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blkyoshi
2012-03-08 10:08:17 pm
Wow this all happened so fast, but you've done an amazing job.
doicm
2012-03-08 10:27:00 pm
Here's the video:



Time: 1:10:45
Bad Ending

There are a few mistakes I make along the way, but I kept this because I tried some new strategies that helped to save time.

Also, as an added question...I start the timer right when the opening cinematic starts, and I stop the timer when I make the final hit against Life Virus R's core. However, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to start the timer when the opening dialogue begins (when the player gains control). What do others think of this? I know a discussion was made on this before, but I don't know if there's a point to starting the timer before there is control...I dunno.

Any thoughts?
Zyre
2012-03-08 10:38:18 pm
The Speedrunning Teacher
Typically the timing starts when control of the character begins. If there is an in-game timer that is proven to be accurate and correct, then you can use that (if it displays the game time at the end or something). If the in-game timer isn't correct, then manual timing would begin after that intro cutscene.
doicm
doicm
Edit history:
doicm: 2012-03-08 11:42:48 pm
2012-03-08 10:41:18 pm
Alright...then I need to change the official times.

Then again...another question.

Control isn't removed at the last hit of the final boss. Technically, the last piece of control is some dialogue after the credits. However, the credits have no manual controls. Can we consider the final hit to be when the timer stops, or are we considering the credits as a "cutscene" and must have the timer end after the last controllable piece of dialogue?

Also, there is no official in-game timer that shows up in the credits, but there is an in-game timer that you can see when you save.
Zyre
2012-03-09 08:04:23 am
The Speedrunning Teacher
Unless there is something there that could kill you after you get that final hit on the final boss, then I would say the timing stops at that final hit, even if you have character control. But don't take my word as law on that. I would just double-check with an admin about it.

And if the in-game timer only appears when you save, then I would also say not to worry about it.
doicm
2012-03-09 05:53:58 pm
Good news: I got a new record for good ending: 1:10:10. It's also a no-death run, meaning that I can get a faster time without having to resort to losing lives.

Bad news: My recording screwed up at the beginning of No Grav Area 1. A lot of the frames were lost at that point, and the audio lost sync really bad with the video.

I was hoping to have this be my final run that I would be submitting. However, because of the poor quality towards the end and how bad it affects the quality of the remainder of the run, I'm not able to submit it.

Anyway...this will continue to go on until I can get a quality run both in time and presentation.

As far as the timer goes, I'm going to say that it begins after the first cutscene when I have control and ends after the final hit on the final boss.

Wish me luck!
doicm
2012-03-09 08:15:20 pm
In my rage over the failed recording, I got a new time: 1:08:46.

Sub 1:10...woo.

One thing that nearly killed this run was ShadowMan's stage. I had one stupid death at the beginning where I fell down the hole and died.... The second death in that stage was on ShadowMan himself. I was overconfident in having enough health to avoid death...but I died.

The thing that redeems this run is IceMan's stage. On one part, I took out a large chunk of time from timing getting on the ice blocks perfectly (the disappearing/reappearing ones...do these have an official name?). The other is that the three chips I usually manually preset throughout the level (Heat-V, Shockwave, and Minibomb) were all in my starting folder! I don't want to calculate the odds for that, but I liked the odds enough that I kept them.

And...in the end, the run paid off.

Anyway, I'm hoping this time it will cooperate. There was a very slight audio issue part way through, and it slightly desynced the audio (so far in the preview before I compress), but it's hardly noticable.

*Crossing fingers*
doicm
doicm
Edit history:
doicm: 2012-03-10 03:12:12 pm
2012-03-10 01:53:17 pm
The video came out a lot better than I expected.

Even though I had two deaths, this may be the run that I submit. Because of the luck I had in the other areas besides ShadowMan's, I don't know how much better this could be (unless I can replicate the luck I had in other areas AND not die twice in ShadowMan's stage).

I'm going to sit on this for a week, see if anyone has any feedback to support this. Please let me know what you think, whether I should just go on or if I should attempt more runs on this.

EDIT: Just got this from one of the admin's:
Quote from puwexil:
The timing should start when you first get control of your character and can move, not at the first controllable dialogue (took me a while to get used to this standard too); and timing should end when you get the last hit on the final boss (since it sounds like you don't have control over your character after that).


I'm interpreting this to mean that the first control of the character and can move as when you can read the four emails from the NPCs at the beginning. This changes my overall time by 5 seconsd to 1:08:41. However, if this actually refers to when you have control over MegaMan, then the timing would be much different. I'll have to leave that to the verifiers/SDA to interpret the final time anyway.

doicm
doicm
Edit history:
doicm: 2012-03-13 10:50:12 pm
2012-03-13 11:56:19 am
I just finished my latest run. I think it will be my last run until (a) I get a better computer or (b) I get a better capture card. I feel these are submittable runs...except for the quality :P. I keep inserting/dropping frames on vdub, and I think it's a combination of both of those that are causing the issues. This is only when I put it up to 29.97 fps. However, when I do it at 29.41 fps, I lose significantly fewer frames.

