Thief 2: The Metal Age

2014-12-03 12:14:03 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Mostly curiosity, and to see exactly what the differences are between the levels and physics. If you want to, go nuts, if not, oh well. Tongue

LotBlind

2014-12-03 12:18:59 pm

Actually I kinda like the idea but I don't see how it's relevant to you unless you're thinking of switching to 1.18.. Anyway I was gonna do it at some point anyway, also out of curiosity. I'm gonna start listing the differences, which will help a lot with choosing your speed run versions and getting the big picture.

SocratesJohnson

2014-12-03 12:28:49 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I'm thinking of trying to get an old laptop from work and shoving XP on it (you said 1.07 works on that, right?) and taking a stab myself. A friend of mine gave me his old Win98SE box some months ago, but I have absolutely no space to put it, and I really don't want to try finding an old keyboard with AT/XT. Mostly, I just want to shave that minute off of First City Bank and Trust, and keyhole in Sabotage, making sub 60 a very doable reality, instead of a very tight one to accomplish. Tongue

Also, have you tried the sword/blackjack levitating thing Xmodule999 does in Thief: Gold? I've seen a video of Framed using that to get over the gate, but I don't know if he loaded that mission into the Thief: Gold game and is playing it on there or if he's on 1.07 Thief 2.

LotBlind

2014-12-03 12:35:25 pm

1.07 and 1.18 work on XP, yes. I can't directly install the game off the CD onto my Win 8 though... so you've been running GOG right? And that was already patched to something beyond 1.18? I'm gonna try a few more things but I think I've heard this is impossible. I would have liked to have the two versions on a different PC for convenience but we'll see.

The sword levitation doesn't work in any versions of T2 to my knowledge, or maybe it does in the demo but that doesn't count. That guy's a bitch to decipher though...

SocratesJohnson

2014-12-03 12:42:37 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Yeah, I think the demo was on the old Thief: The Dark Project engine. I have the Steam version, which is the same as GoG, and I think it's 1.18 + ddfix, now that I think about it. Not sure if that constitutes as 1.19, but, whatever.

I know, at least with the Steam/GoG version, that you can just copy the install files to a new location and run it, which is how I put it on my Win 8 laptop instead of installing from Steam.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2014-12-03 03:30:02 pm

2014-12-03 02:06:39 pm

I'm pretty sure Steam/GoG is already patched: if you open "panel.exe" that shows you options like install game, install directx etc. does it show the version in it? Besides I just tried that method but it won't run on 8 as I thought. I simply don't think there's a way of making it run on a modern PC without having to apply more patches... Well anyway I've got the patched copy on the XP now.

Ran into the notes for the 1.18 patch. They're in the wiki down the bottom of the main page under "version differences" now. I doubt there were any mission-affecting changes in 1.19 or 1.21 (except stuff that was clearly misplaced etc.) so if you had a speed potion in 1.21 I expect that to have been there for 1.18 too.

SocratesJohnson

2014-12-04 05:08:37 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

So I got a 2:01 in Ambush!, but wasn't recording. I'll get a video up some time soon.

It took me a while to figure out where you were talking about, but yeah, a tiny piece of wood to shoot a rope into and jump off. A moving rope shot at the end is doable, if you aim high, almost at the bottom of your sights, to save some time. Also, the gate doesn't need to be open, I just drop down diagonally over it and I get the ding. Nice find, Lot! I've been OOB in Ambush! a lot, looking for a way to utilize it, but could never come up with anything. I guess that's where you come in, though. Cheesy

No luck on new strats for Casing. Even if I shoot the noisemaker arrow earlier, it takes more time, since I don't think the guards are activated until a you're a certain distance away, even though the noisemaker was well within earshot. The other method was just bad.

I've also been able to get OOB in Eavesdropping, but that didn't help skipping the conversation, or really anything, heh. I was able to get on the roof of where the conversation happens and trigger it right at the edge, but yeah, still fails with a tiny step out of range.

So I got a 2:01 in Ambush!, but wasn't recording.  I'll get a video up some time soon.

It took me a while to figure out where you were talking about, but yeah, a tiny piece of wood to shoot a rope into and jump off.  A moving rope shot at the end is doable, if you aim high, almost at the bottom of your sights, to save some time.  Also, the gate doesn't need to be open, I just drop down diagonally over it and I get the ding.  Nice find, Lot!  I've been OOB in Ambush! a lot, looking for a way to utilize it, but could never come up with anything.  I guess that's where you come in, though. :D

No luck on new strats for Casing.  Even if I shoot the noisemaker arrow earlier, it takes more time, since I don't think the guards are activated until a you're a certain distance away, even though the noisemaker was well within earshot.  The other method was just bad.

