SMRPG

2010-02-23 12:42:14 pm

Yes, a ninja riding a tiger.

Quote from Mickey_Mage:

Quote from romscout:

So yea I think I've decided to live with Knife + Grate luck. I'd go insane way too fast if I was resetting for failing to freebie. Also, got 94 jumps on Johnny in practice earlier tonight. Got several attempts of 80+ and I think I'm getting the hang of how to visually gauge the jump to get it right on Johnny... problem is, I don't sustain perfect timing for 100 jumps. :p Also, I still get funny failures in there like sub-30 sometimes. It's cute.

Yeah, that's the problem with practicing for speedruns sometimes, haha. This was done offscreen, too, so we didn't get to witness it. :p Oh well (unless I missed something?).

If you ever had the urge to just record a full run attempt offline and get the 100 jumps, I'm sure you'd do pretty well, but I think you're just as used to running with people watching as you are without, right?

I'm starting to wonder this, as well. I hope the streaming thing isn't too much of a distraction since it's fun to watch, but if you're talking/answering questions/interacting in general with the audience it could be part of the problem...I would definitely be distracted if I was attempting a new record.

[quote="Mickey_Mage"]
[quote="romscout"]

So yea I think I've decided to live with Knife + Grate luck. I'd go insane way too fast if I was resetting for failing to freebie. [b]Also, got 94 jumps on Johnny in practice earlier tonight.[/b] Got several attempts of 80+ and I think I'm getting the hang of how to visually gauge the jump to get it right on Johnny... problem is, I don't sustain perfect timing for 100 jumps. :p Also, I still get funny failures in there like sub-30 sometimes. It's cute.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's the problem with practicing for speedruns sometimes, haha. This was done offscreen, too, so we didn't get to witness it. :p Oh well (unless I missed something?).

If you ever had the urge to just record a full run attempt offline and get the 100 jumps, I'm sure you'd do pretty well, but I think you're just as used to running with people watching as you are without, right?
[/quote]
I'm starting to wonder this, as well.  I hope the streaming thing isn't too much of a distraction since it's fun to watch, but if you're talking/answering questions/interacting in general with the audience it could be part of the problem...I would definitely be distracted if I was attempting a new record.

romscout

2010-02-23 05:30:56 pm

that Metroidvania guy

Quote from Floogal:

stuff

Yea I've read that before, and I guess what must've happened was I threw a defend in there somewhere on accident during the battle. But either way, the reason you wouldnt want to keep Y button locked all the time is because you can only do a max of 45-56 damage per turn (assuming perfect Geno timing and varying luck on NokNokShell randomizer) and people can fall asleep which is dumb. When A button is locked, you do 105 at the start and end up doing something like 112 damage per turn and just have to use a froggiedrink if he uses Static E. Y button being locked is supposed to be the "breather" defense wise and allow you to use Honey Syrups for the next special phase. I think the way I fight him now is really fine speed-wise, but any strategy you use on him is going to be dependent on luck, because he will always have a chance of screwing up the order turn somehow.

Thanks for the info though, Floogal.

Quote from AND4H:

That's... incredibly interesting. I never noticed that. That's why the TAS kills off Mario and Mallow early on! So Geno gets 2 turns of physical attacks pushing him to lock Y every single time! That is madness! Shocked

Yea so if I tried that that'd account for more resets than super jumping. :p Also, the only way physical attacks work really well over and over again on Bowyer is with a Power Blast, which you'd have to freebie, and then farm frog coins off wigglers later to get the Exp Booster. But yea it is a weird concept.

Quote from Rakuen:

So the RNG can basically say, "Screw you, you can't have your freebie"? I hate when games do that. -_-

On the flip side, how many RPGs give you the chance to duplicate items during battle? :p

Quote from spook:

I'm starting to wonder this, as well. I hope the streaming thing isn't too much of a distraction since it's fun to watch, but if you're talking/answering questions/interacting in general with the audience it could be part of the problem...I would definitely be distracted if I was attempting a new record.

When I was first practicing this game for the marathon, it was absolutely maddening to run it alone without any other voice or no one to talk to (or at least ramble on about random crap in the run to) or vent frustration to. I could go through a whole run without making a peep, and I was pretty focused, but for a game this long I prefer to have the stream thing going. Most games I'd probably get better runs not streaming, but I'd probably stream it anyway and just not acknowledge what the chat is saying much.

Okay, so no runs until Friday, because I can't have any video game stuff out for the next few days.