Anyway, my new time is 1:17:46.  A run-down of changes:

*I decide to default Bubbler before I enter the first stage. I still get to use Cannon and V-Gun, which I rely on throughout the first stage. I then use Bubbler at the end without having to take time to go into the menu and set that as the default. That overall saves me about 5-10 seconds.
*I've got IceMan's disappearing/reappearing block trick down and how to get past that part really fast.
*I skipped the HPMemory and MemUP in QuickMan's stage.
*I die early on in ColorMan's stage, losing me about 15 seconds.
*I don't die in ShadowMan's stage, and I have my best round against him that I've ever had.
*I mess up a little on ElecMan in the boss gauntlet, losing me some time.

I'll probably try to fix it as much as I can to post on youtube so that others may see it. However, my run will probably never be posted on SDA due to quality issues (unless I get better equipment).

I wish for whoever has better equipment who decides to take up this run the best of luck!

EDIT: Okay, here's the videos. Split into three parts...because in between parts is some heavy recording glitching. Anyway...:





doicm
doicm
Edit history:
doicm: 2012-03-22 09:35:28 pm
2012-03-22 06:01:00 pm
In a much shorter time than I expected, I hope to have a video of a quality run in the near future. Today, I just completed my new time of about 1:06:50.

Considering the luck I had and the fact that I improved my time in almost every level in this run, I decided that this is about as good as I can do on this game (or as good as I want to do). A few changes to my strategy:

*Skip the first HPMemory. I don't need it.
*Preset Minibombs earlier in Gutsman's stage. That way, I can preset to Sword by the time I fight Gutsman, and Sword is VERY effective against him and very cost effect for MP.
*Preset Minibombs early on in IceMan's stage to take out the first ColdBear.
*Lose some time on Power Plant Comp 2 at the beginning by not using 2 DoubJumps. However, this preserves more MP for using TreeBom1's on ElecMan.

...I think that's it? There may have been more.

EDIT: Here's the video. I'll get a better quality one eventually. I hope this'll be submittable in the end...:

grassini
2012-03-23 03:20:53 pm
you should stream and ask for some donations for your cause if you are too short on  money...surely somebody might give you a few bucks to help out.
Garlyle
Garlyle
Edit history:
Garlyle: 2012-04-04 10:04:04 am
Garlyle: 2012-04-04 09:57:15 am
Garlyle: 2012-04-04 08:43:46 am
Garlyle: 2012-04-04 07:56:24 am
2012-04-04 05:39:31 am
That Guy
Quote:
. Today, I just completed my new time of about 1:06:50.

I... I'm at work and I have to shut down just now but I randomly decided to check up on this topic on a whim and holy minibombs batman how the HELL did you get the time that low

I'm going to have to watch/review this all when I get home from work because I would have been guessing that an hour thirty would have been fairly successful, initially.

I feel completely outmatched and shamed but in the best way possible.  Today is exciting!

COMMENTARY:
(discarding moments of obvious minor screwups)

General: How the hell are you getting text scrolling that fast!?

Fire Man Stage:
-Den Area 1: I usually went the top route and then came back around the bottom.  Don't need to stall to climb and if you time it right you use your attacks in the air so you don't lose forward momentum anyway, but it PROBABLY comes out the same
-Den Area 2: Surprised you pick up that first upgrade given you have to sidetrack a bit for it.  Still, it's a MemUp, so I can understand it.  On a run you want to submit, you should NOT be picking up the backup chip even if it's only a couple seconds wasted.  Similarly you probably shouldn't be spending the time to equip the HeatArmr.  Don't know if it saved your life here (I don't think it did) so you shouldn't need it.  I think.
-Net On Fire: Seemed fine.  Took me a moment to understand how carefully you were conserving everything so as to not have to reopen the custom screen, but I get it now.
-Fire Man himself was fine barring getting hit but it doesn't actually lose much time so really uh

Guts Man Stage:
Not too much to say.  I'm amazed the stage lastss long enough to do two custom screen loads and never considered that.  Glad to see a lot of the little things I was doing done as well.
Main objection is in the conveyor belts section at Global 2; I know there's a smoother way to get through it (Sliding along the belts moving forward gives you a noticable speed boost etc)
Against Guts himself, a mistake in this run was not entering right away and not using the Longswords against him.  Especially if you don't have the custom meter quite filled up but will need to use stuff other than Sords anyway, you should probably just head straight in.

Side Note: Needleman next?  In my original route I went straight to Quick Man (suicidal as that might sound) and actually took an early stop at NumberMan for more MPUps, so this is kind of a surprise to me - but not an unpleasant one!
One idea I tinkered with and was doing was picking up a PowerUp at NumberMan, then needing to go to QuickMan first of the four to get the cash for Needleman.  IF you can sidetrip during SwordMan's stage to get the one there (and possibly the Zero Account one or visiting Numberman quickly enroute to Pharaohman, knowing that you will go a couple stages with a 4 in Power/Charge), then doing this cuts out the side trip Number Man's shop that you do later.  This might be worth investigation, but I don't know how much a delayed single powerup will affect you.

Needle Man Stage:
If you're at full health at the "move between the needles" part, you should take full advantage of this and take the hit and then just dive through the last segment.  You'll save time even if you decide to jump over the boss portal to quickly grab the HP refill

Ice Man Sta--wait
Did you just seriously buy Aqua Armor?  D:<
Buy minibombs instead.  They will allow you to nail the midboss' parts while they're in the air (Instead of having to wait for them to come down to the ground) and if you don't draw shockwave you won't be completely screwed.  Also consider Lilbombs should you draw them because they work well too.
Also test out the respawns of the Double Jump viri - I am pretty sure you do not have to go all the way to the corner to get them to respawn for farming purposes.
also fuck yes someone finally getting the shortcut through the block segment because I have ALWAYS screwed it up
...Also why not come here after Bright Man?  --Oh wait, the RegUp for Woodbombs, right?  Another upside to doing QuickMan first, I guess, if you can find a way to handle it.  I know he's kind of A Thing, but... yeah.  You could have saved huge time on the Ice Man fight presetting Satelites or MagBombs (It only takes three to kill him!)

