Skies Of Arcadia Legends...GC

2009-04-03 09:07:23 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

Making a torrent will be crucial, like you said. Maybe I can save Nate another month long headache and do the encoding myself. I can let my computers (yes, I have more than one) run the encoding while I'm at work and do a remote desktop if necessary to change things around.

Ship battles are going to be the easiest to plan for, but the hardest to execute. The major keys are to know what maneuver to use when the choices come up (those with a cutscene; i.e. "Wait and see" or "Get behind them"), and when to use specific moves on the right turns (when to use quicka for the Gregorgio fight, S. Cannon the Green Gigas, etc.). Other than those, it comes down to a slugfest with an occasional healing. The only issue that I'll have to plan for is when to upgrade the cannons and torpedoes.

And yes, the characters' stats affect the ship on the turn they are used. I don't know how well the Quick and Evade stats are used, but your Hit% and Attack do affect your cannons. Main plan with this is to have Vyse and the 4th character be the attackers, with Aika and Fina on Increm, Focus, Evasive Action, Sylenis (for the Valuan Spellships), and healing. I'll try to keep all the ship battles to no more than two rounds, although some exceptions would have to be made for some battles (like the red and green gigas).

Making a torrent will be crucial, like you said.  Maybe I can save Nate another month long headache and do the encoding myself.  I can let my computers (yes, I have more than one) run the encoding while I'm at work and do a remote desktop if necessary to change things around.

Ship battles are going to be the easiest to plan for, but the hardest to execute.  The major keys are to know what maneuver to use when the choices come up (those with a cutscene; i.e. "Wait and see" or "Get behind them"), and when to use specific moves on the right turns (when to use quicka for the Gregorgio fight, S. Cannon the Green Gigas, etc.).  Other than those, it comes down to a slugfest with an occasional healing.  The only issue that I'll have to plan for is when to upgrade the cannons and torpedoes.

And yes, the characters' stats affect the ship on the turn they are used.  I don't know how well the Quick and Evade stats are used, but your Hit% and Attack do affect your cannons.  Main plan with this is to have Vyse and the 4th character be the attackers, with Aika and Fina on Increm, Focus, Evasive Action, Sylenis (for the Valuan Spellships), and healing.  I'll try to keep all the ship battles to no more than two rounds, although some exceptions would have to be made for some battles (like the red and green gigas).

Sorcerer88

2009-04-04 04:11:21 pm

I have no solution, but i admire the problem.

I love this game. I hope you can avoid some of the encounters and get the run to at least sub-20 Wink

so good luck!

koesherbacon

2009-04-04 06:31:42 pm

I've had a little time to reflect on my experiences playing the game. There are a few points that were particularly frustrating.

The first was when you're on your way to Ixa'taka in the Little Jack. I seem to remember random encounters being off the charts during this journey. Getting the fewest encounters there could make a significant difference in time.

The second was on your way back from Yafutoma. I don't know about the rest of you, but I always chose to go the wrong direction and ended up circumnavigating the globe to find my way back to Ixa'taka. Going the right direction will (obviously) be crucial to making a decent run!

Hope this info helps some!

Zyre

2009-04-05 07:08:21 pm

The Speedrunning Teacher

That's my goal Sorcerer, a sub-20 hour speedrun of one of the most loved and most frustrating RPGs of all time. On the previous thread it mentioned that someone did a 25-hour single segment speedrun of the game. Since I'm doing a segmented one, I figured that I should be able to get less than that, so I set my goal for a sub-20.

And you're right, koesher. South Ocean is notorious for having extra battles. I think the reason for this though is that you're speed increases a little since you have the winds at your back, and thus covers more air in a shorter amount of time (and more chances of an encounter too). Sadly, Ixa'taka is the earliest that I will be able to gather 10 moonfish for the White Map, so I'll have to work on it.

As for returning from Yafutoma, that will just be something a little practice will fix easy. That's good info to remember as well.

Man, SDA just broke a record with Essentia's FFX speedrun, and here we are working on a longer one. XD

Carcinogen

2009-04-05 11:07:53 pm

I used to have this game on Dreamcast some three years ago. I haven't played it in nearly four, because my Disc 2 would never load. Gave it to my ex-girlfriend after I'd learned that, coincidentally, she had a Disc 1 that didn't work but had a Disc 2 in perfect working condition.

