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Edit history:
nmaster64: 2013-08-14 11:28:04 pm
nmaster64: 2013-08-14 11:28:02 pm
Quote from kirkq:
Nmaster64: In response to why “the SRL leaderboards?”  I was always under the impression it was going to be speedrunslive.com/leaderboards and the heading for the page would be “Speedrun Leaderboards” or simply “Leaderboards”.  Many of the people who will be using the site upon launch are already involved with SRL.  Many people who have interest in moderating the site are already involved with SRL.  As far as streaming goes, a good proportion of records that get beaten right now happen on the SRL streams page.  The front page of SRL features streamers and helps to spread popularity to runners.  Many viewers on twitch who watch speedruns frequent SRL to see what they want to watch.  From a design perspective it only makes sense to use this already existing source of viewers.  The assumption is that the goal of leaderboards is to spread and document the hobby, so getting people to the site should be a valid metric.  I largely agree with Graviton’s and Cosmo’s posts.  (This paragraph is a bit disconnected, but I hope it expresses the intent accurately.)

I have no qualms with this, I just brought it up because of how odd the first post struck me. The LBs always felt like an internal SRL project, but the OP made it sound like it was now more of a big community open-source project. So I felt it was only natural to question why it still needs to be under the SRL site and moniker. As much as I'd love to see some big utopian third-party leaderboard, at the end of the day if SRL is the one who's actually getting it done then that's what matters.


On the opt-out topic: I'll just add that I've had private discussions with a handful of people who also disagree with being forced onto the LBs, and who dislike SRL being behind the project in general (at least one of which holds a significant WR). While I don't necessarily agree with this feeling that you should be able to keep a public run off the leaderboards, I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to those who don't want to be forced onto it. But primarily I'm concerned w/ the few cases where they would actually hide or remove their runs purely to keep of the boards. That alone makes me consider trying to find an opt-out solution to please the minority.

Update: This later post by Inzult I think really reflects my feelings.

Quote from inzult:
If some big project like this is perceived as attempting to co-opt smaller communities and leaderboards that grew organically out of there not being a centralized leaderboard, it's not too surprising that people get upset. They might not even know why. They may want to stay out what they see as the other community altogether. This could mean ignoring it, or it might mean a runner not wanting their run listed at all. Of course, it seems to me like that isn't the goal of The LeaderBoard, and it's "just a list". But if the response is "oh well gotta keep the board accurate your run stays" then you run the risk of planting poisonous seeds inside those communities of runners, and alienating everyone. If this is acceptable collateral, then fine. But it is something to keep in mind regardless.

If someone really wants to run a centralized records keeping site, and some drama happens (which is really rare, I know, but stay with me here) with some runners and they actually do feel like they need to take their runs down in response, then it absolutely is the responsibility of the community at large. Obviously you don't choose what an individual does with their video, and if one gets taken down it's not because the community wanted it taken down. But I don't see how someone can build The Place To Go, intentionally not have something in place to alleviate problems, and wash their hands of what happens by just saying "hey, it's not our choice". Especially if there is no choice given.

It has nothing to do with respect, or who owns what, or the law or anything. It just has to do with perception, with people's feelings, with autonomy etc. If you try to use logic on a Mad Person, it won't work.

I don't know how people ought to go about solving these problems, and maybe there actually isn't a way. Unfortunately, for a lot of people, groups are coloured by their worst elements and I'm not sure you can change someone's mind if their problem just boils down to they don't like SRL. But being dismissive of the issues people have (which is even more rare than drama but hold on, I'm almost done) probably isn't the right way. I've seen a lot more LOL NOPE in this thread than I was expecting when I first clicked on it.

So yeah a lot of that doesn't have to do with what I quoted. I guess I'm rambling a bit.

\_o_/
Quote:
While I don't necessarily agree with this feeling that you should be able to keep a public run off the leaderboards, I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to those who don't want to be forced onto it. But primarily I'm concerned w/ the few cases where they would actually hide or remove their runs purely to keep of the boards. That alone makes me consider trying to find an opt-out solution to please the minority.


Damn, I've been trying to find a way to say this, and you managed to beat me to it. This is pretty much how I feel. I don't see why anyone would want their runs to not be part of a large-scale leaderboard, but I think that there should be some sort of choice.
Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^
Quote from sinister1:
Yes, exactly. You can choose to have your number not listed online, just like you can choose to have your vids private. If you do not make use of the privacy options that is your own fault.