Quick Man Stage:
22:04 - if you are right up in a sniper joe's face like you are for a moment, you can start firing your cannon right away, without waiting for the shield to be lowered, because the shot actually comes into existance far enough behind the shield to not hit it.  Saves about a second
damn, that fight with him was nice, by the way.  Why can MY Quick Man fights never go that smooth ;_;

Bright Man Stage:
I want to say it's possible to get through the laser segment faster.  I really, really do.  Like taking a hit and running through it or something, since you pick up the HP recharge anyway.
As for brightface himself that is a pretty good way of dealing with him.  It's more secure, I guess; the other method is faster but it also runs a risk of missing when you seem to have this down completely solidly, so...

Color Man Stage:
I feel like the route through the pinball room could be improved somehow; probably by leaning farther to the right as you descend at the end or something.
Also lol at treebombs winning again
Have you considered sords for that fight?  If nothing else they're cheap MP wise and still do solid damage and if you don't have enough treebombs to guarantee yourself a victory route etc etc

Elec Man Stage:
You missed a huge shortcut.  At 31:03 or so, you can jump rapid Double Jump up to reach the area above, eliminating any and all need for backtracking.  You can also do it as you cross the rails etc; the point is, you have all those Double Jumps, make use of 'em!
Your double jump route up the tower is a little weird too.  At 32:30, I don't THINK doublejumping up to that point saves any time compared to climbing up since you have to wait for the platforms to start appearing anyway, but I could be wrong.  Saves you MP too to end the fight faster if it's the case.
Also so THAT'S how you hit him with Tree bombs WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT

I need to stop now because I need to sleep because life sucks like that.  I will come back to this ASAP and hopefully have more commentary for you.

...

wait, this run was submitted, wasn't it?
grassini
2012-04-04 10:23:27 am
Quote from Garlyle:
Quote:
. Today, I just completed my new time of about 1:06:50.

I... I'm at work and I have to shut down just now but I randomly decided to check up on this topic on a whim and holy minibombs batman how the HELL did you get the time that low

I'm going to have to watch/review this all when I get home from work because I would have been guessing that an hour thirty would have been fairly successful, initially.

I feel completely outmatched and shamed but in the best way possible.  Today is exciting!

COMMENTARY:
(discarding moments of obvious minor screwups)

General: How the hell are you getting text scrolling that fast!?

Fire Man Stage:
-Den Area 1: I usually went the top route and then came back around the bottom.  Don't need to stall to climb and if you time it right you use your attacks in the air so you don't lose forward momentum anyway, but it PROBABLY comes out the same
-Den Area 2: Surprised you pick up that first upgrade given you have to sidetrack a bit for it.  Still, it's a MemUp, so I can understand it.  On a run you want to submit, you should NOT be picking up the backup chip even if it's only a couple seconds wasted.  Similarly you probably shouldn't be spending the time to equip the HeatArmr.  Don't know if it saved your life here (I don't think it did) so you shouldn't need it.  I think.
-Net On Fire: Seemed fine.  Took me a moment to understand how carefully you were conserving everything so as to not have to reopen the custom screen, but I get it now.
-Fire Man himself was fine barring getting hit but it doesn't actually lose much time so really uh

Guts Man Stage:
Not too much to say.  I'm amazed the stage lastss long enough to do two custom screen loads and never considered that.  Glad to see a lot of the little things I was doing done as well.
Main objection is in the conveyor belts section at Global 2; I know there's a smoother way to get through it (Sliding along the belts moving forward gives you a noticable speed boost etc)
Against Guts himself, a mistake in this run was not entering right away and not using the Longswords against him.  Especially if you don't have the custom meter quite filled up but will need to use stuff other than Sords anyway, you should probably just head straight in.

Side Note: Needleman next?  In my original route I went straight to Quick Man (suicidal as that might sound) and actually took an early stop at NumberMan for more MPUps, so this is kind of a surprise to me - but not an unpleasant one!
One idea I tinkered with and was doing was picking up a PowerUp at NumberMan, then needing to go to QuickMan first of the four to get the cash for Needleman.  IF you can sidetrip during SwordMan's stage to get the one there (and possibly the Zero Account one or visiting Numberman quickly enroute to Pharaohman, knowing that you will go a couple stages with a 4 in Power/Charge), then doing this cuts out the side trip Number Man's shop that you do later.  This might be worth investigation, but I don't know how much a delayed single powerup will affect you.