Since then, I'd forgotten every detail of the game, save for the random battles, but reading this thread reminded me of how fucking awesome this game was.

Thanks, guys. I'm gonna go pick this game up again. Good luck!

Squishface

2009-04-06 12:41:47 am

FYI (sorry to get off topic a tad) those feeling nostalgic with a PS3 can get Valkyria Chronicles. Vyse and Aika are playable characters and Fina also makes an appearance.

Sorcerer88

2009-04-06 03:12:30 pm

I have no solution, but i admire the problem.

That's because Valkyria Chronicles is from the original developers of Skies of Arcadia! If i'll ever get a PS3, i'll probably get that game as well.

To make this at least a bit on-topic, i've looked for the emulator compatability for skies of arcadia, and i'm not sure about the dreamcast version (maybe check here but for the gamecube it seems like the game works, if only quite slowly. Might be worth checking out anyways with a decent PC, especially if you can use savestates.

Zyre

2009-04-06 05:34:53 pm

The Speedrunning Teacher

Thanks for the thoughts on the emulation ideas, Sorcerer. I have the Gamecube version and a working Gamecube so I'm just gonna practice and record from that. Using an emulator and savestates results in a Tool-Assisted Speedrun (TAS) and that doesn't qualify for a SDA speedrun. Gotta use the actual console whenever possible.

koesherbacon

2009-04-06 06:51:07 pm

If you went for the emulation version, you'd have to post it on this site:
http://tasvideos.org/

getter77

2009-04-06 08:33:38 pm

100% runs=great to watch

Folks, I'm guessing moreso the idea was to have the emulator to test things with save states and whatnot to save some wear and tear on the machine itself.

Zyre

2009-04-06 11:28:55 pm

The Speedrunning Teacher

Quote from getter77:

Folks, I'm guessing moreso the idea was to have the emulator to test things with save states and whatnot to save some wear and tear on the machine itself.

Ah, makes sense. I didn't think of that.

chronorox1

2009-04-08 09:36:11 pm

Good luck with this guys!
Huge SoA fan and I'll be keeping tabs on your progress.
You've also inspired me to play this again - my first time was 99% due to missable chest Sad

Zyre

2009-04-13 05:38:46 pm

The Speedrunning Teacher

Just thought I'd give a quick little update on my progress.

First draft planning is about a third done, got up to Ixa'taka started. The first segment is fully planned out, and I'm in the testing stages for feasibility.

I'm also looking for a DVR so I don't have to use a VCR, and thanks to my tax return, I'll have enough money to get one this week. I expect that by the end of next week, I'll have a little sample to show you guys.

Like I said...a little update.

koesherbacon

2009-04-13 07:09:13 pm

Cool, thanks for the updates! How do you intend to record and output the files to and from your DVR?

Are you going to go after the Zyphus Bane items in the game or forget about them?

Zyre

2009-04-13 11:17:46 pm

The Speedrunning Teacher

The DVR I ordered has a hard drive on it, so initially all recordings will be stored on it. Once I've got the segments I want, all I have to do is burn a DVD (if it can't hook up to my computers, that is).

As for Bane's items...no. He's a tough fight, and while the items would sell for good gold, I don't think the time lost in the fight would be worth it.

koesherbacon

2009-04-18 03:31:55 pm

Awesome re: DVR. I didn't know that they could hook up to computers.

Got any progress to report? Sending good thoughts in your direction Smiley

Zyre

2009-04-19 06:31:16 pm

The Speedrunning Teacher

Got a few things I can report. My DVR is expected to arrive either tomorrow or the day after, so I'll get a video sample up shortly after that to make sure my recording settings are good.

As for the run itself...real life slowed me down a bit this week, so I've only been able to test run the first segment a few times, but I've got it down to a lower 20s minute to start (and that is including the intro cutscene).

I'm also looking at the ingame timer and any issues that may have. I know the in game time starts when you start a new game, but I believe that it stops when you're in your menu screen(s).

That's it for now. This week will be a much better week to get some testing and recording done, so expect to hear more later this week.

