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as it stands, the rule in question says "However, when the OOB, clipping, or warping glitches let you skip large chunks of the game, including whole stages, such as Metroid Prime's secret worlds … will be a separate category."  I claim that the metroid prime series does no such thing, and secret worlds should not need a separate category.  As reference to those not familiar with secret worlds in the prime series, check out the recently created prime wiki: http://speeddemosarchive.com/kb/Metroid_Prime/Techniques#Secret_World_Tricks

In the entire trilogy, there is (as far as i know) a single instance where you don't have to follow the room layout (including transitioning between rooms at doors) exactly.  This is in echoes, where you can cross between the upper and lower level of dark torvus.  In the light version, there is an elevator connecting the two levels, but no such room exists in the dark version.  However, some residual memory or something allows you to move between them. 

While entering light upper torvus, riding an elevator, and re-entering dark torvus may very well be considered a "large chunk" of the game (i personally think that's still silly), this is an isolated incident.  Beyond that, secret worlds only let you do the same sorts of things that "in bounds" sequence breaks allow you to do.  I could argue that most of any modern speedruns (at least as far as prime and echoes are concerned) are done entirely out of the creator's intended bounds.  That seems frivolous though so i'll instead turn to more concrete evidence.

Consider Majora's Mask.  That game uses plenty of OOB tricks that skip far more "large chunks" than anything in the prime series.  Sonic videos also do all sorts of weird OOB things.  While these games obviously don't have the baggage prime does, it's time for some consistency here.

There's also the argument that "secret worlds are slow and not fun to watch."  Unfortunately it's tough to use facts to combat that one, so i'll give some evidence. 


Those are the two wallcrawls used in the current fastest metroid prime route.  i admit that they are slower than 'standard' play, but secret worlds have much more intense technical requirements.  The "large chunks" of the game skipped are a wave door (or alternately, two ice doors) in the first video, and two spider tracks in the second.  All secret worlds are used for these types of skips.  There's no way to use a secret world to enter the impact crater without any artifacts, for example.  There's nothing akin to beating lttp in 5 minutes.  Everything here follows the same spirit that resulted in m2k2's creation.

Finally, one valid complaint is that it will be possible for "worse" runs to out-date "better" runs that weren't allowed to use secret worlds.  In prime it isn't so much a problem because secret worlds make a route that's only ~30 seconds faster, so if you have a faster time then you have at least about 30 seconds of other improvement (in corruption they apparently save 4 seconds).  In echoes though, there is significant improvement.  Thus, i propose grandfathering in the current runs unless the verifiers unanimously decide that the play quality of new runs is noticeably better.  If they don't come to that conclusion, then the runs can be listed side by side until eventually a top-quality run exists.  It may result in some clutter at first, but once fast enough runs get put up it won't be an issue anymore.

tl;dr version: secret worlds are not evil.
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MASTER-88: 2010-07-15 05:42:50 pm
Master-88
Im not like this.

These need are seperate category. Thats unfair runner like Zoid who is did most awesome speedruns in SDA without secret worlds. He is just best, thats so unfair if he got lost his records if someone used secret worlds.

Also secret worlds are cheating. These skip large amount game and you will always find new secret wolrds and route will always changed. Also wall crawls skip much interesting tricks and its not look cool see when someone jumping outsite screen most of the time. All super awesome trick  will lost like vent shaft bomb jump, geo core bombslot jump and etc... stuff. If we talking about low-% runs. 

I personally like watch much more speedruns without used secret worlds because these speedruns are real.

