Age Of Empires 2 Speed Run

2010-08-09 03:36:40 pm

we have lift off

For WW 5 and 7 have you still done them? I know they are separate categories but you need a complete set of levels on the same difficulty for submission.

Gombill

2010-08-09 04:57:52 pm

I have done WW5 and 7, but they are not finalized yet.

My times on them:

WW5 5:44 > 5:14 (suga)
WW7 5:33 > 4:46 (suga)

The difficulty makes a significant difference on WW5, enough that suga's 5:14 should be impossible while playing on hard. For the reason why, see the discussion between myself and ExplodingCabbage a few pages ago. I'm within about 4 seconds of perfect using the strategy I'm currently using, but there may be a faster one.

For WW7 it will be significantly harder, but I think doable to get very near to suga's time. I have not given it a serious effort yet.

Liderharen

2010-08-09 05:27:54 pm

i think its kinda difficult to get an overview what the state of this run is in. But I just watched your WW videos and it looks very nice!

Gombill

Edit history:

Gombill: 2010-08-09 11:25:28 pm

2010-08-09 11:13:00 pm

I think it would be nice to have control over the first post so I can just have a continuously updated table there. Who should I talk to about that?

Also, I don't know if anyone has noticed that some of my videos have game music, some don't. I thought it would be ideal to have game music, but on longer levels it becomes a problem. I don't know if it's a game issue or a CD issue, but my music freaks out at about 8 real minutes in and does lots of skipping and weird stuff, and it often slows down the game too, so for longer runs the game music has been a definite no. I can probably still have game music for the shorter ones. Will this be a problem in terms of submission?

TheVoid

Edit history:

TheVoid: 2010-08-10 12:10:11 pm

2010-08-09 11:19:17 pm

Quote from Gombill:

I think it would be nice to have control over the first post so I can just have a continuously updated table there. Who should I talk to about that?

Ask mikwuyma about that.

gia

2010-08-10 11:55:57 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from Gombill:

I think it would be nice to have control over the first post so I can just have a continuously updated table there. Who should I talk to about that?

Also, I don't know if anyone has noticed that some of my videos have game music, some don't. I thought it would be ideal to have game music, but on longer levels it becomes a problem. I don't know if it's a game issue or a CD issue, but my music freaks out at about 8 real minutes in and does lots of skipping and weird stuff, and it often slows down the game too, so for longer runs the game music has been a definite no. I can probably still have game music for the shorter ones. Will this be a problem in terms of submission?

You have the cd inserted right? you can try to get/extract an ISO (that includes the music) that way there wont be hiccups due to the file being loaded from the cd.

Gombill

2010-08-10 02:50:12 pm

I guess I just can't stay away from speedrunning...

I finally made it through Saladin 6, the mission with building a wonder and defending for 300 years (25 game minutes). I kind of got my butt handed to me this time and it looks like I was really sucking, but the only thing that matters is that the wonder is still standing after 300 years (if but barely). Most of the reason for this is that the enemy doesn't usually destroy any wall pieces in the northeast so quickly, so I had to defend two points instead of one. Previously my best attempt made it to 28 wonder years left.

Since the 300 defense years is a fixed time, the only improvement would be getting the wonder up faster. It completed at 9:03 this time, and I've gotten it up as early as 8:30 before by ignoring my army and playing on normal speed.

Total time was 34:03.

Attachment:

SAL6_3403_LQ.mp4

ridd3r.

2010-08-10 03:29:02 pm

we have lift off

That was a fun watch. It looks like you could maybe sacrifice the army a bit more early on to get the wonder built a bit quicker as they only really challenge the wonder at the end. In fact, it was only in like the last 10s that they started hitting the wonder, until then you were doing good.

Liderharen

2010-08-10 05:08:03 pm

I agree with ridd3r. You should really try and get the wonder up as fast as it is possible and then try to beat the level from there. Maybe the level cant be beaten like that, but you really should give it a try Wink

bmn

2010-08-11 01:44:20 pm

Quote from gia:

Quote from Gombill:

I think it would be nice to have control over the first post so I can just have a continuously updated table there. Who should I talk to about that?

Also, I don't know if anyone has noticed that some of my videos have game music, some don't. I thought it would be ideal to have game music, but on longer levels it becomes a problem. I don't know if it's a game issue or a CD issue, but my music freaks out at about 8 real minutes in and does lots of skipping and weird stuff, and it often slows down the game too, so for longer runs the game music has been a definite no. I can probably still have game music for the shorter ones. Will this be a problem in terms of submission?

