requesting a rule change for the metroid prime series [locked]

2010-07-21 03:39:24 pm

Now a hit show on the CW

Thank you ridd3r. You basically said everything I wanted to say in a much more succinct way than I could have managed.

All I want to add on that topic is that yes, rule changes have burned people in the past, and will continue to do so in the future as the site evolves. It's unavoidable. But almost all of these changes have been made for the better, to prevent even more people from being screwed by the existing rules. It's a sort of 'sacrifice a few to save many" policy. It would be nice if there were a way to not ever step on anyone's toes here, but it's just not possible. The best we can do, as a community, is try to be supportive of each other, especially those who end up being hurt by the change, and try to remember that it's ultimately for the best. There's always going to be a vocal minority who choose to troll rather than get along, but come on Grenola, this is the internet. You have to learn to ignore people like that. I don't think anyone doubts the amount of effort you put into helping this site grow, or even its current existence. People take it for granted, sure, but that sort of thankless work is more or less the norm for the upkeep of a site like this.

Quote from playe:

First off I can see that there would be a lot of problems having OoB's glitches, and non-OoB's glitches being in the same category because it wouldn't be fair to the runners that don't want to use/are opposed to using SW's, and IS.

Here's the thing. OOB glitches are a fairly arbitrary restriction, just one that's easy to define. I don't see how someone can approve of one type of glitch, let's say scan-dashing in Metroid Prime, but not another, like secret worlds. They're both unintended programming flaws. It's been oft rumored that when the developers at Retro saw the early Metroid Prime speed runs, they hated it, because it made their years of work look like a hack-job. And this was a run without secret worlds. So why is space jump first and other tricks obviously not intended by the developer widely considered acceptable by the Metroid speed running community, while secret worlds have been (at least until recently) largely frowned upon? The only reasonably non-subjective way to categorize different types of runs is based on how much of the actual game any type of glitch (whether OOB or otherwise) cuts out. When you have the map glitch in Link's Awakening, RBA in Ocarina of Time, or 0 stars in Mario 64, it's obvious that these glitches need their own category separate from one that, while still perhaps using glitches and sequence breaks, completes more of the actual game. Even non-glitched runs that skip lots of the game, such as level warps in SMB and SMB3 get their own category for this same reason. The secret worlds in Metroid Prime save, at most, a minute. Ironically, scan-dashing probably cuts out way more of the game than that, so if anything should be categorized separately, it's that.

Thank you ridd3r. You basically said everything I wanted to say in a much more succinct way than I could have managed.

All I want to add on that topic is that yes, rule changes have burned people in the past, and will continue to do so in the future as the site evolves. It's unavoidable. But almost all of these changes have been made for the better, to prevent even [i]more[/i] people from being screwed by the existing rules. It's a sort of 'sacrifice a few to save many" policy. It would be nice if there were a way to not ever step on anyone's toes here, but it's just not possible. The best we can do, as a community, is try to be supportive of each other, especially those who end up being hurt by the change, and try to remember that it's ultimately for the best. There's always going to be a vocal minority who choose to troll rather than get along, but come on Grenola, this is the internet. You have to learn to ignore people like that. I don't think anyone doubts the amount of effort you put into helping this site grow, or even its current existence. People take it for granted, sure, but that sort of thankless work is more or less the norm for the upkeep of a site like this.

[quote="playe"]
First off I can see that there would be a lot of problems having OoB's glitches, and non-OoB's glitches being in the same category because it wouldn't be fair to the runners that don't want to use/are opposed to using SW's, and IS.[/quote]
Here's the thing. OOB glitches are a fairly arbitrary restriction, just one that's easy to define. I don't see how someone can approve of one type of glitch, let's say scan-dashing in Metroid Prime, but not another, like secret worlds. They're both unintended programming flaws. It's been oft rumored that when the developers at Retro saw the early Metroid Prime speed runs, they hated it, because it made their years of work look like a hack-job. And this was a run [i]without[/i] secret worlds. So why is space jump first and other tricks obviously not intended by the developer widely considered acceptable by the Metroid speed running community, while secret worlds have been (at least until recently) largely frowned upon? The only reasonably non-subjective way to categorize different types of runs is based on how much of the actual game any type of glitch (whether OOB or otherwise) cuts out. When you have the map glitch in Link's Awakening, RBA in Ocarina of Time, or 0 stars in Mario 64, it's obvious that these glitches need their own category separate from one that, while still perhaps using glitches and sequence breaks, completes more of the actual game. Even non-glitched runs that skip lots of the game, such as level warps in SMB and SMB3 get their own category for this same reason. The secret worlds in Metroid Prime save, at most, a minute. Ironically, scan-dashing probably cuts out way more of the game than that, so if anything should be categorized separately, it's that.

Worn_Traveler

2010-07-21 04:00:42 pm

Formerly known as Skullboy

Quote from bartendorsparky:

first of all, if you're attributing anything i say or do to sda as a whole, that's pretty silly.

Thanks for clearing that up Bartendorsparky. I know that I've been talking a lot about the rules in general for all of SDA, but there is always the chance of one rule eventually changing the rules for everything else, and there seems to be people who would want to allow everything, and that progression is what I'm worried about, and I'll admit to there being some selfishness with that on my part, because I like to play without glitches and such and this carries to any runs I might work on. Rules do need to change unless you want a stagnant community of games, but sometimes too much or too little change can be just as bad.

