Diablo II: Lord of Destruction

Edit history:

coolek: 2005-07-29 11:14:46 pm

2005-07-29 11:14:18 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

yeah... lag.com is right... i didn't want to blame anybody... just my thoughts... just wanted to say that here, in d2 it's too easy to make an unfair fastest run...

sorry if it seems to you too agressive :))

Gorash

2005-07-30 12:09:14 am

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Nah the point is more that you're comparing uncomparable stuff.

Diablo2 is a lot randomness by nature, so the build is extremely important. When I posted my first videos I had something around 3-3.5h in mind. Marsh brought it down to 2h by just changing one thought.

In quake all routes are well established and improvements are down to skill. In Diablo the route is still the thing that improves most. I dare say that if someone just rips off marshs strat and does a run on a cheated version he's gonna be bested by a legit runner with a different route.

Once all the routes are tried and tested and it's down to luck, the interest fades quickly anyway (ne, Zurreco? Aria of Sorrow TAS?)

Until then, I don't care if the game is easy to break. Cheaters can wait until we had our fun. Wink

Siyko

2005-08-02 02:44:46 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

jsut wana say its up

kamikaeseML

2005-08-05 12:47:52 pm

imho there is a good improvementpossibility with the asa...
the shadow warrior cast afaik the same skills as the the asa..

so you can double the amount of traps, which means a great increasement of killingspeed in act 4 and 5

also he is a good blocker --> saving time for runnning away (like in the part with the ancients...)

i think with twice as much traps it would be possible to beat the sorc again

Gorash

2005-08-05 01:02:00 pm

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Tried that already.

The shadow warrior is so incredibly dumb that it takes more luck than getting 5 uniques in a row to get her to cast the right spell at the right time.

And for "good blocker" write "mana consuming one hit meat shield", as she only takes one hit later and has to be resummoned every 5 seconds.

But still, thanks for the suggestion, if you have others, fire away.

kamikaeseML

2005-08-05 01:34:55 pm

normally the sw uses the skills you have on your two mousebuttons...
that was my experience with my nromal trapassin...

so i had nearly all the times 10 traps...
so it is really easy to use him
so he cast e.g. always traps on the ancients, what isnt wrong ^^

correct me, if im wrong

also you can use the buying method of the sorc...
that is much faster than the buying allways one potion...
okay, att all, i think, you cant save more then one minute, but thats a lot in speedrunning

Siyko

2005-08-05 01:46:19 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

The shadow warrior requires a lot of prereqs to get, and would hardly help leveling at all. In bosses, it would go down in one hit to everything (it wouldn't be running away), and cost mana and casting time every 5 seconds. You'll get more damage by putting the points into traps.

kamikaeseML

2005-08-05 02:15:19 pm

you need 4 points for the sw
by killing izual, who is on the way, you get 2 skillpoints more

so you need only 2 skillpoints...

as long as you prevent him from going into melee fights(by using those firebombs on the left mousebutton) , he will survive, especially, when he also has speed burst

and what is more expensive... the manacost for a sw or the manacost for more than 5 traps (he will even cast 5 when he dies very fast...)

the asa must use a hireling for some enemys, so there is a target more--> sw dies not so fast.... (for bosses i would take an act2 prayer merc he is 1st target for the boss--> a lot of free dmg from sw and asa until the merc get his 2 hits and dies ^^)

imho the sw could increase the killspeed

those 80 secs for leveling in part8 would be better used by killing izual...

Emuraperif

2005-08-05 02:15:34 pm

The Shadow Warrior/Master shares your trap limit... You'll still have a maximum of 5 out.

kamikaeseML

2005-08-05 02:18:19 pm

@emu there are several guides for trapassins w/ using the the sw
and my experience is, that the sw increases the amount of traps...

Emuraperif

2005-08-05 02:25:19 pm

http://strategy.diabloii.net/news.php?id=538#How_many_traps_{sentries}_can_the_Assass

"Do note that the Traps that your Shadow casts also counts towards this limit. For example, if you had five WoI traps active, and your Shadow casts an LS, one of your WoI traps would be destroyed and replaced with your Shadows's LS."

