Tomb Raider : A survivor is born

2015-08-22 11:42:41 am

(Intro Oob)
Lara jumps sort of a bow or a curve around the point I want to get and then she is besides the wooden beam place on the path in the caves. Has someone an idea why she does that?

But when she doesn't do that it works. And there occured another question: I`ll do it as the guide video shows: walk up the stone and then dodge the wooden beam over Lara. But when I dodged it I`m not able to walk back again. I always fall down on the path again. Its a bit hard to see so my question: Do I try to walk as near as possible to the beam the way back?

TheArtisticBallistic

2015-08-27 11:03:28 am

At this point it's really hard to give you any help. The video showing you where to go is probably the best help you can get. Intro oob is hard. Controls are terrible. Things don't make sense. And it's a grind until you get it.

aimlezz

2015-08-28 10:57:01 am

hey there,

so, i'm seeing the Glitchless category is becoming more active over the last few weeks, and i have a question open to debate regarding this category:

what are we defining as Glitch?
IMO, a glitch is a technique used to overcome the hardcoded Rules of the Gameworld.
Keeping that in mind: Here are some Key strats i'd like to put a special focus on: (behind the key point is my personal oppinion)

1) Door clipping -> Not allowed
2) Elevator -> Not allowed
3) Skywalk -> Not allowed
4) Fire Arrow Skip (the old one, done with a simple Jump) -> Allowed. Why? You dont go around the rules of the game. You simply jump and turn.
5) Out of bounds -> Not allowed
6) Grim Skip #2 -> No idea. You use a damage boost, which can basically hit you anytime. The other part is a simple jump. Really need input on that
7) Grim Skip #1 -> Not allowed. The area you jump into is technically OOB
8) Cage Puzzle Skip + Assault Rifle riddle skip (the jump, not the door clip) -> Should technically be allowed, since you dont clip. The wall is just displayed and not a real object, hence
you can go through it, without actually clipping.
9) Gauntlet Skip -> Not allowed. The area you jump through is OOB.

These are the first points coming to mind, if anyone'd like to add something, feel free.

hey there,

so, i'm seeing the Glitchless category is becoming more active over the last few weeks, and i have a question open to debate regarding this category:

what are we defining as Glitch? 
IMO, a glitch is a technique used to overcome the hardcoded Rules of the Gameworld. 
Keeping that in mind: Here are some Key strats i'd like to put a special focus on: (behind the key point is my personal oppinion)

1) Door clipping -> Not allowed
2) Elevator -> Not allowed
3) Skywalk -> Not allowed
4) Fire Arrow Skip (the old one, done with a simple Jump) -> Allowed. Why? You dont go around the rules of the game. You simply jump and turn. 
5) Out of bounds -> Not allowed
6) Grim Skip #2 -> No idea. You use a damage boost, which can basically hit you anytime. The other part is a simple jump. Really need input on that
7) Grim Skip #1 -> Not allowed. The area you jump into is technically OOB
8) Cage Puzzle Skip + Assault Rifle riddle skip (the jump, not the door clip) -> Should technically be allowed, since you dont clip. The wall is just displayed and not a real object, hence
you can go through it, without actually clipping. 
9) Gauntlet Skip -> Not allowed. The area you jump through is OOB.

These are the first points coming to mind, if anyone'd like to add something, feel free.

TheArtisticBallistic

Edit history:

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-29 06:58:26 am

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-29 06:51:30 am

2015-08-28 10:32:03 pm

4) Fire arrow skip is totally useless since you will have to clip through the gate in order to finish the game.
6) Grim Skip #2 jumping from midair after walking straight through air not counting as a glitch is a bit bold. Or in other words to me this is taking advantage of an ingame bug that was in no way intended to exist and therefor I qualify it as a glitch.

8) both cage puzzle and assault rife are extremly disputable. I get the idea of what you mean with overcome the hardcoded rules of the gameworld, but its meaning is very unclear. For the cage puzzle you will have to jump at a specific spot for it to work, meaning the game was coded for her not to be able to climb through rocks which makes me wonder isn't that overcoming hardcoded rules of the gameworld? And the assault rifle wall is really tough. Since it "feels" wrong.. I see both options for that one. But allowing it would mean that you can jump through the wall during final climb that you normally have to crush with the bell (before collapsing rope)... at least on pc you can just jump through it when you hit the right spot.

So maybe it is easier to qualify a glitch somewhere along the lines of "deviation from ingame physics (which is also extremly inaccurate)". Eg. Ingame walls have the property of being solid--> jumping through a wall = glitch. Where as number 4 jumping away from a wall can be done everywhere = no glitch. Or Lara can not walk through air, nor jump --> 6) --> Lara Walks through air and jumps midair = glitch. etc.

10) Step up clipping (research base fight skip)
11) ice skating
12) scramble jumps

What should be ok is: Wolf cave approach, river skip, shanty shortcut before gondola, friendship skip, cutscene skip (at beach). bunker skip (shooting the pillar with the shotgun). Walkie talkie skip at final approach. Then there are those shortcuts like dropping down from the rope before the last climb of the game, the house on fire right before cannon bridge has a shortcut, right before you get the grenade launcher you can jump over a fire, deer jump.. etc.. i think those shouldn't be a problem to agree on.

4) Fire arrow skip is totally useless since you will have to clip through the gate in order to finish the game.
6) Grim Skip #2 jumping from midair after walking straight through air not counting as a glitch is a bit bold. Or in other words to me this is taking advantage of an ingame bug that was in no way intended to exist and therefor I qualify it as a glitch.

8) both cage puzzle and assault rife are extremly disputable. I get the idea of what you mean with overcome the hardcoded rules of the gameworld, but its meaning is very unclear. For the cage puzzle you will have to jump at a specific spot for it to work, meaning the game was coded for her not to be able to climb through rocks which makes me wonder isn't that overcoming hardcoded rules of the gameworld? And the assault rifle wall is really tough. Since it "feels" wrong.. I see both options for that one. But allowing it would mean that you can jump through the wall during final climb that you normally have to crush with the bell (before collapsing rope)... at least on pc you can just jump through it when you hit the right spot.

So maybe it is easier to qualify a glitch somewhere along the lines of "deviation from ingame physics (which is also extremly inaccurate)". Eg. Ingame walls have the property of being solid--> jumping through a wall = glitch. Where as number 4 jumping away from a wall can be done everywhere = no glitch. Or Lara can not walk through air, nor jump --> 6) --> Lara Walks through air and jumps midair = glitch. etc.

10) Step up clipping (research base fight skip)
11) ice skating
12) scramble jumps

What should be ok is: Wolf cave approach, river skip, shanty shortcut before gondola, friendship skip, cutscene skip (at beach). bunker skip (shooting the pillar with the shotgun). Walkie talkie skip at final approach. Then there are those shortcuts like dropping down from the rope before the last climb of the game, the house on fire right before cannon bridge has a shortcut, right before you get the grenade launcher you can jump over a fire, deer jump.. etc.. i think those shouldn't be a problem to agree on.

aimlezz

2015-08-29 02:10:40 am

i definetly see your point. Regarding early Fire Arrow Skip: Cant you just reload the checkpoint to get rid of the black/white stuff and then do the fight normally?
6) i can agree on that. Technically its just a combination of intented gameplay mechs, but the sum makes it a violation of rules.

10) RB Fight Skip -> not allowed. You are using an elevator that is OOB
11) No idea....
12) definetly okay.