Junglechief87

2009-04-20 04:05:28 am

I am currently doing a test run that is a little unoptimized and am before the belleza fight at 2:38. I noticed the item box thing and am planning to utilize item boxes more for future runs. Also my preposed moonberry distribution would be get Drachma spirit charge before the fat thing in the catacombs and then go straight for pirates wrath(You want it before antonio 2). Red magic is the only magic worth learning for early game and lamba is a waste, since red magic does its job better and is cheaper. Also green magic is better done with items, because they are broken. Similarly increm is only useful until you have access to glyphs of might. You only really need to upgrade Vyse, with the occasional armor upgrade to fina or aika. Late game learn riselem so you can recrute Illchymes really fast because his shop sells paranta seeds which you can use to completely brake late game(its up in the air on whether to do this before or after yeliger). Abuse the hell outta segements on the overworld. With this you can get any extra moonberries and experience you need without going out of your way and completely avoid random encounters if you wish. For ship battles you will want to invest in gear grease.

Zyre

2009-04-21 01:24:36 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

Interesting idea you have with the moonberries and Drachma. I'll consider it. Let me explain my reasoning for getting lambda burst.

Pyri may be cheaper, but it uses a magic point. I'm trying to avoid using any magic in battles as much as possible so that I won't have to stop and gather/use magic droplets to refill my magic points. Hence why I utilize item boxes. Perhaps at first I'll have Aika use Pyri, but once she can one shot any overworld (and some dungeon) using lambda burst, I won't use any more magic points that way, plus it only requires spirit points. That way I can save the magic points for green healing magic for use outside of battle (and in ship battles on occasion) and save the healing crystals for in battle (again, because they don't use either a magic point or any spirit points). Plus, the magic would act as a buffer should I run out of crystals (I don't think I will, but with this game, you never know).

I don't exactly get what you mean by 'broken' though...

As for Illchymes...I'm hesitant to recruit him. Getting any of the crew adds to the time on an already long game. Plus, money is going to be somewhat tight as I'll mostly be relying on Discoveries and battles to earn gold, especially since you cannot advance the story at one point without having 100k in gold. First priorities are to upgrading Vyse's weapons, armor, and ship's cannons. The seeds may help, but beating the game as fast as possible is of utmost importance.

Keep up the good work on the test run. A little competition can go quite the long way. Grin

Interesting idea you have with the moonberries and Drachma.  I'll consider it.  Let me explain my reasoning for getting lambda burst.

Pyri may be cheaper, but it uses a magic point.  I'm trying to avoid using any magic in battles as much as possible so that I won't have to stop and gather/use magic droplets to refill my magic points.  Hence why I utilize item boxes.  Perhaps at first I'll have Aika use Pyri, but once she can one shot any overworld (and some dungeon) using lambda burst, I won't use any more magic points that way, plus it only requires spirit points.  That way I can save the magic points for green healing magic for use outside of battle (and in ship battles on occasion) and save the healing crystals for in battle (again, because they don't use either a magic point or any spirit points).  Plus, the magic would act as a buffer should I run out of crystals (I don't think I will, but with this game, you never know).

I don't exactly get what you mean by 'broken' though...

As for Illchymes...I'm hesitant to recruit him.  Getting any of the crew adds to the time on an already long game.  Plus, money is going to be somewhat tight as I'll mostly be relying on Discoveries and battles to earn gold, especially since you cannot advance the story at one point without having 100k in gold.  First priorities are to upgrading Vyse's weapons, armor, and ship's cannons.  The seeds may help, but beating the game as fast as possible is of utmost importance.

Keep up the good work on the test run.  A little competition can go quite the long way.  ;D

AmazingAmpharos

2009-04-21 04:19:34 am

Junglechief and I are real life friends (he speaks better than he types!), and we've been discussing this a lot so I can clarify a lot of things.

Money is a very big issue in this run true. However, consider that you spend the 100,000 right after Enrique joins the party. What do you do with the money you can get from all the discoveries along the way in Yafutoma and the Lands of Ice? Also, once you can fly above and below the clouds, you can get a ton of discoveries really quickly; the ones that move especially are going to be a pain to get quickly but sell for stupid amounts of money. After the 100,000, the only real expenses you have are going to be buying ship parts in Esparanza, Yafutoma, and Crescent Island and maybe buying a Surian Blade for Vyse in Yafutoma and maybe even Enrique's weapon there depending on whether a certain strategy I've been cooking up pans out. That's not much money at all, especially since you really don't need to buy that much for your ship (you really don't need 4 quality weapons, and you can probably get away with going pretty light on the ship armor).