You have the cd inserted right? you can try to get/extract an ISO (that includes the music) that way there wont be hiccups due to the file being loaded from the cd.

The audio is IIRC a single CDDA track, which means an ISO wouldn't include it (as ISO only supports a single track, in this case the data track). A mounted file would have to be in another format such as bin/cue/wav, mds/mdf etc.

Alternatively, you could copy the disc and see if the copy performs better.

But, yeah, the audio going pear-shaped would be normal. A full installation of AOE2 streams practically nothing from the disc except the audio, and regardless CDDA is one of the first things to go typically on a disc.

[quote="gia"]
[quote="Gombill"]
I think it would be nice to have control over the first post so I can just have a continuously updated table there.  Who should I talk to about that?

Also, I don't know if anyone has noticed that some of my videos have game music, some don't.  I thought it would be ideal to have game music, but on longer levels it becomes a problem.  I don't know if it's a game issue or a CD issue, but my music freaks out at about 8 real minutes in and does lots of skipping and weird stuff, and it often slows down the game too, so for longer runs the game music has been a definite no.  I can probably still have game music for the shorter ones.  Will this be a problem in terms of submission?
[/quote]

You have the cd inserted right? you can try to get/extract an ISO (that includes the music) that way there wont be hiccups due to the file being loaded from the cd.
[/quote]

The audio is IIRC a single CDDA track, which means an ISO wouldn't include it (as ISO only supports a single track, in this case the data track). A mounted file would have to be in another format such as bin/cue/wav, mds/mdf etc.

Alternatively, you could copy the disc and see if the copy performs better.

But, yeah, the audio going pear-shaped would be normal. A full installation of AOE2 streams practically nothing from the disc [i]except[/i] the audio, and regardless CDDA is one of the first things to go typically on a disc.

Gombill

Edit history:

Gombill: 2010-08-14 01:01:53 pm

Gombill: 2010-08-14 12:43:14 pm

2010-08-11 09:38:25 pm

I agree on Saladin 6 I should try to build the wonder as soon as possible in future attempts (Now that I have a completed attempt, some weight is off of me). It would be the best case scenario to build the wonder as close as possible to your starting bunch of 6 villagers and the town center to cut on walking distance, but this would make the wonder extremely difficult to defend with less distance between it and the wall.

If anyone has other suggestions, let me know. I'm still experimenting with building more walls further out to funnel enemy troops into one corridor, but my efforts in that direction so far have failed (the enemy has destroyed the walls). The thing that finally helped me to break through with a successful run was realizing that once it gets to about 80 or less wonder years, all that really matters is destroying siege equipment. I also severely underestimated the destructive force of those scorpions - if I see those again, I'll just stay away. Another idea I'm toying with is upgrading the mamelukes with +2 damage to make them more effective.

Also, I've updated the table near the top of page 5 (on 25 posts per page) with the newest information (until I can get the first post for that purpose).

Probably no new runs for about 2 weeks, but we'll see what happens.

EDIT: On Saladin 6 I've determined that the fastest possible time to get the wonder up in is around 7:45, over a minute faster than the run I've put on here. However, this is with building the wonder right next to my TC, and from there it can be hit by trebuchets from outside the wall, so it would be extremely difficult to defend it there. Once I have some time I'll give it a bunch of attempts to see if it's even reasonable to try this.

I agree on Saladin 6 I should try to build the wonder as soon as possible in future attempts (Now that I have a completed attempt, some weight is off of me).  It would be the best case scenario to build the wonder as close as possible to your starting bunch of 6 villagers and the town center to cut on walking distance, but this would make the wonder extremely difficult to defend with less distance between it and the wall.

If anyone has other suggestions, let me know.  I'm still experimenting with building more walls further out to funnel enemy troops into one corridor, but my efforts in that direction so far have failed (the enemy has destroyed the walls).  The thing that finally helped me to break through with a successful run was realizing that once it gets to about 80 or less wonder years, all that really matters is destroying siege equipment.  I also severely underestimated the destructive force of those scorpions - if I see those again, I'll just stay away.  Another idea I'm toying with is upgrading the mamelukes with +2 damage to make them more effective.

Also, I've updated the table near the top of page 5 (on 25 posts per page) with the newest information (until I can get the first post for that purpose).

Probably no new runs for about 2 weeks, but we'll see what happens.

EDIT:  On Saladin 6 I've determined that the fastest possible time to get the wonder up in is around 7:45, over a minute faster than the run I've put on here.  However, this is with building the wonder right next to my TC, and from there it can be hit by trebuchets from outside the wall, so it would be extremely difficult to defend it there.  Once I have some time I'll give it a bunch of attempts to see if it's even reasonable to try this.