Coriolanus

2005-08-05 02:34:51 pm

What would be better would be cloak of shadows in order to bypass some of the monsters. Ideally, one should hit level 20 or there abouts in act three allowing nothing but a bee-line to the end. If the assassin has cloask of shadows, that beeline becomes more viable.

The verdict is still out on the shadow assassin. With proper mana management she really isnt all that much of a burden; but the 4 skill points are pretty painful. If it can shave 25% off the boss fights it may be worth it.

As far as izzy goes, i dont think the assassin can spare the time on him, he is a long fight. Once the assassin hits clvl 20 she should focus exclusively on killing the big targets: mephisto, the three seal guardians, the ancients, and baals gang. After all, she is an assassin 8)

Siyko

2005-08-05 02:57:00 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

kamikaese, i think you're missing a few key points.

-The 80 seconds to hit level 20 cannot be sacrificed. Level 20 is a neccesity. After this, there is no reason to get any exp.

-4 skill points is a LOT when you get your main skill at level 12, and only are gonna go up to level 21, and you get no +skill items.

-Coriolanus is right about the bosses and izzy. The asn has no time to slow down. Izzy would take a long time.

-Setting a cast to left click makes running quite difficult.

-Even if this all weren't an issue, the SW would be using your 5 trap limit, and ruining your organized placement of traps.

Kaldron

2005-08-06 02:35:31 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

did you ever thought about a teamrun?
a sorc + another char could increase the speed also...
maybe an assa?
or a necro with skels

both would be a nice support in the first 2 acts

but of course there is a problem...
the maptrick will not work, because you cant know the map in teamgames without using maphack
on the other hand there a lot of pros:
- splitting enables a lot (e.g. one could run, while the other makes the +skill quest --> killspeedincreasement, e.g. in act 3 one could run through, while the other is searching in the dungeons for khalims stuff and so on)
- 2 did more dmg then 1 ^^
when actbosses came,
one must leave the game for the moment-->normal hp
- there is no need in getting lvl 20 for both chars...
while one runs, the other could exp...
- until the sorc is lvl 18 the asa has to run... during this period the sorc can xp alot --> she gains lvl 18 sooner --> teleport can be used sooner

of course there are some tries needed (you need mapluck)
but it would be quite an interesting thing, whether this could beat the soloruns
i think, yes

did you ever thought about a teamrun?
a sorc + another char could increase the speed also...
maybe an assa? 
or a necro with skels

both would be a nice support in the first 2 acts

but of course there is a problem...
the maptrick will not work, because you cant know the map in teamgames without using maphack 
on the other hand there a lot of pros:
- splitting enables a lot (e.g. one could run, while the other makes the +skill quest --> killspeedincreasement, e.g. in act 3 one could run through, while the other is searching in the dungeons for khalims stuff and so on)
- 2 did more dmg then 1 ^^
when actbosses came, 
one must leave the game for the moment-->normal hp
- there is no need in getting lvl 20 for both chars...
while one runs, the other could exp...
- until the sorc is lvl 18 the asa has to run...  during this period the sorc can xp alot --> she gains lvl 18 sooner --> teleport can be used sooner

of course there are some tries needed (you need mapluck)
but it would be quite an interesting thing, whether this could beat the soloruns
i think, yes

Gorash

2005-08-06 02:45:02 am

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Quote:

did you ever thought about a teamrun?

We did.
In fact this was the original idea, and all your advantages are true as well as your mentioned disadvantages.

But the main flaw is: It's friggin' impossible to get even two people long enough for this together.

We know the game is about 2 hours long. If you try every segment for just 5 times (few), that's 10 hours that both players have to spend together.

And the other problem is recording... How do you publish 2x 2 hours of run?

Kaldron

2005-08-06 03:47:28 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

10h, two people together?

