sinister1
so pro u don't even know
Edit: Zoid retracted his, I'll retract mine, it's only fair.
SDA Forum
Formerly known as Skullboy
Come on people. There's got to be a better way to handle this then pointing fingers and sending everyone to the the ninth circle of Hell.
OK. I know this thread is primarily about the Metroid Prime trilogy, but any decision made about this will probably affect all the other games as well.
Not everyone likes OOB runs. Not everyone likes runs that use no glitches or OOB. Some people believe that "fastest by any means necessary" should be the main rule, while others argue "Fastest by few parameters necessary."
As some people have said, every game is different, and therefore may need to be looked at with a slightly set of rules.
Here is a question: How far do we go with changing the current rules? How soon is it that the only low/any % of a game like ALTTP or OOT that is accepted can only go from the beginning of the game and skip all the dungeons and such, like some of TAS's? I have no problems with these types of runs, but I believe that the notion of any record run being completely disallowed becomes it doesn't spend the whole run in a glitched up realm ridiculous.
This may be a competiton, but there are many events held within it: Low%, Any%, 100%, etc. If someone wants to submit a run of Metroid Prime that doesn't use OOB, I say let them and give it the usual verification process. If someone submits one using OOB, do the same. But use discretion before freaking out like one type of run is going to obsolete all the others because of a journey through secret worlds. Tricks and discoveries may change, but this idea, whether you agree with it or not, shouldn't be tearing a hole in the community.
I know that I don't have any runs or such, and I know that I haven't been here (lurking or not) as others, but from the perspective of someone who likes what this group does, let's try to get this worked out under more mature means. Thank you.
OK. I know this thread is primarily about the Metroid Prime trilogy, but any decision made about this will probably affect all the other games as well.
Not everyone likes OOB runs. Not everyone likes runs that use no glitches or OOB. Some people believe that "fastest by any means necessary" should be the main rule, while others argue "Fastest by few parameters necessary."
As some people have said, every game is different, and therefore may need to be looked at with a slightly set of rules.
Here is a question: How far do we go with changing the current rules? How soon is it that the only low/any % of a game like ALTTP or OOT that is accepted can only go from the beginning of the game and skip all the dungeons and such, like some of TAS's? I have no problems with these types of runs, but I believe that the notion of any record run being completely disallowed becomes it doesn't spend the whole run in a glitched up realm ridiculous.
This may be a competiton, but there are many events held within it: Low%, Any%, 100%, etc. If someone wants to submit a run of Metroid Prime that doesn't use OOB, I say let them and give it the usual verification process. If someone submits one using OOB, do the same. But use discretion before freaking out like one type of run is going to obsolete all the others because of a journey through secret worlds. Tricks and discoveries may change, but this idea, whether you agree with it or not, shouldn't be tearing a hole in the community.
I know that I don't have any runs or such, and I know that I haven't been here (lurking or not) as others, but from the perspective of someone who likes what this group does, let's try to get this worked out under more mature means. Thank you.
guffaw
The problem isn't that some people support OoB and some don't. There's a general consensus of opinion that OoB should be allowed and in fact should have been allowed a long time ago.
Any rule change -- in this case, combining categories -- affects existing content retroactively, and the runners who produced that content can't do a damn thing about it.
Any rule change -- in this case, combining categories -- affects existing content retroactively, and the runners who produced that content can't do a damn thing about it.
.
You don't have to in this case, since your runs will (or would be if you don't have them taken down but for the sake of discussion..) be grandfathered, but I do understand your position and why you'd be frustrated. I'd honestly prefer if Secret World using runs were a separate category from the regular runs, not because they're any less of an OoB glitch in most cases but because of the Prime games history surrounding the acceptance of them.
(user is banned)
Mario shrimp vs. The Fuzionator
well, actually i have talked with sparky via pm and we have come to an agreement. i think i do accept the secret world runs to be on sda as the only one category and i think that's bad luck or a bad timing for me which i have to accept, i think i'll have to upload my new non-oob any% run to archive.org. and mike, actually i wouldn't really want my runs removed, i said that in an angry mood. actually i'd like to stay in this community. but actually i'm not going to go back to m2k2 mainly because of a few people there (no nate it's not because of you), and nate i'd like to apologize to you for what i said a while ago. will you accept my apology nate?