Gombill

Edit history:

Gombill: 2010-10-08 12:19:21 am

2010-08-14 10:28:46 pm

I did a little bit of running today in my spare time, preparing JOA 3. It didn't turn out to be as hard as I originally thought it would be. I wouldn't have guessed before that the hardest and most crucial part of the run would be making sure none of my sheep get stolen!

The red british, as I said before, can be taken out within 10 minutes using the tower strategy. I found a way to get it to work about 90% of the time. La Hire and Joan destroy one castle, but the other two need rams, so from that point the mission comes down to getting to the castle age as quickly as possible. The other two enemies on the map do not need to be worried about at all, which simplifies micro a lot.

I've posted a video of my first completed run, JOA3 in 26:54 (beating my goal by 3 minutes already). I already have the following improvements planned for my next run at it, but if you think of anything else let me know.

- Send 3 villagers to my town instead of 2. This will help with getting everything built quicker, maybe even save over minute on this alone.
- Kill off my own boats and pikemen (after everyone's across) so I only have to build 4 houses instead of 5. This makes a big difference because the lone tower-building villager can start chopping right away instead of having to wait to gather 30 wood first.
- Build the TC closer to the trees!
- Use some hotkeys early to save on micro
- Build a 5th ram and send it to the northmost castle (and don't send my villagers on a suicide mission)

My next goal for this one is 24:00, which I think is doable with all the improvements above.

EDIT: JOA3 Video removed.

I did a little bit of running today in my spare time, preparing JOA 3.  It didn't turn out to be as hard as I originally thought it would be.  I wouldn't have guessed before that the hardest and most crucial part of the run would be making sure none of my sheep get stolen!

The red british, as I said before, can be taken out within 10 minutes using the tower strategy.  I found a way to get it to work about 90% of the time.  La Hire and Joan destroy one castle, but the other two need rams, so from that point the mission comes down to getting to the castle age as quickly as possible.  The other two enemies on the map do not need to be worried about at all, which simplifies micro a lot.

I've posted a video of my first completed run, JOA3 in 26:54 (beating my goal by 3 minutes already).  I already have the following improvements planned for my next run at it, but if you think of anything else let me know.

- Send 3 villagers to my town instead of 2.  This will help with getting everything built quicker, maybe even save over minute on this alone.
 - Kill off my own boats and pikemen (after everyone's across) so I only have to build 4 houses instead of 5.  This makes a big difference because the lone tower-building villager can start chopping right away instead of having to wait to gather 30 wood first.
 - Build the TC closer to the trees!
 - Use some hotkeys early to save on micro
 - Build a 5th ram and send it to the northmost castle (and don't send my villagers on a suicide mission)

My next goal for this one is 24:00, which I think is doable with all the improvements above.

EDIT:  JOA3 Video removed.

Gombill

Edit history:

Gombill: 2011-12-06 06:41:20 pm

2010-08-15 11:21:53 pm

With all the improvements above plus a few extra tweaks, I've streamlined JOA3 down to 21:19 < 26:54!

The video is posted here. It only has one substantial error that I can think of, and that is that I forgot to train a 5th ram to send to whichever castle was going down slower (which was the southern one in this run). This probably cost me 3-5 seconds tops. Everything else is very good. I think I can maybe go to castle 10-15 seconds sooner, but it wouldn't matter as I wouldn't have enough wood for the rams earlier anyways. Fortunately for the purpose of running this level, about 90% of the restarts come in the first 20 seconds from units refusing to board the transports, instead of deep in the run.

I'm leaving the old run attached for a while in case anyone is curious to see the before/after.

And also, I now have the first post and am keeping an updated run table there.

EDIT: JOA3 Video Obsoleted.

Gombill

2010-08-22 02:05:21 am

I returned briefly to Genghis Khan 1 (which needed some serious work) to try to get it submittable.

The result is 9:09 < 11:30, over 2 minutes of improvement. I am pretty happy with this run so I will put it up here now.

There's only one significant improvement I can think of, and that would be to lure the monks I end up gaining control of closer to the relic using one of my injured units, so I gain control of them with less distance to run. For this to mean anything I would have to destroy the monastery faster too, and this would be difficult to save any more than 10 or so seconds on.

I haven't decided what the next level to attack is, maybe Barbarossa 1 to finally get a completed run for that.