Quote from bartendorsparky:

secondly, after getting upset for people "not reading a word you say," i'm surprised you're willing to say that. i've already said that i was more than willing to show that i could beat the current run without secret words before doing so with them (by appending the final bosses to an old run i'd done). miles has also shown that he is willing to beat your any% run without secret worlds before the run with them gets posted. i've already said that i support separate categories unless the new run is shown to be superior to the old run (disregarding things associated with the rule change). unless you oppose this rule specifically, i fail to understand how there is any controversy here. while there may be times in the past where runs got screwed after a rule change, for what's in question here it's a non-issue.

If you've got 'em, submit 'em. I don't know anything about the technicalities about Metroid Prime (or almost any other game for that matter) but the best thing to do is at least try. If it's faster and doesn't skip a large chunk, then great. I respect your opinion, but the best thing to do at this point is to simply show what you can do and let the runs speak for themselves.

[quote="bartendorsparky"]
first of all, if you're attributing anything i say or do to sda as a whole, that's pretty silly.
[/quote]

Thanks for clearing that up Bartendorsparky. I know that I've been talking a lot about the rules in general for all of SDA, but there is always the chance of one rule eventually changing the rules for everything else, and there seems to be people who would want to allow everything, and that progression is what I'm worried about, and I'll admit to there being some selfishness with that on my part, because I like to play without glitches and such and this carries to any runs I might work on. Rules do need to change unless you want a stagnant community of games, but sometimes too much or too little change can be just as bad.   
 
[quote="bartendorsparky"]

secondly, after getting upset for people "not reading a word you say," i'm surprised you're willing to say that.  i've already said that i was more than willing to show that i could beat the current run without secret words before doing so with them (by appending the final bosses to an old run i'd done).   miles has also shown that he is willing to beat your any% run without secret worlds before the run with them gets posted.  i've already said that i support separate categories unless the new run is shown to be superior to the old run (disregarding things associated with the rule change).  unless you oppose this rule specifically, i fail to understand how there is any controversy here.  while there may be times in the past where runs got screwed after a rule change, for what's in question here it's a non-issue.
[/quote]

If you've got 'em, submit 'em. I don't know anything about the technicalities about Metroid Prime (or almost any other game for that matter) but the best thing to do is at least try. If it's faster and doesn't skip a large chunk, then great. I respect your opinion, but the best thing to do at this point is to simply show what you can do and let the runs speak for themselves.

ExplodingCabbage

2010-07-22 03:42:36 am

Quote from Skullboy:

Rules do need to change unless you want a stagnant community

I have very little to add, but I wanted to say that I have absolutely no idea what is meant by this 'rule change needed to avoid stagnation' argument at all, which has been mentioned a couple of times already.

Worn_Traveler

2010-07-22 07:52:06 am

Formerly known as Skullboy

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Quote from Skullboy:

Rules do need to change unless you want a stagnant community

I have very little to add, but I wanted to say that I have absolutely no idea what is meant by this 'rule change needed to avoid stagnation' argument at all, which has been mentioned a couple of times already.

Sorry Exploding Cabbage, but you left off the part about games. I said that rules need to change unless you want a stagnant community of games. The idea is not that the community itself stagnates, but that the games themselves do. If games only have two sets of run criteria (say 100% and any 100%, both non heavily gitched) then we eventually tire of not being able to do this or that. The idea of rule change is to add to competition. My argument is to allow something different but not do away with other categories simply because they are not inherently faster since they may not use as many glitches or OOB or SW's as another run of the same game. The community itself stagnating is very unlikely considering how many games and runners there are out there.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]
[quote="Skullboy"]Rules do need to change unless you want a stagnant community[/quote]

I have very little to add, but I wanted to say that I have absolutely no idea what is meant by this 'rule change needed to avoid stagnation' argument at all, which has been mentioned a couple of times already.
[/quote]

Sorry Exploding Cabbage, but you left off the part about games. I said that rules need to change unless you want a stagnant community of games. The idea is not that the community itself stagnates, but that the games themselves do. If games only have two sets of run criteria (say 100% and any 100%, both non heavily gitched) then we eventually tire of not being able to do this or that. The idea of rule change is to add to competition. My argument is to allow something different but not do away with other categories simply because they are not inherently faster since they may not use as many glitches or OOB or SW's as another run of the same game. The community itself stagnating is very unlikely considering how many games and runners there are out there.

ExplodingCabbage

2010-07-22 08:27:38 am

Quote from Skullboy:

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Quote from Skullboy:

Rules do need to change unless you want a stagnant community

I have very little to add, but I wanted to say that I have absolutely no idea what is meant by this 'rule change needed to avoid stagnation' argument at all, which has been mentioned a couple of times already.

Sorry Exploding Cabbage, but you left off the part about games. I said that rules need to change unless you want a stagnant community of games. The idea is not that the community itself stagnates, but that the games themselves do. If games only have two sets of run criteria (say 100% and any 100%, both non heavily gitched) then we eventually tire of not being able to do this or that. The idea of rule change is to add to competition. My argument is to allow something different but not do away with other categories simply because they are not inherently faster since they may not use as many glitches or OOB or SW's as another run of the same game. The community itself stagnating is very unlikely considering how many games and runners there are out there.

Okay, but seeing as SW are already allowed (in their own category), I don't see how the rule change that is the topic of this thread will have any impact on stagnation. Though I guess that's precisely your point.