Needle Man Stage:
If you're at full health at the "move between the needles" part, you should take full advantage of this and take the hit and then just dive through the last segment.  You'll save time even if you decide to jump over the boss portal to quickly grab the HP refill

Ice Man Sta--wait
Did you just seriously buy Aqua Armor?  D:<
Buy minibombs instead.  They will allow you to nail the midboss' parts while they're in the air (Instead of having to wait for them to come down to the ground) and if you don't draw shockwave you won't be completely screwed.  Also consider Lilbombs should you draw them because they work well too.
Also test out the respawns of the Double Jump viri - I am pretty sure you do not have to go all the way to the corner to get them to respawn for farming purposes.
also fuck yes someone finally getting the shortcut through the block segment because I have ALWAYS screwed it up
...Also why not come here after Bright Man?  --Oh wait, the RegUp for Woodbombs, right?  Another upside to doing QuickMan first, I guess, if you can find a way to handle it.  I know he's kind of A Thing, but... yeah.  You could have saved huge time on the Ice Man fight presetting Satelites or MagBombs (It only takes three to kill him!)

Quick Man Stage:
22:04 - if you are right up in a sniper joe's face like you are for a moment, you can start firing your cannon right away, without waiting for the shield to be lowered, because the shot actually comes into existance far enough behind the shield to not hit it.  Saves about a second
damn, that fight with him was nice, by the way.  Why can MY Quick Man fights never go that smooth ;_;

Bright Man Stage:
I want to say it's possible to get through the laser segment faster.  I really, really do.  Like taking a hit and running through it or something, since you pick up the HP recharge anyway.
As for brightface himself that is a pretty good way of dealing with him.  It's more secure, I guess; the other method is faster but it also runs a risk of missing when you seem to have this down completely solidly, so...

Color Man Stage:
I feel like the route through the pinball room could be improved somehow; probably by leaning farther to the right as you descend at the end or something.
Also lol at treebombs winning again
Have you considered sords for that fight?  If nothing else they're cheap MP wise and still do solid damage and if you don't have enough treebombs to guarantee yourself a victory route etc etc

Elec Man Stage:
You missed a huge shortcut.  At 31:03 or so, you can jump rapid Double Jump up to reach the area above, eliminating any and all need for backtracking.  You can also do it as you cross the rails etc; the point is, you have all those Double Jumps, make use of 'em!
Your double jump route up the tower is a little weird too.  At 32:30, I don't THINK doublejumping up to that point saves any time compared to climbing up since you have to wait for the platforms to start appearing anyway, but I could be wrong.  Saves you MP too to end the fight faster if it's the case.
Also so THAT'S how you hit him with Tree bombs WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT

I need to stop now because I need to sleep because life sucks like that.  I will come back to this ASAP and hopefully have more commentary for you.

...

wait, this run was submitted, wasn't it?


NO,quality of vid is subpar by sda standards
Garlyle
2012-04-04 10:29:49 am
That Guy
Hm.

Well then what's the run that WAS submitted?  Because there's one in the Seeking Verification list
doicm
doicm
Edit history:
doicm: 2012-04-04 03:18:33 pm
2012-04-04 03:16:16 pm
Garlyle, thanks for the commentary. A couple of things that I thought of what you mentioned:

GutsMan: Ithought of using the LongSwrds, but that takes up 16 MP, whereas regular sword takes up 8 MP. The biggest problem I had in fighting GutsMan in all my runs (and subsequently ending them) is running out of MP. I do as much as I can to conserve. However, I may have saved time by using the LongSwrds (I just didn't want to take the risk).

IceMan: I did buy AquaArmr. Too many failed runs because I didn't, and it only cost me a few seconds. I had to go to the upgrade screen anyway to apply the two PowerUPs for attack (for using on IceMan...usually low on MP by the time I fight him). I also usually have enough minibombs for the ColdBears AND the miniboss. If there are lingering ones in the air, this is when I preset Minibombs and use those.
On the DoubJump viri, I know it's not the immediate corner to respawn...but sometimes I don't go far enough, and it screwed up the whole routine. Lost more time than it saved (although if I can get the EXACT spot, then it might save a few seconds there).
And the block segment...finally glad I got that too :).
Never thought of the MagBomb routine, although I would have to go to BrightMan first before IceMan, and then I would be unable to preset TreeBom1 for BrightMan...I guess it can go either way.

QuickMan: I got really lucky on QuickMan. It never goes that well normally.

BrightMan: Still haven't got the laser segment down. I watched someone else do a speed run, and they died rather quickly on the laser segment (hit twice). I think I've been scared of it since. Oh, and I could never get the other method for BrightMan down that you mentioned...I'd have to practice TONS to get that, but I might be able to someday.

ColorMan: I don't know why I didn't think of Swords... :P. I'll probably do that next time I try this.

ElecMan: *Smacks forehead* Never thought of that shortcut idea. Thanks! Also, at 32:30, the platforms don't start appearing until you're either close to or on that ledge. Again...I could be very wrong.

---

I look forward to the rest of your commentary, Garlyle!

Also, I did submit this run, but it needs verifiers first. It should be good enough quality, as I did a quality test and it met SDA's standards.
Garlyle
2012-04-04 11:13:26 pm
That Guy
GutsMan: Yeah, I can understand that - it was the exact same issue I faced too.  You pick up more early-game MP Upgrades than I do though and it definitely seemed like you had enough to spare, in that run.

IceMan: Alright, I can understand that.  I guess the main reason that I suggest Minibombs is in case you don't draw Shockwave, since I highly doubt you really want a run killed there.  As for the RegUp issue, remember that there's a RegUp in Quick Man's stage as well.

Brightman: Yeah, I know what you mean about the lasers asdfgh but it really seems like we should have figured out a way to do it better by now.  As for the other method, honestly, when I'm verifying I won't fault you for using a slightly slower one - the main issue with the method I use is that if his counterattack is to jump out of the way, it's possible the attack will end up missing completely and that can stop the run cold, or at the best negate the time advantage it gives you.

