Diablo II: Lord of Destruction - Sub-1hour run (running)

2009-10-04 05:50:32 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Yes, both any% and 100% categories are accepted for all character classes. Now finding people willing to do all of those runs is a different story.

DoctorJohn

2009-10-05 12:06:46 am

Amazon would be fun but Hell would be a little annoying.... Although i guess it would be for everyone besides a hammerdin. Would a lvl 60 Hammerdin even be good? I guess it would depend on loot.

Zurreco

2009-10-05 12:26:06 am

Just call me the cynicism machine

A Hammerdin would be really great in Hell if you don't mind how slow Normal and Nightmare would be. Read the strategy wiki for viable builds.

bimanc

Edit history:

bimanc: 2009-10-05 02:34:04 pm

2009-10-05 01:09:28 pm

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

Quote from Siyko:

Ah, also I didn't know a weapon swap would kill the glitch - i changed weapons because it was easier than taking fireball off my left click, and i didn't want to fireball if i accidentally click enemies while running. I didn't notice any speed change so i'm assuming the thing just didn't work

Umm, i think it kills the glitch. If you equip a new item, or remove something from your character, or something loses all its durability, then the bonus is lost. But i'm not totally sure about weapon switching.

Glorious Edit: For me, it still does not look faster in the yt video, but i cut out two samples with straight-line walking, same frame amounts, and measured the distance you walked. There was a visible difference between the before-after distances, and they were approximately the same when i repeated the whole thing with my assassin. Either i'm stoopid, or you got the bonus.

Beenman500

2009-10-05 03:44:44 pm

Joke of all trades

i don't know if your 100% run's leveling segments were as optimised as these, which look good BTW, but your leveling speed is so marginally better by using 50 segments instead of 2.

also why didn't you get a merc, it served you well for grouping enimies together in your 100%, seems dumb to abuse that again...

i still think an hour is too optimistic

Siyko

2009-10-05 04:16:24 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Quote from Beenman500:

why didn't you get a merc

He's mostly useless until I get teleport, because he just hangs around on the sidelines hitting a foul crow nest and getting killed

Siyko

2009-10-09 09:34:28 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Almost done leveling x_x

fortunately i've been filling my belt with Mana Potions (as opposed to light mana potions) during all the leveling segments, so once I get teleport I should be able to get through most of A2 with them. Every little bit!

Also, 9 chips for staffmod rolling

SkratMan

2009-10-09 01:10:02 pm

[+--oo] In control since '86

Quote from Siyko:

Almost done leveling x_x

fortunately i've been filling my belt with Mana Potions (as opposed to light mana potions) during all the leveling segments, so once I get teleport I should be able to get through most of A2 with them. Every little bit!

Also, 9 chips for staffmod rolling

I'm glad my staffmod roll post is going to make such a difference that it's actually going into the run. Remember to give thanks to me in your commentary! Grin

Seriously, I'm super psyched for your run. As bimanc said in his, once you get past the ActII leveling, this run will be done in practically no time since all you have to do is collect body parts and then teleport to act bosses. Great stuff, really.

Quote from DoctorJohn:

Wrong place for it, but a Lightning Fury/whatever Amazon build would be pretty godly. If you'd like to discuss it, make a new thread. thumbsup

Amazon would be fun but Hell would be a little annoying.... Although i guess it would be for everyone besides a hammerdin. Would a lvl 60 Hammerdin even be good? I guess it would depend on loot.

[quote="Siyko"]
Almost done leveling x_x

fortunately i've been filling my belt with Mana Potions (as opposed to light mana potions) during all the leveling segments, so once I get teleport I should be able to get through most of A2 with them. Every little bit!

Also, 9 chips for staffmod rolling
[/quote]

I'm glad my staffmod roll post is going to make such a difference that it's actually going into the run.  Remember to give thanks to me in your commentary!   ;D

Seriously, I'm super psyched for your run.  As bimanc said in his, once you get past the ActII leveling, this run will be done in practically no time since all you have to do is collect body parts and then teleport to act bosses.  Great stuff, really.