I never said, that i want to do it on one day(even this is possible on lan with a friend) those ego-shooterfreaks also need an eternity for their runs, so that would be a bigger projekt ^^

the publishing problem is imho worse
i see only one solution: a splitscreen (with maybe overlapping corners)
of course even there the movie would get bigger then the normal ones, but I think the moviesize should not be the obstacle

whats your opinion about the best team?
really sorc+assa?

and of course, for this 2 volunteers are needed, who would do this run ^^

Siyko

Edit history:

Siyko: 2005-08-06 03:59:53 am

2005-08-06 03:59:23 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

I've had many 4 player 18+ hour diablo 2 lans... but this requires a little more organization. I think the best team would indeed be sorc/asn. There'd be a whole lot of planning though, it would be really fun to plan if there weren't so much inherent randomness in the game Sad

I figure both would stick together for act 1, asn would do all the quests of act 2 as the sorc does sewers (trade TP's to get book of skill, and CV ammy), and leveling. Sorc would run arcane as asn rushes summoner, and goes for the tomb (both these characters level optimally in these places). Act 3 the sorc teles to all the destinations as the asn can focus on leveling in the jungles (especially kurast). Sorc takes on high council herself, runs to meph, asn hits 20 at about same time meph is up, they team up to kill, sorc rushes RoF (drops TP near izzy), asn kills izzy, both clear CS bosses together (sorc drops tp's for asn at each), kill ol' D. Act 5 is all sorc, but the asn will just hang around and help with the minions.

I think it'd be cool!

edit: im not doing it Tongue

I've had many 4 player 18+ hour diablo 2 lans... but this requires a little more organization. I think the best team would indeed be sorc/asn. There'd be a whole lot of planning though, it would be really fun to plan if there weren't so much inherent randomness in the game :(

I figure both would stick together for act 1, asn would do all the quests of act 2 as the sorc does sewers (trade TP's to get book of skill, and CV ammy), and leveling. Sorc would run arcane as asn rushes summoner, and goes for the tomb (both these characters level optimally in these places). Act 3 the sorc teles to all the destinations as the asn can focus on leveling in the jungles (especially kurast). Sorc takes on high council herself, runs to meph, asn hits 20 at about same time meph is up, they team up to kill, sorc rushes RoF (drops TP near izzy), asn kills izzy, both clear CS bosses together (sorc drops tp's for asn at each), kill ol' D. Act 5 is all sorc, but the asn will just hang around and help with the minions.

I think it'd be cool!

edit: im not doing it  :P

Umbra

2005-08-06 04:52:07 am

It'd be really neat if you could make a run with two players. Radix wouldn't accept it, however, it'd be fun to watch. You could record the run on both computers, and somehow, find a way to post it into one video. Let's say have a border between both of the screen showing who did what. I'd love to watch it if that happened, but it would be way too complex and probably a slow loading process. Maybe even terrible quality.

Radix

2005-08-06 05:28:40 am

I'm addicted to games

Quote:

It'd be really neat if you could make a run with two players. Radix wouldn't accept it,

Do you people not read the news Huh?

Apathy

2005-08-06 05:34:16 am

King n00b!

It's time for the site's first (non-Quake) speed run performed by two guys

kimae

2005-08-06 06:03:53 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Aren't the maps random every time in multiplayer?

Gorash

2005-08-06 07:21:35 am

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Still possible, just very random.

And getting both players alive through the last two acts will be a pain.

Kaldron

2005-08-06 11:53:16 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

not everything is random...
there are longer description about the "directions" to move in levels...
and most dungeons have always the same build, that meens, you only have to stay left or right and will find the exit very fast
i don't know, whether this description also exists in english, i only know the german one

and of course, there are some tries needed, but at the end, this teamwork would be much faster imho

siyko description is nearly the same, what i thounght about, when i wrote "splitting enables a lot" ( i would made sow changes, e.g. when both get level 6, the sorc did q1)

planing those run is difficult, i know
the problem is to calculate, how much xp they both get during the splitting periods

Kaldron

2005-08-06 02:10:28 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I thought a bit about a teamrun and played a bit with the skillcalc
atm i think a necro would be a better supporter for the sorc...