- Wolf cave approach is 100% legit, its simply the quickest way to get there. No oob, no other glitches
- river skip? Dont remember atm Cheesy

do you have a link?
- friendship skip -> Which versions? Technically both options shoulb be legit
- cutscene skip at beach -> legit
- bunker skip -> legit
- deer jump -> legit

TheArtisticBallistic

Edit history:

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-29 06:53:19 am

2015-08-29 06:47:10 am

6) There is a wooden beam that you have to burn down with a fire arrow in order to open the gate, plus you will need another fire arrow at the beginning of the blood cave and the game only gives you fire arrows when you clip the gate.

11) thats the sand attack into walkie talkie scene
12) I don't care wether scramble jumping is ok or not. Just note that if it wasn't a glitch it would work on 30 fps so the rules are a bit stretched here in case you want to allow that.

-river skip is after you get the rope, where you jump on some rocks instead of using a rope arrow to cross the river.
-i think both the melee and fence strats are fine for friendship skip as well

Eydas

2015-08-29 09:40:37 am

Quote from aimlezz:

5) Out of bounds -> Not allowed

But now we're facing another question - how exactly do we define 'Out of Bounds'?

Quote from aimlezz:

9) Gauntlet Skip -> Not allowed. The area you jump through is OOB.

Which part exactly is OOB? The fence? The pillar?

Quote from aimlezz:

8) Cage Puzzle Skip

How about the wooden beam you walk on? Is that not OOB? Or even the dead bodies you land on, for that matter?

Quote from aimlezz:

7) Grim Skip #1 -> Not allowed. The area you jump into is technically OOB

There's also this method. Is this ok?

Quote from aimlezz:

- Wolf cave approach is 100% legit, its simply the quickest way to get there. No oob, no other glitches

So the part of the roof we walk on isn't OOB? Why not?

13) House Skip -> Legit if we allow jump extension.
14) Pre-friendship Skip -> Uses melee climbing, which I'm not sure if a glitch or not. But you use melee climbing for one of the friendship skip methods too, so I guess it's ok.

My personal opinion, these things are too difficult to define. Glitchless should best be thought of as a 'just for fun' category, where the runner simply comes up with their own rules and isn't competing against anyone else.

[quote="aimlezz"]5) Out of bounds -> Not allowed[/quote]
But now we're facing another question - how exactly do we define 'Out of Bounds'?

[quote="aimlezz"]9) Gauntlet Skip -> Not allowed. The area you jump through is OOB. [/quote]
Which part exactly is OOB? The fence? The pillar?

[quote="aimlezz"]8) Cage Puzzle Skip[/quote]
How about the wooden beam you walk on? Is that not OOB? Or even the dead bodies you land on, for that matter?

[quote="aimlezz"]7) Grim Skip #1 -> Not allowed. The area you jump into is technically OOB [/quote]
There's also [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC0kUBlOLxg"]this method[/url]. Is this ok?

[quote="aimlezz"]- Wolf cave approach is 100% legit, its simply the quickest way to get there. No oob, no other glitches[/quote]
So the part of the roof we walk on isn't OOB? Why not?

13) House Skip -> Legit if we allow jump extension.
14) Pre-friendship Skip -> Uses melee climbing, which I'm not sure if a glitch or not. But you use melee climbing for one of the friendship skip methods too, so I guess it's ok.

My personal opinion, these things are too difficult to define. Glitchless should best be thought of as a 'just for fun' category, where the runner simply comes up with their own rules and isn't competing against anyone else.

TheArtisticBallistic

2015-08-29 10:46:34 am

5) Well there is a way to define out of bounds. And you can do that with the help of invisible walls, to me that is extremely effective.

this makes cage puzzle and wolf cave approach inbound. I think grim skip 1 should be inbound as well that way.
So the two missing are final gauntlet skip which by that definition should be inbound too, but it has 2 problems: The jump over the fence is a scramble jump which leads back to the question glitch yes/no. Not getting a scramble jump will give you a pseudo skywalk next to the bridge (pseudo because it's not actual skywalking but you float at the side of the bridge very similar to skywalking) and therefor can be considered a glitch as well.

The other one that might not be that clear is monastery. But since we jump around an invisible wall to get behind it, the invisible wall rule can be applied there. (and yea the shove jump would be the same question as pre- / friendship skip)

aimlezz

Edit history:

aimlezz: 2015-08-29 12:34:48 pm

aimlezz: 2015-08-29 12:33:08 pm

2015-08-29 12:32:01 pm

Quote from Eydas:

Quote from aimlezz:

5) Out of bounds -> Not allowed

But now we're facing another question - how exactly do we define 'Out of Bounds'?

Quote from aimlezz:

9) Gauntlet Skip -> Not allowed. The area you jump through is OOB.

Which part exactly is OOB? The fence? The pillar?

Quote from aimlezz:

8) Cage Puzzle Skip

How about the wooden beam you walk on? Is that not OOB? Or even the dead bodies you land on, for that matter?

Quote from aimlezz:

7) Grim Skip #1 -> Not allowed. The area you jump into is technically OOB

There's also this method. Is this ok?

Quote from aimlezz:

- Wolf cave approach is 100% legit, its simply the quickest way to get there. No oob, no other glitches

So the part of the roof we walk on isn't OOB? Why not?

13) House Skip -> Legit if we allow jump extension.
14) Pre-friendship Skip -> Uses melee climbing, which I'm not sure if a glitch or not. But you use melee climbing for one of the friendship skip methods too, so I guess it's ok.

My personal opinion, these things are too difficult to define. Glitchless should best be thought of as a 'just for fun' category, where the runner simply comes up with their own rules and isn't competing against anyone else.

9) Whats OOB? Well, the HUGE gap you jump. Whats out of Bounds? Out of Bounds is a place thats a) Behind invisible walls and / or b) places that kill you would you attempt to land / stand there and / or c) in general, leaving the defined / designed area.
Now lets apply it here: Is there an invisible wall? No. Would you die when you would attempt to land in the gap? you bet. Do you leave the defined walls of the designed area? You damn right, you do.

8) Using my OOB definition: Do you die? no. Do you leave the defined / designed area? No. Do you jump invisibe walls? No. Still, i can see that we agree on: All visible objects are treated as a real object. Clipping or going through them would thus be a glitch

7) Your method is legit.

Wolf cave:
Again: Do you die? Nope. Do you pass invisible walls? Nope. Do you leave the area? Nope

Monastery: Do you die? Nope. Do you pass invisible walls? Maybe (depending on method to go oob). Do you leave the area? Yea you do

[quote="Eydas"][quote="aimlezz"]5) Out of bounds -> Not allowed[/quote]
But now we're facing another question - how exactly do we define 'Out of Bounds'?

[quote="aimlezz"]9) Gauntlet Skip -> Not allowed. The area you jump through is OOB. [/quote]
Which part exactly is OOB? The fence? The pillar?

[quote="aimlezz"]8) Cage Puzzle Skip[/quote]
How about the wooden beam you walk on? Is that not OOB? Or even the dead bodies you land on, for that matter?

[quote="aimlezz"]7) Grim Skip #1 -> Not allowed. The area you jump into is technically OOB [/quote]
There's also [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC0kUBlOLxg"]this method[/url]. Is this ok?

[quote="aimlezz"]- Wolf cave approach is 100% legit, its simply the quickest way to get there. No oob, no other glitches[/quote]
So the part of the roof we walk on isn't OOB? Why not?

