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Always move forward, never sleep.
Welcome back.  Yeah, people still don't give a shit about Thief 2, apparently. Cheesy
It's a niche game or then we just don't have the right people around. Such arguments are very unlikely to attract outside arbiters because of the commitment involved.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-05-08 11:46:27 am
Did you ever try to see what happens with the gate on Blackmail if you just block it with something? I noticed some portcullises just stop descending if they hit something but maybe it gets sent back up instead by some chance? If you had a few crates you could technically at least prevent it from being able to lower too far. Items also work for that (not scouting orbs though).

If you ever need to fight NPCs or destroy something using arrows, shouldn't you be charging forwards right before releasing to make it have the maximum velocity and hence damage? I know this works for crates damaging explosive barrels and we know it works for quarrels.
Always move forward, never sleep.
I haven't had time to do much of anything lately. Sad

If the target is an unaware enemy, then a standing max draw will kill them outright.  If they are aware of you, then yeah, a forward moving shot would do more damage.  The only person I kill with an arrow is the gear guard in Blackmail, so it would depend on when I get there to see if I can move forward and shoot before getting to the table, or if I have to stand and shoot.  It's easier to stand and shoot if I get there earlier, so that I can jump right onto the table instead of mantling onto it.
Always move forward, never sleep.
So I was talking to a buddy of mine at the bar I frequent, and we got onto the subject of Windows operating systems.  Turns out, the guy still had an old Win 98 box in his basement, and I offered to take it off of his hands.  Today, I have the machine, but I have yet to find out if it works or not.  If it does, I'm going to play around with Thief 2 on it, and hopefully get an IL table to submit to the site (I'm looking at you, First City Bank and Trust).  If it doesn't, at least I gave it a shot. Tongue

I haven't done a run in a long time, and I need/want to get back into the groove.  I still want to get sub 60 IGT without restarts, which is doable with new strats (thanks Lot for some).  I think/hope soon enough I'll have the time and mood to run, without work getting in the way.
Why do you need Win 98? You mean so you can run any version? Are you gonna try 1.07.

Here's a few ways to entertain yourself on Framed (in 1.07):
-get on the perimeter fence around the police station and walk across to the side entrance side. Keep your eyes on the moat.
-as you're making your exit, flip the gate switch on the control board near the side exit to make it more realistic.
-if you walk into the area in front of the glasses with the view inside the vault ante-chamber, Garrett will utter one of his lines out of the blue. No idea what it's supposed to be referring to.
-the female guard in the interrogation room will sometimes put on a male guard voice... I'm fairly sure it's her. Also you can have a sword fight with her through the door.

You can get stuck in a lean by just activating it and choking the keyboard's ability to send the release command by depressing some other buttons before releasing your lean bind. Could this help getting some kind of trick to work?

In 1.07 rope arrows get caught on any surface, the rope just isn't sprung unless it's actually valid.
If you attach two ropes right next to each other, you have the chance to get a fast climb by grabbing onto one and spamming space. I think it works best if there's a wall you're climbing against. Didn't test this too much yet.

Also I realized if you elevated yourself temporarily, either by just jumping or stacking something below your feet, this might just allow a rope arrow shot/something else that you couldn't do without it. A long shot (pun not intended).

Finished Framed now in my playaround...
Always move forward, never sleep.
I'll try to find somewhere that double ropes could benefit - nothing springs to mind at the moment.  I've been trying to optimize Trail of Blood, since I realized there's an easy to get speed potion up the spiral stairs after the plumsy-taker.  So far, not able to beat my 3:18, but got close with a 3:19, so maybe with better execution (that face is still weird to climb on sometimes) I could drop it by one or two seconds.

Otherwise, I'm gonna make an effort to get back into the swing of things, practice the new strats on Framed, Casing the Joint, and Masks so I can easily integrate them into a full run and hopefully get under 60 minutes.  Time is something I still don't have a ton of right now. Sad
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-10-20 11:43:36 am
LotBlind: 2014-10-20 11:35:57 am
I'm slowly going forwards with my 1.07 playthrough... still in Ambushed at current.