So this rule change is big bad idea. Im not like this. Tongue Hopefully its never happen.
1) Whether or not you like SWs is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not they should be allowed on SDA.
2) Say we found a way to beat Omega Pirate without X-Ray. Using this, Zoid's run would probably be beaten, with or without secret worlds. Does that mean this perfectly legitimate in-bounds trick should be banned? Just because a great run may be obsoleted, doesn't mean the trick should be banned. If anything, it means the original runner should try to improve using the new trick.
3) It is pretty much unanimous on SDA that glitches are not cheating. Secret Worlds are nothing but a glitch, just like dash jump or HBJ.
4) "You will always find new secret worlds and route will always changed." <-- This is equally valid as saying "You will always find new in-bounds tricks and routes will always change." New tricks will be found, and routes will change. That is how games work. This is true for both in-bounds and out-of-bounds tricks. Furthermore, changing routes isn't a bad thing: it means a faster completion and better runs.
5) "Not interesting" <-- Subjective. Some people may enjoy seeing the craziness of secret worlds or the speed at which they can be performed.
Master-88
But im not really like when someone spend half amount gametime outside into screen. Thats simply look stupid and im not find any interesting with this.

I agree SW runs and im not find nothing bad with this as long as they are seperate category. But im not like it if secret worlds runs will obsoleted runs without SW used. Thats unfair and im not like this idea. Thats just sounds like same as if someone make Castlevania (GBA or DS) runs with suspend glitches used.

And how about Castlevania DOS boss rush mode run? This can be done used succubus warp glitch and my best time is somewhere 40 seconds here. Peoples never allow with this because its look so stupid and noob. And its not look interesting. I like more watch boss rush mode runs normally.

Still these seems as well glitchs like secret worlds in Prime series.

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3) It is pretty much unanimous on SDA that glitches are not cheating. Secret Worlds are nothing but a glitch, just like dash jump or HBJ.


These both seems tricks. Not glitch IMO.


.
Quote from MASTER-88:
Also secret worlds are cheating. These skip large amount game and you will always find new secret wolrds and route will always changed. Also wall crawls skip much interesting tricks and its not look cool see when someone jumping outsite screen most of the time. All super awesome trick  will lost like vent shaft bomb jump, geo core bombslot jump and etc... stuff. If we talking about low-% runs. 

I personally like watch much more speedruns without used secret worlds because these speedruns are real.

So this rule change is big bad idea. Im not like this. Tongue Hopefully its never happen.


This is a dumb reason. OoB tricks haven't been classed as 'cheating' for years now, I see no reason why secret world using runs should be refused based on these grounds.
Personally, I agree with 'sparky. For the primary reason that the so-called Secret Worlds simply do not allow for the major skips that some people seem to think they allow for. 'sparky's current Metroid Prime-run in progress uses out of bounds glitches to some extent but still looks like it will beat the current record by at most a few minutes, if it beats it. Which is not due to the fact wallcrawling is slow, it is due to the fact that the route changes they enable aren't all that dramatic.

I'll let 'sparky be the expert judge on that one though.

The Secret Worlds-glitch is far less intrusive to the route than people may think. At best, they allow for skipping a door or a time consuming puzzle or some such. Nothing much beyond that really. The engine simply doesn't enable us to do much more beyond that, you have to know the game a bit more intimately to understand.
i don't see how it would be unfair to zoid. how is it any different than finding a new trick or changing the route? if it helps drop the time, i'm all for it.

also, don't castlevania games have major skips? none of the secret worlds in the prime trilogy are major skips. they don't magically warp you to the end of the game.
Quote from BioSpark:
i don't see how it would be unfair to zoid. how is it any different than finding a new trick or changing the route? if it helps drop the time, i'm all for it.
And don't forget - if it does indeed beat Zoid's time... he's allowed to try and beat that new time using the same tricks. It's nothing personal. And I dislike the fact people try to make this discussion into something personal.
Master-88
Quote from BioSpark:
i don't see how it would be unfair to zoid. how is it any different than finding a new trick or changing the route? if it helps drop the time, i'm all for it.


IMO secret worlds and infinite speedbug are huge warps category. Nothing else can,t say. See my previous post where i tell example with this.
Quote from bartendorsparky:
In the entire trilogy, there is (as far as i know) a single instance where you don't have to follow the room layout (including transitioning between rooms at doors) exactly.  This is in echoes, where you can cross between the upper and lower level of dark torvus.  In the light version, there is an elevator connecting the two levels, but no such room exists in the dark version.  However, some residual memory or something allows you to move between them. 