On the other hand, Ramirez is seriously like an hour long fight in a normal runthrough if you go to him underleveled with low quality weapons (Vyse is probably going to have the Thunder Cutlass that Yelligar drops at endgame). Actually, Vyse's weapon is doomed to be poor at endgame unless you recruit Ryu-kan which I'm 100% sure is not worth it. With the Paranta Seeds, he could go down as quickly as 3 turns per on foot form. You could get almost every discovery in the world to buy Paranta Seeds with that time savings alone, and if you are smart, you can get most of the discoveries without even going very far out of your way which is probably enough to make endgame bosses very fast instead of very slow.

Ilchymis is also a seriously fast recruitment. If you get him right after Yelligar, you have almost zero travel to reach his island. Even before, it's a fairly palatable side trip (the big question is how much time it saves in the Yelligar fight itself which is really unclear). The main difficulty is in learning Riselem (Fina needs 282 mexp in silver to get it from her base stats), but the current plan is that learning red probably stops being useful after Aika learns Pyres (which happens in Ixa'taka) so there's no real reason not to permanently set everyone to silver other than possible quick diversions to get Fina Sacri (out of battle healing) and Crystali (maybe useful against De Loco, testing needed) and of course using Vyse's correct element weapon in bosses. If you were thinking about Quika for Gregorio, don't worry. Enrique comes with it.

Pyri uses a magic point, but you get quite a few forced heals early in the game. Also, the last boss in Valua drops 10x Magic Droplets. The main problem Lambda Burst has is that it simply costs too much SP. You aren't going to have enough SP to use it on turn 1 until at the very earliest North Ocean and probably more like sailing back from Daccat's Island. If you can't use it on turn 1, you can do better by having everyone focus on turn 1 and having Vyse use Rain of Swords on turn 2 (testing shows this is pretty much never necessary earlygame since Pyri is amazing and wins on turn 1, but it's still better than Lambda Burst).

Healing items are cheap, and you shouldn't have to do much out of battle healing anyway. In a luck abused run, how many random encounters will you really have that don't end in one turn or in you successfully escaping? At the very least, they should be ending in 2 turns with minimal damage to your party. Also, in general, items are broken because they cost no spirit or MP to use. They're radically better than the spell versions. Consumables as a rule are very cheap as well so they aren't really a big worry to rely on.

The item boxes were one thing we didn't think about. It's too late for the current test run to exploit it, but getting an Electri Box to speed up Antonio 1 and that boss in Shrine Island, a Crystales Box or two in Sailor's Island from the Mystery Merchant to totally destroy the bosses in Valua (expensive at that point!), a Pyri Box in the Catacombs for general utility, and some more Crystales Boxes in Maramba for an easy win against the dragon in the Temple of Pyrnn and maybe Zivilyn Bane (that one drops a Paranta Seed in addition to letting you have an item that sells for a lot).

A recent consideration has been the possibility of learning The Judgment with Enrique as soon as he joins and using that instead of Pirate's Wrath while Enrique is around. The main difference is SP use; you can use The Judgment nearly every turn while Pirate's Wrath is only usable every other turn until you get Drachma back at endgame. It's a bit dicey whether it works out against real bosses with the numbers; the test run should hopefully clarify this.

Some other planning points we're working on and are unsure about...

Is Khadzim (the gunner in Nasrad) worth it? Going to Nasrad after it is destroyed is definitely worth it to sell Daccat's Coin and maybe do a few other quick things, and this guy is a very small diversion. He powers up the main cannons which are obviously used a lot, but we're unclear on how much of a boost he gives and whether it's enough to make the time to climb up and down a ladder and talk to him worth it (saving a single round in any ship battle probably makes him time neutral, seriously). He's the only optional crew member other than Illychimis that is seriously worth considering and a pretty unclear case.

Can the boxes be used indefinitely without breaking? Can the same box be used by multiple party members on the same turn? We really know very little about them since neither of us ever used them playing normally. If they can be luck abused to never break, that obviously dramatically increases their utility. Even if there's a limit to how many times they can be used, figuring out what the limit is for the Electri, Pyri, and Crystales Boxes (and possibly the Pyrum Box; it drops in Daccat's Island and seems really dubious but possibly worth it) is something we need to do. We do intend to do this testing ourselves at some point, but if other people already know, it would be helpful.