[quote="Floogal"]
stuff
[/quote]
Yea I've read that before, and I guess what must've happened was I threw a defend in there somewhere on accident during the battle. But either way, the reason you wouldnt want to keep Y button locked all the time is because you can only do a max of 45-56 damage per turn (assuming perfect Geno timing and varying luck on NokNokShell randomizer) and people can fall asleep which is dumb. When A button is locked, you do 105 at the start and end up doing something like 112 damage per turn and just have to use a froggiedrink if he uses Static E. Y button being locked is supposed to be the "breather" defense wise and allow you to use Honey Syrups for the next special phase. I think the way I fight him now is really fine speed-wise, but any strategy you use on him is going to be dependent on luck, because he will always have a chance of screwing up the order turn somehow.

Thanks for the info though, Floogal.

[quote="AND4H"]
That's... incredibly interesting.  I never noticed that.  That's why the TAS kills off Mario and Mallow early on!  So Geno gets 2 turns of physical attacks pushing him to lock Y every single time!  That is madness!  :o
[/quote]
Yea so if I tried that that'd account for more resets than super jumping. :p Also, the only way physical attacks work really well over and over again on Bowyer is with a Power Blast, which you'd have to freebie, and then farm frog coins off wigglers later to get the Exp Booster. But yea it is a weird concept.

[quote="Rakuen"]
So the RNG can basically say, "Screw you, you can't have your freebie"?  I hate when games do that. -_-
[/quote]
On the flip side, how many RPGs give you the chance to duplicate items during battle? :p

[quote="spook"]
I'm starting to wonder this, as well.  I hope the streaming thing isn't too much of a distraction since it's fun to watch, but if you're talking/answering questions/interacting in general with the audience it could be part of the problem...I would definitely be distracted if I was attempting a new record.
[/quote]
When I was first practicing this game for the marathon, it was absolutely maddening to run it alone without any other voice or no one to talk to (or at least ramble on about random crap in the run to) or vent frustration to. I could go through a whole run without making a peep, and I was pretty focused, but for a game this long I prefer to have the stream thing going. Most games I'd probably get better runs not streaming, but I'd probably stream it anyway and just not acknowledge what the chat is saying much.

Okay, so no runs until Friday, because I can't have any video game stuff out for the next few days.

Lenophis

2010-02-23 05:59:56 pm

0-10

Quote from romscout:

On the flip side, how many RPGs give you the chance to duplicate items during battle? :p

Intentionally or unintentionally? Grin

Flip

2010-02-23 06:09:35 pm

1-Up!

Quote from Lenophis:

Quote from romscout:

On the flip side, how many RPGs give you the chance to duplicate items during battle? :p

Intentionally or unintentionally? Grin

Rakuen

2010-02-23 06:27:31 pm

Weegee Time

Quote:

On the flip side, how many RPGs give you the chance to duplicate items during battle? :p

Haha, good point, but I was more talking about a game that introduces a skill based game mechanic yet randomly decides to throw it out the window whenever it feels like it.

z

2010-02-23 10:21:44 pm

Disclaimer: I am not a programmer. I may barely even qualify as a problem solver.

Re: smithy AI

Unless that chart doesn't tell the whole story, there is no obvious (to me) explanation for triple mage smithy, so I decided to take a closer look with live battle data from what's probably the best smithy fight ever. Without the super suit.

I think we all agree with the chart that the first turn tank transformation is locked in. If you go by the chart, mage transformation at first turn under 6000 HP is also set in stone. There are no readily obvious provisions for mage head to trigger BEFORE that, but it seems to happen quite often and is also what happened in rom's legendary triple mage battle. I actually reviewed the footage of that epic battle and took note of the damage being dealt and smithy's reactionary transformations. I cut out peach's group hugging since I was mainly interested in seeing when his damage checks were tripped.

smithy normal
buffs happen
smithy changes to tank and attacks
more buffs, 288 (mario), smithy attacks
300 (geno), 198 (mario), smithy attacks, then changes to mage (he still has like 7214 HP! WTF #1)
150 (peach), 301 (geno), 570 (mario), smithy attacks
285 (geno), 512 (mario), smithy attacks, then changes to mage (HP below 6000, this is right)
297 (geno), 716 (mario), smithy attacks
289 (geno), 644 (mario), smithy attacks (HP below 4000, where's chest? WTF #2)
289 (geno), 506 (mario), smithy attacks (did not check HP this turn either? WTF #3)
288 (geno), 600 (mario), smithy attacks, then changes to mage AGAIN (HP below 2000, makes sense if 4000 HP check didn't happen, otherwise WTF #4)
288 (geno), 710 (mario), smithy attacks
279 (geno), 590 (mario), smithy dead.

