly? Until now, there was nobody.

Don't take what I'm about to say as an attack. It's a call to action for you since you have such history here. You say there's no one sticking up for the unjustly treated. Well, there still isn't. I don't see you standing up for anything. I see you running away. So, you want to see something change about the way policies are handled? I can tell you that taking your cards and going home isn't a way to change.

You'll probably be upset by all that. I hope you'll consider it though. Take care, and thank you for all the hard work you've done. It's a sad fact that you'll hear more criticism than praise in life.

I don't think old runs made under old rules that change to disallow a category to be accepted at SDA any longer should be obsoleted. The runners put in a lot of time, and usually have no control over a rule change that comes later on. I believe there should be a section for discontinued categories and, on each game page that has one, a small note that the game has some old runs for categories that are no longer accepted. The only other game I can think of right now that has a discontinued category is Banjo Tooie's Cheato's Cheats. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was decided that all cheats, even those in-game, were deemed not acceptable for new categories, so that run is frozen there. It's possible that the only reason Mike is considering having the non-sw obsoleted by the sw runs is because they're slower, and that would never happen with the Cheato's Cheats run. Runners would still have the right to take down their run of course, so I'm guessing this wouldn't have an effect on DJGrenola's decision to remove his runs.

[quote="DJGrenola"]
I'm tired of this judge, jury and executioner attitude. What about that Deku Tree fiasco, where an OoT glitch got the green light, and then the run was ultimately rejected for OoB violation after its completion?
[/quote]
During Radix's time. It was mentioned that when shown to Radix, there was no evident OoB, but in the run the runner had clipped the bounds. Technicality obviously, but Radix was the sole responsible party for making sure the runs matched the rules.

[quote="DJGrenola"]
What about the Duke Nukem 3D runs that were stalemated for about two months, because Mike accepted them and then I refused to post them on account of mysterious teleporting, which was in clear violation of the (then current) rules?
[/quote]
Again, this is a rule you don't agree with, but upheld, that was made during Radix's time. Are you more upset that you had to uphold and follow rules in the past that you felt needed to change, or that it took this long to change them? Or is it that the rules can change at anytime? Honestly I don't really see the changes as arbitrary, and from what I've seen they're as fair as a change can be. I'll echo EC, and ask you to express what an ideal way to change would be. We're not going to be able to sit down and discuss all possible rules and create a set that never changes. Change happens, and needs to in order to grow.

[quote="DJGrenola"]
What about Scarlet's Castlevania: NitM runs as Richter and Maria? They didn't get submitted because Radix changed the rules to make real names mandatory, when a bunch of anonymously-submitted runs were already on the site.
[/quote]
Radix's rules strike again. This was always the most confusing preventative rule on SDA. Why not just give a fake real name? I can't believe people saw this rule and thought, "Oh, I can't submit now, I need to give my real name and only my real name." She could have just gone with Red Scarlet. I've known girls named Red (well, only one actually).

I'm not trying to say all of Radix was crazy for making those rules. I think he was doing the best he could with being thrust into a decision making role. He knew the kind of runs he wanted to see and used that to base the rules on.

There's no way to make amends for the past on the Internet. When people leave a site, they truly leave it, often changing their name and email later with no way to contact them. So we could apologize all we want, but the people that should hear it most likely won't.

[quote="DJGrenola"]
Who is going to stick up for all the people that this site has treated unjustly? Until now, there was nobody.
[/quote]
Don't take what I'm about to say as an attack. It's a call to action for you since you have such history here. You say there's no one sticking up for the unjustly treated. Well, there still isn't. I don't see you standing up for anything. I see you running away. So, you want to see something change about the way policies are handled? I can tell you that taking your cards and going home isn't a way to change.

You'll probably be upset by all that. I hope you'll consider it though. Take care, and thank you for all the hard work you've done. It's a sad fact that you'll hear more criticism than praise in life.

Worn_Traveler

2010-07-21 11:36:26 am

Formerly known as Skullboy

Quote from ZenicReverie:

I don't think old runs made under old rules that change to disallow a category to be accepted at SDA any longer should be obsoleted. The runners put in a lot of time, and usually have no control over a rule change that comes later on. I believe there should be a section for discontinued categories and, on each game page that has one, a small note that the game has some old runs for categories that are no longer accepted. The only other game I can think of right now that has a discontinued category is Banjo Tooie's Cheato's Cheats. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was decided that all cheats, even those in-game, were deemed not acceptable for new categories, so that run is frozen there. It's possible that the only reason Mike is considering having the non-sw obsoleted by the sw runs is because they're slower, and that would never happen with the Cheato's Cheats run. Runners would still have the right to take down their run of course, so I'm guessing this wouldn't have an effect on DJGrenola's decision to remove his runs.

I myself have no problems with Cheato's Cheats since they are more like upgrades and would have no problem with them being used if they would first get the pages, give them to Cheato and then enter the codes. It's time consuming however to add more backtracking to a complex game like Banjo- Tooie that has enough backtracking as it is. Just my opinion.

I'd also like to address the issue of just putting any future non OOB/SW tyoes of runs into the Casual Speedrunning bin like some have mentioned. The Casual Speedrunning is what it's name says. There can be just as much work and route planning going into a non glitched run as there is in one that heavily utilizes various glitches to skip small portions and such. I know the goal is for fastest time, but relegating, or even telling someone their run would have to go into the Casual section because it's ran without glitches is not conducive to good competition. We should know by now that a non-glitched run can still beat another non-glitched run, so I don't see why some people want to do away with those types of runs. We need to remember that Casual Speedrunning is more for hobby and fun, not necessarily competition and that it does not receive the recognition that a non-casual run would. Please keep that in mind before deeming any and all future non-glitched runs to the casual category because they don't suit you.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]
I don't think old runs made under old rules that change to disallow a category to be accepted at SDA any longer should be obsoleted. The runners put in a lot of time, and usually have no control over a rule change that comes later on. I believe there should be a section for discontinued categories and, on each game page that has one, a small note that the game has some old runs for categories that are no longer accepted. The only other game I can think of right now that has a discontinued category is Banjo Tooie's Cheato's Cheats. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was decided that all cheats, even those in-game, were deemed not acceptable for new categories, so that run is frozen there. It's possible that the only reason Mike is considering having the non-sw obsoleted by the sw runs is because they're slower, and that would never happen with the Cheato's Cheats run. Runners would still have the right to take down their run of course, so I'm guessing this wouldn't have an effect on DJGrenola's decision to remove his runs.[/quote]

I myself have no problems with Cheato's Cheats since they are more like upgrades and would have no problem with them being used if they would first get the pages, give them to Cheato and then enter the codes. It's time consuming however to add more backtracking to a complex game like Banjo- Tooie that has enough backtracking as it is. Just my opinion.

I'd also like to address the issue of just putting any future non OOB/SW tyoes of runs into the Casual Speedrunning bin like some have mentioned. The Casual Speedrunning is what it's name says. There can be just as much work and route planning going into a non glitched run as there is in one that heavily utilizes various glitches to skip small portions and such. I know the goal is for fastest time, but relegating, or even telling someone their run would have to go into the Casual section because it's ran without glitches is not conducive to good competition. We should know by now that a non-glitched run can still beat another non-glitched run, so I don't see why some people want to do away with those types of runs.  We need to remember that Casual Speedrunning is more for hobby and fun, not necessarily competition and that it does not receive the recognition that a non-casual run would. Please keep that in mind before deeming any and all future non-glitched runs to the casual category because they don't suit you.

mikwuyma

2010-07-21 02:09:16 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from DJGrenola:

I'm tired of this judge, jury and executioner attitude. What about that Deku Tree fiasco, where an OoT glitch got the green light, and then the run was ultimately rejected for OoB violation after its completion? What about the Duke Nukem 3D runs that were stalemated for about two months, because Mike accepted them and then I refused to post them on account of mysterious teleporting, which was in clear violation of the (then current) rules? What about Scarlet's Castlevania: NitM runs as Richter and Maria? They didn't get submitted because Radix changed the rules to make real names mandatory, when a bunch of anonymously-submitted runs were already on the site. These are just examples off the top of my head from the year I spent running this place. There were others, I promise you.

Okay honestly, like ZenicReverie said, a lot of this was when Radix still had a (light) hand running the site. I could run most of the site, but Radix was still the De Facto leader. When it came to stuff I didn't understand like oob, I usually tried contacting Radix, but some stuff slipped by me and some stuff I thought I could judge myself because Radix usually took a while to respond.

Radix and I didn't communicate as well as we should have, and I don't really have an excuse for it. All I can say is that I'm sorry and move on.

Quote:

None of these instances were the fault of the runners. Yet it was the runners who were punished for them. Is that fair?

You're right, and it sucks they were punished for something that wasn't their fault. I really should have contacted Scarlet once the name rule was repealed. If Scarlet still wants to submit her Castlevania run, she's welcome to.

If people are wondering about the other two runs:

The Duke Nukem 3D run has since been posted and the Zelda: OOT run that fluffykitten tried to submit is way out of date (I think the time was around 3 hours).

Quote:

On IRC, Sparky mentioned that he wanted to get the SW and non-SW categories on SDA merged because "otherwise, Prime is dead in the water". This was basically a covert admission of two things: a) that he wasn't interested in beating the existing run on its own terms (presumably because it would be too difficult), and b) that he wasn't satisfied with having secret worlds as a separate category. Seriously? "I can't beat this run, but I want my name to be the only one on the page, so I'm demanding a rule change"? Incredible. I hate to labour this point, but I had to put the Echoes 17% up on archive.org. I didn't complain about it once, because I respected the fact that SDA had a set of rules designed to appeal to a mass audience. And now, someone is kicking up a fuss about the indignity of having to share a game page with another category, one that at the time the incumbent run was completed was the only category allowed? Wow. And of course, everyone here loves the idea. Well, I'm calling it out: It's consummate bullshit.

Well, all I can say is that things change. We're still working out the rules and site features to this day, and while they'll never be perfect, we're always trying to improve them. I know the separate "glitch/major skips/oob/cute kittens" category is arbitrary and has to be handled on a game-by-game basis, and new tricks are always being discovered that can change these rules.

BTW, what sparky says on IRC doesn't mean everyone else knows about it. I think sparky's last post in the forum before he made this topic was in 2005. It's a little hard for us to know about this "bullshit" if we don't even know what sparky has said in the past. Undecided

Quote:

Updating this site was not what I would call a barrel of fun. I had Radix barking orders at me one minute and telling me I'd carried them out incorrectly the next. I frequently got half way through an update and discovered that I was missing some vital piece of information which I should have been given by Mike, or that one of the videos from Nate was defective. I frequently had to pull updates because of other people's mistakes.

I'm sorry for making mistakes? I know I'm not perfect, and I've made some bad rulings before (like allowing that now-obsoleted pokemon run with a missing segment on the site), and I always seem to screw up something every 10 games (usually minor though). I mean we're only human. Sad

Also, I don't think anyone works on the site because it's fun, they work on it because they like the site and want to give something back.

Quote:

I spent six months making a promo video to show at PAX, and upon its release I had to enjoy the likes of groobo telling me it was a pile of shit. Of course, in between scribbling polynomials on bits of paper and running raytraces, I had to carry on posting every single run that went up on this site. Some days I didn't even have time to eat.

Two things,

1. Groobo hates everything. That's not even much of an exaggeration. He has said maybe 10 positive things out of the 100s of posts he's made.

2. Judging from this topic, everyone else enjoyed your PAX video. Also, in the 2.0 prototype topic, people really loved the work you were putting into the site. Is praise from everyone else worth less than one asshole's remark?

Quote:

Make no mistake: Without my taking over updates, this site would have ceased to exist somewhere around 2006 or 2007. I now greatly regret saving it.

You definitely played an important part saving the site back in October of 2006 (I think that's when we decided to split radix's work up), but saying the site would have ceased to exist is a little much. It was the three combination of the three of us, you, me, and Nate, that helped get the site running again.

Quote:

We don't want your run; we have 500 games already; fuck off.

If you're talking about my post to Zoid, that's in response to zoid flying off the handle every time he disagrees with something. I was mostly poking fun at him and expressing how tired of I was of his behavior. I try to be civil to most people, but I do have my limits. It wasn't directed to you at all, but I'm sorry if you felt that way.

Quote:

But there are still a few of my possessions lying around on this site in important places. So, since I'm sufficiently embittered about this whole affair, and am still in a position to deny SDA some things that it wants, I am holding it accountable. Fuck you if you don't like it.

You're right, you are in a position to deny us stuff, but I honestly think you're just hurting yourself more than you're hurting us. Do you really want all of that work and time spent to go nowhere?

[quote="DJGrenola"]
I'm tired of this judge, jury and executioner attitude. What about that Deku Tree fiasco, where an OoT glitch got the green light, and then the run was ultimately rejected for OoB violation after its completion? What about the Duke Nukem 3D runs that were stalemated for about two months, because Mike accepted them and then I refused to post them on account of mysterious teleporting, which was in clear violation of the (then current) rules? What about Scarlet's Castlevania: NitM runs as Richter and Maria? They didn't get submitted because Radix changed the rules to make real names mandatory, when a bunch of anonymously-submitted runs were already on the site. These are just examples off the top of my head from the year I spent running this place. There were others, I promise you.[/quote]

Okay honestly, like ZenicReverie said, a lot of this was when Radix still had a (light) hand running the site. I could run most of the site, but Radix was still the De Facto leader. When it came to stuff I didn't understand like oob, I usually tried contacting Radix, but some stuff slipped by me and some stuff I thought I could judge myself because Radix usually took a while to respond.

Radix and I didn't communicate as well as we should have, and I don't really have an excuse for it. All I can say is that I'm sorry and move on.

[quote]None of these instances were the fault of the runners. Yet it was the runners who were punished for them. Is that fair?[/quote]

You're right, and it sucks they were punished for something that wasn't their fault. I really should have contacted Scarlet once the name rule was repealed. If Scarlet still wants to submit her Castlevania run, she's welcome to.

If people are wondering about the other two runs:

[spoiler]
The Duke Nukem 3D run has since been posted and the Zelda: OOT run that fluffykitten tried to submit is way out of date (I think the time was around 3 hours).
[/spoiler]

[quote]On IRC, Sparky mentioned that he wanted to get the SW and non-SW categories on SDA merged because "otherwise, Prime is dead in the water". This was basically a covert admission of two things: a) that he wasn't interested in beating the existing run on its own terms (presumably because it would be too difficult), and b) that he wasn't satisfied with having secret worlds as a separate category. Seriously? "I can't beat this run, but I want my name to be the only one on the page, so I'm demanding a rule change"? Incredible. I hate to labour this point, but I had to put the Echoes 17% up on archive.org. I didn't complain about it once, because I respected the fact that SDA had a set of rules designed to appeal to a mass audience. And now, someone is kicking up a fuss about the indignity of having to share a game page with another category, one that at the time the incumbent run was completed was the only category allowed? Wow. And of course, everyone here loves the idea. Well, I'm calling it out: It's [i]consummate bullshit[/i].[/quote]

Well, all I can say is that things change. We're still working out the rules and site features to this day, and while they'll never be perfect, we're always trying to improve them. I know the separate "glitch/major skips/oob/cute kittens" category is arbitrary and has to be handled on a game-by-game basis, and new tricks are always being discovered that can change these rules.

BTW, what sparky says on IRC doesn't mean everyone else knows about it. I think sparky's last post in the forum before he made this topic was in 2005. It's a little hard for us to know about this "bullshit" if we don't even know what sparky has said in the past. :-\

[quote]Updating this site was not what I would call a barrel of fun. I had Radix barking orders at me one minute and telling me I'd carried them out incorrectly the next. I frequently got half way through an update and discovered that I was missing some vital piece of information which I should have been given by Mike, or that one of the videos from Nate was defective. I frequently had to pull updates because of other people's mistakes. [/quote]

I'm sorry for making mistakes? I know I'm not perfect, and I've made some bad rulings before (like allowing that now-obsoleted pokemon run with a missing segment on the site), and I always seem to screw up something every 10 games (usually minor though). I mean we're only human. :(

Also, I don't think anyone works on the site because it's fun, they work on it because they like the site and want to give something back.