[quote="DoctorJohn"]

Wrong place for it, but a Lightning Fury/whatever Amazon build would be pretty godly.  If you'd like to discuss it, make a new thread.  :thumbsup:
Amazon would be fun but Hell would be a little annoying.... Although i guess it would be for everyone besides a hammerdin. Would a lvl 60 Hammerdin even be good? I guess it would depend on loot.
[/quote]

Smilge

2009-10-10 08:57:24 pm

It's pretty exciting watching the progress on this run. I'm curious on how you decide whether a leveling segment is usable. In one segment (I think) there were no bosspacks, only the super unique beetleburst. Do you have a benchmark on how much exp you want to gain that segment and try for the fastest time, is there a exp/time ratio you're going for, or do you always try to get one or two boss packs and the segment I saw was kept for item drops (I think there was an amulet and a chipped gem in it)?

I'm looking forward to see how fast you can knock out act 3 when you don't need to do all quests.

shoop

2009-10-11 02:19:44 pm

Good luck Siyko on this epic undertaking!

I'm wondering about one thing...

Quote from Hugo123:

I looked up where you can level up the fastest way (without exp penalties):

11-14 Barracks up to Catacombs
15-18 Sewers up to Viperntemple

(I'm sorry if that aren't the correct english names for the places but I think you know where they are anyway.)

After level 18 you will gain the 2 remaining levels up to act 5 anyway so it doesn't matter how you gain them. (Isn't even an exp shrine unnecessary from 18+?)

So this is where I'm doubtful... Seems to me it is perfectly possible for optimal leveling efficiency to occur somewhere where you *do* get an exp penalty... because (a) the monsters have more exp to begin with, and/or (b) the monsters are easier to kill quickly in quantity.

What are your opinions... is that exp penalty chart useful or should you pick leveling locations based on what you've found experimentally to work best? I'd go for the latter.

Siyko

2009-10-11 04:26:05 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Quote from shoop:

Good luck Siyko on this epic undertaking!

I'm wondering about one thing...

Quote from Hugo123:

I looked up where you can level up the fastest way (without exp penalties):

11-14 Barracks up to Catacombs
15-18 Sewers up to Viperntemple

(I'm sorry if that aren't the correct english names for the places but I think you know where they are anyway.)

After level 18 you will gain the 2 remaining levels up to act 5 anyway so it doesn't matter how you gain them. (Isn't even an exp shrine unnecessary from 18+?)

So this is where I'm doubtful... Seems to me it is perfectly possible for optimal leveling efficiency to occur somewhere where you *do* get an exp penalty... because (a) the monsters have more exp to begin with, and/or (b) the monsters are easier to kill quickly in quantity.

What are your opinions... is that exp penalty chart useful or should you pick leveling locations based on what you've found experimentally to work best? I'd go for the latter.

The map decides a lot. Since far oasis has lots of bosspacks + exp shrine in a small vicinity, it's the best spot in a2 to level. I could get better exp per damage in the CV temple, sure, but i can't find as many guys.

[quote="shoop"]
Good luck Siyko on this epic undertaking!

I'm wondering about one thing...

[quote="Hugo123"]
I looked up where you can level up the fastest way (without exp penalties):

11-14	Barracks up to Catacombs
15-18	Sewers up to Viperntemple

(I'm sorry if that aren't the correct english names for the places but I think you know where they are anyway.)

After level 18 you will gain the 2 remaining levels up to act 5 anyway so it doesn't matter how you gain them. (Isn't even an exp shrine unnecessary from 18+?)
[/quote]

So this is where I'm doubtful... Seems to me it is perfectly possible for optimal leveling efficiency to occur somewhere where you *do* get an exp penalty... because (a) the monsters have more exp to begin with, and/or (b) the monsters are easier to kill quickly in quantity.

What are your opinions... is that exp penalty chart useful or should you pick leveling locations based on what you've found experimentally to work best? I'd go for the latter.