I know of another area: the dark version of the room with the Darkburst, and that small room with the Amorbis key. Completely pointless, but yeah.

Anyway, my opinion is that the games are torn to shreds already; Secret Worlds are not some massive gamebreakers that are unlike everything else that has been done in-bounds already. I don't see why they should get "special" treatment just because they arbitrarily look worse.

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Also secret worlds are cheating.

I personally like watch much more speedruns without used secret worlds because these speedruns are real.


That sure is nice of you!

Regarding the grandfathering, I believe that my run is objectively better than the 1:38, so this shouldn't be a problem; SWs don't save 11 minutes.
in case it was missed in the topic post..

at the moment, considering the knowledge at m2k2, it is impossible to beat zoid's run without also playing better.  secret worlds save less than a minute, and as prime runs don't count seconds, by itself it doesn't matter.  also, see the paragraph on "grandfather clausing" at the end.

edit: miles, if that's indeed the case (hopefully i can get around to watching that this weekend), then at least that problem is over before it started.
Quote from MASTER-88:
IMO secret worlds and infinite speedbug are huge warps category. Nothing else can,t say. See my previous post where i tell example with this.
Keyword there - 'IMO'. In your opinion. But, like I and Miles have tried to illustrate, SWs do NOT shave nearly as much time off a run as some people think they do.
Yes, a cucco riding the ground.
While I'm not too familiar with MP secret worlds in particular, I agree that they don't warrant a separate category unless they're actually major skips (and by the sounds of it, they aren't).
Quote from MASTER-88:
Also secret worlds are cheating.


This makes no sense whatsoever. Secret worlds aren't any more cheating than any other glitch. Like RR said, it falls into the same category as HBJ and dash jump - they are unintended results of exploits that exist within the game that allow you to do things the developer intended. In the case of HBJs and dash jumps, you're exploiting the physics and the bomb refill timer, and in the case of a SW you're abusing both game mechanics and level design flaws. It makes absolutely no sense to make a distinction. They're both unintended, they're the same damn thing.

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These skip large amount game


This doesn't make sense either, because in Metroid Prime's case that just plain isn't true. Secret worlds do not skip large amounts of the game. Plus, there's a lot of games with tricks that skip huge chunks of the game that don't involve going out of bounds. Why are those perfectly fine but going out of bounds isn't?

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and you will always find new secret wolrds and route will always changed.


How is this any different at all from in-bounds tricks, again? You're making a distinction for absolutely no reason. If you don't like them, fine, but just plain dislike for the glitches doesn't equate to a decent or substantial argument about why they should be kept separate from runs that stay in-bounds.

Quote:
Also wall crawls skip much interesting tricks and its not look cool see when someone jumping outsite screen most of the time. All super awesome trick  will lost like vent shaft bomb jump, geo core bombslot jump and etc... stuff. If we talking about low-% runs.


Vent shaft bomb jump would still be in a run because it's faster than wallcrawling around vent shaft. Same with geo core bomb slot jump (for a 22% anyway... for 21% either way that would not be included). Either way, it's been said many times that SDA is about speed, not entertaining, so this is irrelevant anyway.

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I personally like watch much more speedruns without used secret worlds because these speedruns are real.


And these aren't?
Master-88
Thats big question what Nate will thinking with this.

He is only admin here who are Metroid games expert. 

Zoid started his own new run. Thats look its went even better than Sparky run. This will be played without secret worlds. He is completed 5 segments. Though he is privated his run but we youtube friend can see it.
Quote from MASTER-88:
Thats big question what Nate will thinking with this.
Then I think you have missed the point of SDA.
Quote from MASTER-88:
He is only admin here who are Metroid games expert.
But he is not the only Metroid Prime expert here. 
Quote from MASTER-88:
Zoid started his own new run. Thats look its went even better than Sparky run.
... and I think that ends your useful contribution to this debate.
welcome to the machine
"Warning - while you were typing 12 new replies have been posted."  I guess everything I want to say has already been said, but I'll say it again because I've already typed this out, heh.