At what points do assorted discoveries depreciate? Our current times we sell discoveries are the first time in Sailor's Island, the first time in Maramba, several times in Ixa'taka since he's right there, in Nasrad with Vyse/Gilder (is it possible? I'm pretty sure he won't talk to Aika/Fina), in Nasrad after getting the Delphinus, in Ixa'taka after returning from Yafutoma, and then a few points that change depending on when we get Ilchymis (Nasrad is to be avoided though since the Sailor's Guild is far from the entrance). The first time in Nasrad and some extra points in Ixa'taka could possibly be cut out if we knew more about how discovery pricing with game progress worked. We suspect it's a table where each one can potentially go from "you found what!" to "I've heard rumors" to Domingo finding it, but we have no data to fill the table, and it's pretty unreasonable to fill it out by testing.

Right now the value of the Mace Hand drop in the Catacombs is really up to question. Basically, this would let Drachma do about double damage with Tackle against the two bosses there but otherwise wouldn't be used. Item boxes may render it irrelevant. Also, the test run reveals the Mace Hand is really tough to manipulate to drop; he gave up on it after quite a few hours of trying to get the drop with no luck (though he ended up accepting a very clean run that got 2 moonberry drops and a Pyri Box).

Real numbers for money is obviously really important, and I suspect the test run is the only thing that can answer it. Likewise, knowing what points in the game assorted spirit values will be attained and figuring out the best times to switch weapon colors for magic learning are to be answered by the run; learning Riselem is proving to be a pretty daunting concern as we ask how many random battles are actually worth fighting otherwise and conclude the answer is probably "almost none".

We were actually discussing your run and were really curious how your first segment took 20 minutes. We don't know where you ended it, but you can end a segment with basically no time lost right before Antonio (no reason not to have perfect luck against him). Even if you didn't want to, it's a very, very good idea to end a segment the second you hit the overworld, and that should take well under 20 minutes (of course, his run is probably going to have 100+ segments thanks to overworld abuse; the plan for South Ocean is 0 random encounters). His latest time update is at 3 hours even after Belleza, but with what the test run has taught us, that can be cut down a lot (the item boxes are the big thing that will really speed up bosses, and the overworld was far from optimal pre-Valua). We really hope to be able to have the Delphinus in under 4 hours, but that may not be feasible (Recumen/Belleza took 20 minutes, and De Loco 2/Grendel will probably take even longer...).

Anyway, yeah, competition is always good. Luckily, he's not selfish about wanting to necessarily have the record for himself so we're posting about our planning; the goal is that in the end the best run possible for this game will be made. This game is one of the best runnable RPGs not to have a run on SDA after all.

Junglechief and I are real life friends (he speaks better than he types!), and we've been discussing this a lot so I can clarify a lot of things.

Money is a very big issue in this run true. However, consider that you spend the 100,000 right after Enrique joins the party. What do you do with the money you can get from all the discoveries along the way in Yafutoma and the Lands of Ice? Also, once you can fly above and below the clouds, you can get a ton of discoveries really quickly; the ones that move especially are going to be a pain to get quickly but sell for stupid amounts of money. After the 100,000, the only real expenses you have are going to be buying ship parts in Esparanza, Yafutoma, and Crescent Island and maybe buying a Surian Blade for Vyse in Yafutoma and maybe even Enrique's weapon there depending on whether a certain strategy I've been cooking up pans out. That's not much money at all, especially since you really don't need to buy that much for your ship (you really don't need 4 quality weapons, and you can probably get away with going pretty light on the ship armor).

On the other hand, Ramirez is seriously like an hour long fight in a normal runthrough if you go to him underleveled with low quality weapons (Vyse is probably going to have the Thunder Cutlass that Yelligar drops at endgame). Actually, Vyse's weapon is doomed to be poor at endgame unless you recruit Ryu-kan which I'm 100% sure is not worth it. With the Paranta Seeds, he could go down as quickly as 3 turns per on foot form. You could get almost every discovery in the world to buy Paranta Seeds with that time savings alone, and if you are smart, you can get most of the discoveries without even going very far out of your way which is probably enough to make endgame bosses very fast instead of very slow.

