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Visually Appealing
Messing up with Yoko's backdashes is unfortunate. I don't understand why there's issue with it. But then again, I haven't tried myself.

It looks good otherwise.
Quits halfway
Well, looks like I'm redoing it. Was cleaning my hard drive and forgot that I shouldn't erase all backups of prospective segments... pretty smart...

At the risk of sounding whiny, here's why I have an issue with Yoko's backdash.

The main problem is variability of timing. Unlike most movement techniques, it's not just "repeat this every 20 frames," but can vary a lot depending on if you're going downhill or uphill, and how high you jump. On flat ground, ideally, I only hit the jump button as short a time as possible, giving Yoko a very small jump, so she can repeat the backdashing very quickly. The problem is that if this is going well, but I accidentally hold jump longer than usual, the jump is now longer, and so my timing gets thrown off, the L doesn't register since Yoko's in the air, but will have landed by the time I hit jump again. Messing up on this is really easy, or rather, it's hard to do it perfectly.

On slopes, it's the same issue. Uphill's generally no problem, landing earlier means you have less chance of missing a backdash (although sometimes I'll jump higher to clear more of the slope, which can throw off my rhythm). Downhill is a problem though. Yoko stays in the air longer, and it's hard to gauge exactly when she'll land (especially since she starts slowing down after a certain length of time), and this is what happened near the end, I just misjudged when she'd land. The second one in that room was me being dumb and not depressing L fully.


So yeah, that's pretty much my issue with it, I could just be bad at timing, but since no one else has really tried, I can't really say.
Joke of all trades
i recently went through DOS julius mode and i can testify with aftermath that the backdash is anoying, and as it is about 1.5-2 times faster than walking,  the occasional screw up isn't an issue.

however i had great sucess jumping a little after yoko performs a little of her backdash, rather than ASAP, as the speed of the backdash only deteriarates near the end of its animation, this alows you to perform less backdashes to cover the same distance in the same time, i found it easier at least and had more sucess

note: i wasn't trying to speedrun or anything, but julius runs like a pussy,

p.s. dont tell julius i said that
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
Hey Aftermath:

NO JOHNS

Seriously though, keep at it.
Edit history:
Aftermath: 2010-07-09 11:36:42 pm
Quits halfway
I think this is submission worthy.
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
O_O

Do it!
Quits halfway
Well, this sucks.



I thought I was done with warp runs for at least a little bit.
boss
Finally  :)!
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
OH SHIIIIIIII--
Edit history:
Aftermath: 2010-08-04 01:20:17 am
Quits halfway
(4:04) save time

After seeing it, I wish it was a second lower, but I think it's acceptable. That's about the fastest that I can make Flying Armor, I've never seen 1:52 at the timecheck after that fight. I tried to use as many damage boosts as I could, on basically anything that doesn't die in one hit. The TAS boosts past the Golem, but I've never been able to get it to work.

Errors:
Platforming - Lose fractions of a second every time I overjump to a platform, which is every time : /
Sliding - Miss a few ledges, and didn't get the slide from the door of the lab (basically luck to get it though)
Last Student Witch - Hesitate on the damage boost a bunch because I had messed up a bunch of attempts in that spot
Manticore - Wasn't looking at Soma and mistimed the landing cancel; looks really, really bad
Cutscene skip - Pause early, maybe lose time on skipping it afterward
Saving - Probably a bit late hitting yes, but the lag on that menu is stupid so blehh

Let me know if there's anything else I missed, I'll redo the segment if anyone thinks I should.


Also, I realized that I can maybe salvage this file for the non-warp run as well. It'd require getting another Axe Armor soul in the same segment as Manticore. I can't remember if the first trip to Hammer's shop is actually necessary outside of buying the axe. I'll probably have to go back and watch Satoryu's run and see if that can be skipped. If so, then that'd be maybe 10 seconds or so saved from not needing to go over there. Flying Armor wouldn't be faster from this save though, since it's only 2 seconds faster and the save file is 2 seconds over an ideal segment 1 (fucking warg).
Visually Appealing
Probably depends on how many Mind Ups you plan on using. If you don't need them right now, then you could cut out the trip.
Is the warpless NG route on the KB up to date?
Quits halfway
Yeah. Only things would be using a different save at the end of 5 and maybe taking the upper route in segment 12.
Is Bhuj really worth it? Without it, I'd just do this:

Bat Company
Buy 18 Mind Ups
Get Erinys
Paranoia 2 - Erinys
Get Mana Prism from Paranoia 1 mirror
Get Mana Prism on your way in Pinnacle
Aguni - Axe, 3-4 hits each
Death 1: Ukoback, Erinys
Death 2: Erinys
Stolas?