I've also been able to get OOB in Eavesdropping, but that didn't help skipping the conversation, or really anything, heh.  I was able to get on the roof of where the conversation happens and trigger it right at the edge, but yeah, still fails with a tiny step out of range.

SocratesJohnson

2014-12-04 11:54:13 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Screw a time of 2:01, I got a 1:58 right here.

LotBlind

2014-12-05 11:34:47 am

I have my brightness set to max the whole time now so I can see all those details... especially with wooden textures. It's a bit weird because for some reason any screenshots I take still have the default brightness i.e. can't see a thing in wholly dark areas.

Did you test both variations on Ambush, the cemetery roof one too (the spot is to your right at 1:27 I think)? The piece of wood you're talking about is the frames of both the windows. For some reason I thought you couldn't jump high enough if you placed the arrow where you put it but I expect what you did was the best.

Do speed arrows make you climb any faster? It would be great if you could time using it so it wears out just as you make the big leap off the OOB roof. Not just in this mission ofc. Oh well you've probably thought about this stuff.

LotBlind

2014-12-06 12:33:35 pm

So I can confirm that you can cross an indeterminate chasm using item hopping. You just drop the item down and maybe a little bit in front of you as you're falling down and you'll get lodged inside it. Then you can jump off it. If you manage to pick up and drop the same item the whole time, you can even get by with just 2 items allowing lodging to take place.

The snag? It's pretty tough to pull off. Looking like a segmented or IL trick so far. But I'm sure we'll get better at it...

I also noticed something interesting: you can start mantling, turn around, and you'll end up mantling in the wrong direction. Wonder if this could have uses.

I'm definitely gonna finish Ambushed in 1.07 and I dunno for sure if I wanna start meddling with 1.18 just yet.

Deep crouching: I noticed you can get deeper inside a small crawlspace if you crouch to get as deep as you can, then just make sure you're hugging a wall and you can strafe even deeper inside. I kinda used this for something (to get off one rooftop onto another) but maybe there's a really small crawlspace somewhere waiting to be crouched into.

So I can confirm that you can cross an indeterminate chasm using item hopping. You just drop the item down and maybe a little bit in front of you as you're falling down and you'll get lodged inside it. Then you can jump off it. If you manage to pick up and drop the same item the whole time, you can even get by with just 2 items allowing lodging to take place.

The snag? It's pretty tough to pull off. Looking like a segmented or IL trick so far. But I'm sure we'll get better at it...

I also noticed something interesting: you can start mantling, turn around, and you'll end up mantling in the wrong direction. Wonder if this could have uses.

I'm definitely gonna finish Ambushed in 1.07 and I dunno for sure if I wanna start meddling with 1.18 just yet.

Deep crouching: I noticed you can get deeper inside a small crawlspace if you crouch to get as deep as you can, then just make sure you're hugging a wall and you can strafe even deeper inside. I kinda used this for something (to get off one rooftop onto another) but maybe there's a really small crawlspace somewhere waiting to be crouched into.

LotBlind

2014-12-16 03:05:33 pm

So here's another way to get up on the rooftops that's basically the last thing I could find on Ambushed:

The first pic shows the spot I'm looking at (cursor points at it):

The second and third show you spots alternatives of where to put your arrow. The first one requires a mantle up on the roof and another mantle right away onto the roof that has the flat rim. The second one just directly climb the tower.

The first one can be done from the south side of the building if it's any faster. Anyway just wanted to point them out. I doubt you'll save more time than by OOBing but give them a shot won't you!?

With that, having climbed more or less every single rooftop (and finding a very elusive last purse to get max loot) I'm off to Eavesdropping! However, it might take a bit now cause I have another thing I promised to look at first.

LotBlind

2015-04-11 11:50:04 am

In Eavesdropping I noticed if you lock yourself in the corpse pit secret and jump up and down a lot while having horizontal speed you'll sometimes glitch through the slab for a split-second. This allows you to hit the lever again to free yourself. I'm mentioning this because of potential for finding an actual use for this somewhere. I don't know if it's that it's so thin or that it's different somehow from normal floors (an object?). Maybe normal floors are always a lot thicker.

Otherwise I'm finished with it now I think.

SocratesJohnson

2015-04-16 01:04:49 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Maybe that can help in the bank, maybe being able to clip through the grate over the vault locking mechanism? I know I've tried to do that before, but didn't really give a strong effort.