[/quote]

The map decides a lot. Since far oasis has lots of bosspacks + exp shrine in a small vicinity, it's the best spot in a2 to level. I could get better exp per damage in the CV temple, sure, but i can't find as many guys.

shoop

Edit history:

shoop: 2009-10-12 06:43:57 am

2009-10-12 06:13:07 am

Quote from Siyko:

The map decides a lot. Since far oasis has lots of bosspacks + exp shrine in a small vicinity, it's the best spot in a2 to level. I could get better exp per damage in the CV temple, sure, but i can't find as many guys.

makes sense. Thanks Siyko.

I do have a couple other questions.

* don't you think spending some more points on vit would decrease the risk of hit recovery related deaths so much that it actually allows you to take larger risks while running? You seemed to have some problems with hit recovery; if I understand correctly, you only go into hit recovery if an attack deals more damage than some % of your life. Or is mana the worse bottleneck? Maybe the suggestion earlier on this forum to use the weapon switch to get out of hit recovery is sufficient?

* another idea that I find interesting:

I know it's incompatible with the present run, but has a more static field oriented sorc build ever been seriously considered? I could find some discussion in the 1:20 sorc thread but that was about a single segment run. I'm talking about a segmented any% run like Siyko's doing now... My plan would be something like:

levels 1-5: use the poison shrine trick to level, save all skill points
level 6: static field, frost nova, telekinesis
level 7: static field, frost nova
level 8: static field, frost nova (by now they would be pretty usable)
level 9-16: static field
level 17: fire bolt
level 18: teleport
level 19: fire ball (and equip Leaf)
level 20+: static field or fireball

During the early game (until you get fireball) you would also use a good staff, say with +frost nova, +static field (and ideally +frozen armor). The reasoning would be as follows: when leveling, you have to attack boss packs. However, the boss himself will have more hitpoints than the minions, so for him static field will be pretty effective. By using sf all monsters will die pretty much at the same time, which is more efficient than the boss outliving his minions.

Pro:
+ hits tougher monsters harder, you'll mostly want to attack tough monsters anyway
+ accessible quite early
+ can put almost all skill points in relevant skills
+ quite safe because of frost nova
+ safer boss killing due to increased sf radius
+ acceptable mana efficiency
+ i think monsters tend to be less lightning resistant than they are fire resistant(?)

Con:
- completely dependent on poison shrine trick for first couple of levels (that's really brilliant btw)
- exploits overpoweredness of fireball and leaf staff to a lesser degree
- SF is quite slow against weak enemies
- perhaps more I haven't thought of...?

The third disadvantage is pretty serious, since most leveling will be done where enemies don't have that many HP. As mentioned in the other thread, SF would be much more effective if you could level on /players 8, which isn't allowed. But if the radius gets large, I'm not sure that you could not get a decent damage per second, even during the earlier levels. Your leveling strategy would have to be a bit different: instead of killing bosspacks one by one, you would have to gather larger mobs and kill them all at the same time to improve damage output per second. Tricky, but perhaps not undoable.

If you *really* felt crazy, you could even go for inferno instead of fireball! (put one point in the warmth synergy at level 17, get inferno at level 19). The leaf staff gives +3 to inferno, +3 to all fire skills, and you'd use a staff with a +3 inferno base mod, so you would jump to level 10 inferno immediately. To compare:

level 7 fireball: 51-67 damage
level 10 inferno with one point in warmth: 110-125 damage per second

of course, you'd be able to fire almost three fireballs per second, but a level 10 inferno has a substantial range of 7.3 yards, it's very cheap in terms of mana, and it's unexpected and fun :-)

Is this viable?

[quote="Siyko"]
The map decides a lot. Since far oasis has lots of bosspacks + exp shrine in a small vicinity, it's the best spot in a2 to level. I could get better exp per damage in the CV temple, sure, but i can't find as many guys.
[/quote]

makes sense. Thanks Siyko.

I do have a couple other questions.