Attachment:

GK1_909.mp4

ExplodingCabbage

2010-08-22 03:02:28 am

Are you going to ask Mike to time this in real time or with the in-game timer? If the latter, one trick that just occurred to me, and which appears to work (at least when I tested on WW1), and which you haven't used, is going to a menu during dialogue to pause the game and let the dialogue occur with the timer paused. This should shave some seconds of the end of GK1, for instance.

ThomasDollar

Edit history:

ThomasDollar: 2010-08-22 07:46:56 am

2010-08-22 07:45:50 am

Found a nice trick for the last mission of Saladin where you have to build the wonder and defend it. You can build the wonder on a tiny island to the left of the screen in the ocean, theres only one tree and one gold piece in the way.
Then the enemy sends a few ships to you and tries to attack but its easy to defend, especially with a castle, a few towers and your troops that you have from the beginning. This makes the mission really easy.

Sorry if this is old news Wink

I didnt read the whole thread now

Gombill

2010-08-22 01:07:52 pm

Cabbage - I don't think pausing during the dialogue works, at least from when I've tried it. I think there's a 'wait' timer that triggers in the game that allows the dialogue enough time to finish, and pausing the game pauses the 'wait' timer also. I will test this again, though, because obviously it's important. As far as the timing is concerned, I really don't care which is used. Mike seemed more interested in using the game time and forcing runners to play on Fast, if only for the fact that it would make timing easier on the verifiers.

ThomasDollar - I thought something like this might be possible. Early in my running of this level it might have been useful information, but in terms of producing a fast run it would take too long to ferry the villagers out to the island and get the wonder started. My current goal is to build the wonder right next to my starting town center and try to defend, this will be extremely difficult but will also produce the fastest time if I can pull it off.

Cabbage - I don't think pausing during the dialogue works, at least from when I've tried it.  I think there's a 'wait' timer that triggers in the game that allows the dialogue enough time to finish, and pausing the game pauses the 'wait' timer also.  I will test this again, though, because obviously it's important.  As far as the timing is concerned, I really don't care which is used.  Mike seemed more interested in using the game time and forcing runners to play on Fast, if only for the fact that it would make timing easier on the verifiers.

ThomasDollar - I thought something like this might be possible.  Early in my running of this level it might have been useful information, but in terms of producing a fast run it would take too long to ferry the villagers out to the island and get the wonder started.  My current goal is to build the wonder right next to my starting town center and try to defend, this will be extremely difficult but will also produce the fastest time if I can pull it off.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2010-08-22 01:23:37 pm

2010-08-22 01:20:23 pm

Quote from Gombill:

I think there's a 'wait' timer that triggers in the game that allows the dialogue enough time to finish, and pausing the game pauses the 'wait' timer also.

From what I could tell when I briefly tested (and it's possible I'm stupid and made a mistake somehow), the text accompanying dialogue does indeed ordinarily disappear on a timer (which pauses when you enter a menu) if there is no other dialogue waiting to play, BUT if there is another piece of dialogue waiting to play, it can begin as soon as the audio from the currently playing dialogue finishes, and doesn't have to wait for the text timer.

Whether level win triggers that occur at the end of dialogue will wait for the text timer or fire the moment the audio finishes, I don't know. Also I only tested this on WW1 and while one would expect all the game's dialogue to behave in the same way, it is still possible that dialogue in other levels is scripted differently in some significant way.

Gombill

2010-08-22 02:52:51 pm

I just tested again on GK1 and it doesn't make any difference to pause during the audio. I'll post a video here in a few minutes so you can see it from my angle. Maybe this has to do with a patching difference? I'm still playing with Conquerors installed and all of the latest patches.

ExplodingCabbage

2010-08-22 03:49:35 pm

I'll try to set up the same situation now and see if my game behaves the same.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2010-08-22 04:34:51 pm

ExplodingCabbage: 2010-08-22 04:34:28 pm

ExplodingCabbage: 2010-08-22 04:23:59 pm

2010-08-22 04:23:34 pm

My game behaves the same on GK1 as in your video. However, I just double checked WW1 and the pause trick really does work on some of the dialogue there, though I haven't checked yet whether it is at all beneficial. Have a play around and see for yourself. I think this will need testing on a level-by-level basis.

Edit: Just tested, and it doesn't seem to be useful on WW1. You get through the dialogue quicker, but as far as I can tell that has no impact on anything else.