Depending on performance, you can still have some leftover Mind Ups after Abaddon. Then just sell all useless stuff before Menace and restock. I'm also assuming no other shop visits besides these two, I wasn't really sure after reading your route. I'm probably missing something, but I just thought I'd mention it.
Edit history:
Aftermath: 2010-08-18 04:11:03 pm
Aftermath: 2010-08-18 04:08:00 pm
Quits halfway
As far as I can tell, the Bhuj is definitely worth it in a warpless NG. It's way stronger than anything else you can get and ended up making boss fights conveniently fast/work with MP constraints. If you skip that shopping trip, and skip the Bhuj entirely, you'll run out of MP on a lot of bosses and I think end up slower than taking the time to go shopping. In DoS, time freezes on the shop screens, so the only time penalty is warping there and navigating that room. With the save file I have (with the free axe), it'd be possible to skip going to Hammer's, but regardless, you still want a Bhuj.

You're free to test though, and maybe watch the old semi-warp NG run I did forever ago to see how I fared on bosses with the Claymore (and skipping the shopping iirc?). Not manipulating the Manticore would be nice. See edit.

Not sure why you'd want to use Erinys so much, it's pretty bad if you don't have the Chaos Ring. It takes 45 MP per use, whereas Ukoback is somewhere around 10, if memory serves. You'd just be wasting all of your Mind Ups, and Erinys doesn't really outdamage Paranoia I don't think.

Death's not weak to holy, Ukoback is better.

Getting Stolas could be worth it, someone should test how much more it does to Menace with that over Lilith.

Edit: Went back and watched a few boss fights from my old run, not a huge difference in them without Bhuj. I don't know if you're going to try and SDA run or just a practice one, but it'd definitely be something to test.

And yeah, there's only the two shopping trips.
Edit history:
Serris: 2010-08-18 04:14:56 pm
Where do you run out of MP? With the route I posted, I didn't.

Erinys is mainly for Death 2, which should be faster since it has better reach. He floats and warps around way too much.

I'm just looking into the route a bit. No need to run it if you're already doing it.
Edit history:
Aftermath: 2010-08-18 04:23:47 pm
Aftermath: 2010-08-18 04:22:31 pm
Aftermath: 2010-08-18 04:21:15 pm
Aftermath: 2010-08-18 04:16:09 pm
Quits halfway
Paranoia and Aguni needed Mind Ups. With your route though, there wouldn't be any trouble since you have Mind Ups at that point (in the first Hammer trip, you could only buy a few Mind Ups iirc).

Ukoback has surprisingly vertical reach, I don't remember having any trouble killing Death quickly, just have to manipulate for him to stay low each time. Any idea how long your Death fight was, mine was apparently about 90 seconds. That and how many Mind Ups did you go through?

Edit: Well, when I run it (any% warping and ng+ all bosses are first), I'm just going to go with the current strategy more or less. The super delayed shopping that I'd do gives more leeway on the last few fights, since Menace eats up a ton of Mind Ups. I should look into grabbing at least one Mana Prism though, not sure where the Pinnacle one is, but even one would be nice against Aguni. And I'd say you should give the run a shot, would be nice to see if I'm losing huge amounts of time in certain sections compared to what you're doing.
There's enough stuff to sell on your way really, there shouldn't be any money issues. Aquarius Robe+small stuff on the first trip, Fragarach+Cutall+Lance on the second trip should suffice. Durandal is also an option for supporting weapon or money.

No idea about my Death fight, I was just testing mana management. If you can do it with Ukoback alone quickly enough, that's even better. Could also work on Paranoia, but I doubt it's enough to cut out the second shop visit.

Is NG+ All Bosses an SDA category?
Quits halfway
Oh, didn't see that you'd be restocking before Menace, and yeah, money wouldn't be an issue. If you're making two trips anyway, what's the point of skipping Bhuj? As far as I can figure, the only way that'd be a viable option is if you only do one shopping trip.

