N64 Banjo-Tooie any%/100%

2010-08-14 04:38:13 am

after some testing and a few raised eyebrows at SDA's new look, I can confirm that the taxi grab or w/e it's called DOES NOT work on the XBLA version.

it might work in a few very limited circumstances where the item in question is close enough or if the wall is thin enough such that Banjo's head reaches it.

Jacky Durand

2010-08-26 07:17:42 am

Wow, I didn't think you would ever do a new run, because I know from myself that it takes a lot of motivation to start a run of this length.

I have actually made a route for any %, but it just got too immense when I began covering the different Jinjo-patterns, which there could be 15-20 of. Does anybody know, if there is any way to examine these patterns with tool assistance like when they manipulate luck in TAS-runs?

I've said it before, Q, and I'll say it again - sub 4 hours for the leaderboards would be unbelieveable. I doubt that there's a category for it on SDA, but I'd watch it regardless if you decide to record it sometime.

I think I've found 15 minutes worth of improvements for my 4:27 run, but these come from sheer route-changes, because I don't think I can run any faster. So anything below 4:13 would be really impressive, at least to me.

KlydeStorm

Edit history:

KlydeStorm: 2010-08-26 09:47:21 am

KlydeStorm: 2010-08-26 09:46:24 am

2010-08-26 09:45:10 am

Quote from Jacky Durand:

I have actually made a route for any %, but it just got too immense when I began covering the different Jinjo-patterns, which there could be 15-20 of. Does anybody know, if there is any way to examine these patterns with tool assistance like when they manipulate luck in TAS-runs?

Jinjos are generated when you first start the data, so you can start the data, quit immediately, copy the data, play through while taking notes of every Jinjo color and location, then do the run on the extra data if you got a good Jinjo set up.

However, I'm thinking that doing that would most likely invalidate a Single Segment run. I would say it would. The data will have 3 seconds on it, if that at all matters.

Jacky Durand

2010-08-26 02:01:26 pm

At first my plan was exactly as you say: Start the file, do the first segment until I'm satisfied and then check Jinjo colors because I want to skip the Daddy T-rex one. But I also want to optimise the time to the limit and therefore find the optimal combination of Jinjos. I've got strong reason to believe that there are a certain number of combinations possible. So if I could get to skip say the Jinjo in the prison cells in GGM as well as the T-rex one it would be great.

It would be even more useful in a single segment to know the combinations because you could start the segment over if you could see from the first Jinjo's color, that it was a bad combination.

BluBotL

2011-01-22 03:37:31 am

Blu`BotL

Hello gentlemen (and ladies?), long-time lurker and casual speedrunner here. I have a lot of downtime right now since I've finished school and I'm not heading straight into university, so I've been going through some of my older games over the past few weeks. Naturally, I picked up Banjo-Tooie and found that framerate issues aside, I still remember the game perfectly and found an old 5:30 100% speedrun file which, as I recall, used a slightly modified version of Dragorn's 4:54 route. After rewatching Dragorn's run, I noticed a few places where time can easily be saved through superior optimisation, better routes and extra segments.

So, I guess I'm saying that I might start working on a full-on speed run. I'm confident that I can come up with a route and proper optimisation easily enough (plus I can record my runs with my brother's old Dazzle), so I guess all that I'm looking for are new tricks that have been discovered since 2007. I'll probably be aiming for 4:30 or better as my initial target, but that will probably change as I start testing my route.

I did a quick and dirty run over the last two days with my old route (which I found buried in the darkest recesses of my computer) which clocked in at 6:01. I died (unintentionally) about 15 times and lost over 40 minutes with those alone.

I'll be using the PAL N64 version (so no early GI trick among other things), and my untested, sketchy route is, give or take, 40 segments if you include saving & quitting after every puzzle and the really, really short things (which seems to save about 20 seconds per segment on average). I haven't tested a couple of the tricks I found here (specifically Taxi Grab), but I can easily do those at any time.

It'll probably take me about two to three hours to complete each major segment based on the couple optimised segments I made, and there's ~20 of them, so it'll be a couple weeks' work. Thank goodness this game has a save copy function q:

Hello gentlemen (and ladies?), long-time lurker and casual speedrunner here. I have a lot of downtime right now since I've finished school and I'm not heading straight into university, so I've been going through some of my older games over the past few weeks. Naturally, I picked up Banjo-Tooie and found that framerate issues aside, I still remember the game perfectly and found an old 5:30 100% speedrun file which, as I recall, used a slightly modified version of Dragorn's 4:54 route. After rewatching Dragorn's run, I noticed a few places where time can easily be saved through superior optimisation, better routes and extra segments.

So, I guess I'm saying that I might start working on a full-on speed run. I'm confident that I can come up with a route and proper optimisation easily enough (plus I can record my runs with my brother's old Dazzle), so I guess all that I'm looking for are new tricks that have been discovered since 2007.  I'll probably be aiming for 4:30 or better as my initial target, but that will probably change as I start testing my route.

I did a quick and dirty run over the last two days with my old route (which I found buried in the darkest recesses of my computer) which clocked in at 6:01. I died (unintentionally) about 15 times and lost over 40 minutes with those alone.