13) House Skip -> Legit if we allow jump extension.
14) Pre-friendship Skip -> Uses melee climbing, which I'm not sure if a glitch or not. But you use melee climbing for one of the friendship skip methods too, so I guess it's ok.

My personal opinion, these things are too difficult to define. Glitchless should best be thought of as a 'just for fun' category, where the runner simply comes up with their own rules and isn't competing against anyone else.[/quote]

9) Whats OOB? Well, the HUGE gap you jump. Whats out of Bounds? Out of Bounds is a place thats a) Behind invisible walls and / or b) places that kill you would you attempt to land / stand there and / or c) in general, leaving the defined / designed area. 
Now lets apply it here: Is there an invisible wall? No. Would you die when you would attempt to land in the gap? you bet. Do you leave the defined walls of the designed area? You damn right, you do.

8) Using my OOB definition: Do you die? no. Do you leave the defined / designed area? No. Do you jump invisibe walls? No. Still, i can see that we agree on: All visible objects are treated as a real object. Clipping or going through them would thus be a glitch

7) Your method is legit.

Wolf cave: 
Again: Do you die?  Nope. Do you pass invisible walls? Nope. Do you leave the area? Nope

Monastery: Do you die? Nope. Do you pass invisible walls? Maybe (depending on method to go oob). Do you leave the area? Yea you do

TheArtisticBallistic

Edit history:

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-29 05:27:17 pm

2015-08-29 05:17:07 pm

Quote:

9) Whats OOB? Well, the HUGE gap you jump. Whats out of Bounds? Out of Bounds is a place thats a) Behind invisible walls and / or b) places that kill you would you attempt to land / stand there and / or c) in general, leaving the defined / designed area. Now lets apply it here: Is there an invisible wall? No. Would you die when you would attempt to land in the gap? you bet. Do you leave the defined walls of the designed area? You damn right, you do.

I don't understand this at all. i mean you say and/or between a, b, c. thus one yes = oob. When I attempt to land in the gaps on the way to captain Jessop I die. Therefor it is a yes for every gap you have to jump in b) therefor those are all oobs.

Cage puzzle: a) no. b) yes!!! (second body to floor = death) c) Well I don't know, im pretty sure that the area up there isn't defined I mean it's solid but well, look how many oob rocks / objects are solid. So is the ceiling of the room the border? And what if it's an open area what defines the border of defined / designed area, next to invisible walls which are a seperate point apparently?

vs gauntlet: a) no. b) yes. c) well you take ONE jump. You jump from the starting platform to the middle platfrom. I don't see oob written in the sky between those platforms at all. Please explain how only the air right above the solid ground is designed and the air between is not? note that all the jumps to captain Jessop are a) no b) yes c) no. and I claim point c) for gaunlet is a no

I feel like this is what you could possibly be facing...

EDIT: I better change glitch to oob Smiley

[quote]9) Whats OOB? Well, the HUGE gap you jump. Whats out of Bounds? Out of Bounds is a place thats a) Behind invisible walls and / or b) places that kill you would you attempt to land / stand there and / or c) in general, leaving the defined / designed area. Now lets apply it here: Is there an invisible wall? No. Would you die when you would attempt to land in the gap? you bet. Do you leave the defined walls of the designed area? You damn right, you do.[/quote]

I don't understand this at all. i mean you say and/or between a, b, c. thus one yes = oob. When I attempt to land in the gaps on the way to captain Jessop I die. Therefor it is a yes for every gap you have to jump in b) therefor those are all oobs.

Cage puzzle: a) no. b) yes!!! (second body to floor = death) c) Well I don't know, im pretty sure that the area up there isn't defined I mean it's solid but well, look how many oob rocks / objects are solid. So is the ceiling of the room the border? And what if it's an open area what defines the border of defined / designed area, next to invisible walls which are a seperate point apparently?

vs gauntlet: a) no. b) yes. c) well you take ONE jump. You jump from the starting platform to the middle platfrom. I don't see oob written in the sky between those platforms at all. Please explain how only the air right above the solid ground is designed and the air between is not? note that all the jumps to captain Jessop are a) no b) yes c) no. and I claim point c) for gaunlet is a no

I feel like this is what you could possibly be facing...

EDIT: I better change glitch to oob :)

Zydin

Edit history:

Zydin: 2015-08-29 09:52:30 pm

2015-08-29 09:50:48 pm

If I may way in for a moment, I think cage puzzle skip should not be allowed because you're jumping through what should be solid rock. Exactly why you'd not be allowing certain other skips. If you wanted to break the rocks apart and then go for it, sure by all means...

Imo, the gauntlet skip should be okay simply for that fact that you can play through that area normally and then die in the exact same place you die from doing the skip. Technically, it isn't OOB. I think a good definition of OOBs would be areas the designers didn't 'create content for'. For example, monastery skip lets you get on top of solid rock yes, but clearly they didn't design that part of the stage for one to be able to traverse normally. I wouldn't allow it. I would allow Grim Skip #1 (jumping around the death floor) because content is clearly made for that area so it isn't outside the area like Intro skip is.

Or, if you wanted to take a dictionary definition, OOB = Outside of the regular playing area.

aimlezz

2015-08-30 03:05:07 am

Quote from TheArtisticBallistic:

Quote:

9) Whats OOB? Well, the HUGE gap you jump. Whats out of Bounds? Out of Bounds is a place thats a) Behind invisible walls and / or b) places that kill you would you attempt to land / stand there and / or c) in general, leaving the defined / designed area. Now lets apply it here: Is there an invisible wall? No. Would you die when you would attempt to land in the gap? you bet. Do you leave the defined walls of the designed area? You damn right, you do.

I don't understand this at all. i mean you say and/or between a, b, c. thus one yes = oob. When I attempt to land in the gaps on the way to captain Jessop I die. Therefor it is a yes for every gap you have to jump in b) therefor those are all oobs.

Cage puzzle: a) no. b) yes!!! (second body to floor = death) c) Well I don't know, im pretty sure that the area up there isn't defined I mean it's solid but well, look how many oob rocks / objects are solid. So is the ceiling of the room the border? And what if it's an open area what defines the border of defined / designed area, next to invisible walls which are a seperate point apparently?

vs gauntlet: a) no. b) yes. c) well you take ONE jump. You jump from the starting platform to the middle platfrom. I don't see oob written in the sky between those platforms at all. Please explain how only the air right above the solid ground is designed and the air between is not? note that all the jumps to captain Jessop are a) no b) yes c) no. and I claim point c) for gaunlet is a no

I feel like this is what you could possibly be facing...

EDIT: I better change glitch to oob Smiley

that is correct. Every single gap you have to jump in the whole game is OOB. If it wasnt oob, then it would be inbound, hence you could go there without modification to the code and or rules. Now tell me, can you simply jump into the gaps on your way to cpt. jessop and continue playing? Not really.
To cage puzzle: Its specifically defined for objects you stand on, not for the case that you fall off of it. I mean, you die when you let go of the wall in the final climb. Obviously thats not oob.
Also, the desinged area IS the room itself, hence the beams are NOT oob. But like i already said, we can agree on the wall clipping part which makes the whole endevour oob.

Gauntlet: a)no, b) yes, c) no. Hence its oob. You only need to fulfill one criteria for it to count as an oob.
I mean, you are cordially invited to jump down there, dont die, and then climb up using your pickaxe and then climbing on the bridge, but i'm quite sure thats not possible.