What follows is my attempted analysis of the AI, using too many words trying to explain and/or figure out what the hell is going on, so I'll spoiler tag it for those not interested. Maybe someone with an emulator can test it if they manage to get to the bottom.

Smithy's first tank transformation is set in stone by way of it being the first routine, checking for a cleared bit that it knows won't be set and then setting it so it never triggers again. This routine also clears all stored variables presumably from the previous fight since that battle does not end normally. Thus the sure fire tank will not happen twice in one battle.

His following transformations look for two bits; 03 01 and 02 xx. 03 01 is set by the body randomly, about 1/2 of the time (it can either just attack or attack and set the bit). The body does this when it can't transform, otherwise it will transform based upon what bit variable 02 is set to. This means each head except for chest is guaranteed to have to wait for two body turns because once it changes, even if the body sets 03 01 the next turn, it won't actually check for it until the turn after that. On my first reading of the AI chart, I thought you could kill the body to stop the head from transforming for 3 attack turns, not noticing that the line that checks to see if the body is alive is AFTER he sets 03 01. Well damn.

By default, variable 02 bit 01 is clear, which is supposedly a recipe for tank, which is near the bottom of the checklist. Variable 02 bit 01 is set when HP drops below 6000 which should be an instant mage on the next turn when 03 01 is set. All transformations except box increment variable 09, though I don't know what variable 09 actually does... it doesn't seem to be checked for anything unless it's another special variable. If it is, it's possible that it triggers the first mage transformation (is this locked in? it seems to always happen when I'm watching or playing and mage is the next transformation in line). It's worth noting that when any HP check besides <0 is satisfied, variable 09 is zeroed out and begins incrementing anew.

Many people seem to be under the impression that smithy isn't supposed to give the same form twice in a row; if variable 09 is what's at work here, that would make sense since it would exist here solely to prevent that, except when the HP thresholds are crossed and they force a transformation. If the first mage transformation is indeed set after tank to prevent tank ---> tank (I have never encountered or observed this, myself), then getting double mage is simply achieved through doing enough damage to smithy after the first mage transformation that he can't transform again until you drop his HP below 6000. You should get forced mage as a result of the HP check, even though you were already in mage. And since rom's party generally can do about 1000 HP damage per turn, this is actually not that uncommon to reproduce and, in fact, seemed to happen frequently in his runs, at least those I've watched. Okay, that should be easy to test...

But even if that's true, how do you get mage a third time? Triple mage from what I read basically requires you to somehow avoid the <4000 HP check and have it so the next time smithy checks his HP, it's under 2000. This prevents the chest from ever being a possible choice as well as tank because it leaves variable 02 set to bit 01 and never sets the chest's bit. The box bit will be set at 2000, but since the game will check for mage's bit first, mage it is. Or so we hope.

Here's the problem. I thought the head checked its HP every single turn if not at least every OTHER turn. If my theory is correct, and skipping the 4000 HP check is simply another matter of doing ridiculous damage (which if true means it should happen a lot more if rom gets a super suit run), then that's a best case scenario since it means you can force 3x mage head semi consistently. I want to believe this is what happened in rom's best fight, but if so, it seems clear that there were two turns where the chest head was not triggered when logically it should have come up. It's worth noting that smithy also abstained from transforming into anything at all for three straight turns here, which is I think 50/50 because it means he simply did not set variable 03 to bit 01 until his second turn in this phase. This detail is a luck factor no matter how you look at it, but if the rest can be controlled, so much the better. But this explanation doesn't sit well with me even though I can't explain a third mage head any other way.

If it was only that one turn passed without an 03 01 bit being set, that would mean smithy should have then went straight to box. According to the chart, box and tank should be his only choices to switch to here because variable 02 bit 01 will be clear (triggers tank and is the opposite of mage), while variable 02 bit 02 will be set, which triggers box. This to me suggests that the 4000 HP check was never satisfied even though there were two full turns where it actually was. And while that would explain the above anomaly, it doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint.

We know 0 HP checks constantly because there isn't, to my knowledge, a boss in the game that doesn't remove itself from the battle the instant you kill it. Even if you still have attackers that would have gone before the boss, they don't get to attack it; the target disappears, usually accompanied by a death animation. It stands to logic that the other HP checks are executed similarly even though their results are triggered behind the scenes and should not manifest until the next turn. In other words, if smithy's HP ever drops below 4000, he should not logically be able to switch to mage head unless we're all overlooking something. I can't even explain this with variable 09 because variable 09 is supposed to be zeroed out by a successful <4000 HP check.