I'll be using the PAL N64 version (so no early GI trick among other things), and my untested, sketchy route is, give or take, 40 segments if you include saving & quitting after every puzzle and the really, really short things (which seems to save about 20 seconds per segment on average). I haven't tested a couple of the tricks I found here (specifically Taxi Grab), but I can easily do those at any time.

It'll probably take me about two to three hours to complete each major segment based on the couple optimised segments I made, and there's ~20 of them, so it'll be a couple weeks' work. Thank goodness this game has a save copy function q:

KlydeStorm

2011-01-22 07:30:32 am

Taxi Grab doesn't work on PAL or XBLA, unfortunately.

As far as trick discoveries go, it's pretty much nothing. Banjo-Tooie is barren as far as speedrunning goes.

Since you're doing 100% (if I read your post right), you won't need to worry about Jinjo colors unless you're planning on going to some worlds a few Jiggies earlier for some reason.

Jacky Durand

2011-01-23 03:22:49 am

Quote from KlydeStorm:

As far as trick discoveries go, it's pretty much nothing. Banjo-Tooie is barren as far as speedrunning goes.

Well, not entirely true. It's been a while since I played the game, but I recall finding some tricks. Then I got a bit discouraged by the Taxi Grab trick since I am playing the PAL version.

First of all it's a good idea to have a strategy for each boss. You can get minutes ahead of Dragorn just from well-executed battles with Weldar, Mr. Patch and Terry especially.

And there are so many uses of the CK egg that Dragorn doesn't take advantage of.

- With a well-aimed shot you can get the Tintup Jiggy in GI without even doing the battle. Just stand on the beam to the far right of the battle area and aim for the lamp.

- The Jinjo in GGM on top of the water tank also just needs a CK egg to avoid getting it from JRL.

- In CCL instead of firing a CK egg from the top of the trashcan to blow up one of the safe's numbers, just jump into the bottle inside the trashcan with Clockwork Kazooie from the top of the block with the Jinjo on it.

That's all I remember right now. Hope it's useful!

[quote="KlydeStorm"]
As far as trick discoveries go, it's pretty much nothing. Banjo-Tooie is barren as far as speedrunning goes.
[/quote]

Well, not entirely true. It's been a while since I played the game, but I recall finding some tricks. Then I got a bit discouraged by the Taxi Grab trick since I am playing the PAL version.

First of all it's a good idea to have a strategy for each boss. You can get minutes ahead of Dragorn just from well-executed battles with Weldar, Mr. Patch and Terry especially.

And there are so many uses of the CK egg that Dragorn doesn't take advantage of.

- With a well-aimed shot you can get the Tintup Jiggy in GI without even doing the battle. Just stand on the beam to the far right of the battle area and aim for the lamp.

- The Jinjo in GGM on top of the water tank also just needs a CK egg to avoid getting it from JRL.

- In CCL instead of firing a CK egg from the top of the trashcan to blow up one of the safe's numbers, just jump into the bottle inside the trashcan with Clockwork Kazooie from the top of the block with the Jinjo on it.

That's all I remember right now. Hope it's useful!

LLCoolDave

2011-01-23 03:30:45 am

I'm not sure if it is at all useful in an any% run but you can enter grunty industries without using chuffy in NTSC:

(You just have to get hit while in the screen transition with the clockwork kazooie). Didn't remember if I mentioned this before in this thread so I might as well do it now.

BluBotL

2011-01-23 03:51:23 am

Blu`BotL

I did a quick test of a few tricks and for some reason I can't do the glitched grip grab onto the Jinjo alcove in JRL. I'm sure I've done it before, but I spent an hour trying to do it again and no luck.

Taxi Grab and the early GI glitches are both busted for PAL. I'm seriously considering getting an NTSC N64 just so I can use those time savers, because they'll be worth 5-10 minutes - enough to possibly get below 4:30.

Thanks for the tips Jacky. I already knew the CKE-related ones, but I think you're right in that I need to probably practice in Replay Mode before I start each boss segment. I am pretty much fine against the majority of bosses, but Patch, Terry and Fak Fak are quite luck driven (specifically, beating Patch from the ground, 2-phasing Terry and getting all of Fak Fak's boils to line up properly).

My goal is to have this run looking almost as good as a TAS would, at least in terms of entertainment.

Jacky Durand

2011-01-23 07:52:28 am

Dependent on how long your segments are, these bosses will drive you mad, but I think at least your Patch and Terry strategies are a necessity, since they are both skillbased, while Fak-Fak is pure luck.

I never tried Mr. Patch from the ground, but it goes without saying that this will take some effort and a whole lot of restarts. Terry is simply terrible - hope the rest of the segment with Terry is easy executeable and not too long, because I only hit it once every 50 tries.

The grab in JRL can be done in all formats, but I can't do it consistently either. Maybe you could go there later to get it with a CK egg e.g. when you go there to rescue Tiptups baby?

BluBotL

2011-01-23 04:50:10 pm

Blu`BotL

I'm pretty sure there's a good strategy for beating Patch on the ground, but yeah, 2-phasing Terry is very difficult. I can frequently do 16 damage (or however much it is) in one phase, but never for 2, it seems.

I'm not too concerned about restarting a lot. Just so long as I don't have to completely restart the run afterward (:

I was thinking of doing that Jinjo late anyhow. JRL is annoying, because my preliminary route has me getting that Jinjo and Fak Fak in the same segment... and if the Jinjo is a pain in the ass to get, then Fak Fak will only complicate matters.

