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Jacky Durand
2011-01-31 03:53:04 am
Quote from BluBotL:
The Jingaling glitch - when you reset during the cutscene where Jingaling opens the gate in Bottles' house, it saves & quits but when you load the game, you start from Jingaling's palace just before the B.O.B. cutscene. It saves about 10 seconds (the gate opening and leaving the palace). You can also reset during the level opening cutscene right when you see the beam come out of the roof, and that saves you a couple of seconds.


You're actually allowed to use reset instead of S & Q? I didn't know that! That's quite a lot of time you'll save just from the puzzles.
RingRush
2011-01-31 05:43:19 pm
A save and quit at the start would be perfectly reasonable, even it took 4 seconds. Ocarina of Time runners often make their first segment a save and quit just so they don't have to watch the 3-minute intro cutscene, and it costs them 2 seconds. This, which has the practical purpose of luck manipulation, would definitely be warranted. I'd imagine it would take around 20-30 attempts to find a strong jinjo combination (black or pink in TDL, rest of blacks/pinks tending towards more time-consuming spots), and you don't want to have to rely on getting a perfect first section every test (especially since you'll want to manipulate Klungo to have a certain potion early on (I think it was blue, but it has been a while)).

I don't remember enough about item locations to comment on your HFP route. I also would suggest not making a route until -after- you manipulate the jinjos, as not collecting two jinjos in a single level could change the route significantly.
BluBotL
2011-01-31 09:42:44 pm
Blu`BotL
The Klungo fight isn't particularly important to manipulate, because the same method is used regardless of which potion is used. The blue one would probably be better to fight against first up (because the green and red potions are more easily hit with eggs), but it will save about 5 seconds at best, which does nothing more than cancel out the time taken to save & quit in the first few seconds. I'm also fairly certain that Klungo's potions are decided at the start of the game. Whereas, if I simply play through the first segment (where I reset just after Jingaling), it looks far smoother to the outsider - almost like a TAS.

Rather than be bull-headed about jinjos as I have been, after some consideration I've decided to revise my jiggy list to skip those troublesome jinjos and just do Canary Mary. If I can manipulate a purple or black jinjo in the TDL cage plus at least two locations out of my "annoying jinjos" list, that would easily save 10 minutes.

The problem with making a route after knowing which jinjos are where is that some of the jinjos are only slow because of their location on my current route. The GI window jinjo is a perfect example. On my current route, taking Banjo there is a pain and eats up at least two minutes (I'd go directly to where Banjo is needed otherwise), but because I need to use Kazooie to jump from that ledge to the flight pad regardless, a revised route could make it take less than 30 seconds. I'll remake my route, see which jinjos take the longest and do some revisions based on that.

I'll probably upload another quality test with a higher bitrate tonight. That video I posted looks about the same as a SQ video, so I'll fiddle with the encoding settings and see if I can't fix that.
KlydeStorm
KlydeStorm
Edit history:
KlydeStorm: 2011-01-31 10:13:50 pm
KlydeStorm: 2011-01-31 10:11:46 pm
KlydeStorm: 2011-01-31 09:57:04 pm
2011-01-31 09:53:43 pm
Klungo's potions are decided at the moment you enter the room with him. The first one anyway, I don't know about the other two.

Quote from BluBotL:
The GI window jinjo is a perfect example.


You mean the one in the Waste Disposal Plant? The place with the green water? If you play on NTSC, you can use Taxi Pack to grab it right through the wall. While you're there, you can get the Jiggy across the room with solo Banjo (and grab it through the glass to save a few seconds), as well get the one behind the grating at the bottom of the green water (it's a bit picky, but you can get it).

Edit: Video of said second Jiggy. It requires Shack Pack, I don't know how much that changes your route (if it does). I don't know if it works on PAL or XBLA. Since they fixed Taxi Grab, it's a good chance it doesn't.
BluBotL
2011-01-31 10:44:31 pm
Blu`BotL
GI Window meaning the one outside where you use Banjo to open it while Kazooie uses the CCBs to get it. You jump from there to the flight pad on the 2nd floor in order to access the roof early.

Taxi Pack doesn't work on PAL (which is what I'll be running on). If I had a NTSC game + console, I'd do 100% with all the NTSC-only skips.
KlydeStorm
KlydeStorm
Edit history:
KlydeStorm: 2011-01-31 11:09:21 pm
KlydeStorm: 2011-01-31 11:07:38 pm
KlydeStorm: 2011-01-31 11:05:47 pm
2011-01-31 11:04:55 pm
Quote from BluBotL:
GI Window meaning the one outside where you use Banjo to open it while Kazooie uses the CCBs to get it. You jump from there to the flight pad on the 2nd floor in order to access the roof early.