Quote from Zydin:

If I may way in for a moment, I think cage puzzle skip should not be allowed because you're jumping through what should be solid rock. Exactly why you'd not be allowing certain other skips. If you wanted to break the rocks apart and then go for it, sure by all means...

Imo, the gauntlet skip should be okay simply for that fact that you can play through that area normally and then die in the exact same place you die from doing the skip. Technically, it isn't OOB. I think a good definition of OOBs would be areas the designers didn't 'create content for'. For example, monastery skip lets you get on top of solid rock yes, but clearly they didn't design that part of the stage for one to be able to traverse normally. I wouldn't allow it. I would allow Grim Skip #1 (jumping around the death floor) because content is clearly made for that area so it isn't outside the area like Intro skip is.

Or, if you wanted to take a dictionary definition, OOB = Outside of the regular playing area.

Gauntlet Skip: If you finish the gauntlet and then die jumping over the railing -> thats just not realistic. Why would anyone do that? The Gap you jump clearly deviates from the designed area / path, hence its oob. Otherwise we can also go ahead and allow Monastery, the big one in shantytown, air boat skip and intro oob. With all these, you technically only jump or walk through an eaea to shorten a designed path.

[quote="TheArtisticBallistic"][quote]9) Whats OOB? Well, the HUGE gap you jump. Whats out of Bounds? Out of Bounds is a place thats a) Behind invisible walls and / or b) places that kill you would you attempt to land / stand there and / or c) in general, leaving the defined / designed area. Now lets apply it here: Is there an invisible wall? No. Would you die when you would attempt to land in the gap? you bet. Do you leave the defined walls of the designed area? You damn right, you do.[/quote]

I don't understand this at all. i mean you say and/or between a, b, c. thus one yes = oob. When I attempt to land in the gaps on the way to captain Jessop I die. Therefor it is a yes for every gap you have to jump in b) therefor those are all oobs.

Cage puzzle: a) no. b) yes!!! (second body to floor = death) c) Well I don't know, im pretty sure that the area up there isn't defined I mean it's solid but well, look how many oob rocks / objects are solid. So is the ceiling of the room the border? And what if it's an open area what defines the border of defined / designed area, next to invisible walls which are a seperate point apparently?

vs gauntlet: a) no. b) yes. c) well you take ONE jump. You jump from the starting platform to the middle platfrom. I don't see oob written in the sky between those platforms at all. Please explain how only the air right above the solid ground is designed and the air between is not? note that all the jumps to captain Jessop are a) no b) yes c) no. and I claim point c) for gaunlet is a no

I feel like this is what you could possibly be facing...

EDIT: I better change glitch to oob :)[/quote]

that is correct. Every single gap you have to jump in the whole game is OOB. If it wasnt oob, then it would be inbound, hence you could go there without modification to the code and or rules.  Now tell me, can you simply jump into the gaps on your way to cpt. jessop and continue playing? Not really. 
To cage puzzle: Its specifically defined for objects you stand on, not for the case that you fall off of it. I mean, you die when you let go of the wall in the final climb. Obviously thats not oob. 
Also, the desinged area IS the room itself, hence the beams are NOT oob. But like i already said, we can agree on the wall clipping part which makes the whole endevour oob.

Gauntlet: a)no, b) yes, c) no. Hence its oob. You only need to fulfill one criteria for it to count as an oob. 
I mean, you are cordially invited to jump down there, dont die, and then climb up using your pickaxe and then climbing on the bridge, but i'm quite sure thats not possible.

[quote="Zydin"]If I may way in for a moment, I think cage puzzle skip should not be allowed because you're jumping through what should be solid rock. Exactly why you'd not be allowing certain other skips. If you wanted to break the rocks apart and then go for it, sure by all means...

Imo, the gauntlet skip should be okay simply for that fact that you can play through that area normally and then die in the exact same place you die from doing the skip. Technically, it isn't OOB. I think a good definition of OOBs would be areas the designers didn't 'create content for'. For example, monastery skip lets you get on top of solid rock yes, but clearly they didn't design that part of the stage for one to be able to traverse normally. I wouldn't allow it. I would allow Grim Skip #1 (jumping around the death floor) because content is clearly made for that area so it isn't outside the area like Intro skip is.

Or, if you wanted to take a dictionary definition, OOB = Outside of the regular playing area.[/quote]

Gauntlet Skip: If you finish the gauntlet and then die jumping over the railing -> thats just not realistic. Why would anyone do that? The Gap you jump clearly deviates from the designed area / path, hence its oob. Otherwise we can also go ahead and allow Monastery, the big one in shantytown, air boat skip and intro oob. With all these, you technically only jump or walk through an eaea to shorten a designed path.

TheArtisticBallistic

Edit history:

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-30 08:42:08 am

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-30 08:41:19 am

2015-08-30 08:19:35 am

Quote:

that is correct. Every single gap you have to jump in the whole game is OOB. If it wasnt oob, then it would be inbound, hence you could go there without modification to the code and or rules. Now tell me, can you simply jump into the gaps on your way to cpt. jessop and continue playing? Not really.

I'm surprised that you agree on this. So according to you the glitchless run ends in the intro cave then. As the jump after the slide down when the floor collapses under Lara is clearly a: no, yes, no jump hence it is clearly oob. According to you a first time playthrough of someone who has never seen a speedrun will go oob 3 times before he exits the cave. You don't have the climbing axe to get back up you just die and can't continue playing. And the closest checkpoint is not even as close as for gauntlet. You can only continue playing when you actually jump over the gap. Yes 3 of them in total in the intro. You will never succeed in convincing people whats oob as long as you don't see this.

Sure it's not that easy to define what's oob and what's not. But the 2 most important aspects of those rules are that the "most casual inbound stuff" doesn't fall under the category of oob. And the rules should be consistent for the whole game.
You will only achieve consitency when you tie your rules to something other people can "meassure" or at least feel ingame like invisible walls. And whenever you add a rule better check if there is casual inbound stuff affected by those rules. For the moment it's nothing but a random assembly of skips that Aimlezz likes for reasons we don't know.

EDIT: I think now I know what causes some confusion here: On Pc you can jump over the railing directly so there is no getting stuck at the side of the bridge. (which is also why I said I can understand to not allow gauntlet skip for glitch reasons. a) not allowing scramble jump (this means you can not jump over the railing directly). b) getting stuck at the side of the bridge is like a skywalk as Lara is in her falling animation but you prevent her from taking the fall which is a deviation from ingame physics.)

[quote]that is correct. Every single gap you have to jump in the whole game is OOB. If it wasnt oob, then it would be inbound, hence you could go there without modification to the code and or rules.  Now tell me, can you simply jump into the gaps on your way to cpt. jessop and continue playing? Not really. [/quote]

I'm surprised that you agree on this. So according to you the glitchless run ends in the intro cave then. As the jump after the slide down when the floor collapses under Lara is clearly a: no, yes, no jump hence it is clearly oob. According to you a first time playthrough of someone who has never seen a speedrun will go oob 3 times before he exits the cave. You don't have the climbing axe to get back up you just die and can't continue playing. And the closest checkpoint is not even as close as for gauntlet. You can only continue playing when you actually jump over the gap. Yes 3 of them in total in the intro. You will never succeed in convincing people whats oob as long as you don't see this.