Ilchymis is also a seriously fast recruitment. If you get him right after Yelligar, you have almost zero travel to reach his island. Even before, it's a fairly palatable side trip (the big question is how much time it saves in the Yelligar fight itself which is really unclear). The main difficulty is in learning Riselem (Fina needs 282 mexp in silver to get it from her base stats), but the current plan is that learning red probably stops being useful after Aika learns Pyres (which happens in Ixa'taka) so there's no real reason not to permanently set everyone to silver other than possible quick diversions to get Fina Sacri (out of battle healing) and Crystali (maybe useful against De Loco, testing needed) and of course using Vyse's correct element weapon in bosses. If you were thinking about Quika for Gregorio, don't worry. Enrique comes with it.

Pyri uses a magic point, but you get quite a few forced heals early in the game. Also, the last boss in Valua drops 10x Magic Droplets. The main problem Lambda Burst has is that it simply costs too much SP. You aren't going to have enough SP to use it on turn 1 until at the very earliest North Ocean and probably more like sailing back from Daccat's Island. If you can't use it on turn 1, you can do better by having everyone focus on turn 1 and having Vyse use Rain of Swords on turn 2 (testing shows this is pretty much never necessary earlygame since Pyri is amazing and wins on turn 1, but it's still better than Lambda Burst).

Healing items are cheap, and you shouldn't have to do much out of battle healing anyway. In a luck abused run, how many random encounters will you really have that don't end in one turn or in you successfully escaping? At the very least, they should be ending in 2 turns with minimal damage to your party. Also, in general, items are broken because they cost no spirit or MP to use. They're radically better than the spell versions. Consumables as a rule are very cheap as well so they aren't really a big worry to rely on.

The item boxes were one thing we didn't think about. It's too late for the current test run to exploit it, but getting an Electri Box to speed up Antonio 1 and that boss in Shrine Island, a Crystales Box or two in Sailor's Island from the Mystery Merchant to totally destroy the bosses in Valua (expensive at that point!), a Pyri Box in the Catacombs for general utility, and some more Crystales Boxes in Maramba for an easy win against the dragon in the Temple of Pyrnn and maybe Zivilyn Bane (that one drops a Paranta Seed in addition to letting you have an item that sells for a lot).

A recent consideration has been the possibility of learning The Judgment with Enrique as soon as he joins and using that instead of Pirate's Wrath while Enrique is around. The main difference is SP use; you can use The Judgment nearly every turn while Pirate's Wrath is only usable every other turn until you get Drachma back at endgame. It's a bit dicey whether it works out against real bosses with the numbers; the test run should hopefully clarify this.

Some other planning points we're working on and are unsure about...

Is Khadzim (the gunner in Nasrad) worth it? Going to Nasrad after it is destroyed is definitely worth it to sell Daccat's Coin and maybe do a few other quick things, and this guy is a very small diversion. He powers up the main cannons which are obviously used a lot, but we're unclear on how much of a boost he gives and whether it's enough to make the time to climb up and down a ladder and talk to him worth it (saving a single round in any ship battle probably makes him time neutral, seriously). He's the only optional crew member other than Illychimis that is seriously worth considering and a pretty unclear case.

Can the boxes be used indefinitely without breaking? Can the same box be used by multiple party members on the same turn? We really know very little about them since neither of us ever used them playing normally. If they can be luck abused to never break, that obviously dramatically increases their utility. Even if there's a limit to how many times they can be used, figuring out what the limit is for the Electri, Pyri, and Crystales Boxes (and possibly the Pyrum Box; it drops in Daccat's Island and seems really dubious but possibly worth it) is something we need to do. We do intend to do this testing ourselves at some point, but if other people already know, it would be helpful.

At what points do assorted discoveries depreciate? Our current times we sell discoveries are the first time in Sailor's Island, the first time in Maramba, several times in Ixa'taka since he's right there, in Nasrad with Vyse/Gilder (is it possible? I'm pretty sure he won't talk to Aika/Fina), in Nasrad after getting the Delphinus, in Ixa'taka after returning from Yafutoma, and then a few points that change depending on when we get Ilchymis (Nasrad is to be avoided though since the Sailor's Guild is far from the entrance). The first time in Nasrad and some extra points in Ixa'taka could possibly be cut out if we knew more about how discovery pricing with game progress worked. We suspect it's a table where each one can potentially go from "you found what!" to "I've heard rumors" to Domingo finding it, but we have no data to fill the table, and it's pretty unreasonable to fill it out by testing.