This topic is coming up now because two Prime series runs are about to be submitted with oob glitches, if that hasn't been made clear already.  Miles finished an Echoes any% ss in 1:27 with oob last night, and sparky's pretty close to the end of his new Prime 1 any%.  It's not just an academic issue.

I support eliminating oob as a separate category for all games, not just for the Prime series.  Yeah, there are some really obnoxious glitches like ALttP or LA in 5 minutes, Dawn of Sorrow's succubus glitch, etc - but those can be caught under the Major Skips category.  For smaller ones, like Prime -- where the new route only saves about 30 seconds in total, according to sparky -- I'm having a hard time finding a good reason for classifying them any differently than other glitches.

I would argue with master-88, but everyone else already is, so whatever.
Master-88
Thats just. We can,t know it how rule change will happen.

Let admins just determine it. Nate is only "admin" who is Prime expert.  Thats just important what he will thinking with this. And if he like this idea i can,t say anything.

But i´ll hope old rules will be up in future. But i can only hope it Roll Eyes

I´ll try got contact with Zoid too and ask him what he will thinking with this. Its might take time when he respond for me because Zoid rarery visit in youtube.
that Metroidvania guy
master-88 for president

i've never laughed so much in my life
Master-88
Quote from romscout:
master-88 for president

i've never laughed so much in my life


LOL thats fun Grin
Quote from MASTER-88:
Thats just. We can,t know it how rule change will happen.
Did you even try reading what I wrote?
Quote from MASTER-88:
Let admins just determine it.
Missing the point of SDA again.
Quote from MASTER-88:
I´ll try got contact with Zoid too and ask him what he will thinking with this. Its might take time when he respond for me because Zoid rarery visit in youtube.
There is no need. I already know what he thinks of out of bounds glitches. And I know the current status of his run as well. But, I'm not going to share that with you without his explicit permission. There is a reason why he's not so active any more. And again, I'm not going to share that with you without his explicit permission. I respect him too much for that.

Clarification: I still have contact with him, at times. Irregularly though.
We all scream for Eyes Cream
Although I read the thread, I barely understand much since I'm not a MP expert. However, I do somewhat agree with Vorpal's post about oob skips. If the time saved is major(Time mainly dependent on how long the run is), it counts as a separate category. If it's only a short time(Seconds to a few short minutes), then it should just replace the old run.

Just my $.00
gamelogs.org
as an administrator at metroid 2002 (the largest metroid site devoted to speed running), i'd like to voice my support for secret worlds in the prime series not being a separate category.

furthermore i support sws and other oob tricks in every game not being a separate category. i think there should be some restrictions though. for example, it seems like beating link's awakening in 5 minutes due to massive glitches shouldn't be the only any% category for that game.

one idea i was kicking around in irc awhile ago was "traversal" versus "warping" glitches, only the latter given a separate category:
- traversal means the player navigates through the game, moving according to what the game's engine allows, following the general flow of the map/level/world. metroid prime's "secret worlds" are a good example of this. this would not be considered a separate category from other any% runs.
- warping means the player appears in a remote location on the map/level/world without physically traveling there. the link's awakening map glitch is a good example. this would get its own category for all games.

that's just an idea i had; interested to hear what others think.
Quote from arkarian:
one idea i was kicking around in irc awhile ago was "traversal" versus "warping" glitches, only the latter given a separate category:
That is exactly was I was thinking as well while contemplating on the debate some more. It's a brilliant distinction. It's very easy to explain, very easy to verify and a very precise distinction.

Let's make that one happen.
Master-88
I just wonder why my Iron Sword run not obsoleted votava run even magic keeping glitch seems very minor thats surely less cheat than secret worlds. But its still seperate category and its fine for me.

About secret worlds stuffs in MP 2 Echoes. Is 14% hard run more interesting than 21% hard mode run? 14% run not includes quadraxis fight and boss fights are most cool stuff in low-% runs. I like much more see crazy boss fight than borring wall crawls.

Quote:
Did you even try reading what I wrote?


I`ll try. But i rarery find point what you talking.