LotBlind

2015-04-17 12:10:01 pm

You can't completely clip through anything that easily. I don't remember how the mechanism looks so I'll take a look but I don't really understand what you mean. You mean from the top down?

LotBlind

2015-04-18 02:05:31 pm

Hmm... In the bank mission looks like you don't have to open the safety box to be able to grab the recording. Does that save any time?

I managed to drop a crate through a floor above. I found it on the floor right above where it happened. I was really close to the ceiling when I did it. Also worked with a scouting orb and a flash bomb. I smell schenanigans if nothing else. Can't do it with flares or mines or other smaller items so far.

Dude, unless your version has different puzzle mechanics, your solution to the vault door lock puzzle isn't optimal. You can do that in 3... *failface* Or then you've screwed it up in both the runs I checked. I can't glitch through the grate to get to the vault door, I can open it from below but that's it. I can only drop crates through it suggesting it's thicker than the other ceiling. Hmm... I'll try some more later but I'm doubtful.

SocratesJohnson

2015-04-20 01:55:55 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Yeah, I came up with a different method for opening the vault lock that was at least 1 click faster, but have since forgotten it and defaulted to what I have burned into my brain. I'll be revisiting it, though, and will look for that 3 click open. I don't think it would be any faster to grab the recording without opening the door, but I can give it a shot and see what it entails. If done right, I can see maybe half a second saved without having to pause for the door to open so it doesn't hit you. I was also thinking of taking the side path in the basement to get to the vault lock, but I've only taken it BACK from the lock when there are the sentinels blocking the path, and been pretty lucky with the little robots staying out of my way.

LotBlind

2015-04-21 01:21:33 pm

I noticed you can detonate mines by throwing things at them... including other mines. Maybe a fire arrow could be saved somewhere? Or not having to take the slow-down from priming the bow. With the fire arrow you don't have to wait for the mines to be armed though.

I can't even get close to glitching through the grate.

Do you have a speed potion in the room above the room you enter the vault through? Might it be less than 9 seconds out of the way?

SocratesJohnson

2015-04-21 02:59:28 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I just gave the speed potion a shot, and it's about 2 seconds slower than just running out. I also got the 3 button push combo memorized (for now).

As for the mine detonation, I think there are only 3 places where a mine is used to open a door; one time at the bank, and twice on Kidnap.

Bank would not be ideal, since you're started close to the door, and the mine wouldn't be activated before you got to the door anyway. The first one in Kidnap would be like the bank, where you're too close to the door once you get the right angle on the door for it to catch the mine. The second time on Kidnap might work, which I'll have to try, but those mines can take a while to activate, so I'm leaning more towards it not being faster for it.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2015-04-21 06:57:49 pm

LotBlind: 2015-04-21 06:56:32 pm

2015-04-21 06:50:11 pm

There's another exit upstairs (from the balcony) but it's locked with the brown-hued key in the office in the SW corner. Unless you could force it open quicky.

Are you sure if you instantly throw the mine in a high arc towards the door as you round the corner, wait for it to almost have become active, then lob the second mine at it that wouldn't detonate it? You could run at full speed towards the door in the meantime. Did you try running up the stairs for the speed potion, then going through the 2nd floor door into the room marked "dome" on the map and hopping down, then making your way to the door?

WORK HARDER TO REALIZE MY AMBITIONS GOD DAMN IT!

Hmm... You realize you don't need to hit the three buttons in any specific order? They always do the same thing. I call you're being sarcastic about having trouble remembering it. Smiley

I guess technically the fastest is bottom right first, then mid right, then mid left just because maybe you're gonna be able to see the right column slightly earlier.

There's another exit upstairs (from the balcony) but it's locked with the brown-hued key in the office in the SW corner. Unless you could force it open quicky.

Are you sure if you instantly throw the mine in a high arc towards the door as you round the corner, wait for it to almost have become active, then lob the second mine at it that wouldn't detonate it? You could run at full speed towards the door in the meantime. Did you try running up the stairs for the speed potion, then going through the 2nd floor door into the room marked "dome" on the map and hopping down, then making your way to the door?

WORK HARDER TO REALIZE MY AMBITIONS GOD DAMN IT!

Hmm... You realize you don't need to hit the three buttons in any specific order? They always do the same thing. I call you're being sarcastic about having trouble remembering it. :) I guess technically the fastest is bottom right first, then mid right, then mid left just because maybe you're gonna be able to see the right column slightly earlier.