ColorMan: I'm still not ENTIRELY sure if it's faster, but swords will eat up far less MP than the treebombs so you can use them continuously instead of having to wait.  I think.  This COULD be a bad idea though in practice if he combines it with launching lots of counters...

ElecMan: Yeah, that seems to be the case.  You're probably in the right here; I'm just trying to think my way through double jump management and all that wonderful stuff.

Anyway I'll get the rest of the commentary within a few hours, and yes, I've signed up to verify the run.  I'm most looking forward to everything from here on out, because looking at my own records and stuff, it seems that it's in this second half that you really improved on my previous route which was honestly kind of "Make shit up as I go along".
Garlyle
Garlyle
Edit history:
Garlyle: 2012-04-05 09:47:55 am
Garlyle: 2012-04-05 09:36:51 am
Garlyle: 2012-04-05 09:36:30 am
Garlyle: 2012-04-05 09:36:07 am
2012-04-05 05:24:06 am
That Guy
Okay, let's finish up this run analysis.

This is the part that I was excited about.  According to my LapTool record, the difference between my old best when I was timing and your time is only 7 minutes (Still pretty significant), so there's another like 15 minutes to be accounted for in this half of the game.

Side Trip:
This is kind of an oddity.  I didn't ever think of going the other way around; if I ever get serious about trying to beat this time I will need to test it because it might be, especially if you can put the conveyors to work. 
Anyway yeah.    I've mentioned before the possibility of skipping this trip.  It would need further analysis.  Potentially a lot of further analysis
Also laughed at starting to head backwards before realising "Oh wait I have to jack out here"
Note for mathing purposes: It takes from 35:28 to 37:04 for this sidetrip, or 96 seconds.  Counting off about 4 seconds of "what am I doing lol", that's about a minute and a half to make this sidetrip.
The three powerups that would have to be picked up in return are
1 from Number Man during GutsMan's stage (would let you achieve max power earlier).  This takes only a few seconds.  It comes at the cost of not being able to do Needleman's stage right away because you won't have Heat-Vs (or more specifically the money for them) but you can grab an MP Upgrade or two here as well, so...
1 from Sword Man's stage (Your current route almost grabs it anyway, actually; you'd just need an MP Charge from Higsby's before entering the stage so that you can use enough Double Jumps to reach it without having to wait on it to recharge.  Also DashAttacks make this possible regardless... IF they can be drawn)
The time for charge shots would need to be tested, but I doubt the time lost by not being maxed on Charge right away would be too much (Rapid fire charge shots aren't used TOO much against the bosses immediately coming up; and you only really need the max charge speed by Zero for the bustering-him-to-death strategy to work)
Get the last one from the Zero Account, which should take about... 15-20 seconds as the longest?

I don't know.  It SEEMS possible to do it this way and cut out the side trip to Numberman, and if you really want to hit him up, do so quickly while en route to Pharaohman since you go right next to him anyway.

Sword Man Stage:
Oh speaking of which, yeah, I never went down to pick up that singular upgrade myself, but interesting that you did so.
OH THAT'S HOW YOU GET PAST THOSE FUCKING AQUA HEAD FHIWEOUIGHOGH THING
Hm that kind of puts a dent in the route as you'd have EXACTLY as many double jumps as you'd need if you maxed them out, and you'd still need a way to get past the last aqua head, unless you skipped that extra memory upgrade or the extra jump for the thing
I... hm.  I'll need to think more on this.
It MIGHT turn out to be a huge hassle to do this, though it definitely should save time in theory?  ...I think it should, anyway... :/
Okay enough about side trip theorizing, good job wasting Sword Man due to him doing the best pattern possible for speedrunning.

Gravity Man Stage:
HA HA SCREW YOU DOG I HAVE DOUBLEJUMPS uh nevermind me the point is I hadn't considered just skipping that pain in the neck, see also just tanking the Megalian
For how far out of your way you occasionally go for HP/Mem upgrades it surprises me you don't grab an unlocker using the cash from Sword Man's stage to grab the HP you jump right over during this stage, and skip one of the more time-consuming ones in return.
man that wasn't even a perfect gravity man fight but it was still great.  You had Wreckers though - the BEST way to fight him is to land a charge shot AND a chip every time he is vulneurable to maximize the damage in that time frame (the flinch obviously doesn't matter if he's got his arms in front of his face anyway) but given how much of a god damn fahigwoeuighoouh PAIN IN THE NECK he can be and the luck of him never using his gravity... yeah, that went well.  Really well.

Star Man Stage:
I feel like I would have had to hurt you if you screwed up the shortcut.  Either way good job getting through this obscene mess.
Also yes, Heat-V's are still the winner I see.  I'm actually surprised you had the luck to get both those and the bubblers so you could take it down, instead of buying a couple spare Heat-V's while you were in the shop right before this stage.
Oh hey I was wondering when your luck with bosses would run low.  Don't worry, I hate Meteors too.

Zero Account:
Yes I jelly of that luck.  You have him down to a goddamn science, son.  I need to learn from this fight.  Learn A LOT.
THIS is easily the single stage with the best time difference (DASH ATTACK YOU LUCKY CHEATING BASTARD), as you go from about 11 minutes ahead at Star Man to about 22 minutes ahead compared to my record [attempts had never previously liked this stage AT ALL].  Like... damn, son.  Daaaaaamn.