Sure it's not that easy to define what's oob and what's not. But the 2 most important aspects of those rules are that the "most casual inbound stuff" doesn't fall under the category of oob. And the rules should be consistent for the whole game.
You will only achieve consitency when you tie your rules to something other people can "meassure" or at least feel ingame like invisible walls. And whenever you add a rule better check if there is casual inbound stuff affected by those rules. For the moment it's nothing but a random assembly of skips that Aimlezz likes for reasons we don't know.

EDIT: I think now I know what causes some confusion here: On Pc you can jump over the railing directly so there is no getting stuck at the side of the bridge. (which is also why I said I can understand to not allow gauntlet skip for glitch reasons. a) not allowing scramble jump (this means you can not jump over the railing directly). b) getting stuck at the side of the bridge is like a skywalk as Lara is in her falling animation but you prevent her from taking the fall which is a deviation from ingame physics.)

aimlezz

Edit history:

aimlezz: 2015-08-30 01:56:39 pm

aimlezz: 2015-08-30 01:53:51 pm

aimlezz: 2015-08-30 01:53:28 pm

2015-08-30 01:38:39 pm

Quote from TheArtisticBallistic:

Quote:

that is correct. Every single gap you have to jump in the whole game is OOB. If it wasnt oob, then it would be inbound, hence you could go there without modification to the code and or rules. Now tell me, can you simply jump into the gaps on your way to cpt. jessop and continue playing? Not really.

I'm surprised that you agree on this. So according to you the glitchless run ends in the intro cave then. As the jump after the slide down when the floor collapses under Lara is clearly a: no, yes, no jump hence it is clearly oob. According to you a first time playthrough of someone who has never seen a speedrun will go oob 3 times before he exits the cave. You don't have the climbing axe to get back up you just die and can't continue playing. And the closest checkpoint is not even as close as for gauntlet. You can only continue playing when you actually jump over the gap. Yes 3 of them in total in the intro. You will never succeed in convincing people whats oob as long as you don't see this.

Sure it's not that easy to define what's oob and what's not. But the 2 most important aspects of those rules are that the "most casual inbound stuff" doesn't fall under the category of oob. And the rules should be consistent for the whole game.
You will only achieve consitency when you tie your rules to something other people can "meassure" or at least feel ingame like invisible walls. And whenever you add a rule better check if there is casual inbound stuff affected by those rules. For the moment it's nothing but a random assembly of skips that Aimlezz likes for reasons we don't know.

EDIT: I think now I know what causes some confusion here: On Pc you can jump over the railing directly so there is no getting stuck at the side of the bridge. (which is also why I said I can understand to not allow gauntlet skip for glitch reasons. a) not allowing scramble jump (this means you can not jump over the railing directly). b) getting stuck at the side of the bridge is like a skywalk as Lara is in her falling animation but you prevent her from taking the fall which is a deviation from ingame physics.)

i'm quite sure youre mixing things up here. Do you die when the floor breaks away from you in the intro? I dont think so, its a designed gameplay element
regarding the gaps: Man, is that really so hard to grasp? The bottom of the gap is OOB. God, its not that hard is it? Of course you have to jump it. Again, so this maybe makes it more clear: the bottom is oob. You cant go there. If you can, feel free, then youre playing another game than i am. OOB -> out of bounds. Hence, if its not in bound its out of bounds >.>

and no, thats not causing any confusion. For some reason, its just not becoming clear, why the huge gap you jump is oob.

[quote="TheArtisticBallistic"][quote]that is correct. Every single gap you have to jump in the whole game is OOB. If it wasnt oob, then it would be inbound, hence you could go there without modification to the code and or rules.  Now tell me, can you simply jump into the gaps on your way to cpt. jessop and continue playing? Not really. [/quote]

I'm surprised that you agree on this. So according to you the glitchless run ends in the intro cave then. As the jump after the slide down when the floor collapses under Lara is clearly a: no, yes, no jump hence it is clearly oob. According to you a first time playthrough of someone who has never seen a speedrun will go oob 3 times before he exits the cave. You don't have the climbing axe to get back up you just die and can't continue playing. And the closest checkpoint is not even as close as for gauntlet. You can only continue playing when you actually jump over the gap. Yes 3 of them in total in the intro. You will never succeed in convincing people whats oob as long as you don't see this.

Sure it's not that easy to define what's oob and what's not. But the 2 most important aspects of those rules are that the "most casual inbound stuff" doesn't fall under the category of oob. And the rules should be consistent for the whole game.
You will only achieve consitency when you tie your rules to something other people can "meassure" or at least feel ingame like invisible walls. And whenever you add a rule better check if there is casual inbound stuff affected by those rules. For the moment it's nothing but a random assembly of skips that Aimlezz likes for reasons we don't know.

EDIT: I think now I know what causes some confusion here: On Pc you can jump over the railing directly so there is no getting stuck at the side of the bridge. (which is also why I said I can understand to not allow gauntlet skip for glitch reasons. a) not allowing scramble jump (this means you can not jump over the railing directly). b) getting stuck at the side of the bridge is like a skywalk as Lara is in her falling animation but you prevent her from taking the fall which is a deviation from ingame physics.)[/quote]

i'm quite sure youre mixing things up here. Do you die when the floor breaks away from you in the intro? I dont think so, its a designed gameplay element
regarding the gaps: Man, is that really so hard to grasp? The bottom of the gap is OOB. God, its not that hard is it? Of course you have to jump it. Again, so this maybe makes it more clear: the bottom is oob. You cant go there. If you can, feel free, then youre playing another game than i am. OOB -> out of bounds. Hence, if its not in bound its out of bounds >.>

and no, thats not causing any confusion. For some reason, its just not becoming clear, why the huge gap you jump is oob.

TheArtisticBallistic

2015-08-30 03:05:40 pm

Quote:

Man, is that really so hard to grasp? The bottom of the gap is OOB. God, its not that hard is it? Of course you have to jump it. Again, so this maybe makes it more clear: the bottom is oob. You cant go there. If you can, feel free, then youre playing another game than i am. OOB -> out of bounds. Hence, if its not in bound its out of bounds >.>

Apparently for me it is yes. So if the bottom of that floor during the intro gaps is oob and the bottom of that gauntlet jump is also clearly oob why are you allowed to jump over an oob area in one case and not in the other? thats my question pretty much the whole time. Maybe I'm too stupid for this, but as long as I don't see the answer to that question I'm confused by your rules.

Zydin

2015-08-30 08:14:27 pm

Sure, the bottom is OOB, that's why the game KILLS YOU WHEN YOU GET THERE. If you are still alive, you're still in bounds. (Speaking strictly in regards to jumping gaps)

aimlezz

Edit history:

aimlezz: 2015-08-31 02:55:21 am

2015-08-31 02:54:39 am

Quote from TheArtisticBallistic:

Quote:

Man, is that really so hard to grasp? The bottom of the gap is OOB. God, its not that hard is it? Of course you have to jump it. Again, so this maybe makes it more clear: the bottom is oob. You cant go there. If you can, feel free, then youre playing another game than i am. OOB -> out of bounds. Hence, if its not in bound its out of bounds >.>

Apparently for me it is yes. So if the bottom of that floor during the intro gaps is oob and the bottom of that gauntlet jump is also clearly oob why are you allowed to jump over an oob area in one case and not in the other? thats my question pretty much the whole time. Maybe I'm too stupid for this, but as long as I don't see the answer to that question I'm confused by your rules.

