N64 Banjo-Tooie any%/100%

Edit history:

Jacky Durand: 2013-02-28 02:40:43 am

2013-02-28 01:52:24 am

Sorry about my two previous posts in which I may have been slightly misinforming. I wasn't aware of the relatively new SS with resets category until now (translates into RTA). It's just that it hasn't been brought up on this game in this forum before. Still, RJ, I think you got your question answered.

The SS with resets category would probably be prefered to the classic SS category anytime, so the classic SS is becoming obsolete. It is absolutely positive for Banjo-Tooie, since we've got no really good run for this game apart from Megadestructor's boss fights. So with all the RTA runners there is a lot of hope that we can finally get a great new run of the main game (don't misunderstand me - Dragorn's run was very good at the time it got out, but so much has happened since then).

I just thought about the timing for this, and I couldn't find anything on it in the rules on the site. The segmented runs would probably still use the in game timer, but the SS with saves would use RTA timing. Am I right, and would this be a problem?

Sorry about my two previous posts in which I may have been slightly misinforming. I wasn't aware of the relatively new SS with resets category until now (translates into RTA). It's just that it hasn't been brought up on this game in this forum before. Still, RJ, I think you got your question answered.

The SS with resets category would probably be prefered to the classic SS category anytime, so the classic SS is becoming obsolete. It is absolutely positive for Banjo-Tooie, since we've got no really good run for this game apart from Megadestructor's boss fights. So with all the RTA runners there is a lot of hope that we can finally get a great new run of the main game (don't misunderstand me - Dragorn's run was very good at the time it got out, but so much has happened since then).

I just thought about the timing for this, and I couldn't find anything on it in the rules on the site. The segmented runs would probably still use the in game timer, but the SS with saves would use RTA timing. Am I right, and would this be a problem?

ais523

2013-02-28 01:48:52 pm

Segmented runs use the in-game timer if it's accurate. For SS with resets, I'm not sure if it uses realtime from first control of the character to final hit on the final boss, or in-game timer with any time lost due to resets added on; you'd have to ask Flip and the verifiers for an official opinion on that. (RTA times are a bit longer than SDA's realtime rules, because they also include the menuing before the start of the game and the credits/final cutscenes at the end. But there's a fixed difference between RTA and SDA times, so a run that is faster with one will be faster with the other.)

Dai

Edit history:

Dai: 2013-03-02 09:32:18 am

2013-03-02 09:30:39 am

I'm Incredibly Bunny

regardless of the opinions here, Pjii has clocked in with a 2:57, with manipulated jinjos

from my understanding, (again, MY understanding), Pjii doesn't care about the non-officialness of manipulated jinjos, he's just gonna do it. He's trying for a sub 2:55 soon

gia

2013-03-02 11:11:21 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

since his youtube name is pjiisda I'd think he cares enough about what sda will say lol

Dai

2013-07-31 07:01:19 am

I'm Incredibly Bunny

update and stuff (i'm still here and practicing this for runs and stuff)
pjii has broken the 2:55, currently has a 2:54, with manipulated jinjos however.

Like I said, he kinda doesn't care about sda rulings.

everyone's chasing after that record, although no-one's really close ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au1esKx5FO4gdG5RMkVxcElZcUhDTDE0dUl2MWNvS3c#gid=4 )
qqwref put together a banjo leaderboards spreadsheet; Pjii has beaten the time in the video, but didn't actually record it.

Unalive

2013-08-02 02:11:57 am

I've been meaning to run this game. I'm assuming that reset and death abuse are allowed even in a 100% SS, because this game really is a bit unrunnable otherwise. I don't know about the record, but I'm going for sub 5 hours in the end.

First order of business, however, is to find a way to the Wasteland early, not for TDL per say but for Clockwork Kazooie eggs before JRB. I actually experimented with a run that involved only grabbing notes, moves, and 16 Jiggies until I got them to save backtracking, but if there's a way to skip JRB altogether in the beginning then I only need the first 8 Jiggies, which would mean I'd only realistically have to visit MT more than once before breaking everything else with CKE skips.

Also I need to take into account whether CKEs early presents any significant gain in the grand scheme of things or not. For all I know it could be the biggest waste of time to get them early.

Unalive

Edit history:

Unalive: 2013-08-02 11:34:24 am

Unalive: 2013-08-02 11:23:43 am

2013-08-02 10:55:15 am

Surprise! I'm over here now!

Since I can't edit my previous post due to me not having an account when I posted, I'll correct my idiotic mistakes here.

First off, SS with resets is apparently a category. That is what I'll be doing. It makes me feel better than segmented runs.

Second, I would still have to visit 3 worlds to get the 305 required for CKEs.

Third, you need 14 Jiggies to get into JRL(Not JRB) , not 16.