Also, my understanding (as someone whose only experience of MP is playing half an hour of the first one at a mate's house) is that the m2k2 folks are finding new tricks and glitches all the time, so I would've thought that stagnation wouldn't be a problem for the games in question anyway.

[quote="Skullboy"]
[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]
[quote="Skullboy"]Rules do need to change unless you want a stagnant community[/quote]

I have very little to add, but I wanted to say that I have absolutely no idea what is meant by this 'rule change needed to avoid stagnation' argument at all, which has been mentioned a couple of times already.
[/quote]

Sorry Exploding Cabbage, but you left off the part about games. I said that rules need to change unless you want a stagnant community of games. The idea is not that the community itself stagnates, but that the games themselves do. If games only have two sets of run criteria (say 100% and any 100%, both non heavily gitched) then we eventually tire of not being able to do this or that. The idea of rule change is to add to competition. My argument is to allow something different but not do away with other categories simply because they are not inherently faster since they may not use as many glitches or OOB or SW's as another run of the same game. The community itself stagnating is very unlikely considering how many games and runners there are out there.[/quote]

Okay, but seeing as SW are already allowed (in their own category), I don't see how the rule change that is the topic of this thread will have any impact on stagnation. Though I guess that's precisely your point.

Also, my understanding (as someone whose only experience of MP is playing half an hour of the first one at a mate's house) is that the m2k2 folks are finding new tricks and glitches all the time, so I would've thought that stagnation wouldn't be a problem for the games in question anyway.

MPzoid

(user is banned)

MPzoid

Edit history:

MPzoid: 2010-07-22 09:26:01 am

2010-07-22 09:09:42 am

Mario shrimp vs. The Fuzionator

i apologized to nate but apparently nate didn't even give a damn about it even when i apologized to him via e-mail and on youtube he completely ignored me. what's wrong nate, do you expect me to kiss your ass more than i did? didn't i kiss your ass enough? No i'll definitely not do that! fuck you if you don't wanna accept my apology. actually it wass sparky who made me calm down and change my mind and apologize to you, because i have a lot of respect for sparky. looking at it again, i think there was no damn reason to apologize to you anyway. back a month ago i was mad at you because 1. you completely ignored me as well and because 2. you didn't want to degrade arkarian from his administrator status at m2k2 at all, even though several people had complained about ark, but apparently you didn't give a shit about that. that showed me that you were on ark's side an not on mine. @sparky and @paraxade, yes i like you but please don't force me to stay at sda because there's so much that's going wrong here and i can't stay here. the point is that i'm NOT obligated to accept the rules of sda. and a friend of mine (whose name i don't wanna mention here now) told me that SDA is grossly mismanaged and is nothing more than a glorified fan-site. and i think he's right about that. also, i noticed that several people from m2k2 (like ark and tomatobob) are also hanging out here at sda, and those people were mainly the reason which made me leave m2k2, so i can't stay here either. nate's turned out to be a big asshole as well, not to mention mike (especially the way he treated me in his last post). i've had problems with nate, djgrenola has had problems with nate and silent echo has also had problems with nate long ago. that's three people having problems with nate. would that mean all three of us are wrong but nate is right? no! that means nate is the problem!

and i completely agree with DJGrenola, i know what he means, something is wrong with this site. and also i had to endure several years what he's going through now.

Quote from DJGrenola:

I'm tired of this judge, jury and executioner attitude.

me too.

Quote from DJGrenola:

I spent six months making a promo video to show at PAX, and upon its release I had to enjoy the likes of groobo telling me it was a pile of shit.

from my own experiences, i know how it feels.

Quote from DJGrenola:

Some days I didn't even have time to eat. In return, I get just the same level of contempt as is shown to everyone else here. No favourites. Fastest time wins. My run does not have to be beaten fair and square. Get this: The timer -- the precise measuring device that should be this site's Bible -- doesn't count. Instead, people are waving their arms about and talking about "play quality", as if any of the people who are to verify Miles's SS have ever skipped the Grapple beam in Echoes like I have. What the fuck would they know about play quality?

so true! and this reminds me on something i said about a month ago at m2k2: people will never understand your suffering and your situation until they experience the same.

Quote from DJGrenola:

Who is going to stick up for all the people that this site has treated unjustly? Until now, there was nobody.

that makes me remember the time in early 2008 when three of my runs in star fox adventures legend of spyro and shadow the hedgehog got rejected (even though there were no other runs for those games back then). they got rejected for no reason other than bureaucracy.

Quote from DJGrenola:

We don't want your run; we have 500 games already; fuck off.

that's exactly what he meant:

Quote from mikwuyma:

But Zoid, we need you. If you leave, we'll only have speedruns of 581 games.

and did you also know that there's like 7 Billion other websites on the world wide web? how's that number?

Quote from DJGrenola:

P.S. I don't get why people are complaining about me asking for my runs to be taken down.

because they don't want rebels who use their brain and their pride and who keep making drama. they want obedient people who keep their mouth shut.

Quote from DJGrenola:

Especially here, where decency and respect have always taken second place to telling people to go and fuck themselves.

so true! and not just here, but also at metroid2002.