I also just realized that you aren't playing the route currently, just thinking it through (or am I doubly wrong?). You could ration out Mind Ups on Paranoia, Aguni, Death, and Menace to only require that one trip (since it would save a pretty big chunk of time), but it'd probably be really arduous to test. You'd have to make it to Menace, then get through with as few Mind Ups as possible, then work out how to use the leftovers on the other bosses. I know that you can squeeze by with just 1 Mind Up on Paranoia without affecting the time much, and in one of the Aguni videos I had posted, I didn't use very many either. Death would be tricky without liberal recovery.


About all bosses, I thought I had cleared it with Mike as a 100%-type category, since it'd be killing all of the bosses and picking up every non-random soul on the map (Hippogryph/Doppleganger). I'll ask him about it again sometime.
I don't think you can cut out a second trip in either version, unless you delay synthesizing Bhuj until after Bat Company.

I was playing the route while thinking it through. Tongue As I said, it's very possible I'm missing something.

For NG+ 100%, wouldn't you just get all (non-random?) souls you lose at the start of the game? Meaning you would skip all bosses that don't give you one of these abilities.
Edit history:
Aftermath: 2010-08-18 05:39:21 pm
Quits halfway
No, probably not. 100% souls is also an arbitrary 100%, since it wouldn't necessarily mean 100% map, which is the other thing the game tracks. Either way, I wouldn't do either of those, and the category came about because I thought of a neat route to kill all of the bosses and talked Mike into allowing it (I think).

And actually, as far as the 100% souls go, it would be possible to glitch for them in just a few minutes, then activate The Abyss and go finish. The "all bosses/non-random abilities" category makes sense to me since it clears every part of the castle, but leaves out tedious map backtracking and doesn't abuse glitching for soul completion (although I'm considering glitching for Black Panther at the start, since it wouldn't break the clock in a non-recoverable way). The non-random part is there so that it doesn't require segmenting for no purpose other than to get the "move in water/mud" ability soul, since the route was made for an SS.
Well, the point of 100% would be not glitching the non-random souls that make up the 100% definition, same way you get each individual Skulltula in Zelda OoT once instead of getting one of them several times.
Edit history:
Aftermath: 2010-08-19 11:38:26 am
Quits halfway
Well, for doing anything with a label of 100% souls, you'd really have to get the random souls too (there's just 3). There's only 4 skipped bosses (well, would be beneficial to get the Menace skip to make that 5), but to me it seems kind of silly to skip bosses in something labeled 100%. All bosses is a clear definition and I think is a rather "complete" run of the game. There's also the fact that using a 100% soul definition would mean that you'd never have a NG 100% run.

And, as I said before, the category is really just to show off an awesome route that beats all of the bosses in a very quick and unexpected manner (although I may try out a NG run of it at some point). Mike gave a weak confirmation that all bosses works as a category (asked him last night), but if you still have disagreements, could probably bring them up to him when I or someone else gets closer to running it.
After a bit more testing without Bhuj, here's what I got:

Bat Company
Buy 18 Mind Ups
Paranoia 2 - Ukoback (2 Mind Ups, but actually something like 1.5, I think - had a fair bit of missed Ukobacks)
Aguni - Axe Armor (2 High Mind Ups, fairly manageable if you get mostly 4 axe hits each, just manipulate a fight with lots of fireball spewing so he doesn't float around so much)
Death - Ukoback (2 High and 1 normal Mind Up)

With no Mind Ups on Abaddon, the leftovers (+ the 2 Mana Prisms) were pretty much exactly enough to kill Menace. This was without Stolas, even, so one shopping trip looks feasible.

Also, if you can kill Paranoia with one Mind Up, you could also use the 2 Prisms for Aguni and and insert the shopping trip afterwards, at which point you will have enough money to buy 18 Potions as well if you need them.
Quits halfway
Sounds like delaying the shopping trip is better. A few questions though. On Abaddon, how did your fight go compared with what I wrote in the KB? What level were you at the Death fight? And what was your final time (just curious to see how it compares to my old test run). I guess I'm being convinced that the Bhuj isn't necessary, although I do remember using it a lot on bosses, but it may have been sub-optimal playing on my part.

I don't think moving the shopping trip after Aguni is necessary, needing the potions would mean failing at speedrunning (just saying that idk where you'd even start to use them).

I think that if there's money left over, I'd go ahead and get the Bhuj during that shopping trip. I think that the short walk to Yoko's would be saved just during the Aguni fight. It'd be another 8 seconds as well for the save though, so I may have to try it either on emu or AR.