There's a way to get the Thief 1 SHAS boost or whatever they call it in this game... just place a rope arrow so the rope passes near a solid object [other than a wall], climb up to the object and turn around. You'll sometimes be sent up or down the rope but under the right conditions you'll get a massive speed boost instead.

I'm trying to glitch through a door using the same technique (just have a rope hanging next to it) but I can't if the door is fully closed. Only if there's a tiny crack available. But you could conceivably pass through a crack like that then, if there ever is one. I swear I've seen a guide once for how to glitch through a door but that may have been for T1. Not sure anymore. I did manage to get stuck inside a door but that, too, was with an open one and secondly I couldn't glitch back out again.

I've had this idea for a while: Why couldn't you do a fully segmented run where you take advantage of the speed potion glitch in every mission that has one? Some missions would be nothing but luck manipulation and perfecting execution though. Might allow for risky things like the rope boost I mentioned. Haven't we established the potion glitch happens when you save and load on the frame the effect was about to expire? Mightn't that work for other potions too? Perma-invis?
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-10-24 02:17:47 pm
More updates: I managed to actually glitch through a completely closed door this time in two steps. Fire the arrow so the rope is close to it, make it swing and jump when you're inside the door. Afterwards it takes a bit of jumping to get out of it, I found the easiest way to exit is the hinge side but that may not be relevant after all.

I also noticed another way to get a boost: if you stand underneath the sliding hidden compartment panel in your apartment, make it fall down while you're crouching, then when it's below your head level, send it back up again and stand up when it's above. It'll start ascending really slowly from there on. You can't move but if you lean in any direction, you get rapidly ejected that way. Obviously not useful in that spot but... maybe somewhere else?
And bump for more things I found...

So I noticed you can elevator (1.07) using foodstuffs. If you have 2 you can just drop one of them directly downwards and you'll get higher when jumping. If you have 3, you can drop a second one directly above you and then start jumping to get even higher. With more than that you're able to gain a bit more height with each one. In that case you'd spam drop and jump while facing upwards as you climb.

Now to find a supplier... I also noticed you might be able to mantle into stuff if you mantle up something and it's directly in the space you end up in. At least observed to work with a portcullis in the Marketplace quarter in Ambush!. Also noticed you can just run up the big barrels (I never noticed that before).

Added this stuff and other small things into the database.
Question - is there another site/location for all the speedrun details LotBlind?

I previously thought to myself I will never SR Thief 2 as I didn't want to 'ruin the game' but that may change :). I have played this game that many times the routing itself shouldn't be too difficult.
You're in the right place my friend! Cheesy

https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Thief_2:_The_Metal_Age

check the category definitions and the section with game mechanics and glitches. It should have everything anyone has found. Decide on the category you wanna do. Only Any% SS and Any% ILs (both on Normal) have really been done so far. Here's Socrates' SS run: http://speeddemosarchive.com/Thief2.html

Also here's a link to his YT where you need to ignore all the non-Thief bs and concentrate on his ILs and things: https://www.youtube.com/user/Diopter
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-11-19 12:31:43 pm
LotBlind: 2014-11-19 12:17:42 pm
I'm not sure what the best technique for [food] elevatoring (I presume the things I'm doing with food is the same basic technique as with scout orbs and flares) is. It kinda feels like it's more consistent if you do what I said in my last post but it might not be necessary to drop one down after all. In any case someone should test and see if it's not just v. 1.07 that lets you do this. I think it shouldn't be.

If you have just 2, I'm thinking dropping the item facing down is possibly better so you don't have to wait for it to land. It should still give you at least some height if not the same.

Hmm... NOW it saved my changes to the tricks page.

EDIT 1: Okay, so using similar items for breaking your fall is also possible, replacing those slow-fall potions. May also be able to get boosts off them (sideways) or maybe even being able to jump slightly further than normal.

EDIT 2: I found that you can use the trick above and sometimes you can stop your motion in mid-air and change directions, sorta jumping off the stack of food that's hovering there with you. So essentially elevatoring from mid-air. This could be handy if you needed to jump into an alcove that's in the direction you're jumping off from.
Always move forward, never sleep.
I've seen Xmodule999 use some of those, "break your fall," tricks with mines in some places for his Thief Gold runs, but can't think of any particular place for Thief 2 to use them where a frogbeast egg isn't readily available, but a place might just show up eventually.  Maybe a boost over the chasm in Trail of Blood to avoid mantling?