Quote from DJGrenola:

This just gets even more ridiculous if you were around to witness the enormous hostility that was shown towards secret worlds by metroid 2002 in the early days. Look around on the forum enough and you will find the same people who are now clamouring for Zoid's run to be taken down trolling secret worlds for all they were worth.

that's so true. I've been thinking this for years now. especially ever since ark's statement "But while I'd rather watch a non–SW run than a SW run, I'd much rather watch a sparky run than a Zoid run, so sparky's is definitely the one I'll be keeping my eyes on."

and yes there are too many trolls on the internet, but am i obligated to endure them? no, that's why it's better for me to leave.

Quote from DJGrenola:

I am wondering what sane person would possibly want to spend months recording a run and submitting it to this site when they run the risk of having it made either illegal or obsolete two weeks later by a rule change over which they have no control?

exactly. though i'm still going to continue my run mainly for the reason that you shouldn't be doing runs for the public but you should do it for yourself, because the public will never be satisfied or thankful with it. you should do the run for yourself. that's why i'm going to continue my run.

Quote from DJGrenola:

I certainly won't be submitting another run to SDA.

me too. that's why i changed my mind mike. even though i got sparky's ok to do so, i still won't be submitting my escape time to sda, simply because i don't care about having my name and my run on this site anymore.

and because everyone keeps saying that rule changes always keep happening in life and is necessary to evolve: that's not true. rule changes are not ALWAYS good. One example: the Bible is the result of an infiltration and hijacking which should have never happened, but due to (rule) changes everything got worse. so you see, saying rule changes are "always" good is wrong!

and one thing else: you cannot compare scan dashes or ghetto jumps with secret worlds. those are completely different. while scan dashes and ghetto jumps let you still be "in the game" secret worlds help you get "out of the game".

i apologized to nate but apparently nate didn't even give a damn about it even when i apologized to him via e-mail and on youtube he completely ignored me. what's wrong nate, do you expect me to kiss your ass more than i did? didn't i kiss your ass enough? No i'll definitely not do that! fuck you if you don't wanna accept my apology. actually it wass sparky who made me calm down and change my mind and apologize to you, because i have a lot of respect for sparky. looking at it again, i think there was no damn reason to apologize to you anyway. back a month ago i was mad at you because 1. you completely ignored me as well and because 2. you didn't want to degrade arkarian from his administrator status at m2k2 at all, even though several people had complained about ark, but apparently you didn't give a shit about that. that showed me that you were on ark's side an not on mine. @sparky and @paraxade, yes i like you but please don't force me to stay at sda because there's so much that's going wrong here and i can't stay here. the point is that i'm NOT obligated to accept the rules of sda. and a friend of mine (whose name i don't wanna mention here now) told me that SDA is grossly mismanaged and is nothing more than a glorified fan-site. and i think he's right about that. also, i noticed that several people from m2k2 (like ark and tomatobob) are also hanging out here at sda, and those people were mainly the reason which made me leave m2k2, so i can't stay here either. nate's turned out to be a big asshole as well, not to mention mike (especially the way he treated me in his last post). i've had problems with nate, djgrenola has had problems with nate and silent echo has also had problems with nate long ago. that's three people having problems with nate. would that mean all three of us are wrong but nate is right? no! that means nate is the problem!

and i completely agree with DJGrenola, i know what he means, something is wrong with this site. and also i had to endure several years what he's going through now.

[quote="DJGrenola"]I'm tired of this judge, jury and executioner attitude.[/quote]

me too.

[quote="DJGrenola"]I spent six months making a promo video to show at PAX, and upon its release I had to enjoy the likes of groobo telling me it was a pile of shit.[/quote]

from my own experiences, i know how it feels.

[quote="DJGrenola"]Some days [i]I didn't even have time to eat[/i]. In return, I get just the same level of contempt as is shown to everyone else here. No favourites. Fastest time wins. My run does not have to be beaten fair and square. Get this: The timer -- the precise measuring device that should be this site's Bible -- [i]doesn't count[/i]. Instead, people are waving their arms about and talking about "play quality", as if any of the people who are to verify Miles's SS have ever skipped the Grapple beam in Echoes like I have. What the fuck would they know about play quality?[/quote]

so true! and this reminds me on something i said about a month ago at m2k2: people will never understand your suffering and your situation until they experience the same.

[quote="DJGrenola"]Who is going to stick up for all the people that this site has treated unjustly? Until now, there was nobody.[/quote]

that makes me remember the time in early 2008 when three of my runs in star fox adventures legend of spyro and shadow the hedgehog got rejected (even though there were no other runs for those games back then). they got rejected for no reason other than bureaucracy.

[quote="DJGrenola"]We don't want your run; we have 500 games already; fuck off.[/quote]

that's exactly what he meant:

[quote="mikwuyma"]But Zoid, we need you. If you leave, we'll only have speedruns of  [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/gamelist.html]581 games[/url].[/quote]

and did you also know that there's like 7 Billion other websites on the world wide web? how's that number?

[quote="DJGrenola"]P.S. I don't get why people are complaining about me asking for my runs to be taken down.[/quote]

because they don't want rebels who use their brain and their pride and who keep making drama. they want obedient people who keep their mouth shut.

[quote="DJGrenola"]Especially here, where decency and respect have always taken second place to telling people to go and fuck themselves.[/quote]

so true! and not just here, but also at metroid2002.