* don't you think spending some more points on vit would decrease the risk of hit recovery related deaths so much that it actually allows you to take larger risks while running? You seemed to have some problems with hit recovery; if I understand correctly, you only go into hit recovery if an attack deals more damage than some % of your life. Or is mana the worse bottleneck? Maybe the suggestion earlier on this forum to use the weapon switch to get out of hit recovery is sufficient?

* another idea that I find interesting:

I know it's incompatible with the present run, but has a more static field oriented sorc build ever been seriously considered? I could find some discussion in the 1:20 sorc thread but that was about a single segment run. I'm talking about a segmented any% run like Siyko's doing now... My plan would be something like:

levels 1-5: use the poison shrine trick to level, save all skill points
level 6: static field, frost nova, telekinesis
level 7: static field, frost nova
level 8: static field, frost nova (by now they would be pretty usable)
level 9-16: static field
level 17: fire bolt
level 18: teleport
level 19: fire ball (and equip Leaf)
level 20+: static field or fireball

During the early game (until you get fireball) you would also use a good staff, say with +frost nova, +static field (and ideally +frozen armor). The reasoning would be as follows: when leveling, you have to attack boss packs. However, the boss himself will have more hitpoints than the minions, so for him static field will be pretty effective. By using sf all monsters will die pretty much at the same time, which is more efficient than the boss outliving his minions.

Pro:
+ hits tougher monsters harder, you'll mostly want to attack tough monsters anyway
+ accessible quite early
+ can put almost all skill points in relevant skills
+ quite safe because of frost nova
+ safer boss killing due to increased sf radius
+ acceptable mana efficiency
+ i think monsters tend to be less lightning resistant than they are fire resistant(?)

Con:
- completely dependent on poison shrine trick for first couple of levels (that's really brilliant btw)
- exploits overpoweredness of fireball and leaf staff to a lesser degree
- SF is quite slow against weak enemies
- perhaps more I haven't thought of...?

The third disadvantage is pretty serious, since most leveling will be done where enemies don't have that many HP. As mentioned in the other thread, SF would be much more effective if you could level on /players 8, which isn't allowed. But if the radius gets large, I'm not sure that you could not get a decent damage per second, even during the earlier levels. Your leveling strategy would have to be a bit different: instead of killing bosspacks one by one, you would have to gather larger mobs and kill them all at the same time to improve damage output per second. Tricky, but perhaps not undoable.

If you *really* felt crazy, you could even go for inferno instead of fireball! (put one point in the warmth synergy at level 17, get inferno at level 19). The leaf staff gives +3 to inferno, +3 to all fire skills, and you'd use a staff with a +3 inferno base mod, so you would jump to level 10 inferno immediately. To compare:

level 7 fireball: 51-67 damage
level 10 inferno with one point in warmth: 110-125 damage per second

of course, you'd be able to fire almost three fireballs per second, but a level 10 inferno has a substantial range of 7.3 yards, it's very cheap in terms of mana, and it's unexpected and fun :-)

Is this viable?

Hugo123

2009-10-12 07:38:02 am

Quote from shoop:

* don't you think spending some more points on vit would decrease the risk of hit recovery related deaths so much that it actually allows you to take larger risks while running? You seemed to have some problems with hit recovery; if I understand correctly, you only go into hit recovery if an attack deals more damage than some % of your life. Or is mana the worse bottleneck? Maybe the suggestion earlier on this forum to use the weapon switch to get out of hit recovery is sufficient?

Correct. As soon as he gets hit for more than 1/12 of his hitpoints he gets into stunlock. Faster hit recovery would be pretty nice for that. Smiley

Siyko

2009-10-12 09:16:40 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Quote from shoop:

makes sense. Thanks Siyko.

I do have a couple other questions.

* don't you think spending some more points on vit would decrease the risk of hit recovery related deaths so much that it actually allows you to take larger risks while running? You seemed to have some problems with hit recovery; if I understand correctly, you only go into hit recovery if an attack deals more damage than some % of your life. Or is mana the worse bottleneck? Maybe the suggestion earlier on this forum to use the weapon switch to get out of hit recovery is sufficient?