for my calculation i assume 24 skillpoints (lvl 21+izual+radament+de of evil)...
mass skells(20 points finally in skels, 3 in the mastery)+1 point in AD (and you can keep the +skel staff from the beginning)

-->
Mana cost: 26
Number of skeletons: 9
Damage: 56 - 58 (ø57.5)
Attack Rating: 363
Defense: 365
Hit Points: 450
Resist lightning/cold/fire: 0%

that are 9 nearly perfect supporter with a good dmg-output (wit AD 115 dmg, 9 times...)
main adavantage is, that skels is a lvl1 skill...
so you can enhance the skill from the beginning, always having a good killskill
those 9 skels also mean, that you can run without any obstacles, because most monster will attack the skels, not you

in a teamrun, it isn't so hard to get the corpses, because the sorc can start running, while the nec kills some a1 monsters

another advantage is, that the necro can do most of the work on lowlevel alone...
so the sorc can use fireball, what increases the dmgoutput a lot
compare!
23 skillpoints-2 for tele-1 for static=20:
10 charged bolt - 10 lightning:
lightning:
Mana cost: 12.5
Lightning damage: 1 - 216 (ø108.5)

10 firebolt-10 fireball
fireball:
Mana cost: 9.5
Fire damage: 178 - 219 (ø199)

on a solorun fireball would be worse than lightning, because without charged bolt it is hard to run fast through act1
but the skels are strong enough for most areas in act1...
and firebolt is a great skills vs. andariel (think of her fireresistance)

what du you think about this team?

I thought a bit about a teamrun and played a bit with the skillcalc
atm i think a necro would be a better supporter for the sorc...

for my calculation i assume 24 skillpoints (lvl 21+izual+radament+de of evil)...
mass skells(20 points finally in skels, 3 in the mastery)+1 point in AD (and you can keep the +skel staff from the beginning)

-->
Mana cost: 26
Number of skeletons: 9
Damage: 56 - 58 (ø57.5)
Attack Rating: 363
Defense: 365
Hit Points: 450
Resist lightning/cold/fire: 0%

that are 9 nearly perfect supporter with a good dmg-output (wit AD 115 dmg, 9 times...)
main adavantage is, that skels is a lvl1 skill...
so you can enhance the skill from the beginning, always having a good killskill
those 9 skels also mean, that you can run without any obstacles, because most monster will attack the skels, not you

in a teamrun, it isn't so hard to get the corpses, because the sorc can start running, while the nec kills some a1 monsters

another advantage is, that the necro can do most of the work on lowlevel alone...
so the sorc can use fireball, what increases the dmgoutput a lot
compare!
23 skillpoints-2 for tele-1 for static=20:
10 charged bolt - 10 lightning:
lightning:
Mana cost: 12.5
Lightning damage: 1 - 216 (ø108.5)

10 firebolt-10 fireball
fireball:
Mana cost: 9.5
Fire damage: 178 - 219 (ø199)

on a solorun fireball would be worse than lightning, because without charged bolt it is hard to run fast through act1
but the skels are strong enough for most areas in act1...
and firebolt is a great skills vs. andariel (think of her fireresistance)

what du you think about this team?

Siyko

2005-08-06 02:23:33 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

I don't think a necro would work.

-Firebolt and Skeletons are both insanely slow for act 1. And act 2. Fireball doesn't compare to the killing power of Lightning + CB in later acts either. It just doesn't hit enough guys at once.

-Skeletons while the necro can run forward? When would the necro be running to the next point? They're both going to want to fight until the sorc hits 18, and then theres no reason to run anywhere. Plus, the skeletons would fall behind and despawn pretty quickly.

-It would be nice in CS and baal's minions to have hte skelly's, but it's just too much of a sacrifice. Sorc would have to be carrying him through the first 3 acts.

I tried a skellemancer run after doing some similar theory work, but it was just insanely slow in act 1. Coming to a big pack of guys, waiting for my skeletons to walk up and start attacking them 1 at a time, eventually killing one and then dying... it's really slow.