Oh, Taxi Grab works on that Jinjo too, but don't know if that would even save time, considering you'd need to get the warp pad on the roof, split up, then send Banjo up.

Not trying to discourage you from a PAL run, and I don't know if you saw it, but some pages back, I made a list of the places Taxi Grab does and doesn't work. I'll just quote it for convenience's sake. Only a few of them are big for an Any% run, whereas most of them are pretty minor or just flat out useless (see: Cheato Pages) for an Any% run. You can judge for yourself how much time it would save, or if you want to go through all the trouble of getting NTSC equipment.

Quote from KlydeStorm:
Isle o' Hags
  Plateau
    Jinjo under the rock


Glitter Gulch Mine
  Main Area
    Jinjo under rock


Jolly Roger's Lagoon
  Pawno's Emporium
    Cheato Page you have to buy (if you reload the room after you've already seen the page once, it seems to not be able to be gotten with Taxi Grab)


Terrydactyland
  Stomping Plains
    Jinjo behind gate (might save a few seconds)
    Jiggy behind gate (might save a few seconds)


Grunty Industries
  Waste Disposal Plant
    Jinjo behind glass
    Jiggy on other side of room in glass box (saves a few seconds)
  Outside
    Jinjo behind wooden panel


Hailfire Peaks
  Lava Side
    Cheato Page behind bars


Glitter Gulch Mine
  Poison Gas Cave
    Honeycomb under rock


Witchyworld
  Space Zone
    Treble Clef behind Van door
  Area 51
    Jinjo behind Van door
  Cave of Horrors
    Jinjo in cell
  The Inferno
    Cheato Page behind Van door


Jolly Roger's Lagoon
  Pawno's Emporium
    Jiggy you have to buy
    Cheato Page you have to buy (if you reload the room after you've already seen the page once, it seems to not be able to be gotten with Taxi Grab)


Terrydactyland
  Outside
    T-Rex Roar Jiggy
    Clockwork Kazooie Jinjo
    T-Rex Switch Jinjo
    Cheato Page underneath boulder
    Treble Clef underneath boulder


Grunty Industries
  Trash Compactor
    Jiggy behind the hatch


Hailfire Peaks
  Icicle Grotto
    Cheato Page behind ice wall
  Lava Side
    Jiggy behind metal bars
  Ice Side
    Jiggy behind ice (from Train Station)
    Jiggy behind ice (from Stomping Plains)


Cloud Cuckooland
  Central Cavern
    Jiggy in safe
leftysheroes
2011-02-01 11:28:28 pm
Well I was messing around and I think I may have found a new trick. You need solo Banjo and pack whack for it. Basically by quickly alternating between jumping and pack-whacking you can climb very steep slopes, even slopes to steep for Talon Trot such as the exterior of the main Cloud Cuckooland cave. I'm guessing that there are other people who know about this but I couldn't find any mention of it anywhere.

That being said other than a few possible Cloud Cuckooland shortcuts I'm not sure how useful this will be.
KlydeStorm
KlydeStorm
Edit history:
KlydeStorm: 2011-02-02 06:05:31 am
2011-02-02 12:36:49 am
Yep, I'm sure it's pretty common knowledge now. I've saved myself many times in CCL by doing just that. The most obvious (and most useful) use of it is allowing Banjo to double-jump.

For what it's worth, you can also do a sort of triple jump if you have the Sack Pack, but that's more for distance than anything.
BluBotL
2011-02-10 04:38:06 am
Blu`BotL
Update: Still here, guys. Looks like there's definitely some sort of jinjo set system... Every time I get a good jinjo colour in the T-Rex cage, the jinjos of the same colour are some of the worst ones to skip. I've done something like 20 runs, and it's very tiresome ):

As soon as I get a good jinjo set, I'll post again with the colour I'm skipping + their locations.
BluBotL
2011-02-16 05:00:52 pm
Blu`BotL
Just to give you guys an idea of the time it'll probably take to get a good Jinjo setup:

I consider a purple or black jinjo acceptable in the T-Rex cage. These only show up once out of every 4-5 runs. These take about 1 hour, so I'm getting 1 good Jinjo colour every 4-5 hours.