Even if I pump vit heavily, I'll still be underlevel for most of the game - and I'm a sorc. The sorc gets crap for HP for every point of vit (2?) so I don't think the difference would be worth it

Quote:

* another idea that I find interesting:

I know it's incompatible with the present run, but has a more static field oriented sorc build ever been seriously considered? I could find some discussion in the 1:20 sorc thread but that was about a single segment run. I'm talking about a segmented any% run like Siyko's doing now... My plan would be something like:

levels 1-5: use the poison shrine trick to level, save all skill points
level 6: static field, frost nova, telekinesis
level 7: static field, frost nova
level 8: static field, frost nova (by now they would be pretty usable)
level 9-16: static field
level 17: fire bolt
level 18: teleport
level 19: fire ball (and equip Leaf)
level 20+: static field or fireball

During the early game (until you get fireball) you would also use a good staff, say with +frost nova, +static field (and ideally +frozen armor). The reasoning would be as follows: when leveling, you have to attack boss packs. However, the boss himself will have more hitpoints than the minions, so for him static field will be pretty effective. By using sf all monsters will die pretty much at the same time, which is more efficient than the boss outliving his minions.

Pro:
+ hits tougher monsters harder, you'll mostly want to attack tough monsters anyway
+ accessible quite early
+ can put almost all skill points in relevant skills
+ quite safe because of frost nova
+ safer boss killing due to increased sf radius
+ acceptable mana efficiency
+ i think monsters tend to be less lightning resistant than they are fire resistant(?)

Con:
- completely dependent on poison shrine trick for first couple of levels (that's really brilliant btw)
- exploits overpoweredness of fireball and leaf staff to a lesser degree
- SF is quite slow against weak enemies
- perhaps more I haven't thought of...?

The third disadvantage is pretty serious, since most leveling will be done where enemies don't have that many HP. As mentioned in the other thread, SF would be much more effective if you could level on /players 8, which isn't allowed. But if the radius gets large, I'm not sure that you could not get a decent damage per second, even during the earlier levels. Your leveling strategy would have to be a bit different: instead of killing bosspacks one by one, you would have to gather larger mobs and kill them all at the same time to improve damage output per second. Tricky, but perhaps not undoable.

If you *really* felt crazy, you could even go for inferno instead of fireball! (put one point in the warmth synergy at level 17, get inferno at level 19). The leaf staff gives +3 to inferno, +3 to all fire skills, and you'd use a staff with a +3 inferno base mod, so you would jump to level 10 inferno immediately. To compare:

level 7 fireball: 51-67 damage
level 10 inferno with one point in warmth: 110-125 damage per second

of course, you'd be able to fire almost three fireballs per second, but a level 10 inferno has a substantial range of 7.3 yards, it's very cheap in terms of mana, and it's unexpected and fun :-)

Is this viable?

My biggest fear with this is survival. When I have to kill folks with frost nova, I am casting it constantly and they are not dying until the end, where they all die at the same time. This means all of them are alive the whole battle - ganging up on me.

With fireball, if I have a giant crowd of enemies, I can cast fireball and kill the pack closest to me, and the next closest pack has to walk forward and then die. Basically nobody gets a chance to stay alive while right next to me, so nobody gets to hit me, so I don't have to move while casting, so my killing speed increases.

I've thought about static, but in test runs, survival was always the most difficult part.

[quote="shoop"]

makes sense. Thanks Siyko.

I do have a couple other questions.

* don't you think spending some more points on vit would decrease the risk of hit recovery related deaths so much that it actually allows you to take larger risks while running? You seemed to have some problems with hit recovery; if I understand correctly, you only go into hit recovery if an attack deals more damage than some % of your life. Or is mana the worse bottleneck? Maybe the suggestion earlier on this forum to use the weapon switch to get out of hit recovery is sufficient?
[/quote]
Even if I pump vit heavily, I'll still be underlevel for most of the game - and I'm a sorc. The sorc gets crap for HP for every point of vit (2?) so I don't think the difference would be worth it
[quote]
* another idea that I find interesting: