Axiom Verge

scottm

Edit history:

scottm: 2015-05-16 10:53:21 am

scottm: 2015-04-09 09:08:21 pm

2015-04-09 08:32:49 pm

Axiom Verge is a retro-styled metroidvania. Currently out on PS4 and coming to PC later this year.

There is a speedrun mode that should be used for all runs - it removes all cutscenes, text boxes, and RNG. There is also a timer which splits after each boss which is very handy. However, all times should be recorded in real time, not the in-game time, as this run takes advantage of warping to save points via quitting to the menu and loading your game.

Notes:
- There are fast and reliable strats for the majority of bosses, here is a link to YT channel Synophis which has all the current quickest kills uploaded https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCgoYMLaVSCB821DshQs18g
- Certain guns (eg. nova) can fire through walls and lasers from certain distances, this is a glitch and is not 100% reliable.
- The drone can be fired through 1 block wide walls when you are standing right next to them.
- You can infinitely fly when you get the drone teleport. Shoot your drone up in the air > teleport to it > quickly fire the Address Disruptor (glitch gun) > repeat. This has to be done very quickly. Usually there is a cooldown period between teleporting to your drone and firing another one, but using the the disruptor resets it.
- Teleporting is faster than running. Combine the drone teleporting technique with trench coat/red coat teleports for maximum movement speed.
- If you switch weapons while firing the Shard gun shards continue to fire from the point where you switched (like a turret), would be useful in a 100% run for really quick kills on Sentinel and final boss. Not sure if its quicker to go out the way to get the gun on any% yet. It could be as the gun isn't too far off the normal route.
Edit: Seems to stop registering hits after the first hit(?). needs more testing.

Here is the current best time, ran by Synophis:

Thread title:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/lDl1cwQ.png[/img] [img]http://i.imgur.com/mEgsncj.jpg[/img]

Axiom Verge is a retro-styled metroidvania. Currently out on PS4 and coming to PC later this year.

There is a speedrun mode that should be used for all runs - it removes all cutscenes, text boxes, and RNG. There is also a timer which splits after each boss which is very handy. However, all times should be recorded in real time, not the in-game time, as this run takes advantage of warping to save points via quitting to the menu and loading your game.

Notes:
- There are fast and reliable strats for the majority of bosses, here is a link to YT channel Synophis which has all the current quickest kills uploaded [url]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCgoYMLaVSCB821DshQs18g[/url]
- Certain guns (eg. nova) can fire through walls and lasers from certain distances, this is a glitch and is not 100% reliable.
- The drone can be fired through 1 block wide walls when you are standing right next to them.
- You can infinitely fly when you get the drone teleport. Shoot your drone up in the air > teleport to it > quickly fire the Address Disruptor (glitch gun) > repeat. This has to be done very quickly. Usually there is a cooldown period between teleporting to your drone and firing another one, but using the the disruptor resets it.
- Teleporting is faster than running. Combine the drone teleporting technique with trench coat/red coat teleports for maximum movement speed.
- If you switch weapons while firing the Shard gun shards continue to fire from the point where you switched (like a turret), [s]would be useful in a 100% run for really quick kills on Sentinel and final boss. Not sure if its quicker to go out the way to get the gun on any% yet. It could be as the gun isn't too far off the normal route.[/s] 
Edit: Seems to stop registering hits after the first hit(?). needs more testing.

Here is the current best time, ran by Synophis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcYzbqZYosA

Rezard

2015-04-10 10:03:19 am

Meteor Swarm

I'm currently playing it blind (having very hard time cause i'm very bad at this game) i may get interested in at least learning it.
There's fews things i don't like in the game design (the grapple is a bit wrong imho..) anyway this is a great game.
I don't get the "it remove rng" on the speedrun part, does that mean ennemy will allway drop health ? or ennemy that can drop high health pool will allway drop it ?

CleverDan

2015-04-11 06:51:01 pm

"removing RNG" means that the secret levels (which are randomly generated, IIRC) no longer appear. I've done a few runs on speedrun mode (my best time is only ~1:45:00) and there are no secret levels at all, so i'm pretty sure that's all that's meant by no RNG. Enemy drops are still random, from what I can tell.

Deox

2015-04-12 05:14:28 am

PSN: BBQ-Joe

I love this game. Did not try speedrunning yet, will explore more first.

Synophis

Edit history:

Synophis: 2015-04-13 01:31:38 am

Synophis: 2015-04-12 12:30:45 pm

2015-04-12 12:30:22 pm

We need to decide on a centralized place for people to share strats as it's currently way too scattered. r/AxiomVerge has a speedrun thread where I shared some things but personally, I prefer SDA to reddit.

As for new strats, today I beat the game by skipping the scorpion boss (Gir-Tab), which also skips the grappling hook and I also skipped the address bomb

I've yet to figure out how much time that route actually saves if any. The reason I'm sceptical is that you need to backtrack quite a bit to be able to maintain the save point at the very beginning. Also, by skipping one power upgrade, some enemies become really hard to deal with, especially Ukhu.

Regarding the RNG, I'm fairly certain every enemy drop is pre-set.

Quote from Copilot:

Do any of y'all know if there's been anything said about when the game will release on PC?

The last I saw Tom tweet about it, it was May or early June. It shouldn't take too long.

Copilot

2015-04-12 05:55:51 pm

Ruling the cosmos!

Do any of y'all know if there's been anything said about when the game will release on PC?

Synophis

Edit history:

Synophis: 2015-04-13 06:03:34 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 06:00:58 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 06:00:42 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:58:59 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:58:54 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:58:37 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:58:35 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:58:34 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:58:11 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:57:00 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:56:30 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:54:28 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:53:25 am

Synophis: 2015-04-13 05:52:47 am

2015-04-13 05:52:20 am

So I timed the Gir-tab + Grapple skip and for me it was 2,5 minutes faster (I got sub 24 Vision with the grapple skip whereas my record had a 26:30). That was with very average play so I'd say it's probably at least +3 minutes faster.