[quote]I spent six months making a promo video to show at PAX, and upon its release I had to enjoy the likes of groobo telling me it was a pile of shit. Of course, in between scribbling polynomials on bits of paper and running raytraces, I had to carry on posting every single run that went up on this site. Some days [i]I didn't even have time to eat[/i].[/quote]

Two things,

1. Groobo hates everything. That's not even much of an exaggeration. He has said maybe 10 positive things out of the 100s of posts he's made.

2. Judging from this [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php?topic=7023.0]topic[/url], everyone else enjoyed your PAX video. Also, in the [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php?topic=10811.15]2.0 prototype topic[/url], people really loved the work you were putting into the site. Is praise from everyone else worth less than one asshole's remark?

[quote]Make no mistake: Without my taking over updates, this site would have ceased to exist somewhere around 2006 or 2007. I now greatly regret saving it.[/quote]

You definitely played an important part saving the site back in October of 2006 (I think that's when we decided to split radix's work up), but saying the site would have ceased to exist is a little much. It was the three combination of the three of us, you, me, and Nate, that helped get the site running again.

[quote]We don't want your run; we have 500 games already; fuck off. [/quote]

If you're talking about my post to Zoid, that's in response to zoid flying off the handle every time he [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php?topic=9841.msg282357#msg282357]disagrees[/url] with [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php?topic=8233.msg229752#msg229752]something[/url]. I was mostly poking fun at him and expressing how tired of I was of his behavior. I try to be civil to most people, but I do have my limits. It wasn't directed to you at all, but I'm sorry if you felt that way.

[quote]But there are still a few of my possessions lying around on this site in important places. So, since I'm sufficiently embittered about this whole affair, and am still in a position to deny SDA some things that it wants, I am holding it accountable. Fuck you if you don't like it.[/quote]

You're right, you are in a position to deny us stuff, but I honestly think you're just hurting yourself more than you're hurting us. Do you really want all of that work and time spent to go nowhere?

bartendorsparky

2010-07-21 03:18:02 pm

Quote from DJGrenola:

On IRC, Sparky mentioned that he wanted to get the SW and non-SW categories on SDA merged because "otherwise, Prime is dead in the water". This was basically a covert admission of two things: a) that he wasn't interested in beating the existing run on its own terms (presumably because it would be too difficult), and b) that he wasn't satisfied with having secret worlds as a separate category. Seriously? "I can't beat this run, but I want my name to be the only one on the page, so I'm demanding a rule change"? Incredible. I hate to labour this point, but I had to put the Echoes 17% up on archive.org. I didn't complain about it once, because I respected the fact that SDA had a set of rules designed to appeal to a mass audience. And now, someone is kicking up a fuss about the indignity of having to share a game page with another category, one that at the time the incumbent run was completed was the only category allowed? Wow. And of course, everyone here loves the idea. Well, I'm calling it out: It's consummate bullshit.

guess i have to defend my honor now.

first of all, if you're attributing anything i say or do to sda as a whole, that's pretty silly. other than a brief appearance in 2008, i haven't had anything at all to do with sda in four years.

secondly, after getting upset for people "not reading a word you say," i'm surprised you're willing to say that. i've already said that i was more than willing to show that i could beat the current run without secret words before doing so with them (by appending the final bosses to an old run i'd done). miles has also shown that he is willing to beat your any% run without secret worlds before the run with them gets posted. i've already said that i support separate categories unless the new run is shown to be superior to the old run (disregarding things associated with the rule change). unless you oppose this rule specifically, i fail to understand how there is any controversy here. while there may be times in the past where runs got screwed after a rule change, for what's in question here it's a non-issue.