Right now the value of the Mace Hand drop in the Catacombs is really up to question. Basically, this would let Drachma do about double damage with Tackle against the two bosses there but otherwise wouldn't be used. Item boxes may render it irrelevant. Also, the test run reveals the Mace Hand is really tough to manipulate to drop; he gave up on it after quite a few hours of trying to get the drop with no luck (though he ended up accepting a very clean run that got 2 moonberry drops and a Pyri Box).

Real numbers for money is obviously really important, and I suspect the test run is the only thing that can answer it. Likewise, knowing what points in the game assorted spirit values will be attained and figuring out the best times to switch weapon colors for magic learning are to be answered by the run; learning Riselem is proving to be a pretty daunting concern as we ask how many random battles are actually worth fighting otherwise and conclude the answer is probably "almost none".

We were actually discussing your run and were really curious how your first segment took 20 minutes. We don't know where you ended it, but you can end a segment with basically no time lost right before Antonio (no reason not to have perfect luck against him). Even if you didn't want to, it's a very, very good idea to end a segment the second you hit the overworld, and that should take well under 20 minutes (of course, his run is probably going to have 100+ segments thanks to overworld abuse; the plan for South Ocean is 0 random encounters). His latest time update is at 3 hours even after Belleza, but with what the test run has taught us, that can be cut down a lot (the item boxes are the big thing that will really speed up bosses, and the overworld was far from optimal pre-Valua). We really hope to be able to have the Delphinus in under 4 hours, but that may not be feasible (Recumen/Belleza took 20 minutes, and De Loco 2/Grendel will probably take even longer...).

Anyway, yeah, competition is always good. Luckily, he's not selfish about wanting to necessarily have the record for himself so we're posting about our planning; the goal is that in the end the best run possible for this game will be made. This game is one of the best runnable RPGs not to have a run on SDA after all.

getter77

2009-04-21 06:11:37 am

100% runs=great to watch

Wow...so happy that the random item box thing I found actually proved to be this useful. Good luck to all runners and runner teams as applicable! 8)

Zyre

2009-04-21 12:00:05 pm

The Speedrunning Teacher

Thanks for clarifying things for me Ampharos. What you and Junglechief87 have there may be the better plan for one-shotting the weak monsters. I had forgotten about how much SP is generated per character (I'm in the process of noting what levels they earn Spirit and Max Spirit stats) and how that limits Aika's Lambda Burst. I'll hold off on her learning it, but perhaps it still would be better to have her learn it so when she can use it on the first turn, one-shot the monsters, and the animation can be skipped. I can't remember off the top of my head (and I'm at work so I can't find out real quick), but I don't think the magic animations can be skipped at all. But for the beginning, I think your plan will work better.

Enrique learning Judgement is a possibility to consider, let's crunch the numbers to see if it may be better than Vyse's Pirate's Wrath for bosses.

Gear grease will be important (I forgot how useful they were until I looked it up) for the ship battles, especially those that require the use of the S. Cannon.

I can clarify a few of your other unsure ideas.

Khadzim is just going to have to be decided by the numbers. We'll have to do a few battles with him and a few without to see the difference and determine if he's worth it or not.

I'm playing through the game normally as well and taking note of when the characters gain a Spirit stat point and a Max Spirit stat point. I'll let you know what they are once I've got a good table ready.

Spell boxes don't break randomly, nor are they infinite. They all contain either 3-4 charges or 7-8 charges. How many charges is based on the spell. Pyri, I believe, would be a 7-8 charge box. Riselem is a 3-4 charge box. I don't know what determines whether you get that one extra charge or not, but you can plan on having at least a certain number of charges per box.

As for the spell plan you've got...that's a good idea. I would go as far as Sylenis in Purple though, mainly because some ship and gigas (Zelos comes to mind) battles use a lot of magic attacks. If you silence them, they basically sit there and let you pound on them for a few rounds.

As for that 20 minute segment, that was from the moment I hit 'New Game' to the save point just outside the Shrine Island dungeon. I ran into two random encounters total, one on Alfonso's ship (which I fought to try for an electri box drop from the soldiers), and the other on the way to Pirate's Isle (which I ran from). With a perfect setup (electri drop from the forced encounter and no encounters on ship or overworld), that time will drop to about 16-17 minutes. The way I've planned the segments is to save at dungeon entrances (to luck manip any good drops, number of encounters, etc.) and right before bosses (to manip a good fight against them) mainly. Traveling in the sky will have to have some leeway for random encounters, but too much will require a reset (when recording anyways). Any encounters in the overworld will have to either be run from, or one-shotted for the magic exp.