BluBotL

Edit history:

BluBotL: 2011-01-29 03:23:02 am

2011-01-29 03:21:33 am

Blu`BotL

Hello again.

I've been considering the prospect of an Any% run, especially after finding that a number of NTSC-only tricks would basically make any 100% run immediately improvable by over 10 minutes - perhaps putting it under the 4:30 goal I've set. After some quick thought-experiments, I came up with a quick list of jiggies I'm likely to skip:

MT:
- Kickball

WW:
- Dodgems
- Saucer of Peril
- Patch

TL:
- Styracosaurs
- Oogle Boogles
- Terry's Eggs

GI:
- Weldar
- Skivvy Workers
- Under the Toxic Waste
- Clinkers
- Quality Control

HP:
- Sabreman
- Kickball
- Aliens
- Dragons

CC:
- Canary Mary
- Cheese Wedge
- Mr. Fit

That's 20 jiggies. I would not skip any jinjos (the Big T-Rex jinjo is the only one I would have skipped regardless; the Cheese Wedge jinjo takes about 20 seconds with a CK Egg with Kazooie solo on the way to the Trash Can).

This set of skips would allow me to skip:
- Wumba in MT
- A lot of Mumbo time in TL (I'm basically warping to Wumba's, using Enlarge then going back)
- Mumbo and Wumba in GI, making that level incredibly simple and fast
- Mumbo in HP, plus two annoying boss battles (I'll be on 5 health, so Chilly Willy can be annoying)
- Mumbo in CC (plus I'll only need to do one of the skulls)
- Mumbo on the Cliff Top
- Sack Pack (and therefore 240 notes)

Jinjos are very quick and easy to get, and rarely require any time-consuming puzzle solving or battles, so it's a simple matter of just using CK Eggs wisely.

I'd estimate this run to be about 3:15 or lower; each cut jiggy saves between 3 and 10 minutes alone, plus there's the lack of Cheato Pages (which do frequently require time-consuming puzzles) and Hollow Honeycombs. A lot of time and frustration is saved with segments, so I might start with a segmented run to get an idea of what kind of things to watch for in a SS run and get some decent practice.

Hello again.

I've been considering the prospect of an Any% run, especially after finding that a number of NTSC-only tricks would basically make any 100% run immediately improvable by over 10 minutes - perhaps putting it under the 4:30 goal I've set. After some quick thought-experiments, I came up with a quick list of jiggies I'm likely to skip:

MT:
- Kickball

WW: 
- Dodgems
- Saucer of Peril
- Patch

TL:
- Styracosaurs
- Oogle Boogles
- Terry's Eggs

GI:
- Weldar
- Skivvy Workers
- Under the Toxic Waste
- Clinkers
- Quality Control

HP:
- Sabreman
- Kickball
- Aliens
- Dragons

CC:
- Canary Mary
- Cheese Wedge
- Mr. Fit

That's 20 jiggies. I would not skip any jinjos (the Big T-Rex jinjo is the only one I would have skipped regardless; the Cheese Wedge jinjo takes about 20 seconds with a CK Egg with Kazooie solo on the way to the Trash Can).

This set of skips would allow me to skip:
- Wumba in MT
- A lot of Mumbo time in TL (I'm basically warping to Wumba's, using Enlarge then going back)
- Mumbo and Wumba in GI, making that level incredibly simple and fast
- Mumbo in HP, plus two annoying boss battles (I'll be on 5 health, so Chilly Willy can be annoying)
- Mumbo in CC (plus I'll only need to do one of the skulls)
- Mumbo on the Cliff Top
- Sack Pack (and therefore 240 notes)

Jinjos are very quick and easy to get, and rarely require any time-consuming puzzle solving or battles, so it's a simple matter of just using CK Eggs wisely.

I'd estimate this run to be about 3:15 or lower; each cut jiggy saves between 3 and 10 minutes alone, plus there's the lack of Cheato Pages (which [b]do[/b] frequently require time-consuming puzzles) and Hollow Honeycombs. A lot of time and frustration is saved with segments, so I might start with a segmented run to get an idea of what kind of things to watch for in a SS run and get some decent practice.

Jacky Durand

2011-01-30 03:43:51 am

Well I must say those jiggy skips look pretty good! And you only listed 19 of them so there is room for one more. The only one I don't like is Canary Mary. She takes just under 2 minutes GGM included. Compare that to the kids in WW or the one lenghty Jinjo in TDL. They both take well over 3 minutes. You could even risk that one of the kids is in the Dodgems lobby. Definitely skip that!

BluBotL

2011-01-30 04:04:18 am

Blu`BotL

I forgot to add the Star Spinner, which would round the list out at 20, sorry about that. Taking the suggestion of Mike89, earlier in the thread; it's very true what he said, especially when the only thing I'd be using Mumbo for is that specific jiggy.

I know that Mary takes barely any time at all, but the thing is that getting her to go to CC requires winning the second race in GGM, which takes another 2-3 minutes, along with a lengthy and annoying cutscene. My method for picking jiggies to skip was comparing the time requirement to going through the Ordnance Storage (which is about 2 minutes, and one of the last few jiggies which I included in my list). Just doing the GGM race takes more time than it would to complete the Ordnance Storage run, so I immediately cut it.

The kids in Witchyworld aren't a big deal. The only lengthy part is taking the fat kid back with Banjo solo. Their positions are determined when you first enter the level, so all I need to do is go in, do my run, copy and scout the level to find the kids. Optimally, the fries kid will be in the Crazy Castle, the fat kid will be in the Inferno and the brat kid anywhere but the Dodgems.

I've set out a route which uses 30 segments, including a glitch which saves a few seconds after Jingaling along with resetting after opening each level. It's a bit scrappy (I really don't like having to transform for one or two specific things halfway across a level), so I'll record a run or two (starting tomorrow) to test quality plus some side-by-side comparisons to check what I'm doing well and otherwise. I'll probably end up with about 670 notes (10 more than necessary), skipping all of CC, most of HP and a few others.

After some quick tests, I found that my route for HP requires a health upgrade (so that I can survive the jump from the train switch to the split-up switch above the boiling waterfall). I'll just go to Honey B. before I head to JRL, since the Crazy Castle honeycomb is literally right in my path.

I forgot to add the Star Spinner, which would round the list out at 20, sorry about that. Taking the suggestion of Mike89, earlier in the thread; it's very true what he said, especially when the only thing I'd be using Mumbo for is that specific jiggy.

I know that Mary takes barely any time at all, but the thing is that getting her to go to CC requires winning the second race in GGM, which takes another 2-3 minutes, along with a lengthy and annoying cutscene. My method for picking jiggies to skip was comparing the time requirement to going through the Ordnance Storage (which is about 2 minutes, and one of the last few jiggies which I included in my list). Just doing the GGM race takes more time than it would to complete the Ordnance Storage run, so I immediately cut it.

The kids in Witchyworld aren't a big deal. The only lengthy part is taking the fat kid back with Banjo solo. Their positions are determined when you first enter the level, so all I need to do is go in, do my run, copy and scout the level to find the kids. Optimally, the fries kid will be in the Crazy Castle, the fat kid will be in the Inferno and the brat kid anywhere but the Dodgems.

I've set out a route which uses 30 segments, including a glitch which saves a few seconds after Jingaling along with resetting after opening each level. It's a bit scrappy (I really don't like having to transform for one or two specific things halfway across a level), so I'll record a run or two (starting tomorrow) to test quality plus some side-by-side comparisons to check what I'm doing well and otherwise. I'll probably end up with about 670 notes (10 more than necessary), skipping all of CC, most of HP and a few others.

After some quick tests, I found that my route for HP requires a health upgrade (so that I can survive the jump from the train switch to the split-up switch above the boiling waterfall). I'll just go to Honey B. before I head to JRL, since the Crazy Castle honeycomb is literally right in my path.

Jacky Durand

2011-01-30 04:32:19 am

Remember that it's the in-game timer that decides your time. Canary Mary's cutscenes doesn't count toward that and trust me when I say that the two races combined takes just under 2 minutes on the in-game timer. You'll even get lined up for the ordnance storage after finishing Canary Mary.

As for the kids you're forgetting two mayor concerns: you have to get fries and burgers which take forever due to the lenghty dialogues, and you need another move to carry Fat Kid around which means you have to revisit Witchyworld - which isn't required otherwise. I would be surprised if all these things combined would take under 5 minutes.

As I timed these jiggys I found out that the magical limit time for making it worth taking a jiggy is around 3 minutes. Star Spinner takes around 2 minutes including Mumbo, and why not go for the fastest? Again the TDL Jinjo is around 3:30.

And a tip for the HFP jump - instead of making the long jump with Banjo, which requires all of his health, you can just jump straight down, do the pack attack, land on the platform, and jump to the switch from there. Way faster than getting extra health from Honey B.

Remember that it's the in-game timer that decides your time. Canary Mary's cutscenes doesn't count toward that and trust me when I say that the two races combined takes just under 2 minutes on the in-game timer. You'll even get lined up for the ordnance storage after finishing Canary Mary.

As for the kids you're forgetting two mayor concerns: you have to get fries and burgers which take forever due to the lenghty dialogues, and you need another move to carry Fat Kid around which means you have to revisit Witchyworld - which isn't required otherwise. I would be surprised if all these things combined would take under 5 minutes.

As I timed these jiggys I found out that the magical limit time for making it worth taking a jiggy is around 3 minutes. Star Spinner takes around 2 minutes including Mumbo, and why not go for the fastest? Again the TDL Jinjo is around 3:30.

And a tip for the HFP jump - instead of making the long jump with Banjo, which requires all of his health, you can just jump straight down, do the pack attack, land on the platform, and jump to the switch from there. Way faster than getting extra health from Honey B.

BluBotL

2011-01-30 04:56:03 am

Blu`BotL

I'm doing this on the N64 version, so getting fries/burgers take 10 seconds each (or thereabouts). If the kids themselves are right on my route (and they will be if I get the fat kid in the Inferno and the fries kid in the Crazy Castle), this will be basically negligible.

I haven't actually done tests with the timer on those races, because I've been doing most of my tests on my 100% file or in Replay mode. I still don't like having to do Mary, regardless; the CC race is very annoying to do at/near the end of a segment because they're so tiring. I can do 3 Mary races in CC before my arm starts to cramp, so that means no more than 3 CC segments in a row before having to take a long break.