nextly, attributing my entire argument to a one line quote on irc seems kind of weird, especially considering that i, you know, wrote an entire argument in the first post. i fully stand by what i said on irc though, that is why i personally want the rule change. to have the progression of prime be halted by that boundary seems dumb to me. i've always thought ignoring secret worlds was dumb. i used them when i attempted this run in 2006, 2008, and now in 2010 after finally figuring out how to actually make it worthwhile. i personally disagree with separate categories now for the same reason i've always disagreed with separate categories: because i can just turn the game on and do it. i wrote a post arguing why i think sda should agree with me. that's that. so what. considering that i've wanted this run to work since 2006 (which iirc is before oob runs were even allowed), it's silly to think that i care about my name on a record page (there's also the whole not finishing the previous run thing if you'd like). if sda decided the rule change was stupid do you really think i would change my plans? the only thing that would change is i wouldn't be sending my videos to nate. don't act like this is a new development for me.

feel free to have whatever beef you want with sda, but don't try to pretend that anyone is out to get you here.

[quote="DJGrenola"]
On IRC, Sparky mentioned that he wanted to get the SW and non-SW categories on SDA merged because "otherwise, Prime is dead in the water". This was basically a covert admission of two things: a) that he wasn't interested in beating the existing run on its own terms (presumably because it would be too difficult), and b) that he wasn't satisfied with having secret worlds as a separate category. Seriously? "I can't beat this run, but I want my name to be the only one on the page, so I'm demanding a rule change"? Incredible. I hate to labour this point, but I had to put the Echoes 17% up on archive.org. I didn't complain about it once, because I respected the fact that SDA had a set of rules designed to appeal to a mass audience. And now, someone is kicking up a fuss about the indignity of having to share a game page with another category, one that at the time the incumbent run was completed was the only category allowed? Wow. And of course, everyone here loves the idea. Well, I'm calling it out: It's [i]consummate bullshit[/i].
[/quote]

guess i have to [b]defend my honor[/b] now.

first of all, if you're attributing anything i say or do to sda as a whole, that's pretty silly. other than a [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php?topic=7728.msg212673#msg212673]brief appearance[/url] in 2008, i haven't had anything at all to do with sda in four years.

secondly, after getting upset for people "not reading a word you say," i'm surprised you're willing to say that.  i've already said that i was more than willing to show that i could beat the current run without secret words before doing so with them (by appending the final bosses to an old run i'd done).   miles has also shown that he is willing to beat your any% run without secret worlds before the run with them gets posted.  i've already said that i support separate categories unless the new run is shown to be superior to the old run (disregarding things associated with the rule change).  unless you oppose this rule specifically, i fail to understand how there is any controversy here.  while there may be times in the past where runs got screwed after a rule change, for what's in question here it's a non-issue.

nextly, attributing my entire argument to a one line quote on irc seems kind of weird, especially considering that i, you know, wrote an entire argument in the first post.  i fully stand by what i said on irc though, that is why i personally want the rule change.  to have the progression of prime be halted by that boundary seems dumb to me.  i've always thought ignoring secret worlds was dumb.  i used them when i attempted this run in [url=http://m2k2.taigaforum.com/post/ibbf_speedrun.html]2006[/url], [url=http://m2k2.taigaforum.com/post/prime_speed_team245.html#prime_speed_team245]2008[/url], and now in [url=http://m2k2.taigaforum.com/post/wallcrawling_to_omega_pirate_from_behind.html]2010[/url] after finally figuring out how to actually make it worthwhile.  i personally disagree with separate categories now for the same reason i've always disagreed with separate categories: because i can just turn the game on and do it.  i wrote a post arguing why i think sda should agree with me.  that's that.  so what.  considering that i've wanted this run to work since 2006 (which iirc is before oob runs were even allowed), it's silly to think that i care about my name on a record page (there's also the whole not finishing the previous run thing if you'd like).  if sda decided the rule change was stupid do you really think i would change my plans?  the only thing that would change is i wouldn't be sending my videos to nate.  don't act like this is a new development for me.

feel free to have whatever beef you want with sda, but don't try to pretend that anyone is out to get you here.