[quote="DJGrenola"]This just gets even more ridiculous if you were around to witness the enormous hostility that was shown towards secret worlds by metroid 2002 in the early days. Look around on the forum enough and you will find the same people who are now clamouring for Zoid's run to be taken down trolling secret worlds for all they were worth.[/quote]

that's so true. I've been thinking this for years now. especially ever since ark's statement "But while I'd rather watch a non–SW run than a SW run, I'd much rather watch a sparky run than a Zoid run, so sparky's is definitely the one I'll be keeping my eyes on."

and yes there are too many trolls on the internet, but am i obligated to endure them? no, that's why it's better for me to leave.

[quote="DJGrenola"]I am wondering what sane person would possibly want to spend months recording a run and submitting it to this site when they run the risk of having it made either illegal or obsolete two weeks later by a rule change over which they have no control?[/quote]

exactly. though i'm still going to continue my run mainly for the reason that you shouldn't be doing runs for the public but you should do it for yourself, because the public will never be satisfied or thankful with it. you should do the run for yourself. that's why i'm going to continue my run.

[quote="DJGrenola"]I certainly won't be submitting another run to SDA.[/quote]

me too. that's why i changed my mind mike. even though i got sparky's ok to do so, i still won't be submitting my escape time to sda, simply because i don't care about having my name and my run on this site anymore.

and because everyone keeps saying that rule changes always keep happening in life and is necessary to evolve: that's not true. rule changes are not ALWAYS good. One example: the Bible is the result of an infiltration and hijacking which should have never happened, but due to (rule) changes everything got worse. so you see, saying rule changes are "always" good is wrong!

and one thing else: you cannot compare scan dashes or ghetto jumps with secret worlds. those are completely different. while scan dashes and ghetto jumps let you still be "in the game" secret worlds help you get "out of the game".

ZenicReverie

2010-07-22 09:28:35 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

I don't know of any other site that does the same thing as SDA (host videos of non-TASs). If you think you can't change the current state of SDA more to your liking, and you're still interested in speedrunning, then maybe you should go start a new site. Maybe if DJGrenola is of the same mind he'll actually put the work he's done on SDA 2.0 to use for that. I just hate to see hard work go to waste. Good luck with wherever you land.

mikwuyma

2010-07-22 09:33:06 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Zoid:

Don't be a flip-flopper, be a decider. Tongue

But seriously, I'm tired of this bullshit.

If you're tired of us, then leave and go to the 7 billlion other sites on the internet (just don't get involved with the 6 billion porn sites ;)). You only had about 100 chances to do so. You must really love us to constantly post here every single time. Kiss

If you don't want to submit your escape run, then fine, I don't care, but make up your mind.

If you want, I can even ban you so:

1. You can leave us for good and go to post your runs somewhere else.

2. You have something else to righteously rage against, White Knight.

I'll let you think about being banned.

P.S. I thought your friend was "done with this shite". And what's wrong with being a fan-site? We're all video game fans. Tongue

Hattori HANZo

2010-07-22 01:53:35 pm

contraddicted

I just wanna say a big "Thank you!" to all the people who are really involved in this drama Smiley

I have no idea about Metroid Prime nor do I know SDA background stuff. But despite that, reading most of the postings in this topic - after DJGrenola announced his leaving - really made me smile, laugh, shake my head or all of that.

Some of you might be thinking that all the drama that has been produced during the last days is simply just that and pointless also. People fighting with each other about things in the past or just existing in their own imagination, throwing around accusations and insults.
But that's not true. There is a small number of people who enjoy reading this. And they are happy that some people completely abandoned decency, common sense and also seemingly any sane part of their self-perception.

So please keep this going a little more in the fashion it's been going the last days.

MASTER-88

2010-07-22 02:37:06 pm

Master-88

Thats always interesting read Zoid post. Smiley

I agree Zoid & djgrenola with most things. And i really understand its piss of a lot. Im not like this rule change too. This hold idea is piece of shit IMO. Tongue

Because its so unfair persons who owns awesome runs into site and these are played without SW and little later secret worlds are allowed obsoleted runs without secret worlds and all hard job will be unnecessary.

All SW & IS tricks are OOB and there is absolutely nothings how we can even comapared secret worlds with ghetto, dash or bomb jumps stuffs. These three are just pure game tricks like Zoid said. Wink

Quote:

If you want, I can even ban you so:

1. You can leave us for good and go to post your runs somewhere else.

2. You have something else to righteously rage against, White Knight.

I'll let you think about being banned

Is anyone ever banned here? I guess nobody are not. Even you are banned you can write without accounts. Guests can still write.

Mystery

2010-07-22 02:44:27 pm

Quote from MASTER-88:

...Because its so unfair persons who owns awesome runs into site and these are played without SW and little later secret worlds are allowed obsoleted runs without secret worlds and all hard job will be unnecessary.

But these "old" runs would be grandfathered. Stay in place until certain criterias are met. And then those whose runs were beaten can always gear up another run with SWs to beat the current run.
I don't see it as unfair at all.

ZenicReverie

2010-07-22 03:00:46 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from MASTER-88:

Quote:

If you want, I can even ban you so:

1. You can leave us for good and go to post your runs somewhere else.

2. You have something else to righteously rage against, White Knight.

I'll let you think about being banned

Is anyone ever banned here? I guess nobody are not. Even you are banned you can write without accounts. Guests can still write.

Banned by IP?

Worn_Traveler

2010-07-22 03:18:55 pm

Formerly known as Skullboy

Quote from Mystery:

Quote from MASTER-88:

...Because its so unfair persons who owns awesome runs into site and these are played without SW and little later secret worlds are allowed obsoleted runs without secret worlds and all hard job will be unnecessary.