Revisiting Witchyworld, while annoying, isn't all bad: the Inferno is much faster with Leg Spring, as is getting to the Cave of Horrors to let Gobi and the jinjo out. Also, I can climb much faster up the Dive of Death by doing pack jumps (which is more reliable than beak busting up the ladder, especially since I'd probably die if I missed the ladder).

I agree with you about the TL jinjo. I would miss it, like I said, but the problem is not so much the time but the planning. Until I actually get there - unless I actually play through to TL - I have no idea which jinjo family it belongs to. If it's from one of the higher families, I might have wasted a lot of time on jinjos that will never be useful. On the other hand, if it's the White or one of the Oranges, it's still a lot quicker than the majority of the skipped jiggies.

The jiggies I'm most likely to swap at this point are the two GI jiggies past the Crushers. Mumbo can warp straight there and Quality Control + the Clinkers take 2 minutes each (though Quality Control needs Glide to be that quick).

Regardless, I'll do a test run and see what kinds of times I can come up with. If there are jiggies that I've misjudged, I'll switch them around.

I'm doing this on the N64 version, so getting fries/burgers take 10 seconds each (or thereabouts). If the kids themselves are right on my route (and they will be if I get the fat kid in the Inferno and the fries kid in the Crazy Castle), this will be basically negligible.

I haven't actually done tests with the timer on those races, because I've been doing most of my tests on my 100% file or in Replay mode. I still don't like having to do Mary, regardless; the CC race is very annoying to do at/near the end of a segment because they're so tiring. I can do 3 Mary races in CC before my arm starts to cramp, so that means no more than 3 CC segments in a row before having to take a long break.

Revisiting Witchyworld, while annoying, isn't all bad: the Inferno is much faster with Leg Spring, as is getting to the Cave of Horrors to let Gobi and the jinjo out. Also, I can climb much faster up the Dive of Death by doing pack jumps (which is more reliable than beak busting up the ladder, especially since I'd probably die if I missed the ladder).

I agree with you about the TL jinjo. I would miss it, like I said, but the problem is not so much the time but the planning. Until I actually get there - unless I actually play through to TL - I have no idea which jinjo family it belongs to. If it's from one of the higher families, I might have wasted a lot of time on jinjos that will never be useful. On the other hand, if it's the White or one of the Oranges, it's still a lot quicker than the majority of the skipped jiggies.

The jiggies I'm most likely to swap at this point are the two GI jiggies past the Crushers. Mumbo can warp straight there and Quality Control + the Clinkers take 2 minutes each (though Quality Control needs Glide to be that quick).

Regardless, I'll do a test run and see what kinds of times I can come up with. If there are jiggies that I've misjudged, I'll switch them around.

Jacky Durand

2011-01-30 05:18:59 am

Well I'm not going to argue against the Kids jiggy anymore, you just have to find out for yourself when playing, that it's just not worth it.

I understand your concern with Canary Mary. I wouldn't mind if you skipped that one.

As for the TDL Jinjo the obvious solution would be:
- Do your first segment to perfection.
- Copy the file.
- Find out all of the Jinjo's colours on that one file.
- Make route adjustments and remove all Jinjos that are the same colour as the TDL one.
- Copy the first file again and start running.

I am 90 % certain that the TDL can't be either white or orange because I believe there is a limited number of Jinjo combinations.

The last thing you would do is include the Crusher-Jiggies in GI. You're right that it's fast to get there with Mumbo, but only after you've reached the 4th floor, which is a long way. On top of that there's the switch at the end of the crushers which both Banjo and Kazooie has to reach separately. Not to mention the battery you need to open the door to the Quality control. Don't go there!

Well I'm not going to argue against the Kids jiggy anymore, you just have to find out for yourself when playing, that it's just not worth it.

I understand your concern with Canary Mary. I wouldn't mind if you skipped that one.

As for the TDL Jinjo the obvious solution would be: 
- Do your first segment to perfection. 
- Copy the file.
- Find out all of the Jinjo's colours on that one file.
- Make route adjustments and remove all Jinjos that are the same colour as the TDL one.
- Copy the first file again and start running.

I am 90 % certain that the TDL can't be either white or orange because I believe there is a limited number of Jinjo combinations.

The last thing you would do is include the Crusher-Jiggies in GI. You're right that it's fast to get there with Mumbo, but only after you've reached the 4th floor, which is a long way. On top of that there's the switch at the end of the crushers which both Banjo and Kazooie has to reach separately. Not to mention the battery you need to open the door to the Quality control. Don't go there!

BluBotL

2011-01-30 03:35:11 pm

Blu`BotL

This is the dilemma I faced in picking out these jiggies. There are about 24 jiggies which take forever to get (more if you include jinjos), and I can only skip 20 of them.

If I were to skip that jinjo, I'd also be skipping a number of others - others which might only take a few seconds to pick up. Not only that, I'd be leaving, potentially, over 10 minutes of the run to pure luck which can't be beaten with segmentation; if I get super lucky and a black jinjo is in the cage, with all the other black jinjos are in annoying, hard-to-reach spots, then I get a free ~10 minutes. If it's, say, a brown jinjo and the other 3 brown jinjos are within easy reach elsewhere in the run, then I'm only gaining a few seconds. If I'm going to skip one jinjo, I'm going to skip them all (except perhaps the white through yellow ones).