The idea is that you go through the game without saving until you get the upgraded address disruptor. After getting it, you save warp to the very first save point and enter the hallucination sequence as you'd normally.

ZookieWookie

2015-04-13 01:03:34 pm

Very nice, could skip the long range upgrade for drone also, but will take damage so easily in parts, plus its only 10 seconds out of the way or so.

Synophis

Edit history:

Synophis: 2015-04-14 10:07:04 am

Synophis: 2015-04-14 10:04:30 am

Synophis: 2015-04-14 10:02:10 am

Synophis: 2015-04-14 10:00:37 am

Synophis: 2015-04-14 09:59:53 am

Synophis: 2015-04-14 09:59:34 am

2015-04-13 01:38:41 pm

Missing one power upgrade also affects the address disruptor, which makes Ukhu quick kill really inconsistent. If someone figures out a good setup, please share!

I wish we could skip the Sudra key somehow, that key room really breaks the flow of the run because you need to stop and kill multiple enemies. The lack of power upgrades also makes the enemies to take a lot of hits. One quite interesting thing I noticed is that damage dealt to bosses doesn't seem to be affected by your power upgrades. At least the Sentinel seemed to take the exact same amount of damage as before.

I just realized I haven't posted the address bomb skip here yet so here it is:

It's super easy to do and you shouldn't have any problems getting it to work.

I'd really like to see something like an all upgrades/bosses category because that route has an amazing flow. Also, I'd really like to include Gir-Tab fight in the run.

Zembar

2015-04-13 11:02:22 pm

Quote from Synophis:

Regarding the RNG, I'm fairly certain every enemy drop is pre-set.

Interesting, seems there is one room I always remember having the same drops. Could be huge to know what drops where for damage boosts and health refills if needed.

On the Address bomb skip, I know it's used in some places to help get through the enemies better. How much different is it without it? I had a possible idea about a slight route change depending on how different all that is and if it would be worth it to still pick up.

Basically after getting the 2nd lab coat, instead of going to Edin through Indi, go from Ukkin-Na and deafeat Uhku before you get the bomb, then go get the bomb and proceed as normal. Dunno if that would be faster or not, thinking on it my guy is kinda saying no though.

scottm

2015-04-14 12:31:59 pm

Nice find with the address bomb skip. I can't get on the game til later this week so I can't test anything myself, but is it possible to get address bombs from the helicoptery enemies with tails by glitching them, or will they only give you health points instead? - The bombs could make Ukhu a bit easier/safer.

A bit of a long shot - Is it possible to get the Drone Teleport without fighting Ukhu. I can't remember the room to the right/below where you get the teleport exactly, can you grapple along the top of this room, past the two block thick wall, then teleport through it/shoot your drone through it and proceed to get the Drone Teleport this way?

Synophis

Edit history:

Synophis: 2015-04-15 08:56:40 am

Synophis: 2015-04-15 06:50:00 am

Synophis: 2015-04-15 06:48:14 am

Synophis: 2015-04-15 06:47:59 am

Synophis: 2015-04-14 11:35:48 pm

Synophis: 2015-04-14 01:41:01 pm

Synophis: 2015-04-14 01:27:13 pm

Synophis: 2015-04-14 01:26:09 pm

2015-04-14 01:24:06 pm

Zembar, the lower route with the head transport is faster than the upper route. Also the head transport allows us to save right before entering Edin so we can skip quite a bit of backtracking by save warping after getting the drone teleport.

Skipping the address bomb makes up around 2 minutes so it's not worth it to get it just because we can do the key room with it faster. Regarding the key room, could there be some sort of setup you could do with sending the drone to dig up the key and not get destroyed by multiple enemies? At least in theory you could create a shield out of the blocks by drilling in a certain formation, but it may take too long for the drone to survive.

Quote from scottm:

Nice find with the address bomb skip. I can't get on the game til later this week so I can't test anything myself, but is it possible to get address bombs from the helicoptery enemies with tails by glitching them, or will they only give you health points instead? - The bombs could make Ukhu a bit easier/safer.

A bit of a long shot - Is it possible to get the Drone Teleport without fighting Ukhu. I can't remember the room to the right/below where you get the teleport exactly, can you grapple along the top of this room, past the two block thick wall, then teleport through it/shoot your drone through it and proceed to get the Drone Teleport this way?

They only give health if you haven't acquired the address bombs yet.

That's a really cool idea, though we need to then kill Gir-Tab to actually get the grapple. Skipping the Ukhu sequence doesn't really make up that much time, so it's likely to be slower than the grapple skip route. That still needs to be tested just because it's so cool of an idea!

I tried grappling on the top of the room to get the drone teleport, but a wall prevents it completely. The only way to get to the drone teleport is to either already have it or to defeat Ukhu.

The current route quick kill setup for Ukhu:

Key room done fast:

The first drone survives most of the time. The key is to bait out the first enemy shot with the drone and only after that start the drilling. it's also important to move as much to the right as possible so that enemies stay in the positions where the block's edge shields you from getting hit. If the drone ends up getting destroyed, it's easy to lure the enemy trio towards Trace, shoot the drone through the enemies and finish off the drilling.

Zembar, the lower route with the head transport is faster than the upper route. Also the head transport allows us to save right before entering Edin so we can skip quite a bit of backtracking by save warping after getting the drone teleport.

Skipping the address bomb makes up around 2 minutes so it's not worth it to get it just because we can do the key room with it faster. Regarding the key room, could there be some sort of setup you could do with sending the drone to dig up the key and not get destroyed by multiple enemies? At least in theory you could create a shield out of the blocks by drilling in a certain formation, but it may take too long for the drone to survive.

[quote="scottm"]Nice find with the address bomb skip. I can't get on the game til later this week so I can't test anything myself, but is it possible to get address bombs from the helicoptery enemies with tails by glitching them, or will they only give you health points instead? - The bombs could make Ukhu a bit easier/safer.

A bit of a long shot - Is it possible to get the Drone Teleport without fighting Ukhu. I can't remember the room to the right/below where you get the teleport exactly, can you grapple along the top of this room, past the two block thick wall, then teleport through it/shoot your drone through it and proceed to get the Drone Teleport this way?[/quote]
They only give health if you haven't acquired the address bombs yet.

That's a really cool idea, though we need to then kill Gir-Tab to actually get the grapple. Skipping the Ukhu sequence doesn't really make up that much time, so it's likely to be slower than the grapple skip route. That still needs to be tested just because it's so cool of an idea!

I tried grappling on the top of the room to get the drone teleport, but a wall prevents it completely. The only way to get to the drone teleport is to either already have it or to defeat Ukhu.

The current route quick kill setup for Ukhu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRA3a7INWdU

Key room done fast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL5JLK9rGCQ

The first drone survives most of the time. The key is to bait out the first enemy shot with the drone and only after that start the drilling. it's also important to move as much to the right as possible so that enemies stay in the positions where the block's edge shields you from getting hit. If the drone ends up getting destroyed, it's easy to lure the enemy trio towards Trace, shoot the drone through the enemies and finish off the drilling.

Zembar

2015-04-15 11:36:43 pm

So did a run today trying out the no grapple + no bomb route. Damn that's a lot tougher missing that power upgrade. I think for now I'm just gonna skip the bomb until I get a wee bit better, 25 deaths is no speedrun, lol

But on the Ukhu quick kill. Think it may still be possible. I got him in two rounds. And I think I could have gotten him in one with a little better positioning (although i think all 3 bombs hit, so dunno) My thinking is stand your ground to mostly hack the three bugs, letting them hit you, then turn around and finish the hack with them clumped (I didn't quite do that, but that's my though to get them better clumped) As far as controlling Ukhu's position, don't really have any good setups right myself, just kinda winged it.

(Not super familiar with these forums or how to embed like you did yet)

And you should try a 100% run if you want. I may look into that myself later, might be fun to try and route it. But first I need to get a sub 1 hour time, lol (Best is like 1:06 or something)

So did a run today trying out the no grapple + no bomb route.  Damn that's a lot tougher missing that power upgrade.  I think for now I'm just gonna skip the bomb until I get a wee bit better, 25 deaths is no speedrun, lol

But on the Ukhu quick kill.  Think it may still be possible.  I got him in two rounds.  And I think I could have gotten him in one with a little better positioning (although i think all 3 bombs hit, so dunno)  My thinking is stand your ground to mostly hack the three bugs, letting them hit you, then turn around and finish the hack with them clumped (I didn't quite do that, but that's my though to get them better clumped)  As far as controlling Ukhu's position, don't really have any good setups right myself, just kinda winged it.

https://youtu.be/2K8jdp9fS44  (Not super familiar with these forums or how to embed like you did yet)

And you should try a 100% run if you want.  I may look into that myself later, might be fun to try and route it.  But first I need to get a sub 1 hour time, lol (Best is like 1:06 or something)

Synophis

Edit history:

Synophis: 2015-04-20 01:44:08 pm

Synophis: 2015-04-20 01:41:31 pm

Synophis: 2015-04-19 04:55:21 am

Synophis: 2015-04-17 01:02:24 pm

Synophis: 2015-04-17 12:59:37 pm

Synophis: 2015-04-17 12:58:58 pm

2015-04-16 03:16:30 pm

The new route in action:

Features some new strategies. A couple of bad sections but overall a good run. 39 should be possible.
- - - -
Lol, I just finished a low% run (didn't pick up any health or power upgrades) and it was pure madness! Drone doesn't have any health and dies immediately after a hit. Also, I mentioned earlier that damage dealt to bosses isn't affected by power upgrades. That was completely wrong. Every boss battle became a massive endurance battle. Sentinel battle especially was just madness because every cycle took so long. I died almost 50 times in the process and finished in 2 and half hours Cheesy

- - - - -
Okay so Happ just tweeted that he will fix the final boss exploit. https://twitter.com/AxiomVerge/status/589519371627663360

Personally, I think this shouldn't be done, because the final boss design is so flawed. If there were a way for you to actually avoid all enemy bullets, this wouldn't be a problem, but fixing this really hampers the speedrun. The final battle will become very luck based and we probably need to get a lot more health upgrades.

Like that challenge run I did with getting no powerups, that wouldn't be possible without this exploit etc.
- - - - -
It appears the final boss's design will be changed or at least some sort of fix will be made. It remains to be seen whether this fix will be adequate for people to beat the boss without the need for specific amount of powerups. https://twitter.com/AxiomVerge/status/590224066511962112

In other news, I just got time of 40:20, but basically these times will mean nothing once the patch hits, so I'm just having fun with the game. Vod is on my twitch highlights if someone wants to watch it, but it's really not that impressive and there aren't any new strategies used. No damage Sentinel was pretty good though.

I did find another skip in regards to the Clone but I fail to see any use to it at the moment. Maybe if the new route will require more powerups or the address bomb, it will come in handy. I didn't try it yet with the trench coat but I'm quite sure it requires the red coat because the teleporting distances are so big.

Clone skip:

The new route in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TxHIknol34

Features some new strategies. A couple of bad sections but overall a good run. 39 should be possible.
- - - -
Lol, I just finished a low% run (didn't pick up any health or power upgrades) and it was pure madness! Drone doesn't have any health and dies immediately after a hit. Also, I mentioned earlier that damage dealt to bosses isn't affected by power upgrades. That was completely wrong. Every boss battle became a massive endurance battle. Sentinel battle especially was just madness because every cycle took so long. I died almost 50 times in the process and finished in 2 and half hours :D
- - - - -
Okay so Happ just tweeted that he will fix the final boss exploit. https://twitter.com/AxiomVerge/status/589519371627663360

Personally, I think this shouldn't be done, because the final boss design is so flawed. If there were a way for you to actually avoid all enemy bullets, this wouldn't be a problem, but fixing this really hampers the speedrun. The final battle will become very luck based and we probably need to get a lot more health upgrades.

Like that challenge run I did with getting no powerups, that wouldn't be possible without this exploit etc.
- - - - -
It appears the final boss's design will be changed or at least some sort of fix will be made. It remains to be seen whether this fix will be adequate for people to beat the boss without the need for specific amount of powerups. https://twitter.com/AxiomVerge/status/590224066511962112

In other news, I just got time of 40:20, but basically these times will mean nothing once the patch hits, so I'm just having fun with the game. Vod is on my twitch highlights if someone wants to watch it, but it's really not that impressive and there aren't any new strategies used. No damage Sentinel was pretty good though.

I did find another skip in regards to the Clone but I fail to see any use to it at the moment. Maybe if the new route will require more powerups or the address bomb, it will come in handy. I didn't try it yet with the trench coat but I'm quite sure it requires the red coat because the teleporting distances are so big.

Clone skip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RHA0rgdDYk

Zembar

2015-04-22 02:06:59 am

40:20, nice time. Also cool find with the skip. At the very least could be useful for 100% runs. (assuming the rules are 100% items and not bosses)

I'm curious too how the final boss will change. I did a run last week and couldn't beat him without the exploit (did a grapple-less run and had a lot of trouble getting up there, so tried to kill him without it. Wasn't working very well)

Need to get back to running myself, haven't had time. Still recovering from con weekend this past weekend. Been keeping me busy since last Wednesday.

CMatador

2015-04-22 07:47:46 am

Hey guys, I tried to craft out a route for a 100% run, here is the video for it: (there's a 2nd part with the last 7 mins, twitch just did that for some reason)

I'm not a speedrunner and make a ton of mistakes (also 2nd time running the route), but it would be cool to see what you guys can do with it. Clocked in at 1:48:05, I think someone with some actual skills can push it down to 1:40 or less even.

Synophis

Edit history:

Synophis: 2015-04-27 01:45:55 pm

Synophis: 2015-04-27 01:41:04 pm

Synophis: 2015-04-27 01:38:20 pm

Synophis: 2015-04-27 11:35:04 am

Synophis: 2015-04-27 09:47:04 am

Synophis: 2015-04-27 08:43:15 am

Synophis: 2015-04-27 05:07:12 am

Synophis: 2015-04-23 03:01:10 pm

2015-04-23 09:49:10 am

Quote from CMatador:

Hey guys, I tried to craft out a route for a 100% run here is the video for it...

A good run. I wonder if it's more efficient to just skip every item except the passcode tool until you get the red coat and then just fly through the areas and pick up everything.

Like first you run through the any% route + get passcode tool until E-Kur-Mah. Upon arriving to E-Kur, start to finally pick up items and clean up this area completely. Enter the grapple room from the other side and completely skip fighting Gir-Tab. Save warp close to the entrance of E-Kur, because the way to Gir-Tab is blocked. Leave E-Kur the way you came and after that do a systematic search of all the areas as was done on your video.

edit: I finally recorded my idea of the 100% route, highly influenced by the CMatador's route posted above. I ended up with a time of 1:34:07, but that was filled with mistakes like forgetting to pick up items, bad movement and a death. It should be fairly easy to get sub 1:30. There are still multiple uncertain places, which probably could be done a lot more efficiently in a different order, but at least that's something to work with.

edit2: I made another attempt at the 100% route and got a 1:28:15

That's still far from optimized, but showcases the route quite well.
- - - - - - - - - -

So, I finally got a run I was happy about:

There are multiple new room optimizations, particularly the laser bug room. I actually partially failed the Ukhu quick kill here and lost 10 seconds, which was the biggest time loss of the run. Other than that, only really minor mistakes. That health node at Uruku could be dropped out to save another 15 seconds.
- - - - - - - - - -

I found a new trick:

Basically, I'm just teleporting through the floor to the adjacent room below. The screen stays at the room I teleported at, but I can actually move and follow my movement in the mini map. The trick requires very specific circumstances and therefore I doubt there are a lot more places, where this can be done. Also, even this one requires the red coat so not useful at all.

[quote="CMatador"]Hey guys, I tried to craft out a route for a 100% run here is the video for it... [/quote]
A good run. I wonder if it's more efficient to just skip every item except the passcode tool until you get the red coat and then just fly through the areas and pick up everything.

Like first you run through the any% route + get passcode tool until E-Kur-Mah. Upon arriving to E-Kur, start to finally pick up items and clean up this area completely. Enter the grapple room from the other side and completely skip fighting Gir-Tab. Save warp close to the entrance of E-Kur, because the way to Gir-Tab is blocked. Leave E-Kur the way you came and after that do a systematic search of all the areas as was done on your video.

edit: I finally recorded my idea of the 100% route, highly influenced by the CMatador's route posted above. I ended up with a time of 1:34:07, but that was filled with mistakes like forgetting to pick up items, bad movement and a death. It should be fairly easy to get sub 1:30. There are still multiple uncertain places, which probably could be done a lot more efficiently in a different order, but at least that's something to work with.

edit2: I made another attempt at the 100% route and got a 1:28:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybw5Zse1jqs

That's still far from optimized, but showcases the route quite well.
- - - - - - - - - -

So, I finally got a run I was happy about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcYzbqZYosA

There are multiple new room optimizations, particularly the laser bug room. I actually partially failed the Ukhu quick kill here and lost 10 seconds, which was the biggest time loss of the run. Other than that, only really minor mistakes. That health node at Uruku could be dropped out to save another 15 seconds.
- - - - - - - - - -

I found a new trick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPlZ16OkT0o

Basically, I'm just teleporting through the floor to the adjacent room below. The screen stays at the room I teleported at, but I can actually move and follow my movement in the mini map. The trick requires very specific circumstances and therefore I doubt there are a lot more places, where this can be done. Also, even this one requires the red coat so not useful at all.

Synophis

Edit history:

Synophis: 2015-05-06 12:41:10 am

Synophis: 2015-05-06 12:40:31 am

Synophis: 2015-05-05 02:36:01 pm

Synophis: 2015-05-05 02:34:20 pm

Synophis: 2015-05-02 12:43:21 pm

Synophis: 2015-05-02 12:42:02 pm

2015-05-02 12:11:46 pm

I've been busy with finishing up my thesis so haven't had time to do any runs but I've still gathered some more useful information.

I played around with the hard mode and determined some specs:
- all enemies and bosses have about 1,5x more health
- all enemies and bosses do about 1,5x more damage (doesn't seem to be a fixed multiplier)
- health drops are more rare and the drops are smaller
- bosses move and shoot quicker

These changes affect the early game mostly. For example, you need at least 2 blocks of health to get behind Telal so this restricts the number of damage boost / running through enemies you can do. The late game is about the same, mistakes are just more costly, but with good execution, hard mode shouldn't be a problem (as long as the new final boss can be evaded consistently).

I also did some any% route testing and found a cool ~15 second time saver:

Doing that is fairly difficult. You need to keep up the rhythm with the drone teleport cooldown canceling and finally hit the upper platform so that you can dash or shoot the drone through it. You can also speed up the climb by doing an upwards dash after a teleport but the timing is really hard to pull off.

edit: I recorded my first real attempt at a hard run: http://www.twitch.tv/synophis/v/4724319

That's a sloppy run (particularly losing 40 seconds in the room before Sentinel), but you get the idea of how hard differs from normal. I tried to explain some things during the run, but most of it was drowned out by the in-game audio, over which I have no control over until the next patch. The main points were that certain enemies drop health only when you're really low on health and the fact that once you survive the early game, it becomes a lot easier.

I've been busy with finishing up my thesis so haven't had time to do any runs but I've still gathered some more useful information.

I played around with the hard mode and determined some specs:
- all enemies and bosses have about 1,5x more health
- all enemies and bosses do about 1,5x more damage (doesn't seem to be a fixed multiplier)
- health drops are more rare and the drops are smaller
- bosses move and shoot quicker

These changes affect the early game mostly. For example, you need at least 2 blocks of health to get behind Telal so this restricts the number of damage boost / running through enemies you can do. The late game is about the same, mistakes are just more costly, but with good execution, hard mode shouldn't be a problem (as long as the new final boss can be evaded consistently).

I also did some any% route testing and found a cool ~15 second time saver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dF3r8Ug5XI

Doing that is fairly difficult. You need to keep up the rhythm with the drone teleport cooldown canceling and finally hit the upper platform so that you can dash or shoot the drone through it. You can also speed up the climb by doing an upwards dash after a teleport but the timing is really hard to pull off.

edit: I recorded my first real attempt at a hard run: http://www.twitch.tv/synophis/v/4724319

That's a sloppy run (particularly losing 40 seconds in the room before Sentinel), but you get the idea of how hard differs from normal. I tried to explain some things during the run, but most of it was drowned out by the in-game audio, over which I have no control over until the next patch. The main points were that certain enemies drop health only when you're really low on health and the fact that once you survive the early game, it becomes a lot easier.

Heidrage

Edit history:

Heidrage: 2015-05-04 09:25:54 am

Heidrage: 2015-05-04 09:25:48 am

Heidrage: 2015-05-04 09:25:20 am

2015-05-04 08:10:42 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

Sorry for using the forum for this but I need the space.

To the people reading this from twitter:

The game should not be changed at all. The final boss can be defeated consistently without the ledge. I will stream later tonight and prove it. The video of Synophis is an exaggerated example of a player trying to beat the boss with brute force rather than a game plan. Every boss has a strat that beats them in a much easier way. This is no different for the final boss.

The argument that it will force the speedrunning community to adapt and pick up more items... Do you understand what you are saying? Every game is about adapting to the issues at hand and finding the best way to overcome it. Look at Super Metroid, 14% items min item collection to beat the game, and that route is balls hard. That just means the same thing here, we will adapt and find the best low% route. Im sure others can think of many many examples of needed a minimum number of items/weapons to complete a game.

This game is a masterpiece, I do not want to see it ruined by BS complaining. Mr. Happ, please dont change a thing, the game is perfect as is. Let the community figure out the solution. As for the ledge, that is at your discretion.

Sorry for using the forum for this but I need the space.

[b]To the people reading this from twitter:[/b] 
[hidden]The game should not be changed at all. The final boss can be defeated consistently without the ledge. I will stream later tonight and prove it. The video of Synophis is an exaggerated example of a player trying to beat the boss with brute force rather than a game plan. Every boss has a strat that beats them in a much easier way. This is no different for the final boss.

The argument that it will force the speedrunning community to [b]adapt[/b] and pick up more items... Do you understand what you are saying? Every game is about adapting to the issues at hand and finding the best way to overcome it. Look at Super Metroid, 14% items min item collection to beat the game, and that route is balls hard. That just means the same thing here, we will adapt and find the best low% route. Im sure others can think of many many examples of needed a minimum number of items/weapons to complete a game.

This game is a masterpiece, I do not want to see it ruined by BS complaining. Mr. Happ, please dont change a thing, the game is perfect as is. Let the community figure out the solution. As for the ledge, that is at your discretion.
[img]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c1/c2/4c/c1c24cb50621f3ce3a95a549fcd65149.jpg[/img]
[/hidden]

Synophis

Edit history:

Synophis: 2015-05-04 01:58:55 pm

Synophis: 2015-05-04 01:55:02 pm

Synophis: 2015-05-04 01:48:46 pm

2015-05-04 01:48:22 pm

Quote from Heidrage:

Sorry for using the forum for this but I need the space.

To the people reading this from twitter:

The game should not be changed at all. The final boss can be defeated consistently without the ledge. I will stream later tonight and prove it. The video of Synophis is an exaggerated example of a player trying to beat the boss with brute force rather than a game plan. Every boss has a strat that beats them in a much easier way. This is no different for the final boss.

The argument that it will force the speedrunning community to adapt and pick up more items... Do you understand what you are saying? Every game is about adapting to the issues at hand and finding the best way to overcome it. Look at Super Metroid, 14% items min item collection to beat the game, and that route is balls hard. That just means the same thing here, we will adapt and find the best low% route. Im sure others can think of many many examples of needed a minimum number of items/weapons to complete a game.

This game is a masterpiece, I do not want to see it ruined by BS complaining. Mr. Happ, please dont change a thing, the game is perfect as is. Let the community figure out the solution. As for the ledge, that is at your discretion.

I'm interested in seeing you beating the final boss without the ledge. Before I found the glitch I used to crouch in the corner and let the bots fly upwards to avoid getting rekt.

My reasoning behind wanting the final boss design to be changed, is that currently the fight is just a massive damage race with no skill involved. If we were forced to pick up a lot more upgrades just because of one boss, I don't think that's good game design at all. Moreover, the need to pick up a lot more upgrades means that the versatility of runs suffers: the game can only be played in a certain way. That Super Metroid example is not really a good one, as that route can be executed with skill rather than the ability to sponge bullets. I challenge you to mention one game where one boss completely dictates how you must play the game.

Sure the game is a masterpiece and I do understand what you're getting at with adapting to challenges, but the current final boss is just really poorly designed. I'm really excited for the change as Tom has said that the enemy AI has changed completely in the upcoming patch.

[quote="Heidrage"]Sorry for using the forum for this but I need the space.

[b]To the people reading this from twitter:[/b] 
[hidden]The game should not be changed at all. The final boss can be defeated consistently without the ledge. I will stream later tonight and prove it. The video of Synophis is an exaggerated example of a player trying to beat the boss with brute force rather than a game plan. Every boss has a strat that beats them in a much easier way. This is no different for the final boss.

The argument that it will force the speedrunning community to [b]adapt[/b] and pick up more items... Do you understand what you are saying? Every game is about adapting to the issues at hand and finding the best way to overcome it. Look at Super Metroid, 14% items min item collection to beat the game, and that route is balls hard. That just means the same thing here, we will adapt and find the best low% route. Im sure others can think of many many examples of needed a minimum number of items/weapons to complete a game.

This game is a masterpiece, I do not want to see it ruined by BS complaining. Mr. Happ, please dont change a thing, the game is perfect as is. Let the community figure out the solution. As for the ledge, that is at your discretion.
[img]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c1/c2/4c/c1c24cb50621f3ce3a95a549fcd65149.jpg[/img]
[/hidden][/quote]
I'm interested in seeing you beating the final boss without the ledge. Before I found the glitch I used to crouch in the corner and let the bots fly upwards to avoid getting rekt.

My reasoning behind wanting the final boss design to be changed, is that currently the fight is just a massive damage race with no skill involved. If we were forced to pick up a lot more upgrades just because of one boss, I don't think that's good game design at all. Moreover, the need to pick up a lot more upgrades means that the versatility of runs suffers: the game can only be played in a certain way. That Super Metroid example is not really a good one, as that route can be executed with skill rather than the ability to sponge bullets. I challenge you to mention one game where one boss completely dictates how you must play the game.

Sure the game is a masterpiece and I do understand what you're getting at with adapting to challenges, but the current final boss is just really poorly designed. I'm really excited for the change as Tom has said that the enemy AI has changed completely in the upcoming patch.

Heidrage

Edit history:

Heidrage: 2015-05-05 07:16:12 am

Heidrage: 2015-05-04 03:37:08 pm

Heidrage: 2015-05-04 03:34:07 pm

Heidrage: 2015-05-04 03:07:29 pm

2015-05-04 03:06:27 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Stand in the bottom left corner (does not work in right corner) and lock in place, and use Axiom to hit the top node. When the spawns get to you, switch to Kilver. While locked, tap up and keep shooting. Kilver will hit twice (normal to the side and up) and the dash will also cause damage. Try not to start shooting until all 3 are near/on top of you, it is very important that you control the spawns. They should all die near the same time. Once all dead, collect the health if you are not near full (should auto collect since they die on top of you) put yourself back in the corner if you were knocked out then switch to the Axiom and attack the node. Repeat till dead.

I died a few times trying out different weapons. I have yet to collect all the weapons but I do know this strat works easily 95% of the time. I will start my stream about 8pm EST tonight and demonstrate. The file I have currently at the end has a lot of the health upgrades, but my health hardly goes past 50% being it seems at least one of the 3 spawns drops health.

Side note since I am thinking about it now, can the dash CD be reset with another ability somehow? If so then the I frames would protect us in the fight and movement will be sped up for the run itself.

Games that have demands
-SM Still requires 3 energy tanks to take the rainbow beam from Mother Brain, all the skill in teh game can get you by without picking up any, you you have to have enough for MB Also need to have minimum either Ice Beam/Speedbooster and charge shot/enough ammo to kill all bosses.
-Summoner 2, a 3.5 hour RPG I am currently routing has hit many walls where I had to change things 20-30 min into the run to set up the end of the game. Currently stuck on the second to last boss. Trying to figure out what needs to be done to make it possible. I cant tell you how many skill tree paths I have tries so far.
-Nearly all zelda games demand specific items to finish.
-I Will add more as I think of them

Edit: Here is my strat and plea to Mr. Happ

Stand in the bottom left corner (does not work in right corner) and lock in place, and use Axiom to hit the top node. When the spawns get to you, switch to Kilver. While locked, tap up and keep shooting. Kilver will hit twice (normal to the side and up) and the dash will also cause damage. Try not to start shooting until all 3 are near/on top of you, it is very important that you control the spawns. They should all die near the same time. Once all dead, collect the health if you are not near full (should auto collect since they die on top of you) put yourself back in the corner if you were knocked out then switch to the Axiom and attack the node. Repeat till dead.

I died a few times trying out different weapons. I have yet to collect all the weapons but I do know this strat works easily 95% of the time. I will start [url=https://twitch.tv/heidrage]my stream[/url] about 8pm EST tonight and demonstrate. The file I have currently at the end has a lot of the health upgrades, but my health hardly goes past 50% being it seems at least one of the 3 spawns drops health.

Side note since I am thinking about it now, can the dash CD be reset with another ability somehow? If so then the I frames would protect us in the fight and movement will be sped up for the run itself.

[b]Games that have demands[/b] 
-SM Still requires 3 energy tanks to take the rainbow beam from Mother Brain, all the skill in teh game can get you by without picking up any, you you have to have enough for MB Also need to have minimum either Ice Beam/Speedbooster and charge shot/enough ammo to kill all bosses. 
-Summoner 2, a 3.5 hour RPG I am currently routing has hit many walls where I had to change things 20-30 min into the run to set up the end of the game. Currently stuck on the second to last boss. Trying to figure out what needs to be done to make it possible. I cant tell you how many skill tree paths I have tries so far.
-Nearly all zelda games demand specific items to finish.
-I Will add more as I think of them

Edit: Here is my strat and plea to Mr. Happ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FeouQPK-ns

Synophis

Edit history:

Synophis: 2015-05-05 01:24:34 pm

Synophis: 2015-05-05 11:17:49 am

Synophis: 2015-05-05 10:29:35 am

Synophis: 2015-05-05 08:21:03 am

Synophis: 2015-05-05 08:17:32 am

Synophis: 2015-05-05 08:17:24 am

Synophis: 2015-05-05 08:16:12 am

2015-05-05 08:15:23 am

Quote from Heidrage:

Stand in the bottom left corner (does not work in right corner) and lock in place, and use Axiom to hit the top node. When the spawns get to you, switch to Kilver. While locked...

Yeah, that was the strategy I used when I hadn't found the glitch. The reason you're surviving, is that you have a lot of upgrades, which increase your damage. If you tried to actually beat the boss with very limited resources, you wouldn't succeed. And even if you did, it would be due to getting lucky health drops. Overall, doing the fight that way is really boring and requires very little skill.

Let me explain, why none of the examples you gave are relevant. In the current any% route, we can go through the game up until the final boss without taking any or very little damage. Then all of a sudden, when we enter the final fight, we need a ton of upgrades to be able to beat the game. The gap in required resources between the 99% and 1% of the game is way too big for it to be good game design. All of the examples you mentioned, you also collect the items for the sake of gradually overcoming the challenges throughout the game, not just the last 1%.

So, if we were required to pick up a lot of upgrades, we would be massively overpowered throughout the 99% of the game. The route would end up being really boring and easy. Now with the boss design change, we can maybe actually decrease the health upgrades even further, making the run really interesting to both run and view.

We really should be thankful, that we have as amazing developer as Tom listening to user feedback and adjusting accordingly. This is probably the first time I've seen the whole boss design change completely on the basis of user feedback, at least in a 2D platformer.

edit: I actually took the time to watch your whole video and first of all, thanks for all the kind words.

The problem never was that the boss was too difficult. The point I made in twitter, was that you can't beat the boss IF you don't get a certain required amount of upgrades. I never said that the boss was completely impossible. The first few times, I beat the game, I had no idea about the glitch. Also, I actually hadn't figured out the "jackhammer" effect so props for that. I'm actually currently trying out the fight with my the current any% route's upgrades, but I'm sceptical that it will work.

edit2: I'm really hoping the community will start growing, once the game is released on the PC, but before resuming this in private, I just want say that I did try to beat the final boss with your method and came really close, once:

If I were to pick up one more health upgrade, I could probably beat the boss every time. However, my points above still hold true: it's not a particularly interesting way to finish off the run, when we might get a real skill based fight, instead of mostly luck based damage race and also the last 1% of the game requires way too much more upgrades than the rest 99%.

[quote="Heidrage"]Stand in the bottom left corner (does not work in right corner) and lock in place, and use Axiom to hit the top node. When the spawns get to you, switch to Kilver. While locked...[/quote]
Yeah, that was the strategy I used when I hadn't found the glitch. The reason you're surviving, is that you have a lot of upgrades, which increase your damage. If you tried to actually beat the boss with very limited resources, you wouldn't succeed. And even if you did, it would be due to getting lucky health drops. Overall, doing the fight that way is really boring and requires very little skill.

Let me explain, why none of the examples you gave are relevant. In the current any% route, we can go through the game up until the final boss without taking any or very little damage. Then all of a sudden, when we enter the final fight, we need a ton of upgrades to be able to beat the game. The gap in required resources between the 99% and 1% of the game is way too big for it to be good game design. All of the examples you mentioned, you also collect the items for the sake of gradually overcoming the challenges throughout the game, not just the last 1%.

So, if we were required to pick up a lot of upgrades, we would be massively overpowered throughout the 99% of the game. The route would end up being really boring and easy. Now with the boss design change, we can maybe actually decrease the health upgrades even further, making the run really interesting to both run and view.