Then, once I've got an acceptable Jinjo colour, I check a few various spots for Jnjos of a similar colour at both ends of the time scale (I don't want to skip a super quick Jinjo, and I definitely want to skip the more time-consuming ones). I consider 2 or more from the "want to skip" (not including the T-Rex jinjo) and less than 3 from the "don't want to skip" groups acceptable.

This is the annoying part. It seems like the Jinjos are not completely randomised - it's extremely common to get 2 complete families before the end of GGM, and it's also very common to have a group of 3 Jinjos from the same colour in a level. Even though I've seen black Jinjos in all of my "want to skip" locations, it might not even be possible for them to be simultaneously black.

It might take well over a month to finally get the right Jinjo mix, but the good news is that after some testing it seems like skipping all these Jinjos will save about 10-15 minutes over the previous Jiggy list.
Jacky Durand
2011-02-17 02:08:42 am
Seems like your very dedicated to this Jinjo-matter, which is great. But I thought about - maybe there is a way to find out, if the Jinjos are totally randomized or not without having to play the game through this many times? I just have an idea that there are a certain number of patterns, but I can't say if one of the patterns is really good for a run.

I am really not tech-savvy in any way, but does somebody know, if you can break into the code of the game to find out about this? Like when they manipulate luck in the TASvideoes?

I've tried to cover Jinjo patterns at one time a year ago or so, but I gave up after covering 4 of them, because it got really tiresome. Seems you're more dedicated so maybe you could write down at least the location of the white and orange jinjos (since they typically appear early in the game) and then find out, if they sometimes are in the same spot. Then you would know if it's possible to get a really good pattern or maybe settle with a less optimal one, because the number of combinations are limited.
KlydeStorm
2011-03-03 08:22:54 pm


Useless I'm sure, but still pretty cool.
BluBotL
2011-03-04 05:03:39 am
Blu`BotL
Update: This game is fucking with me. I've had purple in the cage and black in the water storage, then vice versa the very next run. I have still not been able to get the cage and water storage jinjos to match. I'm beginning to think that a 100% run would be far simpler, because I could just do it without having to constantly reset. I've done something like 80 runs now (usually one a day, sometimes two if I feel like it).

Cool trick, by the way, Klyde. I knew that was possible [:

This gives me an interesting idea for a route: In the first segment of MT, you'd open the Prison Compound as well as all the other stuff. Then, you'd do the first part of GGM (using the Beak Bust boost to get places you otherwise couldn't without Grip Grab) and get Bill Drill so that, in the next segment, you could return to MT, do the swamp & pillars jiggies (pillars with the beak bust boost again, which is very easy to do), then rescue Dilberta right there.

This would also mean that you could skip a few of the more obnoxious jiggies in WW (such as the Inferno) until you've got moves which will make them easier/faster and still have enough to get into TL and GI.

I have no idea if this would be faster (because you need to return to GGM at some point with the Springy Step Shoes), but it's worth testing. I'll see what I can do in my next run.
LLCoolDave
2011-03-04 07:36:34 am
Klyde: Can you confirm that trick works on console? (The video very much looks like emulator, the game doesn't run nearly as smooth or is that bright on console ;)) I've been trying for a while now on my PAL copy, and I know I tried this for a while some time ago as well. I also managed to get up onto the broken stairs this way once the weird force field is gone on emulator, but never managed to replicate that on console.
KlydeStorm
2011-03-04 10:59:33 am
Yes, the video is emulator, but I just now tested it on console, and it indeed works.

I also tested this on the PAL rom just now as well, and unfortunately, it looks like it's another NTSC only trick, which I also assume means it would not work on XBLA. Seems like Rare caught onto things pretty quickly to be able to fix all these things for the PAL release.
Paraxade
2011-03-04 11:53:16 am
^ already told klyde on IRC, but it works on XBLA.
BluBotL
2011-03-16 05:11:03 am
Blu`BotL
I already use the trick to get the trinket quickly in MT/TL. High scores don't do anything for the run (especially Dodgems scores, which are almost entirely based on how lucky you get with Twinklie spawns). I do like your Ordnance Storage run, though. I'd be most interested in seeing what you can do with Patch and Fak Fak, and perhaps the Clinkers (though I won't be doing them in an any% run).