But these "old" runs would be grandfathered. Stay in place until certain criterias are met. And then those whose runs were beaten can always gear up another run with SWs to beat the current run.
I don't see it as unfair at all.

I think the issue here is that some runners believe that the runs shouldn't be grandfathered and that SW should be a seperate category. Some might want to run without secret worlds and grandfathering them may relegate any future non SW run (unless it's something like 100% since SW's might not help) to the rejection pile or be "politely" told to go the casual speedrunning group and put their non SW run there.

Mystery

2010-07-22 03:29:22 pm

That's another issue, though (which I will not be debating).
All I wanted to add was that by no means is it unfair is it unfair to the existing runners who has non-SW runs (as I can see). New tricks found. Obsoletes old runs. That's basically all to it. And because those tricks were previously banned, SDA would be so nice as to grandfather their runs until the runners can attempt a SW run to obsolete their own, old runs.

Kharay1977

2010-07-22 03:32:52 pm

Quote from mikwuyma:

But seriously, I'm tired of this bullshit.

Maybe that could serve as a hint?

Quote from MASTER-88:

Im not like this rule change too.

Even though you probably don't care about anything I have to say anymore, MASTER-88, I say this with the best intentions - the reason Zoid is leaving is not about OOB/SWs specifically. It's bigger than that. It has to do with how the site is managed and the way decisions are reached.

By the way, MASTER-88... how about we both forgive and forget? I am not one to hold grudges. So... *offers hand in friendship*.

And, yes, Mike... it was me. Wink

Flip

2010-07-22 03:43:19 pm

1-Up!

Alright, Zoid, let me see if I can explain some stuff to you.

Quote from MPzoid:

i apologized to nate but apparently nate didn't even give a damn about it even when i apologized to etc etc

I'm not going to pretend to know all the details here, but if you're upset because nate didn't acknowledge your apology then you weren't sincerely sorry to begin with. You apologize if you are remorseful for doing something wrong, not to be welcomed back with open arms. Lots of people here don't appreciate your aggressive, often rude posts. Just because you apologize doesn't mean they're going to forget all about it.

Also, don't drag up m2k2 drama here. Whatever is going on with ark over there needs to be handled over there, but I will say that a handful of complaints normally shouldn't merit an admin being fired. Anyhow, I'll leave that alone bc it doesn't belong here anyway.

Quote from MPzoid:

the point is that i'm NOT obligated to accept the rules of sda. and a friend of mine (whose name i don't wanna mention here now) told me that SDA is grossly mismanaged and is nothing more than a glorified fan-site. and i think he's right about that.

Call us whatever makes you happy. I disagree that the site is grossly mismanaged, considering that the vast majority of users are very happy with the way things are around here. Mike has steered us in a good direction since he took the helm and nate gives more to the site than anybody could ever ask for. I personally think that you're saying the site is grossly mismanaged because you're unhappy about this oob ruling, you feel underappreciated and because your posts are always extremely dramatic, but maybe that's just me.

Quote from MPzoid:

also, i noticed that several people from m2k2 (like ark and tomatobob) are also hanging out here at sda, and those people were mainly the reason which made me leave m2k2, so i can't stay here either.

I think this is kinda silly, but if the presence of m2k2 users that you dislike is truly going to make you leave, then I guess there's nothing we can do.

Quote from MPzoid:

nate's turned out to be a big asshole as well, not to mention mike (especially the way he treated me in his last post). i've had problems with nate, djgrenola has had problems with nate and silent echo has also had problems with nate long ago. that's three people having problems with nate. would that mean all three of us are wrong but nate is right? no! that means nate is the problem!

with regards to mike:
the reason he treats you the way he does is because i'm sure he's sick of your overly dramatic, selfish rage posts. If you don't know what I'm talking about then see the posts that mike linked to for some samples.

with regards to nate:
your logic is that 3 people have a problem with nate and thus nate is a problem because the three of you couldn't possibly be wrong. Along those same lines, I could easily find over 100 people who have no problem with nate and acknowledge that he does a fine job. Does that make us right and you wrong? You're immediate assumption that you can't be wrong and thus nate is wrong is just more arrogance, which is why people are getting tired of your posts.

Quote from MPzoid:

Quote from DJGrenola:

Who is going to stick up for all the people that this site has treated unjustly? Until now, there was nobody.

that makes me remember the time in early 2008 when three of my runs in star fox adventures legend of spyro and shadow the hedgehog got rejected (even though there were no other runs for those games back then). they got rejected for no reason other than bureaucracy.

I don't remember this specifically, but I really doubt that your runs were rejected for any reason other than play quality.

Quote from MPzoid:

Quote from DJGrenola:

P.S. I don't get why people are complaining about me asking for my runs to be taken down.

because they don't want rebels who use their brain and their pride and who keep making drama. they want obedient people who keep their mouth shut.

People don't want DJGrenola to take his runs down because I'm sure that they (like myself) enjoyed those runs and still want them to be available as long as possible. Claiming that everybody who wants the runs to stay don't use their brain, again, sounds arrogant.

If you're enraged to the point where you can't stay around anymore, then go. Host your runs on your own site or do whatever makes you happy. If you're going to keep posting here, though, try to be more constructive and less whiny and dramatic, please.

Alright, Zoid, let me see if I can explain some stuff to you.