Covert, I hope you pick this game up!  Definitely check the KB article that Lot guy mentioned.  Otherwise, the only other place besides my channel *cough* link *cough* would be Poesta's channel for some additional routing, but some might be outdated.  Some clips cannot be achieved on later versions of New Dark, but I don't know about the first New Dark patch.

Also, hey Lot! *insert older comments of me not running in a long time and need to practice* I am reading your responses about your 1.07 work, though, and glad to see you keeping it up.  Whenever I had streamed recently, I've been trying for sub 60, and Eavesdropping has been a thorn for that if the key isn't in a good location, otherwise it's a lot of me sucking and Casing the Joint being a troll, or the frogbeasts on Masks.  Jumping the gate on Framed, however, is getting pretty consistent.
I will likely pick this up and start running it over a longer period of time. Have a few other games taking priority but this will be a nice fall-back game when I need a break from the others.

First question - I still have my old discs, from what I have read the only way to play these as 1.07 is to have a windows 98 install. Is this correct?

Also is there any other difference between the other versions. I have the GOG version of the game, and the GOG version has a 'universal update'. I assume this will be very similar to other modern versions.
Edit history:
SocratesJohnson: 2014-11-19 04:04:27 pm
SocratesJohnson: 2014-11-19 04:00:42 pm
Always move forward, never sleep.
The universal update is probably the same as the Steam version, which is the first New Dark patch (1.18 or .19, can't remember).  I'm running on 1.21, but there seems to be a 1.22 patch out there as of September 22.  Luckily with these patches, though, you can set custom resolutions, which is nice if you have a widescreen monitor so the aspect ratio isn't all jacked up.  The only issue I've run into with patching, though, is that on my home PC, and my personal laptop, I'm able to play it just fine, and break open doors.  On my work laptop, while the game plays and runs fine, I can't blow open doors with fire arrows for whatever reason, and it's using the same patch.  I either applied it wrong, or something with the hardware it doesn't like, but, whatever.

Here's a link to the patch: http://www.saleck.net/creations/gamefixguides/thief2.ph

As for 1.07, I think either an actual machine with Win98 or maybe Windows XP will work; I just know a virtual machine will not run it, unfortunately, since it takes a lot of tweaking to get the first mission to load, and when it does, it crashes to desktop after showing a ton of rainbow artifacts.  What I haven't tried is making a virtual app for it in the built in Windows virtual PC, and running it through that instead of on the actual VM.  I might have to give that a try some time, but not really keen on dealing with that shit right now. Tongue

And, of course, if you have any questions about getting tricks down, routing, or whatever, just toss a question out and we'll give you a hand. Smiley
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-11-19 04:47:08 pm
1.07: I can tell you XP works... I happen to have an older XP machine so I can play it straight off the disc. Otherwise no idea what you have to do. It's a bother with all these different versions. Technically the one you've been running Socrates isn't really eligible for SDA but it's SAD if nobody can run the game...

1.19 was a fan patch wasn't it? I dunno what version GoG currently sells you. What about 1.21 or .22? They're unofficial right? The two reasons running them might be an issue is a) it's unofficial and b) if you're gonna patch your game it might keep changing and we might all end up running different versions. For SDA there should be just two versions: the fastest (legacy) version and the newest official one. Any of those new patches become official if Steam or GoG pick them up ofc.

Socrates: so it works with mines too? If we think outside the scope of just the any% Normal runs I'm sure it can have uses. Wouldn't you agree it would also make my take on low% one step more feasible? It doesn't seem too hard to cancel all fall damage if you manage to have found maybe 3-5 loaves of bread or something like that. You could perhaps even buy some extra flares with excess money just for that purpose. Soulforge should look quite different then.

I think someone should check to see if the tricks I've found are the same in 1.18 and if they AREN'T, you might wanna consider setting up your 1.07 Covert, because there's a high chance you'll be able to produce some run or other that you couldn't have done in later revisions. Furthermore as the years roll by it's not gonna get any easier to do that. The fastest version (which I presume it is) is, after all, the default choice for speedrunning. The only reason this game will have multiple version runs is the compatibility stuff.