Interestingly, I checked rom's 3:48 smithy fight which had two mages in a row followed by chest and tank. I'm not going to copy and paste those numbers because I didn't pay as much attention other than noting when he changed heads and 6000 HP mage came as expected, with 4000 HP chest as it should probably be. No box here seemed like pure luck since he was in the 2000 - 0 range for numerous turns but is not inexplicable, and tank head was a viable possibility, though one I thought would be overridden by chest by its order in the routine, lending some weight to the value of variable 09 as a deterrent to same head transformations. Aside from the first mage head, no anomalies here and even that may be accountable by virtue of the 09 variable trying to prevent tank -> tank.

Short version: Incrementing variable 09 has to have some effect on variable 02 (the head selection variable) or there are more unknown factors. Smithy's heads should be manipulable to some degree where 2x mage is guaranteed, but 3x mage is still a world of WTF.

Anyway, this subject's been bugging me ever since I started following the stream, so hopefully this helps someone smarter than me crack the case.

[i]Disclaimer: I am not a programmer.  I may barely even qualify as a problem solver.[/i]

Re: smithy AI

Unless that chart doesn't tell the whole story, there is no obvious (to me) explanation for triple mage smithy, so I decided to take a closer look with live battle data from what's probably the best smithy fight ever.  Without the super suit.

I think we all agree with the chart that the first turn tank transformation is locked in.  If you go by the chart, mage transformation at first turn under 6000 HP is also set in stone.  There are no readily obvious provisions for mage head to trigger BEFORE that, but it seems to happen quite often and is also what happened in rom's legendary triple mage battle.  I actually reviewed the footage of that epic battle and took note of the damage being dealt and smithy's reactionary transformations.  I cut out peach's group hugging since I was mainly interested in seeing when his damage checks were tripped.

smithy normal
buffs happen
smithy changes to tank and attacks
more buffs, 288 (mario), smithy attacks
300 (geno), 198 (mario), smithy attacks, then changes to mage (he still has like 7214 HP!  WTF #1)
150 (peach), 301 (geno), 570 (mario), smithy attacks
285 (geno), 512 (mario), smithy attacks, then changes to mage (HP below 6000, this is right)
297 (geno), 716 (mario), smithy attacks
289 (geno), 644 (mario), smithy attacks (HP below 4000, where's chest?  WTF #2)
289 (geno), 506 (mario), smithy attacks (did not check HP this turn either?  WTF #3)
288 (geno), 600 (mario), smithy attacks, then changes to mage AGAIN (HP below 2000, makes sense if 4000 HP check didn't happen, otherwise WTF #4)
288 (geno), 710 (mario), smithy attacks
279 (geno), 590 (mario), smithy dead.

What follows is my attempted analysis of the AI, using too many words trying to explain and/or figure out what the hell is going on, so I'll spoiler tag it for those not interested.  Maybe someone with an emulator can test it if they manage to get to the bottom.

[spoiler]

Smithy's first tank transformation is set in stone by way of it being the first routine, checking for a cleared bit that it knows won't be set and then setting it so it never triggers again.  This routine also clears all stored variables presumably from the previous fight since that battle does not end normally.  Thus the sure fire tank will not happen twice in one battle.

His following transformations look for two bits; 03 01 and 02 xx.  03 01 is set by the body randomly, about 1/2 of the time (it can either just attack or attack and set the bit).  The body does this when it can't transform, otherwise it will transform based upon what bit variable 02 is set to.  This means each head except for chest is guaranteed to have to wait for two body turns because once it changes, even if the body sets 03 01 the next turn, it won't actually check for it until the turn after that.  On my first reading of the AI chart, I thought you could kill the body to stop the head from transforming for 3 attack turns, not noticing that the line that checks to see if the body is alive is AFTER he sets 03 01.  Well damn.

By default, variable 02 bit 01 is clear, which is supposedly a recipe for tank, which is near the bottom of the checklist.  Variable 02 bit 01 is set when HP drops below 6000 which should be an instant mage on the next turn when 03 01 is set.  All transformations except box increment variable 09, though I don't know what variable 09 actually does... it doesn't seem to be checked for anything unless it's another special variable.  If it is, it's possible that it triggers the first mage transformation (is this locked in?  it seems to always happen when I'm watching or playing and mage is the next transformation in line).  It's worth noting that when any HP check besides <0 is satisfied, variable 09 is zeroed out and begins incrementing anew.