[quote="MPzoid"]
i apologized to nate but apparently nate didn't even give a damn about it even when i apologized to etc etc
[/quote]
I'm not going to pretend to know all the details here, but if you're upset because nate didn't acknowledge your apology then you weren't sincerely sorry to begin with.  You apologize if you are remorseful for doing something wrong, not to be welcomed back with open arms.  Lots of people here don't appreciate your aggressive, often rude posts.  Just because you apologize doesn't mean they're going to forget all about it.

Also, don't drag up m2k2 drama here.  Whatever is going on with ark over there needs to be handled over there, but I will say that a handful of complaints normally shouldn't merit an admin being fired.  Anyhow, I'll leave that alone bc it doesn't belong here anyway.

[quote="MPzoid"]
the point is that i'm NOT obligated to accept the rules of sda. and a friend of mine (whose name i don't wanna mention here now) told me that SDA is grossly mismanaged and is nothing more than a glorified fan-site. and i think he's right about that. 
[/quote]

Call us whatever makes you happy.  I disagree that the site is grossly mismanaged, considering that the vast majority of users are very happy with the way things are around here.  Mike has steered us in a good direction since he took the helm and nate gives more to the site than anybody could ever ask for.  I personally think that you're saying the site is grossly mismanaged because you're unhappy about this oob ruling, you feel underappreciated and because your posts are always extremely dramatic, but maybe that's just me.

[quote="MPzoid"]
also, i noticed that several people from m2k2 (like ark and tomatobob) are also hanging out here at sda, and those people were mainly the reason which made me leave m2k2, so i can't stay here either. 
[/quote]
I think this is kinda silly, but if the presence of m2k2 users that you dislike is truly going to make you leave, then I guess there's nothing we can do.

[quote="MPzoid"]
nate's turned out to be a big asshole as well, not to mention mike (especially the way he treated me in his last post). i've had problems with nate, djgrenola has had problems with nate and silent echo has also had problems with nate long ago. that's three people having problems with nate. would that mean all three of us are wrong but nate is right? no! that means nate is the problem!
[/quote]
with regards to mike:
the reason he treats you the way he does is because i'm sure he's sick of your overly dramatic, selfish rage posts.  If you don't know what I'm talking about then see the posts that mike linked to for some samples.

with regards to nate:
your logic is that 3 people have a problem with nate and thus nate is a problem because the three of you couldn't possibly be wrong.  Along those same lines, I could easily find over 100 people who have no problem with nate and acknowledge that he does a fine job.  Does that make us right and you wrong?  You're immediate assumption that you can't be wrong and thus nate is wrong is just more arrogance, which is why people are getting tired of your posts.

[quote="MPzoid"]
[quote="DJGrenola"]Who is going to stick up for all the people that this site has treated unjustly? Until now, there was nobody.[/quote]

that makes me remember the time in early 2008 when three of my runs in star fox adventures legend of spyro and shadow the hedgehog got rejected (even though there were no other runs for those games back then). they got rejected for no reason other than bureaucracy.
[/quote]
I don't remember this specifically, but I really doubt that your runs were rejected for any reason other than play quality.

[quote="MPzoid"]
[quote="DJGrenola"]P.S. I don't get why people are complaining about me asking for my runs to be taken down.[/quote]

because they don't want rebels who use their brain and their pride and who keep making drama. they want obedient people who keep their mouth shut.
[/quote]

People don't want DJGrenola to take his runs down because I'm sure that they (like myself) enjoyed those runs and still want them to be available as long as possible.  Claiming that everybody who wants the runs to stay don't use their brain, again, sounds arrogant.

If you're enraged to the point where you can't stay around anymore, then go.  Host your runs on your own site or do whatever makes you happy.  If you're going to keep posting here, though, try to be more constructive and less whiny and dramatic, please.

xsite

2010-07-22 03:49:14 pm

Quote from MPzoid:

i've had problems with nate, djgrenola has had problems with nate and silent echo has also had problems with nate long ago. that's three people having problems with nate. would that mean all three of us are wrong but nate is right? no! that means nate is the problem!

This is some brilliant logic.

I'm pro-nate. Maybe we should get an official tally going?

tomatobob

2010-07-22 04:10:27 pm

Maybe we should take a moment, before completely boarding the crazy train to look at what we're doing with the site and consider that, perhaps, the dissenters might be right about somethings or indeed have points worth considering. Even Zoid may have a point in there, as easy as it may be to dismiss everything he says, there may be some legitimate issue with the way the site is run, who knows?

You know, possibly learn from all of this instead of just making a big fuss over it.

Oh who am I kidding, we all know that's not happening. Onward to crazy town.

Josh the Funkdoc

2010-07-22 04:26:18 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

i always picture master-88 as a metalocalypse character irl

makes his posts even better, if you could imagine

TimADugan

2010-07-22 04:38:45 pm

The Gaming Lawyer

Quote from tomatobob:

Onward to crazy town.

Sweet! *goes to make another bowl of popcorn.*

Honestly...I don't get why having separate categories for runs that use glitches and OoB areas is such a big problem. The more categories, the more runs on the site.

ridd3r.

2010-07-22 04:42:43 pm

we have lift off

Quote from tomatobob:

Maybe we should take a moment, before completely boarding the crazy train to look at what we're doing with the site and consider that, perhaps, the dissenters might be right about somethings or indeed have points worth considering.

