Thief 2: The Metal Age

SocratesJohnson

Edit history:

SocratesJohnson: 2015-08-09 12:18:19 am

2015-08-09 12:12:25 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

I think the routes the guards take are triggered at a certain distance. The most notable instance I can think of is the mech on the way to Bay D. Since I use my first speed potion a little later to avoid getting spotted by the sentry by the first supply room, the mech on the way to Bay D is usually ahead of schedule, and can notice me, and if I'm late on other shit, it could possibly alert the mechs in front of Bay D and, yeah, fuck everything up. So, if I use the speed potion a little earlier, I'll most likely get spotted by the sentry and have a tougher time leaving the supply room, but the mech will be in the good spot, but if I wait to use the speed potion to avoid the sentry, the mech will screw me over.

Also, I think the Ambush exit that Jake showed could be version based. Morgothom and I were chatting earlier, and she was able to get the same exit consistently (and faster), whereas I'm unable to. I'm not sure what version she's running, (I'm 1.21, and I THINK she's on 1.23) but I want to grab it and beat her time. Tongue

I think the routes the guards take are triggered at a certain distance.  The most notable instance I can think of is the mech on the way to Bay D.  Since I use my first speed potion a little later to avoid getting spotted by the sentry by the first supply room, the mech on the way to Bay D is usually ahead of schedule, and can notice me, and if I'm late on other shit, it could possibly alert the mechs in front of Bay D and, yeah, fuck everything up.  So, if I use the speed potion a little earlier, I'll most likely get spotted by the sentry and have a tougher time leaving the supply room, but the mech will be in the good spot, but if I wait to use the speed potion to avoid the sentry, the mech will screw me over.

Also, I think the Ambush exit that Jake showed could be version based.  Morgothom and I were chatting earlier, and she was able to get the same exit consistently (and faster), whereas I'm unable to.  I'm not sure what version she's running,  (I'm 1.21, and I THINK she's on 1.23) but I want to grab it and beat her time. :P

Hazzmat

2015-08-09 12:44:02 am

I barely run Quake

Actually, I think the trigger for the archer guard on the right side of Building B is the open area in between B and A. I waited next to the giant crate next to Building A, near spawn, for a few minutes and by the time I got over to Building B he was just a little bit away from the starting position. Also the pirates might have different triggers from the guards, because the 2nd pirate was outside of Building B already by the time I turned the corner. I don't know what their trigger is as of now, or if there's even NPC triggers in the first place.

jakeplissken

2015-08-09 12:46:09 am

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

I'm still trying to figure out why that trigger works that way. I ran the same test I did in the video and used the "show version" feature with shift-alt-v and both the save I used and the brand new level were on 1.21 final, but I want to try it again on different versions. Hey, if it saves ten seconds it might be worth it.

I intuitively feel like all guard routes are triggered at certain distances just like convos are. Sometimes with guards that have really long patrol routes, I notice that even if I screw up way earlier in the run and lose 10-15 seconds, I can do the later section consistently and the guard will always be in the same spot. One example for that would be the roundabout leading to the storage room in Soulforge. I knock out the first mechanist there, and on my return trip after picking up the papyrus there's a mechanist patrolling around his body no matter what pace I'm on. I don't really have any video evidence to support that though.

Also sorry I missed you on stream earlier Hazzmatt, I haven't figured out my chat overlay with Thief 2 yet :p

I'm still trying to figure out why that trigger works that way. I ran the same test I did in the video and used the "show version" feature with shift-alt-v and both the save I used and the brand new level were on 1.21 final, but I want to try it again on different versions. Hey, if it saves ten seconds it might be worth it.

I intuitively feel like all guard routes are triggered at certain distances just like convos are. Sometimes with guards that have really long patrol routes, I notice that even if I screw up way earlier in the run and lose 10-15 seconds, I can do the later section consistently and the guard will always be in the same spot. One example for that would be the roundabout leading to the storage room in Soulforge. I knock out the first mechanist there, and on my return trip after picking up the papyrus there's a mechanist patrolling around his body no matter what pace I'm on. I don't really have any video evidence to support that though.