Thanks for clarifying things for me Ampharos.  What you and Junglechief87 have there may be the better plan for one-shotting the weak monsters.  I had forgotten about how much SP is generated per character (I'm in the process of noting what levels they earn Spirit and Max Spirit stats) and how that limits Aika's Lambda Burst.  I'll hold off on her learning it, but perhaps it still would be better to have her learn it so when she can use it on the first turn, one-shot the monsters, and the animation can be skipped.  I can't remember off the top of my head (and I'm at work so I can't find out real quick), but I don't think the magic animations can be skipped at all.  But for the beginning, I think your plan will work better.

Enrique learning Judgement is a possibility to consider, let's crunch the numbers to see if it may be better than Vyse's Pirate's Wrath for bosses.

Gear grease will be important (I forgot how useful they were until I looked it up) for the ship battles, especially those that require the use of the S. Cannon.

I can clarify a few of your other unsure ideas.

Khadzim is just going to have to be decided by the numbers.  We'll have to do a few battles with him and a few without to see the difference and determine if he's worth it or not.

I'm playing through the game normally as well and taking note of when the characters gain a Spirit stat point and a Max Spirit stat point.  I'll let you know what they are once I've got a good table ready.

Spell boxes don't break randomly, nor are they infinite.  They all contain either 3-4 charges or 7-8 charges.  How many charges is based on the spell.  Pyri, I believe, would be a 7-8 charge box.  Riselem is a 3-4 charge box.  I don't know what determines whether you get that one extra charge or not, but you can plan on having at least a certain number of charges per box.

As for the spell plan you've got...that's a good idea.  I would go as far as Sylenis in Purple though, mainly because some ship and gigas (Zelos comes to mind) battles use a lot of magic attacks.  If you silence them, they basically sit there and let you pound on them for a few rounds.

As for that 20 minute segment, that was from the moment I hit 'New Game' to the save point just outside the Shrine Island dungeon.  I ran into two random encounters total, one on Alfonso's ship (which I fought to try for an electri box drop from the soldiers), and the other on the way to Pirate's Isle (which I ran from).  With a perfect setup (electri drop from the forced encounter and no encounters on ship or overworld), that time will drop to about 16-17 minutes.  The way I've planned the segments is to save at dungeon entrances (to luck manip any good drops, number of encounters, etc.) and right before bosses (to manip a good fight against them) mainly.  Traveling in the sky will have to have some leeway for random encounters, but too much will require a reset (when recording anyways).  Any encounters in the overworld will have to either be run from, or one-shotted for the magic exp.

VorpalEdge

2009-04-21 12:21:24 pm

welcome to the machine

Quote from Zyre:

Spell boxes don't break randomly, nor are they infinite. They all contain either 3-4 charges or 7-8 charges. How many charges is based on the spell. Pyri, I believe, would be a 7-8 charge box. Riselem is a 3-4 charge box. I don't know what determines whether you get that one extra charge or not, but you can plan on having at least a certain number of charges per box.

While either 3-4 or 7-8 charges sounds about right, it's not based on the spell. When fighting Gleeox for my (crappy) testrun, the spellbox sometimes broke at 3-4 uses, and sometimes it lasted until the executioner fight. There's some randomness in there above and beyond whether or not you get one extra charge.

Zyre

2009-04-21 12:29:02 pm

The Speedrunning Teacher

Quote from VorpalEdge:

While either 3-4 or 7-8 charges sounds about right, it's not based on the spell. When fighting Gleeox for my (crappy) testrun, the spellbox sometimes broke at 3-4 uses, and sometimes it lasted until the executioner fight. There's some randomness in there above and beyond whether or not you get one extra charge.

Found a good FAQ on gamefaqs about items and it lists charges on a per spell basis. Located here. It gives an idea of how many charges there are, but like you said, there may be some more randomness to it.

Zyre

2009-05-12 01:10:44 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

Exceptionally small update.

I'm still going on this project. The first segment is being a pain in the #%^ because I need that Electri box to drop from the soldiers in the very first battle of the game and it only has a drop rate of 1%! But once I get that first segment done, then the other segments should fall quickly into line (I currently don't have any other necessary drops, and if I do have some I believe they will have a drop rate higher than 1%).

Just thought you guys would like to know. Wink