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Quote from CosmoWright:
There's a couple grey areas discussed in this video. I'm curious if we should try to define "scripted input" and exactly where a line would be drawn for the leaderboards.

If a line is drawn, I think you should be careful not to exclude runs that have been considered legit for years.

Quote:
- custom controller mapping
- having multiple buttons that do the same input

The first has always been considered okay by most people and is nothing but an alternate controller in essence. The second only creates problems, if you use it for button mashing.
Also to touch on sth you said in the video about games allowing to change the controls ingame: It is not that the button functions itself get replaced, the game still receives X and Y as different buttons, it just interprets both as "jump". If things like memory manipulation came into play, they could very well still create different results. So I don't see any need to differenciate between games here.

Quote:
- having one button that does multiple inputs
- turbo functions, and how there are a couple first party turbo controllers like the NES Max
- controller macros that do a series of inputs
- left+right

Except for Japan, where Turbo is usually allowed, and Source games, where some players use macros, and some consoles with a standard turbo controller, these things have always been banned. And the first two cases should be in different categories or unlisted by default, if they're on the LB.

Quote:
- mapping buttons to a control stick

I'm not sure how that works. If you need the exact position, I don't see the issue. But if you have a button mapped to like 20 different, but similiar positions and you spin the stick, isn't that turbo?

Quote:
- using an adapter to modify control stick sensitivity
- swapping controllers mid run
- using an electronic device to swap to different mappings mid run

These all seem like things that have always been allowed to me. I mean are you going to ban 2 and not have Siglemic's run on the LB? 3 is the same thing in essence.

Quote:
- free scrollwheel "turbo" for PC
- keyboards, etc.

I know this will be controversial, but I think turbo should be allowed for PC games. There are infinitely many ways to enhance your button mashing ability in stupid ways. Just a short list:
- stomping on a controller with 20 buttons with your feet while playing
- having a bunch of controllers plugged in and mashing on all of them
- mapping almost every single key of your keyboard to an action and punching your keyboard
- having a bunch of mice plugged in and mash on all of them at once
- using mouse keys for disabled persons to mash a key and the mouse at the same time
- freescrolling mousewheels

But either way I think freescrolling mousewheels should definitely be allowed, when the game allows you to bind it in the options menu. Beyond that it gets subjective what is okay, but there are precedents with Source games, where the console is used, and Mass Effect, where a config file is used. On the other hand it's not used in Rosenkreuzstilette as far as I know.
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 01:27:02 pm
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 01:26:59 pm
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 01:26:58 pm
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 01:24:09 pm
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 01:17:43 pm
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 01:12:39 pm
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 12:57:47 pm
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 12:37:24 pm
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 06:58:10 am
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 06:54:40 am
Yagamoth: 2013-09-04 06:54:22 am
INTJ
Importing my post on reddit to here, because I'm an idiot and didn't realize this place here would be the better place to discuss:

Also please note: I did not have time yet to listen to the whole thing. I simply trusted the Reddit user who created the summary, that he represented the consensus of the discussion.

Quote:
- macros/scripts/anything that lets 1 button do multiple things should be banned
- having the same input bound to 2 different buttons (could double your mashing and probably some other stuff) should be banned

- just remapping your controls should be allowed (with L+R and U+D still banned like with emulator users)

- Some grayer stuff was switching button layouts on the fly (basically a more efficient way of switching controllers) and mapping things to joysticks


^ I put your notes in an easier to read format for myself, thanks for the summary [Directed towards "malignantlyuseless" who created the Reddit Summary].

I agree with the first two points, and sort of kind of not agree with the second point - to an extent.. Let me explain.

Since emulators are inherently already accepted in the speedrunning community for the most part, claiming that you should only be ever using the original input devices seems unreasonable. There are probably relatively few people that own something along the lines of a SNES to USB adapter.
Another point about the "original input devices" is a system like the Xbox. A fighting stick is not an original input device, but generally accepted. Nothing stops me from creating my own fighting stick and simply swapping the "Red Button" to the place of the "Yellow Button" and vice versa. So the idea about "rewiring the controller" seems reasonable as well.

On the other hand - I personally feel like the controllers are part of the game. They inherently impose specific restrictions. If you look at a N64 controller, it is easily possible to use the analog stick AND buttons with only one hand, thus if you have to perform some complicated input which involves a ton of buttons, it is no problem to quickly maneuver your left hand over to the buttons while still controlling the analog stick. Compared to a SNES controller - It is severely more difficult to "help out" your right hand with the left hand.
How is that even relevant? Well, I love technical games, which let me improve my gameplay performance by optimizing my button layout. For "I wanna be the Boshy" I used a setup, which allowed my left hand to jump while the right hand mashes the fire button while still having directional control. Boshy is a pc game with rebindable keybinds, so this is normal. If you'd allow the same for a SNES however, in a game like Secret of Mana, I'd have the option to rewire my controllers in a way which let's me control 2 characters at once in a perfect manner (For reference, currently I can not control 2 characters at once to their full potential - I can walk with 2 at once, but while doing that I'm severely limited in the buttons I can press).
Or a different example - I play fighting games on a keyboard. Arrow Keys for movement and NumPad for attacks. To perform attacks that require me to do a half-circle in the directions, I use my right hands thumb (!) to improve the speed and precision at which I can perform the half circle. There are a ton of little things you can do on a keyboard with variable layout as opposed to a fixed layout from a controller.