Now then, I think that the route that is currently being run is as close to perfect as one can get without being a machine. I have tried various methods, but seeing as I am not a master glitch finder I got zero positive results. With good enough timing it is possible to get above the water on the boundary ledge, but the walls around the area are pretty tight.

ais523

2013-08-03 05:05:48 am

If you use resets/deaths, that becomes a different category (SS with resets, rather than SS), which is perfectly fine. Nobody's likely to run no-resets for this game anyway.

Unalive

2013-08-15 10:59:00 pm

Surprise! I'm over here now!

On the issue of Jinjo manipulation, I feel that it should be a separate category, or to avoid unnecessarily subdividing the system of run classification just add the time spent manipulating onto the final total. It's a tough subject, I mean it IS essentially the same as resetting until you get a favorable lineup but with the unfortunate side effect of also being counted as luck manipulation which carries a TAS-only sentiment.

tl;dr: Jinjo manipulation is fine as long as the time in the manipulated file is added onto the total time because it's really just one long reset.

kirbymastah

2013-08-16 02:47:22 pm

<(^_^)>

Just make it a different category. Nobody cares about how much time was spent starting up the file to manipulate the jinjos. It's somewhat similar to starting a new majora's mask file to know the bomber's password, but not continuing the file (just keeping the base start file).

Pjii

2013-08-16 07:34:58 pm

I guess I’ll say some stuff...

RTA timing difference between manipulated and not: roughly 3.77 seconds (easy enough to call it 4). Note: if you’re using a manipulated file you should add this timing difference to your completed run to keep things accurate with those not interested in manipulation, this is only fair.

SDA timing difference between manipulated and not: 0 (zero) seconds. SDA timing starts at first character control, yes? Then the slight difference between file selection in this case wouldn’t even matter if you time the run like you normally would.

I have a lot of experience in running this game both on an empty file and with a manipulated file, and let me say that manipulation really doesn’t make running this game any easier; it just makes it more enjoyable (for me, anyway). I honestly see no distinction between the two - they’re both a speedrun of Banjo-Tooie from the very start of the game to the very end of the game. One method just eliminates a, IMO, bad design (Jinjo patterns) from the run. Back when I ran this on an empty file I would go for 6 hour attempt sessions without ever seeing a single white Jinjo. Please note, I said a SINGLE white Jinjo; I wasn’t even looking for the optimal pattern, just an okay one and never did. This would be fine if it only happened a small portion of the time, but it happened the majority of the time. I’m sorry if you don’t agree, but this is no way to run the game. It’s terrible and has nothing to do with skill or knowledge. You can call this whining if you’d like, doesn’t bother me. There’s plenty more RNG left that can kill the run, wanting to ban the only bit of RNG manipulation you can do in a SS or RTA run? Come on...

As to being a separate category, eh, I don’t agree that it should be. At max an optimal pattern can save around 50 seconds I believe (call it a solid minute if you’d like). ’Save’ probably isn’t even the right word, as an empty file run can have the same luck as well. Manipulated files just allow you to actually have a chance of a good run most of the time (most of the time because other RNG factors can still crush you regardless). Like I said above, it’s the same run, just less annoying. That’s my opinion, so take it however you’d like.

I guess I’ll say some stuff...

RTA timing difference between manipulated and not: roughly 3.77 seconds (easy enough to call it 4). Note: if you’re using a manipulated file you should add this timing difference to your completed run to keep things accurate with those not interested in manipulation, this is only fair.

SDA timing difference between manipulated and not: 0 (zero) seconds. SDA timing starts at first character control, yes? Then the slight difference between file selection in this case wouldn’t even matter if you time the run like you normally would.

I have a lot of experience in running this game both on an empty file and with a manipulated file, and let me say that manipulation really doesn’t make running this game any easier; it just makes it more enjoyable (for me, anyway). I honestly see no distinction between the two - they’re both a speedrun of Banjo-Tooie from the very start of the game to the very end of the game. One method just eliminates a, IMO, bad design (Jinjo patterns) from the run. Back when I ran this on an empty file I would go for 6 hour attempt sessions without ever seeing a single white Jinjo. Please note, I said a SINGLE white Jinjo; I wasn’t even looking for the optimal pattern, just an okay one and never did. This would be fine if it only happened a small portion of the time, but it happened the majority of the time. I’m sorry if you don’t agree, but this is no way to run the game. It’s terrible and has nothing to do with skill or knowledge. You can call this whining if you’d like, doesn’t bother me. There’s plenty more RNG left that can kill the run, wanting to ban the only bit of RNG manipulation you can do in a SS or RTA run? Come on...