Many people seem to be under the impression that smithy isn't supposed to give the same form twice in a row; if variable 09 is what's at work here, that would make sense since it would exist here solely to prevent that, except when the HP thresholds are crossed and they force a transformation.  If the first mage transformation is indeed set after tank to prevent tank ---> tank (I have never encountered or observed this, myself), then getting double mage is simply achieved through doing enough damage to smithy after the first mage transformation that he can't transform again until you drop his HP below 6000.  You should get forced mage as a result of the HP check, even though you were already in mage.  And since rom's party generally can do about 1000 HP damage per turn, this is actually not that uncommon to reproduce and, in fact, seemed to happen frequently in his runs, at least those I've watched.  Okay, that should be easy to test...

But even if that's true, how do you get mage a third time?   Triple mage from what I read basically requires you to somehow avoid the <4000 HP check and have it so the next time smithy checks his HP, it's under 2000.  This prevents the chest from ever being a possible choice as well as tank because it leaves variable 02 set to bit 01 and never sets the chest's bit.  The box bit will be set at 2000, but since the game will check for mage's bit first, mage it is.  Or so we hope.

Here's the problem.  I thought the head checked its HP every single turn if not at least every OTHER turn.  If my theory is correct, and skipping the 4000 HP check is simply another matter of doing ridiculous damage (which if true means it should happen a lot more if rom gets a super suit run), then that's a best case scenario since it means you can force 3x mage head semi consistently.  I want to believe this is what happened in rom's best fight, but if so, it seems clear that there were two turns where the chest head was not triggered when logically it should have come up.   It's worth noting that smithy also abstained from transforming into anything at all for three straight turns here, which is I think 50/50 because it means he simply did not set variable 03 to bit 01 until his second turn in this phase.  This detail is a luck factor no matter how you look at it, but if the rest can be controlled, so much the better.  But this explanation doesn't sit well with me even though I can't explain a third mage head any other way.

If it was only that one turn passed without an 03 01 bit being set, that would mean smithy should have then went straight to box.  According to the chart, box and tank should be his only choices to switch to here because variable 02 bit 01 will be clear (triggers tank and is the opposite of mage), while variable 02 bit 02 will be set, which triggers box.  This to me suggests that the 4000 HP check was never satisfied even though there were two full turns where it actually was.  And while that would explain the above anomaly, it doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint.

We know 0 HP checks constantly because there isn't, to my knowledge, a boss in the game that doesn't remove itself from the battle the instant you kill it.  Even if you still have attackers that would have gone before the boss, they don't get to attack it; the target disappears, usually accompanied by a death animation.  It stands to logic that the other HP checks are executed similarly even though their results are triggered behind the scenes and should not manifest until the next turn.  In other words, if smithy's HP ever drops below 4000, he should not logically be able to switch to mage head unless we're all overlooking something.  I can't even explain this with variable 09 because variable 09 is supposed to be zeroed out by a successful <4000 HP check.

Interestingly, I checked rom's 3:48 smithy fight which had two mages in a row followed by chest and tank.  I'm not going to copy and paste those numbers because I didn't pay as  much attention other than noting when he changed heads and 6000 HP mage came as expected, with 4000 HP chest as it should probably be.  No box here seemed like pure luck since he was in the 2000 - 0 range for numerous turns but is not inexplicable, and tank head was a viable possibility, though one I thought would be overridden by chest by its order in the routine, lending some weight to the value of variable 09 as a deterrent to same head transformations.  Aside from the first mage head, no anomalies here and even that may be accountable by virtue of the 09 variable trying to prevent tank -> tank.

Short version: Incrementing variable 09 has to have some effect on variable 02 (the head selection variable) or there are more unknown factors.  Smithy's heads should be manipulable to some degree where 2x mage is guaranteed, but 3x mage is still a world of WTF.

[/spoiler]

Anyway, this subject's been bugging me ever since I started following the stream, so hopefully this helps someone smarter than me crack the case.

Nitrodon

2010-02-23 10:52:19 pm

By my reading, byte 03 bit 01 determines whether Smithy transforms, and byte 02 bits 01, 02, and 04 determine what Smithy transforms into when he does. Otherwise, I drew the same conclusions you did. Obviously, some part of that document is inconsistent with what actually happens, or at least incomplete in its description.

Floogal

2010-02-24 03:32:15 am

I'm glad that I'm not the only one thinking something is missing from Smithy's AI documentation. Most likely, there is some hard-coded stuff going on in that final battle, possibly via his custom actions (body changing or attacks). Checking this helpful page, it seems that other moves, like Birdo's egg-splosive attack and Fear Roulette, have stuff hard-coded into them that makes it hard to just apply them generally to other creatures.