Master-88
I was vacation. Cool see Zoid is back in SDA.
Thats also cool he didn,t want remove all his runs.
Let see what will happen about rule change. Let admins decide it. Im not haved any troubles about it if it are ok Zoid & Djgrenola.
Otherwise im not like it. But let see what will happen. You guys are hear my opinion and im not are changed it. But this is your site Mike and you will decide it.
Thats cool see Zoid is back and his youtube channel is open too.
I´ll hope see it at least in speedrun collection. If this rule change will happen. I´ll hope see it in SDA too if quality are fast as Sparky or even faster.
Thats also cool he didn,t want remove all his runs.
Let see what will happen about rule change. Let admins decide it. Im not haved any troubles about it if it are ok Zoid & Djgrenola.
Otherwise im not like it. But let see what will happen. You guys are hear my opinion and im not are changed it. But this is your site Mike and you will decide it.
Thats cool see Zoid is back and his youtube channel is open too.
Quote:
Hey, even if your run wouldn't be accepted due to not using secret worlds, there's always the casual speedrun forum! You can still share your hard work on your run there.
I´ll hope see it at least in speedrun collection. If this rule change will happen. I´ll hope see it in SDA too if quality are fast as Sparky or even faster.
Weegee Time
Quote from DJGrenola:
I don't really care about the rule any more. Just take my runs down so I can get the hell out of here, permanently.
It honestly boggles my mind how bad a sport you're being about this. We should encourage better and more creative game play, not sulk about when someone finally does it and beats us.
guffaw
I said I didn't care about the rule. I said that I had great sympathy for Miles because his SS is awesome, and I'd give it a definite accept. Yet people are acting like I'm doing this because my run has been beaten, or accusing me of being a bad sport. Not surprising I'm angry, really. Nobody has listened to a single word I've said.
gamelogs.org
Quote from DJGrenola:
I said I didn't care about the rule. I said that I had great sympathy for Miles because his SS is awesome, and I'd give it a definite accept. Yet people are acting like I'm doing this because my run has been beaten, or accusing me of being a bad sport. Not surprising I'm angry, really. Nobody has listened to a single word I've said.
i think there's been a lack of communication as well as a lack of understanding. from what you wrote in your first post in this thread it looks like this is about nothing except the rule change. so while i know that's not the case from talking to you elsewhere, i don't blame anyone for misunderstanding where you're coming from since they've only heard you here. it helps to actually explain your position if you expect others to get it.
Weegee Time
Quote:
I am wondering what sane person would possibly want to spend months recording a run and submitting it to this site when they run the risk of having it made either illegal or obsolete two weeks later by a rule change over which they have no control?
So you're mad not because of this particular rule change, but because of any rule change that can occur at all. Again, mind boggled. Rules change all the time, it's part of life. You don't have to be happy about it, but you do have to accept it. And preferably, you should be happy about it, because the rules being changed allow for faster runs.
And if that is NOT your argument, then please articulate it better. I looked through the entire thread again, and I can't find any other argument you've made.
People being dicks to DJGrenola: stop being dicks to DJGrenola. He has given a lot to this site and deserves some politeness and respect.
Mike: You never said in your first post in this thread whether you plan to grandfather the entire category of non-secret worlds runs for Metroid Prime games, or just grandfather the currently existing runs (meaning no new submissions without SW would be accepted). The former is what we did for scripts in Half Life and Portal, for example, so I would've thought we'd be doing the same here? As has been pointed out, maintaining the non-SW category seems to make sense given the games' history, although I don't really know anything about MP personally.
DJGrenola: I've read all your posts and I have to agree with ark that I don't fully understand your grievance and I hope you'll clarify. Is the anger at the fact that you were the victim of a double standard, being forced to not use OOB in the past because of SDA rules (and thus not being free to make the run you wanted to make) only to have yours beaten now by a runner free to use OOB? I guess I can understand that, but I feel as though the blame lies with the stupid anti-OOB rule SDA had in the past - not with the fact that the rule is now being changed. Relative to you and some others in this thread, I'm a relative newcomer to SDA, but all the same I know that SDA has changed a lot since the days of Radix - not just new admins, but many new members of the community as well. Does the new SDA as it stands now really deserve the anger you are directing at it?