As to being a separate category, eh, I don’t agree that it should be. At max an optimal pattern can save around 50 seconds I believe (call it a solid minute if you’d like). ’Save’ probably isn’t even the right word, as an empty file run can have the same luck as well. Manipulated files just allow you to actually have a chance of a good run most of the time (most of the time because other RNG factors can still crush you regardless). Like I said above, it’s the same run, just less annoying. That’s my opinion, so take it however you’d like.

Unalive

Edit history:

Unalive: 2013-08-16 10:24:37 pm

2013-08-16 10:22:18 pm

Surprise! I'm over here now!

Eh...makes sense to me. Not like Jinjo patterns make a difference in 100% runs anyway so I'll just stay out of it.

...plus whitey always either shows up in MT or TDL for me anyway for some reason.

Pjii

2013-08-17 01:58:25 am

Quote from Unalive:

Not like Jinjo patterns make a difference in 100% runs anyway

Um, that’s not true. Jinjo patterns mean just as much in 100% as they do in any%. You want an extra Jiggy from finishing a Jinjo family in your first visit of MT to be able to solve 2 Jiggywiggy puzzles at once. Having the very first Jinjo you get be white, specifically the Jade Snake Grove Jinjo, is the optimal pattern to get (skips a cutscene in addition to preventing backtracking). It’s just how the start of the game plays out, even for 100%.

Unalive

2013-08-17 09:56:41 pm

Surprise! I'm over here now!

Quote from Pjii:

You want an extra Jiggy from finishing a Jinjo family in your first visit of MT to be able to solve 2 Jiggywiggy puzzles at once.

Oh, I thought that it only skipped a cutscene. Well you've been running this game longer than I have. I'll just have to re-check the route then. Sorry for the mix-up.

Unalive

Edit history:

Unalive: 2013-08-17 10:02:41 pm

Unalive: 2013-08-17 10:01:34 pm

2013-08-17 09:59:26 pm

Surprise! I'm over here now!

Accidental double post due to shit internet. Nothing to see here.

Luisatwo

2013-08-20 07:28:25 am

@ Unalive

I guess you did take my written out route to learn 100%? If so, the route is no where near close to perfection. There are parts that feel iffy to me and there is most likely stuff that can be improved. That doesn't mean it is bad or not good whatsoever, I'm pretty satisfied with the route as it is, so I'm not bothered to work on it until Pjii will come to 100% and has new ideas/improvements/... or anything new is found.

On Pjii's comment I 100% agree. I still dislike the idea of using the manipulation, cause it's no where near to be needed for any other runners then himself (maybe dai), and that is only for any%. For 100%, there is so much other rng stuff that can kill your runs, that I really don't think we are near a time where that comes into play.

Unalive

2013-08-20 09:57:29 pm

Surprise! I'm over here now!

Then I suppose finding a proper route first is in order. I figure -probably incorrectly- that most of the hour saved between 100% and any% is due to set-time limit mini games with no real way of speeding up (e.g. Kickball, Dodgem Dome, etc) and avoiding Jiggies with silly out-of-the-way backtracking. I guess that's why it seems no one aside from Pjii really very much cares for perfecting a 100% run of this game as opposed to an any%.

In any case I'm gonna keep on practicing and improving and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors as well.

Luisatwo

2013-08-22 03:06:21 am

Completly not true, the current route is still pretty good imo, but not perfect. Calling it not proper is just plaine wrong. Also I've been working really hard on beating Pjii's time and the delay is in Minigames, obviously more distance to run/walk however you want to call it and Jiggies that are out of the way for any% as you said. Also you can only skip Mumbo and Wumba once each.

Unalive

2013-08-23 06:39:32 am

Surprise! I'm over here now!

I misspoke when I said proper. I should have said "perfecting the route first." I meant that once the route itself was perfect I could work on improving my own abilities and speed. I fully intend to skip Mumbo in JRL, but I'm not good enough at clockwork warping (which I call CKE warping and pronounce "CAKE" warping) to skip Humba yet in TDL.

Hyperresonance

Edit history:

Hyperresonance: 2014-11-17 02:53:13 pm

2014-11-17 02:51:33 pm

Hey guys,

I submitted a run back in July and it was finally published the other day on the Banjo-Tooie page! Final real time (single segment with resets is the category) is 2:52:57.

It's not the best run I've ever done, but it is certainly one of my better runs. I also opted out of manipulated jinjos for this, so I was lucky to even get a run this good without manipulating. I thought it would take a lot more resetting. Levels were mostly excellent except CCL and HFP. Lost around 40 seconds to Mingy Jongo (bad skull luck and missed the quick kill) and lost probably 1:20 in HFP due to a routing error I made, as well as getting second dragon cycle icy side. Still pretty happy with this run (although I would have liked a 2:50 Wink

).

Hope you guys enjoy!

PS: Thanks to Mike89, KirbyMastah, Uilnslcoap, and one anonymous for all verifying!