If you allow options such as rewiring in general, I feel obligated to utilize this to it's full potential - which in turn makes a lot of games to run really weird if not boring or even stupid (You could come up with all kinds of crazy layouts...).

Let's take the current Zelda LTTP record, which is on emulator. If you want it or not, it has a objectively an advantage in control layout over an actual SNES controller. You don't have to move your thumb from one side of the DPad to the other to make a quick turn, your fingers are instantly in the position and can hit the opposite direction without delay. Also it's bound to happen, that you accidently hit left/right or up/down at the same time at some point, even if that's not intended. Another example from this game - to perform the wallpumping you have to hold (for example) up while basically mashing left/right. Doing this on a keyboard I can literally mash the left/right button ~12 times a second. Trying to do this on a snes controller is severely more difficult and slower.
Oh, and please - I do not mean to diminish the achievement of this specific run, it simply presented itself as a good example.

So my stance on this is
- whenever possible encourage the use of the original controllers
- On the leaderboards mark the runs that use alternative input options (Such as keyboard on an emulator, or even alternative controllers for actual consoles)

It would exclude too many people from running games if it was suddenly decided, that using a keyboard for snes emulator is not an acceptable option.

Edit: Almost forgot about the switching button layouts on the fly
Top level people (Siglemic apparently) already do that, so it would be really difficult to disallow that now. But on the other hand, allowing this in general could lead to really stupid stuff you can do with games. It would be no problem to write a small program, that let's me press F1-F12 to swap between different keyboard layouts on the fly to adapt to specific game situations.
I have no actual example of this, so... I'll make one up which could potentially happen. If a [game] features a mechanic such as shield dashing in SotN and requires you to do completely different things during bossfights, it may make you choose between optimal shield dashing with mediocre bossfights or perfect bossfights with mediocre shield dashing. Allowing the button swap on the fly, you could have the best of both worlds. Which I imagine would make running this game a serious headache for people using the actual console.

Bottom line of my opinion: The official/real hardware/console should never be in a disadvantage compared to the emulators. Exceptions can be made where necessary - I claim that running a SNES emulator over an actual console always has a certain advantage, but it usually is within an acceptable margin.

=====================================================

Edit: Currently listening to the Twitch vod

- Dacid seems to have about the same opinion as me. Modding is ok. But it's an advantage in any case. The point is - is it a fair or an unfair advantage?

- Multi-binding: Here's an interesting tidbit, currently in the "I wanna be the Boshy" (PC) community we allow gamepad users to map 'Left' to a second button (usually L or R trigger) - you can not normall map 2 buttons to the same input. The reason we allow that is, that it's initially a PC game, and if you play on a keyboard you can press Left + Right at the same time you gain the advantage of walking to the right while facing to the left (which is pretty huge in boss battles). So basically we level up the gamepad users to have the same options as keyboard users - Seems reasonable to me.

- On: "How could you enforce that?" You can't. At least not in general. Think about it, if I wanted to I could record a TAS, play it back on stream and do my handcam thing with it... Or if I'm extra fancy, even play back the handcam recording who matches perfectly. So what's the point of banning macros? You can't check that.. Right?
--> Baseline is, in the end, you need to trust people to not break the rules. If they do, hopefully someone gets suspicious enough and requests proof, etc. the whole theater. The rules should be in place regardless.

- I don't quite understand how the Pulseman was relevant in the discussion. He used a confirmed input device and didn't mod it.

- Free scrolling in a PC game: If the ingame keybinds allow it, it is allowed. If the game doesn't allow it, it's not allowed. I really don't see a problem with that to be honest. Everything goes as long as you are not using external programs to make it happen.

- On "official controllers" - using that term would be too sketchy as you pointed it out already. This could be easily solved by using "speedrun community approved controllers" instead.

- Another thing: [Modding] "I can't see how to get that to work perfectly" - Honestly that doesn't matter. The discussion is of theoretical nature anyway. The question is, IF someone could pull it off perfectly. It really doesn't matter how reasonable that is Wink

Overall I think, the rules should be relatively strict, but with the option for the community of a game to decide whether they would want to make exceptions or not.
Has it been 30-40 dev hours yet?
just( •_•)>⌐■-■ ..... (⌐■_■)wing it
I'm still waiting on this to occur, but maybe a real reason as to why SRL gave up on this project would be nice to hear instead of speculation?  We all have theories based around how selfish the people are, and I doubt that could be the real reason, but I'm seeing Zelda's main site getting improvements with no headway in an overall LB.  Did you guys just flat out give up on this?
god i love memes