Maybe I should do that. There are a bunch of jiggies on the following list which could be worth the trade-off...

Mayan Kickball - Takes about 4 minutes, is incredibly random and can easily mess up a run.

Dodgem Dome - Requires Mumbo and an extra trip with the Van. Takes 4 minutes once inside.
Saucer of Peril - Setting up for this takes about 3-4 minutes, and the actual minigame is over 5.
Star Spinner - Only takes about 2 minutes to get the jiggy along with Mumbo, however if I were to use this, I would be using Mumbo solely for this jiggy.
Mr Patch - Can take over 3 minutes, not to mention a lengthy cutscene. One of the most frustrating and random fights in the game.

Styracosaurus family - While the lost child is easily picked up, the sick one requires a trip to the Cliff Top (and about 3 minutes of setup) and the small one requires Mumbo to take a long, slow walk to the pad.
Oogle Boogle Tribe - Requires Mumbo and the Big T-Rex and a lot of setup in WW.
Terry's Eggs - About 5-6 minutes, not to mention requiring Mumbo and the Big T-Rex.

Toxic Waste - Need to beat Weldar, which isn't hard in itself, but needs both Wumba and Mumbo.
Clinkers - Needs Mumbo and 4th floor access, neither of which anywhere on my route.
Quality Control - Same as above, but I'd also need a battery.
Skivvy Workers - Requires about 5 minutes with the Washing Machine, plus some setup.
Weldar - See "Toxic Waste".

Sabreman - Requires Mumbo and 3 separate trips.
Colosseum Kickball - Another 4 minutes, plus the 4 already required to do the Mayan Kickball.
Aliens - Requires Mumbo (twice) and prevents me from getting Glide when I want it.
Dragons - While the fights themselves only take 2 minutes all up, I'd have to go completely out of my way to get to the flight pad (the only thing over there is Mumbo), and I'd have to get the CCBs out of order.

Canary Mary in CC - Frustrating, tiresome and requires about 2 minutes of setup in GGM.
Cheese Wedge - Requires Mumbo, planting a bean and hatching a Floatus Floatium, i.e. a lot of setup.
Mr Fit - Same as above, but with 2 extra minigames to do.

Perhaps the Star Spinner is a good idea, replacing Boggy's kids. Doing WW in one run is definitely appealing, but Leg Spring simply makes the Inferno and the Cave of Horrors so much faster... Since I need either the flight pad or the CCBs to get to the Train Station, the dragons could easily be done at some point. I'm not concerned about their constant harassment because it's easy to avoid and I'll be under cover a lot of the time anyway.

This is the dilemma I faced in picking out these jiggies. There are about 24 jiggies which take forever to get (more if you include jinjos), and I can only skip 20 of them.

If I were to skip that jinjo, I'd also be skipping a number of others - others which might only take a few seconds to pick up. Not only that, I'd be leaving, potentially, over 10 minutes of the run to pure luck which can't be beaten with segmentation; if I get super lucky and a black jinjo is in the cage, with all the other black jinjos are in annoying, hard-to-reach spots, then I get a free ~10 minutes. If it's, say, a brown jinjo and the other 3 brown jinjos are within easy reach elsewhere in the run, then I'm only gaining a few seconds. If I'm going to skip one jinjo, I'm going to skip them all (except perhaps the white through yellow ones).

Maybe I should do that. There are a bunch of jiggies on the following list which could be worth the trade-off...

Mayan Kickball - Takes about 4 minutes, is incredibly random and can easily mess up a run.

Dodgem Dome - Requires Mumbo and an extra trip with the Van. Takes 4 minutes once inside.
Saucer of Peril - Setting up for this takes about 3-4 minutes, and the actual minigame is over 5.
Star Spinner - Only takes about 2 minutes to get the jiggy along with Mumbo, however if I were to use this, I would be using Mumbo solely for this jiggy.
Mr Patch - Can take over 3 minutes, not to mention a lengthy cutscene. One of the most frustrating and random fights in the game.

Styracosaurus family - While the lost child is easily picked up, the sick one requires a trip to the Cliff Top (and about 3 minutes of setup) and the small one requires Mumbo to take a long, slow walk to the pad.
Oogle Boogle Tribe - Requires Mumbo and the Big T-Rex and a lot of setup in WW.
Terry's Eggs - About 5-6 minutes, not to mention requiring Mumbo and the Big T-Rex.

Toxic Waste - Need to beat Weldar, which isn't hard in itself, but needs both Wumba and Mumbo.
Clinkers - Needs Mumbo and 4th floor access, neither of which anywhere on my route.
Quality Control - Same as above, but I'd also need a battery.
Skivvy Workers - Requires about 5 minutes with the Washing Machine, plus some setup.
Weldar - See "Toxic Waste".

Sabreman - Requires Mumbo and 3 separate trips.
Colosseum Kickball - Another 4 minutes, plus the 4 already required to do the Mayan Kickball.
Aliens - Requires Mumbo (twice) and prevents me from getting Glide when I want it.
Dragons - While the fights themselves only take 2 minutes all up, I'd have to go completely out of my way to get to the flight pad (the only thing over there is Mumbo), and I'd have to get the CCBs out of order.