Pharaoh Man Stage:
...wait, wait, wait, did you skip reading one of the e-mails...?  Or is my memory just failing me; I thought there was another you had to read...
Anyway, personally I go here second, so I can spend more on HP/MP upgrades at NumberMan while I'm right next to him anyway.  BUT that's really an "up to you" sort of thing; this way means more for healing items and stuff right before the Undernet so...
Your walk here could do with a bit of efficiency in terms of when to start double-jumping so you don't have to do any backtracking.
Barriers to pass the blockade enemies - WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT
also damn, the anubis goes down really fast.  I swear it never goes down that fast when I fight him D:

Shadow Man Stage:
Farming Mcannons was not something I would have imagined doing, honestly, even if they're such a great chip regardless.
holy crap that ninji dodge at the start of area 2
also the panic doublejumps.  Good job, man, that was hilarious.
YOU CAN DO WHAT TO SHADOWMAN?  man that is a timesaver like woah

Final Stage:
I think I started screaming at the screen when that DreamBit you could have just doublejumped over.  LIke... really, it's a tiny stage and that was kind of a wreck.  (Note to self; Still need to test if you can land succsesfully ignoring the ice somehow)
Oh god that Firewall fight is also horrifying.  I still prefer to use Zero against it for sure
Boss Rush is, of course, absolutely hilarious.  As it should be.  I know how hard the ElecMan buster strategy can be, so I'm actually really impressed you pulled it off that cleanly.
Just getting through this mess deathless is pretty awesome really, but I also kind of wish I had your luck against Life Virus.  Really.

OVERALL:
I should list the HP and MP upgrades you pick up and figure out just how necessary they are.  I think you end on 460 HP, which is enough to survive three hits from the strongest foes (Zero and Life Virus), and I want to say that that might not have been necessary at all since you took a couple minor detours - you could actually drop 140 HP (7 upgrades) and still only lose a single hit to those foes, and you don't really come TOO endangered except against that one dreambit that hated your shit at the start of the Undernet.

But yeah.  I just... damn, son.  You really cleaned up the later half of the game, and on top of doing everything deathless saving a whole lot of time by itself...

I've got a lot of catching up to do if I ever want it to be my name next to the run, I think.

(...I can't help but wonder, if it is possible someday for the game to go down to an hour in time...)
doicm
doicm
Edit history:
doicm: 2012-04-05 10:51:21 am
2012-04-05 10:08:12 am
Garlyle, I REALLY appreciate your commentary on this. It gives me ideas on what to do in future runs. However, I know I want to take a little break from this game and try other games. A few more notes regarding the commentary:

Side Trip: I always seem to have my "durrr...." moments here. I don't know why. But yeah, I get a good laugh out of it too. Smiley
I don't know if getting the extra power ups in different areas will help. My main tool for taking down SwordMan, GravityMan, and StarMan is charged shots, so I like having full power ups before going in to face them. I have tried getting the PowerUp before GutsMan from NumberMan, and in very rare cases do I have enough money for that and Heat-V's. I guess if I did try the strategy of going after QuickMan first, I could do that.

SwordMan: Blkyoshi's run actually showed me how to get passed the "AQUA HEAD FHIWEOUIGHOGH THING," so credit goes to him for that. I realized I could also skip the HPMemory next to the AquaSwrd user, but maybe that can be for future runs, no?

GravityMan: I felt everything went really well with this one. I've had flawless GravityMan runs before where it's Charge Shot after Charge Shot nearly continuous (thus making getting Wreckers unnecessary, imo). Also, if I miss getting the RegUP chip in ColorMan, this is my backup as there is one after the exit of the first half of his stage.

StarMan: I finally figured out a decent strategy against StarMan, but not on this fight. I found out that anytime you jump into his line of vision after he uses his Star Arrow attack, he will disappear. Before (and here) I would waste my charged shots trying to hit him even though no matter what he'd disappear. If I jump, let him disappear, and then jump again and attack, I will hit him more often than not.
As for the meteors...sometimes I do well...sometimes I get creamed and have to use a HalfEnrg or Roll (if I'm lucky enough in my chip collection to have her there).

Zero: To be honest, every time I've done a run against Zero since I've started, I've never been hit. EVER. I don't know if you call it extreme luck or that I've got him down to a science, but I'd say the latter. He's now the easiest boss of the entire game for me. I did get very lucky with the DashAtk though :). Another possible strat to use in the future is to preset M-Cannon before jacking in rather than DoubJump and use that in conjunction with charged shots against Zero. I haven't really tested that though, so I don't know if it'll work better or not. I usually have 3 or 4 M-Cannon's by this point, and Zero only has 750 HP. That would deplete from M-Cannons alone anywhere from 360 to 480 HP (assuming all of them hit).
As far as the Barrier strat went, I discovered it when I was making a walkthrough for this game for megaman.wikia.com. I was mentioning an easier way to get through QuickMan's stage if they did not want to memorize every security beam. The barrier chip actually blocks security beams, and there are two ways to have one before that stage: (1) email from Higsby after defeating BrightMan, and (2) get them from the acorn-looking viri in NeedleMan's stage (rare drop). I tested the same against Zero, and, voila!