Quote from z:

We know 0 HP checks constantly because there isn't, to my knowledge, a boss in the game that doesn't remove itself from the battle the instant you kill it.

Technically, the game always checks for 0 HP after an attack -- most bosses have a custom check for 0 HP so that they can choose the flashier "fountain of coins" death animation instead of the standard one.

The Axem Rangers are an example of bosses that don't remove themselves from battle when their HP reaches 0 -- instead, they simply make themselves untargettable and do nothing on their turns. This has the visual effect of not having them disappear (since they technically quit fighting instead of dying), but has the side effect of never granting you their experience points. That battle should give you 60 experience, not 16 (you only officially defeat the "Axem Rangers", i.e. their ship). Oops.

According to the page I linked above, a battle ends not when everyone is defeated, but when there are no targettable enemies or party members. So you never need to worry about beating either Hangin~ Shy that accompanies Boomer. Good thing, too, as they have 200 speed, and use their first turn to make themselves untargettable (and then do nothing on all other turns).

I'm glad that I'm not the only one thinking something is missing from Smithy's AI documentation.  Most likely, there is some hard-coded stuff going on in that final battle, possibly via his custom actions (body changing or attacks).  Checking [url=http://acmlm.kafuka.org/board/thread.php?id=4592]this[/url] helpful page, it seems that other moves, like Birdo's egg-splosive attack and Fear Roulette, have stuff hard-coded into them that makes it hard to just apply them generally to other creatures.

[quote="z"]We know 0 HP checks constantly because there isn't, to my knowledge, a boss in the game that doesn't remove itself from the battle the instant you kill it.[/quote]Technically, the game always checks for 0 HP after an attack -- most bosses have a custom check for 0 HP so that they can choose the flashier "fountain of coins" death animation instead of the standard one.

The Axem Rangers are an example of bosses that don't remove themselves from battle when their HP reaches 0 -- instead, they simply make themselves untargettable and do nothing on their turns.  This has the visual effect of not having them disappear (since they technically quit fighting instead of dying), but has the side effect of never granting you their experience points.  That battle should give you 60 experience, not 16 (you only officially defeat the "Axem Rangers", i.e. their ship).  Oops.

According to the page I linked above, a battle ends not when everyone is defeated, but when there are no targettable enemies or party members.  So you never need to worry about beating either Hangin~ Shy that accompanies Boomer.  Good thing, too, as they have 200 speed, and use their first turn to make themselves untargettable (and then do nothing on all other turns).

Josh the Funkdoc

2010-02-24 12:50:12 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

Hmm, seems like the window for super jumps already goes down to 3 frames at 16 or so...

More than anything it's the rhythm that's nasty though, someone really should try to quantify that.

Josh the Funkdoc

2010-02-24 08:52:12 pm

spread the dirt to the populace

Alright, so I found the interval between each jump, from the last frame you can hit Y on the first jump to the last frame you can hit Y on the last jump. The results?

...It's 45 frames between jumps. Every single one of them.

Yes, you read that right, and I was shocked as well! The trickery here lies in making Mario jump higher and descend faster (or vice versa) at different points so as to give the illusion of a change in timing. That's really it, the window for hitting Y never changes nor does the interval if you select a different starting/end point.

Given this info, I think you would be best off not even looking at the screen and just trying to master that rhythm since it never changes.

Sir VG

2010-02-24 10:28:27 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

And I assume that SMRPG runs at 60FPS? So in a sense, you press the button once every 0.75 seconds.

Yay for basic math skills.

Mickey_Mage

2010-02-25 12:01:57 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

I've noticed Mario just going higher on some jumps than anything.

__sdfg

2010-02-25 12:02:55 am

D:

Quote from Josh the Funkdoc:

Given this info, I think you would be best off not even looking at the screen and just trying to master that rhythm since it never changes.

I found it easier to do that when I played the game. I assumed that it was because I was bad at reading the animation, though. It didn't occur to me that the visuals might be misleading.

Of course, I was proud of myself just for getting the Attack Scarf. :-[

ShinerCCC

2010-02-25 04:42:09 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

45 frames within a 3 frame window? I always wanted to figure out BPM and millisecond equivalents for those, so I'll try it now.