Canary Mary in CC - Frustrating, tiresome and requires about 2 minutes of setup in GGM.
Cheese Wedge - Requires Mumbo, planting a bean and hatching a Floatus Floatium, i.e. a lot of setup.
Mr Fit - Same as above, but with 2 extra minigames to do.

Perhaps the Star Spinner is a good idea, replacing Boggy's kids. Doing WW in one run is definitely appealing, but Leg Spring simply makes the Inferno and the Cave of Horrors so much faster... Since I need either the flight pad or the CCBs to get to the Train Station, the dragons could easily be done at some point. I'm not concerned about their constant harassment because it's easy to avoid and I'll be under cover a lot of the time anyway.

mike89

2011-01-30 05:19:33 pm

SEGA Junkie

You can skip one Jinjo and randomness won't be a factor, because you're guaranteed 8 Jiggies from Jinjos if you skip exactly one.

I did some timings on this stuff a while ago and found what I was almost certain were the best 20 Jiggies to skip. I remember skipping 5 Jiggies in Witchyworld, basically anything that required Mumbo or Wumba was out.

Comparing to your list (I don't remember the entirety of mine, sorry):
* Amazingly (and annoyingly), Canary Mary in CCL is worth it. I timed it's marginal effect on the run to be slightly under 3 minutes, which was about my cutoff for a Jiggy.
* I may or may not have skipped Ordnance Storage, but that might just be because I'm not very good at it. I ran a timing on Dragorn's run to try and work out how much time it is on its own and it was about 2:40, but as mentioned my lack of FPS skills could push that over 3 very easily.

Zeupar

2011-01-30 08:09:49 pm

Sonical!

BluBotL

2011-01-30 09:04:40 pm

Blu`BotL

Quote from mike89:

You can skip one Jinjo and randomness won't be a factor, because you're guaranteed 8 Jiggies from Jinjos if you skip exactly one.

I did some timings on this stuff a while ago and found what I was almost certain were the best 20 Jiggies to skip. I remember skipping 5 Jiggies in Witchyworld, basically anything that required Mumbo or Wumba was out.

Comparing to your list (I don't remember the entirety of mine, sorry):
* Amazingly (and annoyingly), Canary Mary in CCL is worth it. I timed it's marginal effect on the run to be slightly under 3 minutes, which was about my cutoff for a Jiggy.
* I may or may not have skipped Ordnance Storage, but that might just be because I'm not very good at it. I ran a timing on Dragorn's run to try and work out how much time it is on its own and it was about 2:40, but as mentioned my lack of FPS skills could push that over 3 very easily.

The problem is the (potentially) 8 jinjos that I would skip. Skipping them could save anywhere from 5 seconds to 3 minutes; the best case scenario is that the TL jinjo is black, and the same colour as the GI Water Storage + Cliff Top + Cheese Wedge + a couple of other jinjos. The worst case scenario is that it's white (or anything with less than 4 others in the family) and its siblings are in places such as the Plateau, Jade Snake Grove, etc. I would save over 10 extra minutes (on top of the time saved by skipping Mumbo in TL) by not having to get the 10 slowest jinjos in the game, while I would only save a few seconds otherwise. This is why I'd prefer to skip all or none.

As I said before, while Mary might be faster than some of my other jiggies, she's RSI inducing and I'm not really interested in haphazardly taping spoons to my controller mid-run just to beat her more efficiently. I'm not sure; it might be worth it to skip Mumbo in WW.

Regarding Ordnance Storage... Yeah, I'm doing a test run and it seems that I am abysmal at the first person sections (I was timing based off Dragorn's run also). Too many 360/PS3 FPS games I think s:

I did some side-by-side comparisons and found that, without doubt, jumping in talon trot is faster (by about 4-5%, more up hills), as is the alternate method of reaching the Wooded Hollow. I was 1 second faster jumping than running to Jingaling's castle, and 5 seconds faster doing the long jump to the alternate Wooded Hollow entrance.

I did Jacky's trick to get the Ssslumber jiggy quickly, and... well, I got the jiggy, but also woke him up, which put me in an unskippable cutscene where nothing happened for something like 20 seconds. Aside from that, my MT route seems strong. It's 3 segments - one from start -> Golden Goliath, another from Grip Grab -> Targitzan, and the final one later in the game before I do GI to clean up the rest.

The video above mightn't be useful on N64 (since you can just skip the text and be closer to the running shoes), but I could see it saving some time on Xbox. My only concern is that it might trigger the cutscene when you return to get the faster swimming necessary for JRL.

[quote="mike89"]You can skip one Jinjo and randomness won't be a factor, because you're guaranteed 8 Jiggies from Jinjos if you skip exactly one.

I did some timings on this stuff a while ago and found what I was almost certain were the best 20 Jiggies to skip. I remember skipping 5 Jiggies in Witchyworld, basically anything that required Mumbo or Wumba was out.