PharaohMan: Yeah...I skip reading the email from Zero to get the Zero chip. Although it's a great chip, it's only one, and I cannot preset it for use (I think) against Firewall, so I just skip it altogether. I guess I could put it in my chip folder at least...that might be something for future runs. The Barrier strategy was also one I hadn't considered before, but while I had it I might as well make the best use of it.

ShadowMan: I actually thought of a new strategy to use in this level. Regardless of your busting level against StarMan, you get the StrArrow chip from him. Although you only get one, you can zoom past a great portion of the second half of ShadowMan's level. I have yet to test this in an actual run, but in an IL test it worked excellently (although that does run the risk of not having DoubJump available as an emergency). You can also preset StrArrow by this point as it only costs 32 MP and I have 3 reg ups by this point.
Again, credit goes to Blkyoshi for the M-Cannon strat against ShadowMan. Before, I was using up DoubJumps to skip major portions of this stage, but then I did not have the MP to compete against ShadowMan. I'd die most often to him as a result. This is another reason I got the HPMemorys and MemUPs from NumberMan BEFORE going to ShadowMan.

Final Stage: Yeah...I still had DoubJump...I think my brain was screaming at me too. I really am happy if the Barrier chip is in my folder for this level, as I can just walk through all of them. I actually don't mind my strat against the Firewall fight, but it's the best I can think of so far without Zero (and having Zero in the chip folder is luck since I cannot preset it...yet. I forget how much MP it costs to use him, but if I only needed two more RegUP chips, I could probably find them and preset them for this fight). And boss gauntlet..not my greatest. With Life Virus, it actually goes like that every time for the most part. I think I've got that fight consistently down...?

And...I bet this can go down to an hour. We just need (1) more luck and (2) more people like you contributing to strats. Thanks for all the input, and I sincerely hope that someone gets sub hour in this.

EDIT: As an extra note regarding the timing, I started the timer when LAN starts reading the first four emails of the game. I stopped the timer on the last hit of LifeVirusR's core. I think the timer end is pretty set, but the timer beginning is a little iffy. I guess it'll be up to the verifiers to determine when it starts/stops anyway.
Garlyle
2012-04-05 10:26:54 am
That Guy
Yeah, that's fine if you feel you need to take a break; I know I've needed it from this game simply due to GOD DAMNIT LUCK I CAN'T ASDFGH

Anyway, the main thing about the charge shots is that against Gravity Man and Star Man, having a little bit of extra charge speed doesn't really make THAT much of a difference - compared to Zero and especially the Elec Man refight where it makes or breaks your ability to buster them to death.  However, I don't know exactly how much putting off reaching Charge 5 would affect that, which is the point I'll have to experiment on.  If the total time to get the alternate powerups/time lost by not having maxed Charge speed turns out to be more than the 90 seconds used to make the trip, well... then it's much easier to keep going the current way if nothing else.  I suspect grabbing the early powerup might be nice for having five Power (I--wait, if you do Elec Man first, and have one powerup from Numberman. then you can go into Color Man with 5/3 stats.  I wonder if that's fast enough to speed up that fight?  THOUGHTS!)

SwordMan: Yeah, there's spots like that all over the run where a side trip could probably be avoided.

GravityMan: ...I... didn't even realise that you grabbed an extra RegUp during Colorman.  OH RIGHT M-Cannons need it, right, right, herp.  Anyway, dang son, I'd thought you'd done things really fast as it was.  Considering how nonsense Grabityman can be.

StarMan: Yup.  It's about the best you can do.  I had one run where I THINK I was able to put Tree Bombs to use slugging him from below, but I might be misremembering.  This fight is a pain regardless.

Zero: I still consider Zero the hardest boss in the game so apparently I have something to fix!  Anyway, yeah, M-Cannons could speed up the fight further.  As you loop him right now it should have no reason to miss.  I guess when entering into the stage it would probably be worth it as an initial preset, and--
wait, barrier blocks death lasers?
mother of...

PharaohMan: Alright, yeah.  I just got so used to grabbing it, I guess.

ShadowMan: Oh god you can what--okay that's kind of genius.  Not having DoubleJump does sort of potentially suck but the stage isn't actually all that hard or anything, and I think there's only one part where DoubleJump lets you get forward faster?

As for the final stage, Zero's unpresetable - he has a 64 mb size or whatever which just can't be accessed regardless of RegUps.  It's definitely worth a shot, I'd personally think, to see if you can draw him, but honestly Firewall's kind of a pain in the butt so whatever gets you through that fight is fine (Zero kills only the bottom turret too, which makes taking out the top one kind of a pain)

Anyway yeah.  I'm gonna hopefully start getting back into speedrun attempts on this game.  Ahhh, now I'm excited all over again!
doicm
2012-06-15 11:54:34 pm
Little bit of a BUMP here, but thought I'd add a couple more strats to this board that may be used in future runs. They only save a few more seconds each, but they look cool!

ShadowMan's stage: Use of StarArrow instead of DoubJump:
http://www.twitch.tv/doicm/b/321605613

After you defeat StarMan the first time, you get StarArrow pretty much no matter what (at least I do). Instead of using 24 MP each on DoubJump's in ShadowMan's stage, you can use one StarArrow (and one is all you have) for 32 MP to do what several DoubJumps can LOTS faster. Overall, this strat saves about 5 seconds when I compared the two routes. This timing doesn't account for the MP saved for M-Cannons in the ShadowMan fight.

Also, you can preset this chip because it's only 32 MB, the same that's required for presetting an M-Cannon chip.