PS If one does the VirtualPC stuff (I haven't got a clue how that works) would it be good for SDA? It might just be if that's the only way to make it run on a modern PC.
There is a few possible issues with the Virtual PC. Because you are running a computer, from a computer, there is often an associated inefficiency of processing which leads to it becoming a bit laggy or glitchy. This is worst when doing graphical intensive tasks and will reflect as dropping frames. So if you can get it set up 100% & prove that it is 100% then there shouldnt be an issue.

Secondly you need to record the run. This may further impact on the performance depending on if you are running Fraps, or another program, on the virtual PC or on the Host PC. Again, if you can set it up 100%, and prove that you are not losing frames then you dont have a problem.

Of course, I suspect this is all very difficult to achieve based upon what SJ said about his experiences.
Always move forward, never sleep.
New strats on Casing; a bit slower, but much more consistent.  There is still some tweaking to be done to try to get it faster.  I just don't like how the faster way is too random, and will fail the majority of the time and losing the whole run.  It's still useful for ILs (if I ever get around to them) but in a SS run, I'd rather use this new route.

Casing the Joint - 1:17


Description:
New, safer, slower, but more consistent strats on Casing the Joint.  While not as fast as my 1:11 with the riskier strats, it's definitely more consistent, and I'm hoping I can tweak it some more to try and get the guards moving sooner.  I'm going to play around with the noisemaker arrow at different intervals and see what happens.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-12-03 11:37:41 am
LotBlind: 2014-12-03 10:49:15 am
LotBlind: 2014-12-03 10:45:23 am
Ha! I was gonna update too.

I can confirm that you can do a longer jump than normal by spamming stuff underneath you as you're falling. This helped me cross a gap between two roofs (still in Ambushed). In case you've never parkoured around enough, I'll tell you the rooftops are slippery and you can't actually jump off a surface with no friction. I've been able to get on most of the rooftops in that mission now... really looking forward to messing around with this in the other missions too. I'm getting better at elevatoring to heights.

Meanwhile I wanted to raise this question: why couldn't someone do a segmented run of the game? (a continuous one not ILs) It would make sense because if you can do all the most difficult strats and even get potion glitches (did anyone try slowfall glitching?) every time you've obtained a speed potion, it'd change the run COMPLETELY. And you couldn't really pull it off without segmenting, obviously. So I think it's warranted. Just to get that out there.

Hang on, looks like you've been elevatoring like crazy in Casing for a while now. So anything new I've added is perhaps just that you can do it with different items. If you can do it with flares, those would be the cheapest of the lot. I like the new way of doing that BTW. It looks pretty elegant in the way you're dodging the guards just barely.

You could save a little time by throwing the crate and hoping you can jump on top of it neatly enough. Also, won't full health prevent you from dying to the drop out the window? So you could just Rambo it? Or if you had a couple of flares you could soften the drop enough to prevent getting hurt. Unless that's different for your version.

EDIT:

Umm... Hey Socrates! I've got an early Christmas present for you! It looks like you could actually use my discoveries on Ambushed for something. When you're out your apartment window, turn left and run towards the end of the canal. There's a torch and a ladder right at the end. Above them there's a few windows in the building you ran next to. They have (at least my version has) wooden frames. DING! Rope up onto the bit with the crenelations and hop OOB towards the right.

Now from there you can either just run all the way around to the other end of the map, round the corner and you'll see a roof made of wood. Climbing up here will take you literally right next to the end gate. I've noticed you can activate the exit requirement either by opening the gate and walking through, or for some reason walking up to the other portcullis and walking back away from it works too but that's not gonna be faster here.

The second alternative is half-way across the OOB stretch you'll see some wood in the corner of a building to your right. If you rope it, you can access the graveyard area from here. However, you can also just mantle onto the roof on the left and continue that way. Now the thing is you'll find you can't cross the rooftop that comes after that because of an invisible wall so you'll need to have something like flares or food (the only food items I found were in a shop a few blocks to the S of Garrett's place, far on the W side, and the bakery near the exit itself) to set up a jump that actually allows you to mantle the other half of the troublesome rooftop. If you can do that, you can proceed onto the next one and do a long jump (again aided by items) to cross over to the exit zone area.