Three people have caused a hell of a lot of fuss and frankly blown things out of proportion. There have been several posts sensibly responding to each and every one of the issues raised by those people (or at least I would like to think so), it's not a case of just writing them off because they are against the majority (or because of the ridiculous dramatics) I assure you. There will always be people who have a serious problem with virtually anything. I have considered the points raised but when someone says that because three people think something, it must be right, I don't pay any further attention to that person and I don't see any good coming out of this thread.

Quote from tomatobob:

Honestly...I don't get why having separate categories for runs that use glitches and OoB areas is such a big problem. The more categories, the more runs on the site.

Mike said the runs would be grandfathered on like the first page. There was a whole thread about one segment per level runs last year and the consensus was that more categories aren't necessarily better.

[quote="tomatobob"]
Maybe we should take a moment, before [i]completely[/i] boarding the crazy train to look at what we're doing with the site and consider that, perhaps, the dissenters might be right about somethings or indeed have points worth considering. [/quote]

Three people have caused a hell of a lot of fuss and frankly blown things out of proportion. There have been several posts sensibly responding to each and every one of the issues raised by those people (or at least I would like to think so), it's not a case of just writing them off because they are against the majority (or because of the ridiculous dramatics) I assure you. There will always be people who have a serious problem with virtually anything. I have considered the points raised but when someone says that because three people think something, it must be right, I don't pay any further attention to that person and I don't see any good coming out of this thread.

[quote="tomatobob"]
Honestly...I don't get why having separate categories for runs that use glitches and OoB areas is such a big problem.  The more categories, the more runs on the site. [/quote]

Mike said the runs would be grandfathered on like the first page. There was a whole thread about one segment per level runs last year and the consensus was that more categories aren't necessarily better.

MASTER-88

Edit history:

MASTER-88: 2010-07-22 05:10:48 pm

2010-07-22 05:02:56 pm

Master-88

Quote from TimADugan:

Quote from tomatobob:

Onward to crazy town.

Sweet! *goes to make another bowl of popcorn.*

Honestly...I don't get why having separate categories for runs that use glitches and OoB areas is such a big problem. The more categories, the more runs on the site.

Thats look Sparky wanted are only Prime WR holder into site. Thats make Sparky name sounds even more cool and he can say he haved own any-% WR in Prime. Wink

Otherwise he only haved WR with OOB glitches and its not sounds cool as own WR. Thats maybe reason why Sparky create this topic. Tongue

Not sure is this reason with this but otherwise Zoid is still real WR holder and then Sparky haved only fastest time with glitches.

Quote:

i always picture master-88 as a metalocalypse character irl

makes his posts even better, if you could imagine

LOL

That was cool Cheesy

Nosehole

2010-07-22 05:15:47 pm

Jolly good show!

Quote from MASTER-88:

All SW & IS tricks are OOB and there is absolutely nothings how we can even comapared secret worlds with ghetto, dash or bomb jumps stuffs. These three are just pure game tricks like Zoid said. Wink

Sorry, but I don't get the logic in there. Getting out of bounds is doable on the original hardware without any manipulation, like any other glitch. I don't really see where you would draw the line between a "pure game trick" and this. You push buttons on the controller, you do a few funky jumps, you get stuck in the levelgeometry in an awkward way and BAM. You can get somewhere the developers probably didn't want you to go. Man, I wish you could do that with, say, dashjumping?

MASTER-88

2010-07-22 05:19:26 pm

Master-88

Quote from Nosehole:

Quote from MASTER-88:

All SW & IS tricks are OOB and there is absolutely nothings how we can even comapared secret worlds with ghetto, dash or bomb jumps stuffs. These three are just pure game tricks like Zoid said. Wink

Sorry, but I don't get the logic in there. Getting out of bounds is doable on the original hardware without any manipulation, like any other glitch. I don't really see where you would draw the line between a "pure game trick" and this. You push buttons on the controller, you do a few funky jumps, you get stuck in the levelgeometry in an awkward way and BAM. You can get somewhere the developers probably didn't want you to go. Man, I wish you could do that with, say, dashjumping?

Like Zoid said here. Thats my point. Wink

Quote:

and one thing else: you cannot compare scan dashes or ghetto jumps with secret worlds. those are completely different. while scan dashes and ghetto jumps let you still be "in the game" secret worlds help you get "out of the game".

[quote="Nosehole"]
[quote="MASTER-88"]
All SW & IS tricks are OOB and there is absolutely nothings how we can even comapared secret worlds with ghetto, dash or bomb jumps stuffs. These three are just pure game tricks like Zoid said. ;)[/quote]

Sorry, but I don't get the logic in there. Getting out of bounds is doable on the original hardware without any manipulation, like any other glitch. I don't really see where you would draw the line between a "pure game trick" and this. You push buttons on the controller, you do a few funky jumps, you get stuck in the levelgeometry in an awkward way and BAM. You can get somewhere the developers probably didn't want you to go. Man, I wish you could do that with, say, dashjumping?
[/quote]

Like Zoid said here. Thats my point. ;)

[quote]and one thing else: you cannot compare scan dashes or ghetto jumps with secret worlds. those are completely different. while scan dashes and ghetto jumps let you still be "in the game" secret worlds help you get "out of the game".[/quote]

Paraxade

2010-07-22 05:23:20 pm

zoid's point doesn't make sense either. you can easily compare them. why does going out of bounds warrant a distinction from staying in-bounds?