Quote from Zydin:

Sure, the bottom is OOB, that's why the game KILLS YOU WHEN YOU GET THERE. If you are still alive, you're still in bounds. (Speaking strictly in regards to jumping gaps)

this ^^ And why is it okay to jump over OOb in one case and not another? Well, because the game is designed that way. You are supposed to jump the gap in the intro. you are NOT supposed to jump the gap at the gauntlet. If you were supposed to do that and if it wasn't a glitch, well, then they wouldn't have fixed it in the rerelease, now would they?

[quote="TheArtisticBallistic"][quote]Man, is that really so hard to grasp? The bottom of the gap is OOB. God, its not that hard is it? Of course you have to jump it. Again, so this maybe makes it more clear: the bottom is oob. You cant go there. If you can, feel free, then youre playing another game than i am. OOB -> out of bounds. Hence, if its not in bound its out of bounds >.> [/quote]

Apparently for me it is yes. So if the bottom of that floor during the intro gaps is oob and the bottom of that gauntlet jump is also clearly oob why are you allowed to jump over an oob area in one case and not in the other? thats my question pretty much the whole time. Maybe I'm too stupid for this, but as long as I don't see the answer to that question I'm confused by your rules.[/quote]
[quote="Zydin"]Sure, the bottom is OOB, that's why the game KILLS YOU WHEN YOU GET THERE. If you are still alive, you're still in bounds. (Speaking strictly in regards to jumping gaps) [/quote]

this ^^ And why is it okay to jump over OOb in one case and not another? Well, because the game is designed that way. You are supposed to jump the gap in the intro. you are NOT supposed to jump the gap at the gauntlet. If you were supposed to do that and if it wasn't a glitch, well, then they wouldn't have fixed it in the rerelease, now would they?

TheArtisticBallistic

2015-08-31 06:44:01 am

Ok one more try.

That the bottom of those gaps is oob was out of question.
Maybe my grammar is really bad but all im interested in is why a JUMP OVER an oob area is ok in one case and not in the other. I never cared about the bottom of those gaps, all thats important is that the bottom area is oob.

So I continued to think about your abc rule logically (yes, very much indeed) to see the consequence it has for the game. Unfortuneatley I feel very missunderstood. But at least the last answer from Aimlezz is helpful.

So let's go back to your abc system. If you want your abc system to work out logically your question a and c are okay while again c is opinion based which is not optimal (but maybe there is no way around it anyways). Question b is bad because you didn't tell us what you are thinking!!! So as a matter of fact question b is a two part question. The first part is: Do you die when you land in the middle --> No = No oob, Yes = Second question. Does your jump save time / skip part of the game? Yes --> oob, no --> no oob.

I'm sorry but please explain to me where this is written?

Quote:

9) Whats OOB? Well, the HUGE gap you jump. Whats out of Bounds? Out of Bounds is a place thats a) Behind invisible walls and / or b) places that kill you would you attempt to land / stand there and / or c) in general, leaving the defined / designed area.

I tried really hard but I coudln't see this. I mean you said one yes = glitch. And again every gap jump has a yes in b) so it should still be disqualified, but with a two part question it can have a yes in b) and a no in the follow up question so you can actually finish the game.

Now the whole time you were defining a jump being oob with the deciding factor wether it saves time or not (or skips part of the game). It can have the very same properties as a normal gap jump but when it saves time it is oob. Hence not allowed in a glitchless run. For me this is a first ok!

Quote:

this ^^ And why is it okay to jump over OOb in one case and not another? Well, because the game is designed that way. You are supposed to jump the gap in the intro. you are NOT supposed to jump the gap at the gauntlet. If you were supposed to do that and if it wasn't a glitch, well, then they wouldn't have fixed it in the rerelease, now would they?

This is again just flawed logic. Here is why:

Just because it skips something doesn't mean it's a glitch.
(Quick reminder: You are trying to make glichless run, not a skipless run)
You say them fixing it means it's a glitch. While them fixing it means they're preventing a skip. That's all period.

Using your logic for a bit:

"If they fixed the small roof at wolf cave approach it means it was a glitch the entire time and we just thought it was platforming. Since they didn't fix the small roof at wolf cave approach it means we are supposed to do that. The whole plane wreck section and the lightning cutscene is just extra."

So now I'm really curious if you (or Eydass, Moxxii etc) can undestand my thought process. If you can't well then feel free to do whatever you want as I will have no interest anymore Angry

Ok one more try.

That the bottom of those gaps is oob was out of question.
Maybe my grammar is really bad but all im interested in is why a JUMP OVER an oob area is ok in one case and not in the other. I never cared about the bottom of those gaps, all thats important is that the bottom area is oob.

So I continued to think about your abc rule logically (yes, very much indeed) to see the consequence it has for the game. Unfortuneatley I feel very missunderstood. But at least the last answer from Aimlezz is helpful.

So let's go back to your abc system. If you want your abc system to work out logically your question a and c are okay while again c is opinion based which is not optimal (but maybe there is no way around it anyways). [b]Question b is bad because you didn't tell us what you are thinking!!![/b] So as a matter of fact question b is a two part question. The first part is: Do you die when you land in the middle --> No = No oob, Yes = Second question. Does your jump save time / skip part of the game? Yes --> oob, no --> no oob.

I'm sorry but please explain to me where this is written?

[quote]9) Whats OOB? Well, the HUGE gap you jump. Whats out of Bounds? Out of Bounds is a place thats a) Behind invisible walls and / or b) places that kill you would you attempt to land / stand there and / or c) in general, leaving the defined / designed area. [/quote]

??? I tried really hard but I coudln't see this. I mean you said one yes = glitch. And again every gap jump has a yes in b) so it should still be disqualified, but with a two part question it can have a yes in b) and a no in the follow up question so you can actually finish the game.

Now the whole time you were defining a jump being oob with the deciding factor wether it saves time or not (or skips part of the game). It can have the very same properties as a normal gap jump but when it saves time it is oob. Hence not allowed in a glitchless run. For me this is a first ok!

[quote]this ^^ And why is it okay to jump over OOb in one case and not another? Well, because the game is designed that way. You are supposed to jump the gap in the intro. you are NOT supposed to jump the gap at the gauntlet. If you were supposed to do that and if it wasn't a glitch, well, then they wouldn't have fixed it in the rerelease, now would they?[/quote]

This is again just flawed logic. Here is why:

[b]Just because it skips something doesn't mean it's a glitch.[/b]
(Quick reminder: You are trying to make glichless run, not a skipless run)
You say them fixing it means it's a glitch. While them fixing it means they're preventing a skip. That's all period.

Using your logic for a bit:

"If they fixed the small roof at wolf cave approach it means it was a glitch the entire time and we just thought it was platforming. Since they didn't fix the small roof at wolf cave approach it means we are supposed to do that. The whole plane wreck section and the lightning cutscene is just extra."

So now I'm really curious if you (or Eydass, Moxxii etc) can undestand my thought process. If you can't well then feel free to do whatever you want as I will have no interest anymore >:(

aimlezz

Edit history:

aimlezz: 2015-08-31 07:52:19 am

aimlezz: 2015-08-31 07:50:41 am

2015-08-31 07:50:01 am

Quote from TheArtisticBallistic:

So let's go back to your abc system. If you want your abc system to work out logically your question a and c are okay while again c is opinion based which is not optimal (but maybe there is no way around it anyways). Question b is bad because you didn't tell us what you are thinking!!! So as a matter of fact question b is a two part question. The first part is: Do you die when you land in the middle --> No = No oob, Yes = Second question. Does your jump save time / skip part of the game? Yes --> oob, no --> no oob.