How do you think SDA should be handling this situation? You are a runner of the game these rules affect and an ex-admin, your opinion on general site matters and especially on these rules still carries weight here. What do you think is being done wrong and how best, right now, do you think we can fix it?
I haven't really crossed paths with you much during my time at SDA, probably because I only joined in 2007 and I'm a PC runner and don't know much about MP. I'm also still a bit bewildered about your sudden anger over this situation and why you feel this way. But at any rate, I know you have given much to the site and will be sad to see you go, especially like this.
P.S. Please, listen to the people who are requesting you think again about this. But ignore the arseholes, because they're arseholes.
Mike: You never said in your first post in this thread whether you plan to grandfather the entire category of non-secret worlds runs for Metroid Prime games, or just grandfather the currently existing runs (meaning no new submissions without SW would be accepted). The former is what we did for scripts in Half Life and Portal, for example, so I would've thought we'd be doing the same here? As has been pointed out, maintaining the non-SW category seems to make sense given the games' history, although I don't really know anything about MP personally.
DJGrenola: I've read all your posts and I have to agree with ark that I don't fully understand your grievance and I hope you'll clarify. Is the anger at the fact that you were the victim of a double standard, being forced to not use OOB in the past because of SDA rules (and thus not being free to make the run you wanted to make) only to have yours beaten now by a runner free to use OOB? I guess I can understand that, but I feel as though the blame lies with the stupid anti-OOB rule SDA had in the past - not with the fact that the rule is now being changed. Relative to you and some others in this thread, I'm a relative newcomer to SDA, but all the same I know that SDA has changed a lot since the days of Radix - not just new admins, but many new members of the community as well. Does the new SDA as it stands now really deserve the anger you are directing at it?
How do you think SDA should be handling this situation? You are a runner of the game these rules affect and an ex-admin, your opinion on general site matters and especially on these rules still carries weight here. What do you think is being done wrong and how best, right now, do you think we can fix it?
I haven't really crossed paths with you much during my time at SDA, probably because I only joined in 2007 and I'm a PC runner and don't know much about MP. I'm also still a bit bewildered about your sudden anger over this situation and why you feel this way. But at any rate, I know you have given much to the site and will be sad to see you go, especially like this.
P.S. Please, listen to the people who are requesting you think again about this. But ignore the arseholes, because they're arseholes.
Quote from Rakuen:
And preferably, you should be happy about it, because the rules being changed allow for faster runs.
I'm pretty sure this is what he's really taking issue with, it's a "beat runs at any cost" type of attitude, and he does not need to be happy about it and he doesn't need to accept it, as evidenced by the fact that he is requesting he runs be removed and wanting nothing more to do with the site.
It's somewhat of a philosophical break between what he sees as the current SDAer and himself. He doesn't like the idea of changing the rules because people want to see more runs beaten. It devalues the past records from runners who operated under a stricter set of rules, and possibly the runners themselves. DJ would prefer consistency in the rules over getting more runs up on the site. I'm not so sure he's wrong here, honestly.
I might not be completely right on what he really meant, of course, but the main idea is to get people to stop looking at this as though it's really about him and his runs because it isn't. He deserves more credit than that.
Though, the best course of action would be to take his runs down as he requested and just let him go as he wishes. No one is going to change his mind here, so just let him be done with it.
Weegee Time
Quote from tomatobob:
It's somewhat of a philosophical break between what he sees as the current SDAer and himself. He doesn't like the idea of changing the rules because people want to see more runs beaten. It devalues the past records from runners who operated under a stricter set of rules, and possibly the runners themselves. DJ would prefer consistency in the rules over getting more runs up on the site. I'm not so sure he's wrong here, honestly.
Okay, this I can see as valid and this is why I made a suggestion a few pages back. Make a hall of fame to keep track of the old records for games and their applicable links on archive.org. This way, people will always be recognized for their contribution to a game.
And really, no one's run gets devalued because someone else came up with a faster time, in my opinion. If it were not for those prior runs, the newer runs would never reach their level of excellence. They provide motivation to perform well and offer a wealth of experience for new runners to build from. I want to see runs beaten, and it's not to be spiteful. It's because I think we should have the very best runs available hosted here.
Quote:
I might not be completely right on what he really meant, of course, but the main idea is to get people to stop looking at this as though it's really about him and his runs because it isn't. He deserves more credit than that.
Well, he's made the issue personal. It will always be about him, at least to some extent.