Also sorry I missed you on stream earlier Hazzmatt, I haven't figured out my chat overlay with Thief 2 yet :p

LotBlind

2015-08-09 01:51:15 pm

Yes it's obviously to save RAM or CPU. I'm not sure that NPCs will be active forever after first triggering though, I think they go back into dormant state if you're sufficiently far away. At least certain routines (like I said, they don't seem to pay attention to bodies) are disabled. It COULD well be area-per-area and that makes sense. The game seems to be divided that way in more than one respect, most notably the sound zones. That means you can't hear guards' footsteps until you're in the same area they're in. The most typical or noticeable transition is outside->inside a building. The ambience tends to change at the same time. So in that case the devs might have strewn zones around a bit arbitrarily and we shouldn't expect to find too much logic in them, but I expect you and other category runners will all have something to gain from further and more exact knowledge, even up to the point of knowing where exactly the zones change in case you ever want to trigger it early (if you move out, do they just freeze again or what exactly happens?) to manipulate stuff to be in more readiness when you come round.

Another theory is they first trigger zone-per-zone, but are active for as long as you are within a certain range (or perhaps so long as you have LoS) so they don't just fall asleep when you move away.

So yeah just remember to keep editing any little things you've found into the guide. That's how it's become so comprehensive and it means none of us have to scan the rest of the thread just to recover someone else's (or our own) research).

I personally have never been on the rooftops of Mission 2 because a) I didn't know elevatoring when I was doing that mission and b) mantling sucks in pre-.19. I did find the OOB but I've never bothered mentioning stuff like that in this thread (in fact I am interested in it and am collecting all that fun trivial stuff for an anti-walkthrough or something later on). You can also get there just by hopping off the ship's boom.

Yes it's obviously to save RAM or CPU. I'm not sure that NPCs will be active forever after first triggering though, I think they go back into dormant state if you're sufficiently far away. At least certain routines (like I said, they don't seem to pay attention to bodies) are disabled. It COULD well be area-per-area and that makes sense. The game seems to be divided that way in more than one respect, most notably the sound zones. That means you can't hear guards' footsteps until you're in the same area they're in. The most typical or noticeable transition is outside->inside a building. The ambience tends to change at the same time. So in that case the devs might have strewn zones around a bit arbitrarily and we shouldn't expect to find too much logic in them, but I expect you and other category runners will all have something to gain from further and more exact knowledge, even up to the point of knowing where exactly the zones change in case you ever want to trigger it early (if you move out, do they just freeze again or what exactly happens?) to manipulate stuff to be in more readiness when you come round.

Another theory is they first trigger zone-per-zone, but are active for as long as you are within a certain range (or perhaps so long as you have LoS) so they don't just fall asleep when you move away.

So yeah just remember to keep editing any little things you've found into the guide. That's how it's become so comprehensive and it means none of us have to scan the rest of the thread just to recover someone else's (or our own) research).

I personally have never been on the rooftops of Mission 2 because a) I didn't know elevatoring when I was doing that mission and b) mantling sucks in pre-.19. I did find the OOB but I've never bothered mentioning stuff like that in this thread (in fact I am interested in it and am collecting all that fun trivial stuff for an anti-walkthrough or something later on). You can also get there just by hopping off the ship's boom.

SocratesJohnson

2015-08-09 02:48:02 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Some thing after playing around with Tafferpatcher:

1) Installing just the patch (1.23 in this case) doesn't give the level end trigger in Ambush as shown by Jake.
2) A full installation of Tafferpatcher gives the level end trigger in Ambush in that corner.

Here's what is all installed with a full installation:

Patch 1.18
Patch 1.23
Common Scripts for Fan-missions
DromEd Mission Editor
Complete Resource Fix Pack 1.1e
-Enhanced skies
-Enhanced water
-Enhancement Pack
-NTEX Texture Pack

I'm not sure which of those is doing it, but I have 2 installations, one for just the patch, and the other for the full patch. I want to play around on the full patch and see if it screws with anything else.

SocratesJohnson

2015-08-09 03:36:31 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I've narrowed it down to the Complete Resource Fix Pack 1.1e that expands the exit zone in Ambush.

jakeplissken

2015-08-09 03:39:49 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Yep. I just ran through Ambush again. The only thing I had installed was Patch 1.21 and the Complete Resource Fix Pack 1.1e and could consistently get that exit. That would make sense since when I was messing with those save files, I reinstalled Tafferpatcher on each installation.