SocratesJohnson

2015-04-21 07:04:57 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

I found the key behind a glass window where I needed to jump and smash with the blackjack, and the doors it opened didn't lead to a speedy exit. The fastest I did find was going through the dome, and that one was 2 seconds slower than just heading to the exit.

I've had that button combo I use ingrained in my memory from way back, so it was more of a convenience thing. But now that I know the 3 button combo, it's pretty easy to remember.

SO YES, I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR ROUTES WITH YOUR SHIT!!! Tongue

I wish the speed potion gave more time, but there aren't any better routes to the exit from there.

LotBlind

2015-04-22 11:27:20 am

Umm... Carry on soldier?

There's a lamp on the second floor of the bank (SE in the locked office of one of the managers, the guy is inside and there's a convo between him and a guard when you approach the area) that made me glitch into the wall a little ways when I messed about with a rope arrow next to it. I escaped by similar means. It's probably the same kinda stuff that made me able to glitch through the door earlier on Ambushed so keep an eye out for objects near thin walls and windows!

Speaking of windows I managed to throw a flash bomb through one even as orbs were getting stopped.

Also, more importantly, SPID in Russian means AIDS and I just realized whenever you say "speed potion" it kinda sounds like you're saying "What if I drink the AIDS potion first?".

LotBlind

2015-04-26 01:56:59 pm

Is this also something you tried: getting the speed potion, running to the room to the East, hopping across the gap onto the other walkway to the N, blowing open the balcony doors and escaping through there? Unfortunately the key isn't the one the guards are carrying or even the brass one.

EDIT: Dude I got something for you now... I conjectured maybe the game counts you as out if you reach the roof. It turns out it does. IT EVEN WORKS IF YOU ROPE THE CEILING OF THE DOME AND CLIMB UP SOME WAYS. It wants you to go kinda towards the middle of the dome but I managed to jump inside the zone off a rope attached to the wall on the lower entrance side.

LotBlind Speedrunning Solutions thanks you for your cooperation.

I can't seem to jump high enough off the back of the mech patrolling thereabouts even when slow-falling (and the potion is elsewhere anyway) so I guess ropes it is for you. The speed potion does make climbing faster but maybe not worth it?

SocratesJohnson

2015-04-30 07:25:22 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Rope arrow in the dome on Bank can save at least a second. If I go back and got/used the speed potion, it wasted about 2 seconds, but definitely shooting an arrow quickly into the closest spot of the dome works.
Also for Bank, I've been mantling over the crates in the basement that are there in the first room - gotta move a smaller one out of the way as you climb, but doing that on the way to and from the lock saves maybe 4 or 5 seconds at the most without error.

I've also been playing around with hard mode since yesterday, and came up with a couple routes for Running Interference.

Running Interference Route 1:

More consistent than the second route, and can be used either with, or without, the speed potion to get the same time. A second can probably still be saved on this route, due to my poor pathing after using the speed potion.

Running Interference Route 2:

This relies on being able to steal the key from the guard at the top of the dumbwaiter, which can either go smoothly, or not so smoothly. Since it's the first mission, if I'm going for PBs, I'd use this one anyway.

Rope arrow in the dome on Bank can save at least a second.  If I go back and got/used the speed potion, it wasted about 2 seconds, but definitely shooting an arrow quickly into the closest spot of the dome works.
Also for Bank, I've been mantling over the crates in the basement that are there in the first room - gotta move a smaller one out of the way as you climb, but doing that on the way to and from the lock saves maybe 4 or 5 seconds at the most without error.

I've also been playing around with hard mode since yesterday, and came up with a couple routes for Running Interference.

Running Interference Route 1:

More consistent than the second route, and can be used either with, or without, the speed potion to get the same time.  A second can probably still be saved on this route, due to my poor pathing after using the speed potion.

[hidden]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7f22pjBv7U[/hidden]

Running Interference Route 2:

This relies on being able to steal the key from the guard at the top of the dumbwaiter, which can either go smoothly, or not so smoothly.  Since it's the first mission, if I'm going for PBs, I'd use this one anyway.

[hidden]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3nJAWML_Y[/hidden]

LotBlind

2015-05-17 11:05:18 am

Socrates you fool! Did you forget about our meeting?

SocratesJohnson

2015-05-19 10:20:44 am

Always move forward, never sleep.

Sorry dude, work has been fucked up lately, and I had to work this past weekend, which pissed me off. It SHOULD calm down June 1, if you'd like to reschedule for sometime then.