ElecMan's stage: Use DoubJumps a little earlier to get a little further:
http://www.twitch.tv/doicm/b/321605922

I didn't do a time comparison on this one, but it seems to be much faster than the previous strat. You use one additional DoubJump than before, but you have spares normally in the current route anyway. The video is pretty self-explanatory.

---

Anyway, I don't plan on doing any additional runs of this game, but these are here for those who are interested in taking up this game again.
DarkBluesZX
DarkBluesZX
Edit history:
DarkBluesZX: 2012-06-16 10:41:08 am
2012-06-16 10:40:43 am
Sounds like Maverick talk to me.
Only problem is the boss Fights where you cant really dodge anything and barrier wont help
doicm
2012-06-16 04:04:56 pm
Quote from DarkBluesZX:
Only problem is the boss Fights where you cant really dodge anything and barrier wont help

What boss fights are you referring to exactly? The only boss fights that I can think of that have undodgeable attacks are Zero and LifeVirusR.
doicm
2012-06-21 06:49:59 pm
For those interested in running the game 100%, good luck. Here are some tips for those ever interested:

I did a single segment "100%" run today (with some things taken out of the previous 100% rules published on here). I did the following for 100%:

* Collect at least 1 of every chip (so that it shows 137/137 chips in Library).
* Collect all HPMemorys, MemUPs, and RegUPs (Level 100).
* Collect all the armors and unlock every blue cube.
* Beat the game (of course).

All in all, this process took me 4:31:xx to complete. Half of that time was spent trying to manipulate RNG to give me the chip drops that I needed, but it took me a while, and I still never quite figured it out. The worst was getting the PopUp chip. I encountered the Mole2 twice. The first encounter I had failed to hit him after hit #140 or so. I was able to get the chip after 200 successful hits the second time, but it took me about 20 revisits to that same room to get him to show up the first time. I lost track the second time. Other chips, like the Candle battle chips, HeatShot, and FootStmp took me a while and some luck too.

The boss fights and getting the Navi chips were not troublesome at all. I grinded for Invis3 chips to use in the ProtoMan battle, and I relied on Z-Canon for the Bass battle. Finding all the upgrades took me a while, especially when I had to revisit stages with unlockers for those I was short on. I also had barely enough Zenny by the end (after a ton of revisits) to buy the last HPMemory from NumberMan (costs 32k Zenny).

Something I did discover with manipulating the RNG somewhat for getting some battle chips: If you kill an enemy extremely fast, you'll get its "rarest" chip. If you beat it slightly slower without taking damage, you may get a more common chip drop from the enemy, or you may get a health drop or Zenny. You take too long or do too poorly, you may end up with nothing. I discovered this after killing Scuttlests (the Undernet bugs that shoot lasers) for 15 minutes and only getting LifeAura3's when I wanted a LifeAura2. I was killing them too fast, and I had to figure out a balance.

Regardless, I don't plan on attempting this again, nor do I ever plan on attempting a true 100% run (max count of every battle chip). Getting the PopUp battle chip (Mole2 in Legendary WWW Area 1) and Roll battle chips (would need 3 additional from slot machines in Arcade Comp 2) would require way too much luck and patience to really make it a feasible run. If anyone ever did consider it, I would suggest making it segmented and hoping for the best luck on each segment attempt.
DarkBluesZX
2012-06-21 07:01:00 pm
Sounds like Maverick talk to me.
Quote from doicm:
Quote from DarkBluesZX:
Only problem is the boss Fights where you cant really dodge anything and barrier wont help

What boss fights are you referring to exactly? The only boss fights that I can think of that have undodgeable attacks are Zero and LifeVirusR.



Yeah And if youre not that familar with their behaviors or any boss for that matter It wil be twice as difficult
doicm
2012-06-21 07:11:35 pm
Quote from DarkBluesZX:
Quote from doicm:
Quote from DarkBluesZX:
Only problem is the boss Fights where you cant really dodge anything and barrier wont help

What boss fights are you referring to exactly? The only boss fights that I can think of that have undodgeable attacks are Zero and LifeVirusR.



Yeah And if youre not that familar with their behaviors or any boss for that matter It wil be twice as difficult


For Zero, the only undodgeable attack is his ultimate attack that does 300 damage (the only where he turns invincible, goes to one side of the room and does giant sword slashes). Since I've used the barrier strat, I've had perfect runs against him nearly every time I battle him, so he's not terribly difficult, like you said, if you know the behaviors.

For LifeVirusR, all of his attacks are dodgeable if you know the behaviors. The one that I have the most difficulty dodging is the fire shoot, and I usually have HeatArmr equipped just in case for that battle. His ice attack is a matter of staying back and timing your jump over to dodge the ice. Lightning and wood are a matter of standing in the right spot. I do end up losing quite a bit of health that fight though, so I often buy HalfEnrg's and FullEnrg's beforehand just in case I need them. As far as the core goes, you will not die to him no matter what SO LONG AS you don't touch him directly. The bubbles he drops brings you down to 1 HP no matter what. If you get hit with 2 bubbles in a row, you'll still be at 1 HP.

The hardest part for practicing this game is practicing Zero, since you can't fight him in the NetBattler practice area. Otherwise, it should be relatively easy to learn and practice on each boss individually, whereas with other games where you don't know the pattern, you usually have to play through the entire stage (or use savestates) to work with each boss.