I'm very close to just saying "fuck it" and either doing a 100% run or not doing a run at all. These jinjos are just ridiculous, and I haven't found any sort of pattern except that the game seems to give you one jiggy per level from them (so you're likely to get orange/yellow early on) while slowly filling the larger families. All this does is confirm that a black jinjo in the Water Storage and T-Rex Cage are probably possible, but far more unlikely than what would be implied by a fully randomised Jinjo spread.
BluBotL
2011-03-18 07:12:41 am
Blu`BotL
Wow, holy shit, 41 seconds on Patch?

That's just insane. I usually take 2 minutes or more. Fak Fak takes me anywhere from 2-3 minutes as well, but when I get a good run it's around 1:30, so that's much more reasonable.

I need to learn how to kill Mingy Jongo faster. I can get about 30 seconds on Replay mode using the wonderwing trick (1 minute reliably), but I can't get anything more than about 5 health in one go.

If I could consistently get those kinds of times, it would save about ten minutes (especially Patch and Fak Fak). Hell, it would make Patch/Fak Fak actually worth doing, and give me a bit more leeway on the jinjos.

Actually, yeah. If I could get even one of them consistently under 1:30, I would be able to cut out the purple AND black jinjos - then all I need to do is get one or the other. Both would let me cut the Blues as well.

I can't cut all the jinjos because the White jinjo is potentially the second fastest jiggy in the game (behind the very first one), and even the Greens can be worthwhile if they aren't in horrible locations.

I have got some decent routes worked up (changed only slightly from before the point at which I decided to not do the Jinjos). Hailfire Peaks changed an awful lot from what I initially uploaded (I forgot that there was a second cliff somehow, lol).
Jacky Durand
2011-03-19 12:33:10 pm
I just found Coolboyman's own description of how he beated Mr. Patch in 41.70 (replay mode). Thought it might help, but to be honest it sounds extremely difficult:

____________________________________
How to beat Mr. Patch on the ground.

1. As soon as the battle starts, go into first person and select grenade eggs. Shoot the big blue patch.

2. Still in first person, shoot the patch above his tail and then when he flinches, shoot the purple patch above it. Do it before the boxing glove hits you.

3. Run to the left side of him and shoot the low purple patch after you hear a molehill come up. If it's coming up under you move a few inches. While he flinches, spam eggs towards his neck and back patches.

4. Talon tront to the fly pad and get 20 grenade eggs and follow him. Wait for him to attack you, he'll face you.

5. Shoot his lower patches first and the higher ones after. Don't be afraid to spam, you have plenty of eggs. If he shoots a ball at you, destroy it with a grenade eggs. You WILL get hit by a boxing glove. When you do, just go back into 1st person and shoot more. If he gets too small for you to hit, try running closer to him and hitting him then.
BluBotL
2011-03-19 11:50:41 pm
Blu`BotL
That seems like something that could be pulled off with a bit of practice, unlike Fak Fak who is based entirely on whether or not he feels like being nice to you or not.
Jacky Durand
2011-03-20 04:05:08 am
Yeah, Fak Fak is really random, but I wouldn't consider it a huge problem since you're battling him as the sub, which makes it a whole lot faster than in replay mode.

I also found this for the Hag 1 battle from a guy beating it in 3:12:

Hag 1= 03.12.40 (My recommendation: Jump on top on the drill, even when spinning, to fire eggs at Grunty until the batteries are blown up, (spinning drill doesn't damage you whilst on top, if you're wondering) making sure you use ice eggs. Do it fast enough to get hit only once by a spell when on top each time, and try to avoid all other attacks if you can. Replenish health and eggs to max when the drill spins, and then get back on top for last two times, getting down near the back of Hag 1 to destroy the battery.
KlydeStorm
2011-03-20 05:02:03 am
Went ahead and uploaded a compilation of everywhere I've found that Taxi Grab works (including a few new ones not on my previous list).



However, that's not all, Stomping Plains is actually possible without the Snooze Pack. It requires a bit of precision, though.
InsipidMuckyWater
2011-03-20 07:46:05 am
Visit my profile to see my runs!
holy shit, those are awesome videos.  im officially watching this thread like a hawk from now on
BluBotL
2011-03-22 03:00:01 am
Blu`BotL
I'm starting to think that doing a run on PAL would be pointless, simply because of how many tricks are NTSC only, even on any%.

Is anyone interested in doing an NTSC 100%/any% run? I won't speak for anyone else, but I'd definitely put in the hours to help with testing and route planning.
BluBotL
2011-03-23 06:16:24 pm
Blu`BotL
Wow, that's just incredible.