Gombill

Edit history:

Gombill: 2010-08-22 10:49:31 pm

2010-08-22 10:31:03 pm

Finally completed a run for Joan of Arc 5. The time is 13:16, which beats my old goal of 15:00 pretty substantially, but I don't think it will be possible for me to be completely satisfied with a run for this level. It's one of those types of things where a TAS could probably beat the level in about 7:00 but a human couldn't possibly do all the micro required for that. I think my limit is around 12:00.

As I've complained before, every archer, ship, and tower in the level will aim for the villagers if it can (since they tend to target weak units) and the villagers die in 3 hits. Thus a wide swath of destruction needs to be cleared for the villagers to survive. This rules out the front-door approach because the british see the front of the base as their "town" and will send all of their units to help if you try to attack there. They not only outnumber you, but are also much better upgraded and the longbows are ridiculous to hunt down. Thus, in spite of it being slower, the sneaky back door is required.

The stupidest part of the whole mission is the enemy ships. They are extremely difficult to destroy, as the bombard cannons are the only real capable ship-killers, but they can keep dodging. In the run I posted here, it still took 4 volleys to take down a slower cannon galleon. The galleons love to camp near the shoreline and kill any villagers they see, so the villagers have to go inland. Nothing can save them from the bridge crossing, though, so they just have to make a run for it.

I really don't want to see this mission again. Maybe I'll come back to it and try for better, but I just hate it. Only 2 levels left now!

Finally completed a run for Joan of Arc 5.  The time is 13:16, which beats my old goal of 15:00 pretty substantially, but I don't think it will be possible for me to be completely satisfied with a run for this level.  It's one of those types of things where a TAS could probably beat the level in about 7:00 but a human couldn't possibly do all the micro required for that.  I think my limit is around 12:00.

As I've complained before, every archer, ship, and tower in the level will aim for the villagers if it can (since they tend to target weak units) and the villagers die in 3 hits.  Thus a wide swath of destruction needs to be cleared for the villagers to survive.  This rules out the front-door approach because the british see the front of the base as their "town" and will send all of their units to help if you try to attack there.  They not only outnumber you, but are also much better upgraded and the longbows are ridiculous to hunt down.  Thus, in spite of it being slower, the sneaky back door is required.

The stupidest part of the whole mission is the enemy ships.  They are extremely difficult to destroy, as the bombard cannons are the only real capable ship-killers, but they can keep dodging.  In the run I posted here, it still took 4 volleys to take down a slower cannon galleon.  The galleons love to camp near the shoreline and kill any villagers they see, so the villagers have to go inland.  Nothing can save them from the bridge crossing, though, so they just have to make a run for it.

I really don't want to see this mission again.  Maybe I'll come back to it and try for better, but I just hate it.  Only 2 levels left now!

Attachment:

JOA5_1316_LQ.mp4

Hugo123

2010-08-24 12:41:23 am

If I remember corretly you can order the cannons to attack a certain ground so that the galleon won't move away.
Maybe you with that attack order you can kill it faster. (3 attack the water and one the galleons making it move into the bombarded water.)
It's a while since I played AoE2 but I think I used that a lot with catapults against workers. :p

Gombill

2010-08-24 02:35:33 am

When I've tried using attack ground the enemy still moves - this might be a difficulty difference, or maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

I was just playing around with Saladin 2 and realized I had the victory condition on the Pirates completely wrong. I had thought before you had to kill all of his villagers and his TC, but it turns out you really need to destroy the TC and all transport ships! (Seems kind of random)

So the whole building a tower on his island, killing all the villagers off, etc. (although kind of humorous) was completely unnecessary. I expect an improvement on the order of 16:00 < 22:57 now that I know the true goal. I'll have some practice run times up by tomorrow probably.

Gombill

Edit history:

Gombill: 2010-08-24 10:06:14 pm

2010-08-24 08:15:09 pm

Saladin 2 in 14:02 < 22:57 !!

My first improvement was to about 16:00 as I thought I might be able to get, but I realized I could also skip destroying the tower near the TC if I just kept it busy with one ship while the rest nailed the TC. The result is this run, which is still a ways from perfect I think but warranted the update because of the almost 9 minutes shaved off.

I think sub-13 will be possible by pulling the ships over to the TC faster and remembering to mine gold (whoops). Not that big of a deal since I'm the saracens and have cheap market trading, but still... I also had bad luck having to chase an enemy ship backwards. The forgetting about housing didn't make that big of a difference since the TC firing zone is saturated with 7 ships anyways.

EDIT: Had a run of Saladin 6 end with just 17 wonder years left. It would have been within 10 seconds of perfect. Will keep trying.

Attachment:

SAL2_1402_LQ.mp4