Well, for me my sentence was very clear. Let me iterate what i mean with that part, and you tell me whats unclear for you, so i can try to make it more clear.

If you land in any given Spot, and the game kills you. It is for me a 100% sign, that the area in question is OOB. Otherwise, the game would allow you to keep on playing.
May it be a gap in the intro, or the gap for the gauntlet skip or whatever gap in the whole game, IMO all gaps in the game are OOB. That is why you die when you jump down there and not over them.
Now, we have to apply this to all areas in the game. But keep in mind, the game wants you to do certain things. Like jumping the gaps in the intro. Or jumping the gaps on your way to Cpt. Jessop. It is designed that way. Of course, in these cases you jump over an OOB area and land in an IB area, but you have no choice. Its a designed gamplay element. The path you have to take clearly forces you to do that.
Now, lets have a look at the gauntlet Jump. Again, you jump over an OOB area and land in an IB area. But this time, you deviate from the given path. Its not about that you save time by doing it, on the contrary, runners SHOULD be able to save time, the point i'm seeing as the key factor for this one is my point c).

Every place you are in. Every place you visit. Should be, and is defined as a "room". E.g. For the wolf-cave approach: The room is the whole area. With the camp, and the downed airplanes and whatnot. For the Gauntlet however, the room IMO is clearly a ring.
I drew something up in Paint real quick, to help make my point:

that ^^ is a rough representation of the "Room" for the Gauntlet. (I know its crappy, but it gets the job done)
Now. If you jump the gap, you clearly leave the "Room" of the Gauntlet.
Okay, so now, lets have a look at the Wolf-cave approach:
The "room" is the whole Area. Obviously my Paint skills are not good enough to draft a representation of the room, but i hope everyone can follow me here.
When we are tasked with gettin to the wolf-cave, there is a)the obvious way the gamedesigners wanted us to take. Or b)the route we actually take.
For neither of these options we leave the "room" of the area. Now the roof we stand on:
a) Are there invisible walls: No
b) Do we die, standing on the roof?: No
c) Do we leave the room of the area? No
Therefore it should be not counted as an OOB.

To adress the issue you had with the intro gaps and all other gaps in the game: lets just add another point: d) Do you NEED to go through that OOB Area in order to continue the game
Intro:
Room: The room of the intro is the cave, its walls are the walls of the cave.

Gaps:
a) Invisible walls: No.
b) Do you die when you stand in there: Yes
c) Do you leave the "room" of the intro. No
d) Do you need to jump through / over the OOB area in order to continue playing: Yes

Therefore these jumps are considered legit (and more than that, necessary)

Intro OOB:
a)Invisible Walls: Maybe
b)Do you Die: No
c) Do you leave the room: Yes
d) Do you need to make the jump in order to continue: No
Therefore it should NOT be legit.

Grim Skip #1, where you jump around the corner in front of the bridge:
Room: Everything, the walls of the room are the fences and walls of the area
a) Invisible Walls: No
b) Do you die when you attempt to land there? Yes
c) Do you leave the "room" No
d) Do you need to jump through the OOB in order to continue playing: No
Therefore it should NOT be legit.

Again, it is NOT about saving time. I think without the ability to save time we could just scrap the whole category, it is about clearly defining what you can and can't do.

[quote="TheArtisticBallistic"]
So let's go back to your abc system. If you want your abc system to work out logically your question a and c are okay while again c is opinion based which is not optimal (but maybe there is no way around it anyways). [b]Question b is bad because you didn't tell us what you are thinking!!![/b] So as a matter of fact question b is a two part question. The first part is: Do you die when you land in the middle --> No = No oob, Yes = Second question. Does your jump save time / skip part of the game? Yes --> oob, no --> no oob. [/Quote]

Well, for me my sentence was very clear.  Let me iterate what i mean with that part, and you tell me whats unclear for you, so i can try to make it more clear.

If you land in any given Spot, and the game kills you. It is for me a 100% sign, that the area in question is OOB. Otherwise, the game would allow you to keep on playing. 
May it be a gap in the intro, or the gap for the gauntlet skip or whatever gap in the whole game, IMO all gaps in the game are OOB. That is why you die when you jump down there and not over them. 
Now, we have to apply this to all areas in the game. But keep in mind, the game wants you to do certain things. Like jumping the gaps in the intro. Or jumping the gaps on your way to Cpt. Jessop. It is designed that way. Of course, in these cases you jump over an OOB area and land in an IB area, but you have no choice. Its a designed gamplay element. The path you have to take clearly forces you to do that. 
Now, lets have a look at the gauntlet Jump. Again, you jump over an OOB area and land in an IB area. But this time, you deviate from the given path. Its not about that you save time by doing it, on the contrary, runners SHOULD be able to save time, the point i'm seeing as the key factor for this one is my point c).

Every place you are in. Every place you visit. Should be, and is defined as a "room". E.g. For the wolf-cave approach: The room is the whole area. With the camp, and the downed airplanes and whatnot. For the Gauntlet however, the room IMO is clearly a ring. 
I drew something up in Paint real quick, to help make my point: 
[img]http://i.imgur.com/8WHrI57.jpg[/img] 
that ^^ is a rough representation of the "Room" for the Gauntlet. (I know its crappy, but it gets the job done)
Now. If you jump the gap, you clearly leave the "Room" of the Gauntlet. 
Okay, so now, lets have a look at the Wolf-cave approach: 
The "room" is the whole Area. Obviously my Paint skills are not good enough to draft a representation of the room, but i hope everyone can follow me here. 
When we are tasked with gettin to the wolf-cave, there is a)the obvious way the gamedesigners wanted us to take. Or b)the route we actually take. 
For neither of these options we leave the "room" of the area. Now the roof we stand on: 
a) Are there invisible walls: No 
b) Do we die, standing on the roof?: No
c) Do we leave the room of the area? No
Therefore it should be not counted as an OOB.

To adress the issue you had with the intro gaps and all other gaps in the game: lets just add another point: d) Do you NEED to go through that OOB Area in order to continue the game 
Intro:
Room: The room of the intro is the cave, its walls are the walls of the cave.

Gaps: 
a) Invisible walls: No.
b) Do you die when you stand in there: Yes
c) Do you leave the "room" of the intro. No
d) Do you need to jump through / over the OOB area in order to continue playing: Yes

Therefore these jumps are considered legit (and more than that, necessary)

Intro OOB: 
a)Invisible Walls: Maybe
b)Do you Die: No
c) Do you leave the room: Yes
d) Do you need to make the jump in order to continue: No
Therefore it should NOT be legit.

Grim Skip #1, where you jump around the corner in front of the bridge:
Room: Everything, the walls of the room are the fences and walls of the area
a) Invisible Walls: No
b) Do you die when you attempt to land there? Yes
c)  Do you leave the "room" No
d) Do you need to jump through the OOB in order to continue playing: No
Therefore it should NOT be legit.

Again, it is NOT about saving time. I think without the ability to save time we could just scrap the whole category, it is about clearly defining what you can and can't do.

TheArtisticBallistic

2015-08-31 09:25:51 am

Ok this one really helps to understand some of the differences.

Quote:

the room IMO is clearly a ring

thats why I made this:

http://i.imgur.com/nPEXa6b.jpg

Now you say gauntlet jump clearly leaves the area and ONLY therefor is not allowed. You answer point b) now yourself with yes for gaps and added another rule, thats alright. Which when taken really correctly leads to: at the Cpt. Jessop area now you have to use ropes instead of jumping over the gaps since you don't have to make the jump to continue.