I just realized I saw you had a speed potion! My version doesn't have that but for you this second option might actually prove faster than the first because you can just save the potion for the last two long jumps and you won't have to go out the way for anything before... I don't know if you like these OOB strategies, it's the first time anything like that is used in most of Thief speedrunning... but hey it really saves a bit of time, so it seems after my coarse testing and comparing it with your latest run (you take about 54 seconds to get from the apartment to the exit trigger but that's with a speed potion so add 9 seconds, 1:03, and I managed to get a 1:01 after a few attempts at the former strategy).
Always move forward, never sleep.
Well, in 1.21, I played around with dropping stuff underneath me as I fall - doesn't seem to work, and mines just kill you. Tongue I've also been able to get out of bounds and on rooftops a lot in Ambush!, but there hasn't been an easy way to do it that's faster than the route.  I wish I could just jump the gate at the end of the mission, but gotta trigger that objective first.

As for a segmented run, I don't see it as a problem, as it could definitely be faster than my current run with the newer strats, I just don't want to. Tongue But anyone could take a stab at it.

What's the slowfall potion glitch?  I've only heard of the speed potion glitch that I just cannot replicate (happened once in Sabotage when I was screwing around).  I would love to know how to do it, but nothing so far, and no where on the internet is it explained either, except for, "yeah, that happened to me once before, too."

In Casing, I'm feeling like I'm not utilizing the speed potion well enough.  If I use it on the rafters, I have to wait for the dude to walk by before hitting the switch and it's wasted.  If I use it right as he passes (like in the video) it's not all used up by the time I get to the window, and the speed while jumping onto the ledge could toss me over.  I'm thinking of shooting a noise arrow right as I get into the building and hope it goes over the rafters and into that corner so they start moving sooner, and I can speed potion on the rafters, or hoping I could shoot a noisemaker before passing the guard in the room by the switch, and speed potion to the switch and out before he gets to the door and spots me.  Still have some practice to put in. Smiley

I've hit the ground and survived when I fell out of the window, and getting the objective complete ding, but I think the noise you make when hitting the ground spooks the guard on the other side of the doors at the bottom.  That's also why with these new strats I moss the tile under the exit window in case I don't grab onto it when I jump and kill the mission.  For whatever reason, weird sounding noise arrows are ok, but too much tile noise (which could be other guards for all they know, I mean, come on!) is a no-no. Sad So if a jump is landed on the tile, mission failed.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-12-03 11:49:59 am
you noticed my edit right?

slowfall potion glitch: just a projected version of the speed potion glitch that presumably will leave the slowfall effect active indefinitely. I haven't seen it either but why not? Haven't we established that the speed potion glitch probably happens when you save on the same frame when the effect is about to wear off? Which means you could do it after a lot of attempts in a segmented run... I haven't gotten to the point where I'm given any speed potions. Maybe next mission.

Casing: use the potion at the very start? Too bad you can't stop your fall with items in your lame version.

EDIT to the latter strategy I outlined in the last post:
Looks like you can just run towards the crest of the troublesome rooftop after getting a running start off the previous flat one, crouch at the last moment and slide under the invisible ceiling.
Always move forward, never sleep.
Just noticed your edit, after you pointed it out, hah!

I'll give that a try on Ambush!, thanks!  The only other time that OOB was used in a run was on Framed, but that strat has since been obsoleted, but I'm definitely down to give it a shot on Ambush!.

Casing: I think using the speed potion at the start would be under-utilizing it, as I'd get to the wall, and do the elevatoring while the effects were wearing off; not enough movement time to get the most use. Sad

Would you be able to do a parallel installation with an official version later than 1.07 to see if the speed potion is there in Ambush!?  From what I can remember, there are a ton of changes between 1.07 and other versions, and the no friction and sliding on OOB doesn't seem to be an issue, at least with my version.  Just knowing these differences I think would be useful/cool.
What version do you mean? 1.18? What do you need the information for?