We really should be thankful, that we have as amazing developer as Tom listening to user feedback and adjusting accordingly. This is probably the first time I've seen the whole boss design change completely on the basis of user feedback, at least in a 2D platformer.

edit: I actually took the time to watch your whole video and first of all, thanks for all the kind words.

The problem never was that the boss was too difficult. The point I made in twitter, was that you can't beat the boss IF you don't get a certain required amount of upgrades. I never said that the boss was completely impossible. The first few times, I beat the game, I had no idea about the glitch. Also, I actually hadn't figured out the "jackhammer" effect so props for that. I'm actually currently trying out the fight with my the current any% route's upgrades, but I'm sceptical that it will work.

edit2: I'm really hoping the community will start growing, once the game is released on the PC, but before resuming this in private, I just want say that I did try to beat the final boss with your method and came really close, once: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXXZO485tZg

If I were to pick up one more health upgrade, I could probably beat the boss every time. However, my points above still hold true: it's not a particularly interesting way to finish off the run, when we might get a real skill based fight, instead of mostly luck based damage race and also the last 1% of the game requires way too much more upgrades than the rest 99%.

Heidrage

Edit history:

Heidrage: 2015-05-05 01:14:06 pm

Heidrage: 2015-05-05 10:32:18 am

2015-05-05 10:23:34 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

We should resume this chat in pm. I dont want to have this thread derailed too far from running the game for a debate.

Edit: I am going to follow your route tonight and try it myself as well. Also want to play the route anyway just to see how it feels.

Edit2: First attempt you did not stay in the corner and they got away from you. You are waiting for them to stack on you is good. The second attempt should not have waited as you were low on health, and looked for a health drop. LOL that 3rd attempt trolling spawn. Really, you killed the boss and the last spawn got you. That is a heart breaker.

That last attempt was interesting. It seems the projectiles take priority over touching an enemy and deals way more damage. I wonder if you were not in the corner enough and cause it to go off to the side a bit. I will do my testing tonight and see if I get the same win/loss ratio. You went 1/4. That 3rd attempt was bs.

The community will grow in time. Not many ppl have a ps4 right now so the steam release will make it blow up as I dont see too many ppl passing up this game.

We should resume this chat in pm. I dont want to have this thread derailed too far from running the game for a debate.

Edit: I am going to follow your route tonight and try it myself as well. Also want to play the route anyway just to see how it feels.

Edit2: First attempt you did not stay in the corner and they got away from you. You are waiting for them to stack on you is good. The second attempt should not have waited as you were low on health, and looked for a health drop. LOL that 3rd attempt trolling spawn. Really, you killed the boss and the last spawn got you. That is a heart breaker.

That last attempt was interesting. It seems the projectiles take priority over touching an enemy and deals way more damage. I wonder if you were not in the corner enough and cause it to go off to the side a bit. I will do my testing tonight and see if I get the same win/loss ratio. You went 1/4. That 3rd attempt was bs.

The community will grow in time. Not many ppl have a ps4 right now so the steam release will make it blow up as I dont see too many ppl passing up this game.

Heidrage

2015-05-07 08:45:57 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

First off I need to applaud Synophis for the quality of this run. Took me about 2 hours but I did follow the route. This is harder than it looks really and very punishing. Kinda like X2 Low%, cant get hit from much of anything or you die really fast. The issue here if you are forced to take damage, not a set amount like Mother Brains rainbow beam but rather just tanking hits.

There is a life upgrade on the way near the end of the game but I really doubt it would help much. When at 4/4 the final boss spawns die enough but do not drop health as often as needed to survive the 3rd round. The first is easy enough. The second have a tendency to push you out the corner for some reason and causes health management issues. The third round just hits too hard and does not give enough health for how fast they spawn. Just not enough time to deal damage to the core.

I tried a few different strats but I could not find anything that could beat the boss when at 4/4 without the ledge trick yet. It took me a bit but I do see why a change needs to happen. Sorry I am such a stubborn person.

Would be nice to leave the ledge there, just make it harder to get on it or something. That would give players the choice of cheese (kinda tricky to get up there without the grapple hook) or legit fight.

First off I need to applaud Synophis for the quality of this run. Took me about 2 hours but I did follow the route. This is harder than it looks really and very punishing. Kinda like X2 Low%, cant get hit from much of anything or you die really fast. The issue here if you are forced to take damage, not a set amount like Mother Brains rainbow beam but rather just tanking hits.

There is a life upgrade on the way near the end of the game but I really doubt it would help much. When at 4/4 the final boss spawns die enough but do not drop health as often as needed to survive the 3rd round. The first is easy enough. The second have a tendency to push you out the corner for some reason and causes health management issues. The third round just hits too hard and does not give enough health for how fast they spawn. Just not enough time to deal damage to the core.

I tried a few different strats but I could not find anything that could beat the boss when at 4/4 without the ledge trick yet. It took me a bit but I do see why a change needs to happen. Sorry I am such a stubborn person.

Would be nice to leave the ledge there, just make it harder to get on it or something. That would give players the choice of cheese (kinda tricky to get up there without the grapple hook) or legit fight.

Heidrage

Edit history:

Heidrage: 2015-05-11 07:31:39 am

2015-05-11 07:16:48 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

Well I am having fun with this game. I am working on any% no save quit/death abuse. I found a few small improvements to the any% route but most of the stuff in my run is rather basic. This route requires the grapple hook and 1 extra boss. I end up getting one more health and weapon upgrade because they are on the way and cost hardly any time.

The only real thing that could be implemented in other runs would be the second climb in Ukkin.

I also found a really reliable/safe/fast way to fight sentinel

the attached picture is my current best time in any% no save quit/death abuse

Attachment:

AV.png