A private (i.e. visible for nobody I don't give the link) video is slightly different from a publicly published number, where the only difference is who can find it. The paper phone book is still public, it only circulates less far.
Edit history:
MemoryTAS: 2013-08-14 12:56:27 pm
Quote from nmaster64:
On the opt-out topic: I'll just add that I've had private discussions with a handful of people who also disagree with being forced onto the LBs, and who dislike SRL being behind the project in general (at least one of which holds a significant WR). While I don't necessarily agree with this feeling that you should be able to keep a public run off the leaderboards, I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to those who don't want to be forced onto it. But primarily I'm concerned w/ the few cases where they would actually hide or remove their runs purely to keep of the boards. That alone makes me consider trying to find an opt-out solution to please the minority.

This basically is what I wanted to say.
Magical. Flying. Bathtub
I was going to write my personal thoughts on the issue but people keep articulating my opinions better than I ever good.

I do have a question on the whole "making your vid private to de-list it from Leaderboards" thing.  I thought making the vid private means requiring the YT URL to view the vid.  If the leaderboard already has the URL then does that mean that privatisation wouldn't achieve anything?  Or do you get a new URL when you go private?
Quote from RoboSparkle:
I was going to write my personal thoughts on the issue but people keep articulating my opinions better than I ever good.

I do have a question on the whole "making your vid private to de-list it from Leaderboards" thing.  I thought making the vid private means requiring the YT URL to view the vid.  If the leaderboard already has the URL then does that mean that privatisation wouldn't achieve anything?  Or do you get a new URL when you go private?

No, you're thinking of unlisted. Private means only you can watch it.
Magical. Flying. Bathtub
Ah cool. I've never really tried either.  But I like the point someone raised about unlisting old records so your channel isn't cluttered up.  I might go for that.
Magical. Flying. Bathtub
Also...
I'd hit that
Dunno if this has been asked but will there be universal mods and then mods for each game or just mods for each game?
Magical. Flying. Bathtub
Quote from TheFearowofTime:
Dunno if this has been asked but will there be universal mods and then mods for each game or just mods for each game?

I think the doc in the OP referenced multiple tiers of mods
Quote from RoboSparkle:
Quote from TheFearowofTime:
Dunno if this has been asked but will there be universal mods and then mods for each game or just mods for each game?

I think the doc in the OP referenced multiple tiers of mods

Tyvm
Get over here!
Quote from kirkq:
ShadowDraft: We’re well aware of the ridiculous scope of this.  Much of the community would be more than happy to help moderate.  Mods in the IRC chat will not be the same as leaderboard moderators.  IRC moderators and voices were largely established out of the need for IRC regulation and race recording.  A person in the position of voice if interested might get transferred into the “senior user” position, which might get renamed later.  Moderators will not be transferred over.  We might be having applications.  Hopefully we can form a committee so it actually is merit based and not friend based.  There is going to be perceptions of favoritism no matter how you do it.  A lot of SDA positions are given out based on what some could view as combined merit/favoritism and this site still functions well.  The amount of “General Moderators” and “Game Moderators” and “Senior users” will grow as the site grows, for sure, but you’re never going to be able to expect 24/7 customer service.  Flags don’t mean anything unless a moderator acts on them.  They basically get added to the queue and either cleared or the run taken down.


So you would allow "strangers" and newcomers like me in if there's enough reasons for it? And what would those reasons be?
I have no problem with established community members being promoted but it naturally gives off a biased feeling.

24/7 customer service will not be possible with such a large scale project. But I guess this may or may not make SRL forums mandatory because you could make a support forum which is a bit easier to handle timewise. I honestly fully support the forum idea even if it's a lot of work.

Anyways thank you for considering my opinion on this. It's not always a given.
sinister1
so pro u don't even know
Quote from Alko:
Quote from sinister1:
Yes, exactly. You can choose to have your number not listed online, just like you can choose to have your vids private. If you do not make use of the privacy options that is your own fault.

A private (i.e. visible for nobody I don't give the link) video is slightly different from a publicly published number, where the only difference is who can find it. The paper phone book is still public, it only circulates less far.

I am not going to argue semantics with you, and I feel like you are still missing my point. Let me be clear: Internet = public place with privacy options. If you don't use the privacy options available don't be upset/surprised when other people on the internet see what you put there.

Quote from MarioGalaxy2433g5:
If there were no positives, people would be saying that it is a bad idea altogether. They are focusing on the negative to improve it.

Trying to improve the negative is fine as I said in my post, just don't ignore the positive.
0-10
Quote from sinister1:
Overall, when looking at the big picture nothing is ever perfect and if the biggest "flaw" of the leaderboards is that there is no-opt out feature, I think that is pretty darn good.