A frame is 16.6~ milliseconds...well, 3 frames is 1/20th of a second, so that's 50 milliseconds. That's actually a somewhat forgiving window. An Excellent on ITG is 43 milliseconds, but compare that to the best grading for a single arrow, a Fantastic, which is 21.5 milliseconds. A Marvelous on DDR is 16.6~. A flashing Great on Beatmania IIDX is 8 (LOL). But since the rhythm you're hitting is simple half-notes, it shouldn't be too hard.

A tempo of 45 frames...well, that's like 3/4 of a second. Or, you can cross multiply beats/second to find 1/0.75 = x/60, and the result is 0.75x = 60, or x = 80. So your tempo is 80 BPM. If I were you I'd set a metronome to 160 BPM, or find some music at that tempo and memorize it very exactingly. But humans have error, so if you're just recalling or humming the tune you could be off even on a decimal level and still mess up. You could mute your TV to put on the music or listen to your metronome, lolz.

You can run something like Mixmeister BPM Analyzer on some MP3s you like to listen to, or just make a click track/metronome in Audacity yourself. I'm just suggesting 160 because then you're hitting every 2 beats and have a midpoint to help your timing. You could even get...whoever sits in on your streams to start the metronome on beat for you once a Super Jump starts.

This all assumes that the 45 frames thing is constant on every enemy, and that the timing won't change even if they wobble around like Johnny.

45 frames within a 3 frame window? I always wanted to figure out BPM and millisecond equivalents for those, so I'll try it now.

A frame is 16.6~ milliseconds...well, 3 frames is 1/20th of a second, so that's 50 milliseconds. That's actually a somewhat forgiving window. An Excellent on ITG is 43 milliseconds, but compare that to the best grading for a single arrow, a Fantastic, which is 21.5 milliseconds. A Marvelous on DDR is 16.6~. A flashing Great on Beatmania IIDX is 8 (LOL). But since the rhythm you're hitting is simple half-notes, it shouldn't be too hard.

A tempo of 45 frames...well, that's like 3/4 of a second. Or, you can cross multiply beats/second to find 1/0.75 = x/60, and the result is 0.75x = 60, or x = 80. So your tempo is 80 BPM. If I were you I'd set a metronome to 160 BPM, or find some music at that tempo and memorize it very exactingly. But humans have error, so if you're just recalling or humming the tune you could be off even on a decimal level and still mess up. You could mute your TV to put on the music or listen to your metronome, lolz.

You can run something like Mixmeister BPM Analyzer on some MP3s you like to listen to, or just make a click track/metronome in Audacity yourself. I'm just suggesting 160 because then you're hitting every 2 beats and have a midpoint to help your timing. You could even get...whoever sits in on your streams to start the metronome on beat for you once a Super Jump starts.

This all assumes that the 45 frames thing is constant on every enemy, and that the timing won't change even if they wobble around like Johnny.

Josh the Funkdoc

2010-02-25 07:09:37 am

spread the dirt to the populace

I did all of my testing on Johnny, so no need to worry about that. =)

Mickey_Mage

2010-02-25 02:13:01 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

I'm a music person, so I wouldn't mind trying the metronome way at least once, to see if I can get the beat down. If the BPM you put is more or less right, then that shouldn't be too hard to get used to through a metronome.

Blackbird

2010-02-25 03:46:13 pm

I would think the most difficult problem would be starting the metronome/beat at the exact same time as the Super Jump window (so that they match up).

Rakuen

2010-02-25 03:56:19 pm

Weegee Time

Quote from Blackbird:

I would think the most difficult problem would be starting the metronome/beat at the exact same time as the Super Jump window (so that they match up).

Considering the time frame we're talking is .05 seconds (3/60=1/20), it'd be almost impossible to start them both at the same time. You'd use a metronome to ingrain the spacing in your head instead.

hepcecob

2010-02-25 11:05:01 pm

Well what if you had the metronome on, and then just knew the exact time you should START the jump action according to the metronome.

mocliamtoh

2010-02-25 11:33:16 pm

My name is unpronounceable

I only speak for myself here, but that would be extremely difficult. When something is just going at a steady beat and I'm supposed to not follow it (different rhythm or focus on a different part of the beat, etc.), whether I intend to or not, I start following that beat. I think the best thing to do would be to get the rhythm into your head, however you choose to do it, rather than trying to setup anything to follow.

romscout

2010-03-07 09:42:29 pm

that Metroidvania guy

Had a little refresher run today (streamed it, of course), decided not to stick to only doing a run if I got the Super Suit because it's been over 2 weeks since I fully played SMRPG and I just wanted to remind myself of everything in the game. I was very sloppy on the maps and I got horrible luck at the start (6 bombs from Croco that mostly one-shot Mallow and forced me to keep using Pick Me Ups, and a failed strategy on Belome that Lochinvyrr had that I'll fix for next time... oh and horrible Bowyer fight, but that's kinda expected now), and I had a lot of weird mistakes I normally wouldn't make. I felt very rusty.