So I'm still confused when b) is answered with yes... it depends on wether there is an alternative or not. When there is no alternative it is fine when there is an alternative it is oob.

Now this is the important part so please read this carefully: The nature of every skip is that it is an alternative route over the existing one. So if we find a skip (alternative route) that involves a jump that gets you killed when you don't make it to the other side it is by default not allowed since there is another route (the exisitng one). So you use the basic property of a skip (being an alternative route) as the reason to not allow it in a glitchless run. THIS exactly THIS I can not understand.

Grim skip 1 Has no glitch mechanics at all involved. It is platfroming. You say there are no invisible walls, you say you don't leave the room. It gets you killed when you don't make the jump (well maybe Lara landing on sharp wooden spikes comming out of water = death, ever thought about that?). Anyways the reason it gets disqualified in the end is because there is an alternative route. You see how you use the basic property of a skip (being an alternative route) as the reason to disqualify it.

Ok this one really helps to understand some of the differences. [quote]the room IMO is clearly a ring[/quote]

thats why I made this:

http://i.imgur.com/nPEXa6b.jpg

Now you say gauntlet jump clearly leaves the area and ONLY therefor is not allowed. You answer point b) now yourself with yes for gaps and added another rule, thats alright. Which when taken really correctly leads to: at the Cpt. Jessop area now you have to use ropes instead of jumping over the gaps since you don't have to make the jump to continue.

So I'm still confused when b) is answered with yes... it depends on wether there is an alternative or not. When there is no alternative it is fine when there is an alternative it is oob.

Now this is the important part so please read this carefully: The nature of every skip is that it is an alternative route over the existing one. So if we find a skip (alternative route) that involves a jump that gets you killed when you don't make it to the other side it is by default not allowed since there is another route (the exisitng one). So you use the basic property of a skip (being an alternative route) as the reason to not allow it in a glitchless run. THIS exactly THIS I can not understand.

Grim skip 1 Has no glitch mechanics at all involved. It is platfroming. You say there are no invisible walls, you say you don't leave the room. It gets you killed when you don't make the jump (well maybe Lara landing on sharp wooden spikes comming out of water = death, ever thought about that?). Anyways the reason it gets disqualified in the end is because there is an alternative route. You see how you use the basic property of a skip (being an alternative route) as the reason to disqualify it.

Vampstreak

2015-08-31 09:36:48 am

Okay, I didn't want to get involved in this discussion but since i'm in a good mood i'll go ahead and say what i think.

Currently there are two runs on the leaderboard for glitchless%. I actually watched both runs. Neither of them have any form of skips or tricks. they play the game 100% how the game is supposed to be played and they do it quickly. I like this. I feel that glitchless% should mean no skips, tricks, glitches, or any other form of 'cheating'. Since those two runners are running glitchless% exactly how the game is meant to be played then that is how all of us should run it. It would be absolutely unfair for us to just go in, run the game with a few tricks albeit they aren't considered glitches. Those two runners would be at a disadvantage and I'm quite certain that they run glitchless% because they don't want to use any of the skips and stuff.

So what i'm trying to say is that nothing should be allowed. Run the game normally and quickly. That way it would not only be fair to the two current runners for the category, but for all of us as well.

Vamp out. Live. Laugh. Love. Peace.

Okay, I didn't want to get involved in this discussion but since i'm in a good mood i'll go ahead and say what i think.

Currently there are two runs on the leaderboard for glitchless%. I actually watched both runs. Neither of them have any form of skips or tricks. they play the game 100% how the game is supposed to be played and they do it quickly. I like this. I feel that glitchless% should mean no skips, tricks, glitches, or any other form of 'cheating'. Since those two runners are running glitchless% exactly how the game is meant to be played then that is how all of us should run it. It would be absolutely unfair for us to just go in, run the game with a few tricks albeit they aren't considered glitches. Those two runners would be at a disadvantage and I'm quite certain that they run glitchless% because they don't want to use any of the skips and stuff.

So what i'm trying to say is that nothing should be allowed. Run the game normally and quickly. That way it would not only be fair to the two current runners for the category, but for all of us as well.

Vamp out. Live. Laugh. Love. Peace.

aimlezz

2015-08-31 09:42:39 am

Quote from Vampstreak:

Okay, I didn't want to get involved in this discussion but since i'm in a good mood i'll go ahead and say what i think.

Currently there are two runs on the leaderboard for glitchless%. I actually watched both runs. Neither of them have any form of skips or tricks. they play the game 100% how the game is supposed to be played and they do it quickly. I like this. I feel that glitchless% should mean no skips, tricks, glitches, or any other form of 'cheating'. Since those two runners are running glitchless% exactly how the game is meant to be played then that is how all of us should run it. It would be absolutely unfair for us to just go in, run the game with a few tricks albeit they aren't considered glitches. Those two runners would be at a disadvantage and I'm quite certain that they run glitchless% because they don't want to use any of the skips and stuff.

So what i'm trying to say is that nothing should be allowed. Run the game normally and quickly. That way it would not only be fair to the two current runners for the category, but for all of us as well.

Vamp out. Live. Laugh. Love. Peace.

Okay, i can dig that. No ifs, no strats, no coconuts

[quote="Vampstreak"]Okay, I didn't want to get involved in this discussion but since i'm in a good mood i'll go ahead and say what i think.

Currently there are two runs on the leaderboard for glitchless%. I actually watched both runs. Neither of them have any form of skips or tricks. they play the game 100% how the game is supposed to be played and they do it quickly. I like this. I feel that glitchless% should mean no skips, tricks, glitches, or any other form of 'cheating'. Since those two runners are running glitchless% exactly how the game is meant to be played then that is how all of us should run it. It would be absolutely unfair for us to just go in, run the game with a few tricks albeit they aren't considered glitches. Those two runners would be at a disadvantage and I'm quite certain that they run glitchless% because they don't want to use any of the skips and stuff.

So what i'm trying to say is that nothing should be allowed. Run the game normally and quickly. That way it would not only be fair to the two current runners for the category, but for all of us as well.

Vamp out. Live. Laugh. Love. Peace.[/quote]

Okay, i can dig that. No ifs, no strats, no coconuts

TheArtisticBallistic

Edit history:

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-31 10:14:06 am

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-31 10:10:10 am

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-31 10:09:39 am

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-31 09:48:55 am

TheArtisticBallistic: 2015-08-31 09:45:49 am

2015-08-31 09:44:48 am

Ok so we had this whole discussion just to make the glitchless run a skipless run.

gg.

EDIT: I messed up some changes... anyways I'm ok with leaving the forum alone. And Aimlezz we can skype about the glitchless run if you want.

TheArtisticBallistic

2015-08-31 03:16:29 pm

So... I did a skipless run. (my chat was bugged and no messages appeared so only at the very end of the stream I realized some of you were actually there).

I have some questions and they should not lead to a big discussion so I dare to adress them:

Are checkpoint reloads ok?
After the deer door: Is it ok to climb up the ladder so you can jump down? is that a skip or not?
When you first enter the research base is it ok to not drop in the water and just take the shortcut?
At the very last zip line is it ok to drop down early and skip some of the climbing?

Pewable

2015-08-31 06:13:28 pm

Wow what is happening here, are you guys fighting or something?

To me it's "ok" for your four questions Artistic, it's not like they do something the game doesn't want you to do (like clipping a wall) or skip a cutscene.