Comparing to your list (I don't remember the entirety of mine, sorry):
* Amazingly (and annoyingly), Canary Mary in CCL is worth it. I timed it's marginal effect on the run to be slightly under 3 minutes, which was about my cutoff for a Jiggy.
* I may or may not have skipped Ordnance Storage, but that might just be because I'm not very good at it. I ran a timing on Dragorn's run to try and work out how much time it is on its own and it was about 2:40, but as mentioned my lack of FPS skills could push that over 3 very easily.[/quote]

The problem is the (potentially) 8 jinjos that I would skip. Skipping them could save anywhere from 5 seconds to 3 minutes; the best case scenario is that the TL jinjo is black, and the same colour as the GI Water Storage + Cliff Top + Cheese Wedge + a couple of other jinjos. The worst case scenario is that it's white (or anything with less than 4 others in the family) and its siblings are in places such as the Plateau, Jade Snake Grove, etc. I would save over 10 extra minutes (on top of the time saved by skipping Mumbo in TL) by not having to get the 10 slowest jinjos in the game, while I would only save a few seconds otherwise. This is why I'd prefer to skip all or none.

As I said before, while Mary might be faster than some of my other jiggies, she's RSI inducing and I'm not really interested in haphazardly taping spoons to my controller mid-run just to beat her more efficiently. I'm not sure; it might be worth it to skip Mumbo in WW.

Regarding Ordnance Storage... Yeah, I'm doing a test run and it seems that I am abysmal at the first person sections (I was timing based off Dragorn's run also). Too many 360/PS3 FPS games I think s:

I did some side-by-side comparisons and found that, without doubt, jumping in talon trot is faster (by about 4-5%, more up hills), as is the alternate method of reaching the Wooded Hollow. I was 1 second faster jumping than running to Jingaling's castle, and 5 seconds faster doing the long jump to the alternate Wooded Hollow entrance.

I did Jacky's trick to get the Ssslumber jiggy quickly, and... well, I got the jiggy, but also woke him up, which put me in an unskippable cutscene where nothing happened for something like 20 seconds. Aside from that, my MT route seems strong. It's 3 segments - one from start -> Golden Goliath, another from Grip Grab -> Targitzan, and the final one later in the game before I do GI to clean up the rest.

The video above mightn't be useful on N64 (since you can just skip the text and be closer to the running shoes), but I could see it saving some time on Xbox. My only concern is that it might trigger the cutscene when you return to get the faster swimming necessary for JRL.

leftysheroes

2011-01-30 11:04:57 pm

I have a idea you could use to remove the luck factor involving the jinjos.

Assuming that the positions/colors are determined once you start a new file[I have never tested this but it seems to be a reasonable assumption] make the first segment consist of only Spiral Mountain and Klungo 1. After doing that copy the file and use the open all levels code to scout ahead to see of the jinjo positions are favorable or not.

If it were me I would rather do this than risk having to restart a promising run due to bad jinjo luck.

RingRush

2011-01-31 01:32:02 am

You guys are going too far in segment 1. For segment 1, save and quit immediately after starting the game. Then, as lefty suggested, open all levels, superbanjo, and scout. If you have favorable jinjo positions (and kid positions if you end up doing that), then segment 2 will be Klungo.

Jacky Durand

2011-01-31 02:53:42 am

Quote from RingRush:

You guys are going too far in segment 1. For segment 1, save and quit immediately after starting the game. Then, as lefty suggested, open all levels, superbanjo, and scout. If you have favorable jinjo positions (and kid positions if you end up doing that), then segment 2 will be Klungo.

While I think this is a great idea, it also takes a couple of seconds before you can actually pause the game to save and quit. I know those seconds can easily be gained by manipulating the Jinjos, but it would look like a waste of time. The same is true for saving just after you enter Jinjo Village.

Also BluBotL, what is the glitch with Jingaling that saves you some seconds?

BluBotL

2011-01-31 03:01:46 am

Blu`BotL

RingRush - Almost everything that's randomised is determined when you enter the level for the first time. I'd only need to scout the jinjo positions, because I can manipulate things such as Boggy's kids (which I won't be getting anymore) or the CC skulls before the first segment of their respective levels.

The Jingaling glitch - when you reset during the cutscene where Jingaling opens the gate in Bottles' house, it saves & quits but when you load the game, you start from Jingaling's palace just before the B.O.B. cutscene. It saves about 10 seconds (the gate opening and leaving the palace). You can also reset during the level opening cutscene right when you see the beam come out of the roof, and that saves you a couple of seconds.

By the way, here's a quality test. The route will be changed (I just thought of the idea while watching it, actually) - I'll split up at the first pads, take Kazooie to the flight pad, use that to activate the Upper Fire warp then bring Banjo through that way. Alternatively, I could do that then just bring Banjo up by the ladder (if I have less than 660 notes). Other than that, it's standard affair.

RingRush - Almost everything that's randomised is determined when you enter the level for the first time. I'd only need to scout the jinjo positions, because I can manipulate things such as Boggy's kids (which I won't be getting anymore) or the CC skulls before the first segment of their respective levels.

The Jingaling glitch - when you reset during the cutscene where Jingaling opens the gate in Bottles' house, it saves & quits but when you load the game, you start from Jingaling's palace just before the B.O.B. cutscene. It saves about 10 seconds (the gate opening and leaving the palace). You can also reset during the level opening cutscene right when you see the beam come out of the roof, and that saves you a couple of seconds.

By the way, here's a quality test. The route will be changed (I just thought of the idea while watching it, actually) - I'll split up at the first pads, take Kazooie to the flight pad, use that to activate the Upper Fire warp then bring Banjo through that way. Alternatively, I could do that then just bring Banjo up by the ladder (if I have less than 660 notes). Other than that, it's standard affair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyO4__NeW14