I got around 50 jumps on Johnny this time, which I guess isn't bad for being rusty but I felt like I shoulda kept it going to 100 (obviously). I drew both battle rooms in Bowser's Keep right off the bat (doors 1+2), so that was pretty bad. I had VERY smooth movement through the Factory, best map movement on that ever. Didn't get in a single battle I didn't intend to. Smithy was okay, not epic or great but passable.

Overall, my time was 3:46:03, which is my best yet but obviously it didn't seem like a good run at all. So I guess all I can do now is go back to trying to go for the Super Suit and hoping for much better times to come. I also am considering a small revision: Wake Up Pin on Mario for Bowyer instead of Jump Shoes. Will try this next time. Not sure when next time will be though. I'm kinda hooked on learning ESPGaluda 2 and going for some Mushihimesama Futari Black Label 1cc's, so I might not have another SMRPG run this week. We'll see.

Had a little refresher run today (streamed it, of course), decided not to stick to only doing a run if I got the Super Suit because it's been over 2 weeks since I fully played SMRPG and I just wanted to remind myself of everything in the game. I was very sloppy on the maps and I got horrible luck at the start (6 bombs from Croco that mostly one-shot Mallow and forced me to keep using Pick Me Ups, and a failed strategy on Belome that Lochinvyrr had that I'll fix for next time... oh and horrible Bowyer fight, but that's kinda expected now), and I had a lot of weird mistakes I normally wouldn't make. I felt very rusty.

I got around 50 jumps on Johnny this time, which I guess isn't bad for being rusty but I felt like I shoulda kept it going to 100 (obviously). I drew both battle rooms in Bowser's Keep right off the bat (doors 1+2), so that was pretty bad. I had VERY smooth movement through the Factory, best map movement on that ever. Didn't get in a single battle I didn't intend to. Smithy was okay, not epic or great but passable.

Overall, my time was 3:46:03, which is my best yet but obviously it didn't seem like a good run at all. So I guess all I can do now is go back to trying to go for the Super Suit and hoping for much better times to come. I also am considering a small revision: Wake Up Pin on Mario for Bowyer instead of Jump Shoes. Will try this next time. Not sure when next time will be though. I'm kinda hooked on learning ESPGaluda 2 and going for some Mushihimesama Futari Black Label 1cc's, so I might not have another SMRPG run this week. We'll see.

Blackbird

2010-03-08 10:37:50 am

Oh man, you're totally speaking my language. I'm all about the awesome Japanese shmups.

romscout

2010-03-09 09:26:05 pm

that Metroidvania guy

Quote from Blackbird:

Oh man, you're totally speaking my language. I'm all about the awesome Japanese shmups.

I stream my runs on those pretty often. They get about 40-50 less viewers than my SMRPG runs (so about 50ish total on average) but I still have a nice little crowd to talk to. You should show up more often. ;p

Darkwing Duck

2010-03-09 09:32:53 pm

Highly Evolved

bah to schmups. I see enough of them.

Since I was informed that this month is for some reason Schmup appreciation month, I did play that versus Touhou (spelling?) shooter and somehow one time beat a friend that has 1cc'd Dodonphoci (once again, spelling? Stupid Japanese shooters with their incredibly horrible romanization and pronunciation) while having full health, and I wasn't a boss character, either.

Anyway, long story short, stream more SMRPG. Tongue

Blackbird

Edit history:

Blackbird: 2010-03-10 11:38:34 am

2010-03-10 11:31:19 am

Quote from romscout:

I stream my runs on those pretty often. They get about 40-50 less viewers than my SMRPG runs (so about 50ish total on average) but I still have a nice little crowd to talk to. You should show up more often. ;p

I do try. Usually I check your page to see if anything is going on when I do my morning internet rounds. Maybe I'm not dropping by at the right time =P

@ Darkwing Dodonpachi is the preferred romanization.

Shmups are awesome, though, if you put yourself in the "character's" shoes. One single pilot in a highly explosive craft, often against an entire army (or world). Boss enemies that can fire as many missiles as there are stars in the sky. Rather than retreating, the character flies directly into the face of death, thinking they can actually WIN. Then you have the (generally pulse pounding) sound track and widespread destruction. Shmups are METAL.

Incidentally, my favorite shmup is Raiden, even if it's not a curtain shooter.