SocratesJohnson

2015-08-09 04:07:21 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Here's a post about the fix itself: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141121

Also a link to some before and after pictures of what it fixes in some missions: http://imgur.com/a/X73P0#0

Some extra stuff: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141121&p=2179419&viewfull=1#post2179419

jakeplissken

2015-08-09 04:32:47 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Cool stuff. The game certainly looks a lot better with the fix pack, but unfortunately I don't think it saves time in a speedrun besides Ambush because it also prevents doors from being blown open by fire arrows and/or mines. I actually remember speedrunning this game with this patch installed and back then I thought that the fire arrow trick was something you could only do on 1.00 and other older versions that I didn't have access to. In fact I still have my notes for that. It makes for somber reading (picking the lock to Cavador's site which is a 3-cycle, taking the intended route into the bank via the basement window, etc) and my PB was a suspicious 1:07:something. However for Ambush itself, the fix pack route seems like the fastest way by far.

SocratesJohnson

2015-08-09 04:42:25 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I was wondering what caused fire arrows to not work on doors about 2 years ago when I installed it on my laptop! Yeah, just went and tested it, sure enough, doesn't work, nice find!

Bank, Precious Cargo, and Sabotage have metal doors that get blown open, so I would definitely take that ability over the time save on Ambush.

jakeplissken

2015-08-09 04:53:28 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Yeah that was driving me mad as well, I only put it all together just now. I dug through the list of changes and couldn't find anything relating to that. The only thing I found relating to fire arrows was "Set firearrow to use proper model and fixed attached particles". I thought that maybe the fire arrow model change may have inadvertently removed the ability to open doors, but in fact no conventional explosives work anymore. I just tested this by triggering a stack of mines with a broadhead and that also doesn't open metal doors. To me this is really confusing because I thought that opening doors with fire arrows was an intended mechanic just like door bashing. If anything, the frogbeast door trick was unintentional. But in fact, the frogbeast trick still works with both fire arrows and broadheads with the fix pack installed, so at least you wouldn't lose time on Masks. Maybe explosives were only intended to open wooden doors?

Hazzmat

2015-08-09 11:18:07 pm

I barely run Quake

I wonder if messing around in DromEd would let you see specifically what triggers an NPC's actions. I haven't used DromEd before, though, so I don't know how it works. Might be worth looking into.

LotBlind

2015-08-10 11:43:19 am

So that patch... official or not? I.e. could you have gotten it in a Steam or GOG release at some point? I don't know whether the ILs table can be filled with runs for different versions of the game (no idea if that's a thing on SDA). But I see you're not doing anything with it in the end. That could be something to mention under "version differences" btw.

HazzMat: I imagine DromEd should show you anything you're normally able to set while mapping... if you're having a hard time with that (I do encourage you to try!) maybe the ttlg boards could offer help and insight. They're going to have over a decade's worth of expertise.

jakeplissken

2015-08-10 07:53:42 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

I don't have the GOG version of the game, but as far as I know the Steam version currently ships as 1.21 with no Tafferpatcher at all. That would mean no Complete Resource Fix Pack 1.1e. The patch itself is fan-made. I think it's a judgement call, but I also don't like the prospect of having a bunch of different versions with lists of fan-made patches for ILs. I think that it would make IL record attempts more prohibitive. I.E. if one level is fastest on 1.18 and another is fastest on 1.21, that's probably valid because both were official patches. But if one is fastest on 1.21 and another is fastest on 1.21 with the Complete Resource Fix Pack 1.1e or a host of other fan-made patches etc, that seems like it's too much. After all we've seen that these fan-made patches can have a large impact on the route despite ostensibly just being "fixes."

LotBlind

2015-08-11 11:29:10 am

That's precisely why it's never allowed. If it's a fan anything, it's strictly not allowed. If GOG and Steam are both 1.21 then that's the only newdark version you must run (but earlier Steam and GOG versions also count).

SocratesJohnson

Edit history:

SocratesJohnson: 2015-08-11 08:14:20 pm

2015-08-11 08:13:48 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I think I fixed my framerate issues while streaming. Cheesy

D3D mode wasn't agreeing with it, so I shut it down. Although I won't be surprised if it crops back up in a couple of months.

jakeplissken

Edit history:

jakeplissken: 2015-08-11 11:41:28 pm

jakeplissken: 2015-08-11 10:38:52 pm

2015-08-11 10:37:43 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Man, I got excited until I found out that I can't change the gamma with D3D off. I run in windowed so I have to either choose between the good stream framerate or the gamma adjust but beggars can't be choosers. I also figured out a consistent way of opening Jenivere's door with the key by ramming Garrett into the door while dropping the key at the right time.