I swear the complacency is getting out of hand. If I brought an angry mob of people to your house, and took everything with the justification that "it will benefit everyone!" then you won't be ok with it. YOU WILL HAVE A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH IT. I know someone will dismiss this analogy, but you know what? That's the side you guys just AREN'T GETTING. The approach is "we'll get what we want, fuck the rest." It's not a matter of pleasing everyone. You are removing choice, and effectively making them slaves into your system. It's very simple, if they don't want to be a part of it, who are you to decide otherwise?
Edit history:
RoboSparkle: 2013-08-14 01:27:14 pm
Magical. Flying. Bathtub
We are seriously in danger of getting a visit from the Analogy Police.
hello
Quote from Lenophis:
Quote from sinister1:
Overall, when looking at the big picture nothing is ever perfect and if the biggest "flaw" of the leaderboards is that there is no-opt out feature, I think that is pretty darn good.

I swear the complacency is getting out of hand. If I brought an angry mob of people to your house, and took everything with the justification that "it will benefit everyone!" then you won't be ok with it. YOU WILL HAVE A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH IT. I know someone will dismiss this analogy, but you know what? That's the side you guys just AREN'T GETTING. The approach is "we'll get what we want, fuck the rest." It's not a matter of pleasing everyone. You are removing choice, and effectively making them slaves into your system. It's very simple, if they don't want to be a part of it, who are you to decide otherwise?

How is stealing physical items the same as linking a video, time, and crediting a person? Spoilers: It's not.
Mobs invading a private residence as an analogy for a database site referring to publicly open data?

To make this analogy relevant, you could say that this mob is going around public streets and mugging people; but the problem is that no mugging/stealing is occuring on the leaderboards.  A website is a location on the internet, and the leaderboards are merely referring to the existence of it.
As stupid as I think it is to have an issue with having your name and run linked to on a website (really, really, really stupid), perhaps it would help alleviate some concerns for SRL to have a stated zero-tolerance type policy on harassment. Thoughts, Cosmo?
Likes SoM far too much
If the creators of the LBs gave into every complain they'd never get anything done. Someone at some point is going to have to be angry about something. There's no way to please 100% of the community. People really need to understand this, and I know it's been said before. Eventually somebody's toes will have to be stepped on. If 70% of the community is in favor of no opting out of putting a link to your run, then that's what's probably going to be what is used. I'm gonna say it, and this will make people angry, but majority usually rules, even if the minority is vocal as hell.
Quote from Naegleria:
Mobs invading a private residence as an analogy for a database site referring to publicly open data?

To make this analogy relevant, you could say that this mob is going around public streets and mugging people; but the problem is that no mugging/stealing is occuring on the leaderboards.  A website is a location on the internet, and the leaderboards are merely referring to the existence of it.


I would liken it to a gold medalist in the Olympics telling news stations not to report their time, score, or name. (hint: the news stations wouldn't care, it is public information, and such a request makes no sense)
0-10
Naegleria, what about getting sucked into the mob to go around doing whatever? It's all the same. It's being done against your will. That is the issue.
But if I don't want to follow the leaderboards rules, then I don't.  I can run Sonic 1 RTA if I wanted to, I don't need to follow their ruleset.  Even if my RTA sonic 1 run gets put on the leaderboards using game time, it doesn't matter.
Edit history:
MrLonghair: 2013-08-14 01:44:46 pm
MrLonghair: 2013-08-14 01:41:04 pm
Audio-guy. twitchtv:ohgoddamnit
Opt-out by default, solve nine out of ten problems. (Clarification, "here is my speedrun submission" for method)
Drop some needs, get active people and active runs instead of ancient history.
It'll become a speedrun leaderboard based on its own set of rules, while we go on with our merry lives undisturbed.
Saving us time, saving you drama and time.

Amen..?


(edited the in/out mental typo.)
sinister1
so pro u don't even know
Quote from Lenophis:
Naegleria, what about getting sucked into the mob to go around doing whatever? It's all the same. It's being done against your will. That is the issue.

So nothing in your life ever happens that is against your will?
Quote from sinister1:
Quote from Lenophis:
Naegleria, what about getting sucked into the mob to go around doing whatever? It's all the same. It's being done against your will. That is the issue.

So nothing in your life ever happens that is against your will?


How is this an argument for it SHOULD happen?  Yes people are forced to do things all the time; doesn't mean this should be the case.  Cmon now.