I can get it to work about half of the time, I think it's just a matter of good timing. It's not as easy as using the key on the guard's door because you're kind of coming in at an angle. Unfortunately the video framerate is a very classic 30fps because I forgot to change it. Also Jenivere gets alerted at the end of the mission for some reason? It seems to happen a lot more when I use the key than when I do it the old way.

LotBlind

2015-08-12 01:05:48 pm

Jenivere suddenly realizes she got tricked by a prankster. She's mad at herself for having fallen for it.

When is anyone going to test the arrow method? Get an arrow off a guard and shoot her door instead. Or throw a crate at it?

Socrates: Congratulations! Nobody cares.

jakeplissken

Edit history:

jakeplissken: 2015-08-12 06:29:20 pm

jakeplissken: 2015-08-12 06:27:43 pm

2015-08-12 05:42:58 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Jenivere's AI is something special.

You can do it from any range, but it's easiest if you just press against the door and fire it into the corner. But that defeats the point, right? I tried using crates, plates, and bottles, but I couldn't get them to work either with tossing or dropping.

SocratesJohnson

2015-08-12 06:31:39 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Nice! I didn't want to try it just because Lot is a dick. Tongue

jakeplissken

2015-08-13 12:10:58 am

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

All that testing gave me an idea. Grin

New strats are both fast and stylish - but it took a bit of grinding to get this consistent. I could knock off about 4 seconds with perfect RNG but trying to PB this mission requires so many attempts that it just becomes frustrating.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2015-08-13 01:12:22 pm

2015-08-13 01:10:59 pm

jake: couldn't you have hopped the railing down the gallery into the lobby at 2:05? Otherwise that looks pretty nice!

Does the arrow thing not save time on Running Interference then?

Hazzmat: Maybe you could get the guards in mission 1 to open the door to the yard for you, because they're gonna deaggro by the time you get there but maybe they'll leave the door open.

socrates: You're just sour cause you're getting obsoleted one mission at a time. I foresee a very bleak future for you.

jakeplissken

2015-08-13 04:19:41 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Yeah, it's faster to hop over the ledge but it's slower if you happen to fall behind the stairs. At that point I was preoccupied with hoping that the gate was open. Also I think that hopping over the table at 1:55 is faster than running around but I forgot about that. I don't think the arrow on Running Interference can save time on the version I have installed (1.21). Although you can trigger the door from as far away as you can physically see it with the proper aim, the only guard with broadheads on his person is the guard who's patrolling the front courtyard, and it takes about 5 minutes to get them from him. You have to knock him out or pickpocket them from him, and he's patrolling around a well-lit area on marble so it requires plenty of setup. Unless there's another version where the earlier guards have broadheads in their quiver, it doesn't save time, but now the trick does have application in Blackmail of course.

LotBlind

2015-08-14 10:16:00 am

Okay, I should have been more clear... You should have the archer patrolling the corridor next to the Jenivere one SHOOT an arrow, dodge it and collect it off wherever it landed (they will definitely stick to wooden surfaces), and use that arrow on the door.

What kinds of times can you get if you just hop over the fence at the start and do whatever you need to to enter by the courtyard entrance?

SocratesJohnson

Edit history:

SocratesJohnson: 2015-08-14 02:38:44 pm

2015-08-14 02:38:20 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

The courtyard entrance is locked, but a key can be pickpocketed by one of the guards in front of the door. More often than not, you get tagged with several arrows on your way to Jenivere's door. When you alert Jenivere, her AI seems to be broken, and just walks around investigating the noise, probably because the butler's door wasn't opened, which she most likely doesn't have the key for, and the key is on the opposite side of the door, so you'd have to go all the way back around and out while dodging arrows again.

I tried that way when messing around with Hard difficulty, but it's just not a good idea. Sad

Exiting via the front on Hard is worthwhile, since you pick the key from the guard at the top of the dumbwaiter, but exiting that way doesn't save any time on Normal.