Secret of Mana

2014-07-11 05:54:49 am

What's that gemma?

Yaga explained the reappearance timing in the chat immediately afterward, so I should be good on that one.

I got thrown off by this sentence:

Quote:

Essentially, the strat is to get the overcharge started ASAP (and I mean this, there are very few frames to waste here) and immediately slash at Fire Gigas with the girl.

I read this as two separate commands, rather than two sequenced commands. This was particularly likely since I consider Boy's initial charging time to be a part of the overcharge.

I think a clearer instruction would be:
Start the battle with the Boy charging, then as soon as he reaches charge level 1, do the weapon swaps for the overcharge glitch then attack with the Girl. The window of opportunity to do the weapon swaps and the Girl's attack is very tight. If you're quick enough...

StingerPA

2014-07-11 08:27:36 am

Ok, I see the problem you had in my wording. I believe I made it clearer in the Boss FAQ.

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2014-07-28 10:58:30 am

2014-07-15 05:47:35 pm

Here's something else of use: I found a guy by the name of Regrs on the GameFAQs forums who's done a lot of research into the game, and he happened to have done some work on the AI scripts in the game. He gave me the ones he had finished, but there's still some holes.

Edited with updating version from below: http://pastebin.com/rKKmvdVN

The first one that struck me was the Doom's Wall special attack conditions. He'll use Cave-in on the closest character, and his rock assault on the furthest one. This means you should position the boy inbetween the two other characters to try and keep him from getting destroyed.

I'm sure there's more than that we can find useful, so have at it. Maybe he'll provide the AI for more bosses as well, which would be nice.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-07-15 06:11:56 pm

Yagamoth: 2014-07-15 06:02:52 pm

2014-07-15 05:57:24 pm

INTJ

Huh... I actually actually testing Doom Walls stuff, and I did notice that he mostly targeted the character who was the farthest away. But I'd have bet it wasn't always the case.

But in any, awesome find with that Smiley

Quote:

#Note: Due to the way Minotaur calculates distance, he can only cast spells
# if you are extremely North or South of him.

- Gigas simply have a 25% chance to disappear

Not useful, but interesting

Quote:

## Hexas Movement AI is horrible. For some reason it controls his element changes.
## Note that the directions here aren't completely correct, but close enough.
## Stay below him and he'll never even change elements forcing him to spam Dispel & Pygmus Glare.
## As a result of his terra-bad AI, his Sylphid form goes unused.

I always wondered about how that worked.. Also, thinking about it, it might be interesting for 1p1c ^^

StingerPA

2014-07-16 05:08:01 pm

Here's an updated version with Buffy/Vampire scripts included: http://pastebin.com/rKKmvdVN

Looks like they have a 25% chance of landing while they're flying, and a 33% chance of flying while they're on the ground. Sounds about right from my experiences. The one thing that isn't directly answered is when Vampire/Buffy do their little animation where they drop to the ground for an instant, then go right back up to flying. That might be included in the fly%, as just one of the movements they can take.

Yagamoth

2014-07-16 05:17:26 pm

INTJ

I'd assume that's the thing, that they take an action as soon as they land the first time. Which can be fly up immediately again Tongue

So, to get a good start:

25% to land at the start
66% to keep jumping once
60% for the Girl to hit the Vampire once
--> 9.9% chance of happening for a perfect start

StingerPA

2014-07-17 10:12:18 am

In other news, I did a little bit of work on the KB page. I deleted most of the boss info that was previously there, and replaced it with a link to the new Boss FAQ. I also went through the page to adjust things for current strats, like Joch's Barrier skip not being a 2 controller thing, and also mentioning that the Wall Glitch is used in the 1 controller route.

Yagamoth

2014-07-17 10:37:45 am

INTJ

Thank you

StingerPA

2014-07-20 12:18:34 am

Here's something about mana seeds that's probably useless for 1p2c, but I can think of at least one spot in 1 controller where it'll save a second. We already know we can seal the ones with the blue outlines from the left or right sides, but it turns out we can seal normal ones by standing above them and facing up. I'd speculate that mana seeds check for 2 conditions when being sealed, 1) the character hitbox touching the mana seed hitbox, and 2) the character is facing up.

For the 1 controller save, we can use this in the wind palace. Talk to grandpa first, then go right above him and seal the seed there.

I tried to break the water palace sequences by sealing the seed before talking to Jema or Luka in the first cutscenes, but that did no good. I got the animation and text to pop up that said "You have sealed the Mana Seed" or whatever, but it didn't seem to affect triggers at all. I also played up to Jabberwocky, but it didn't change anything I could do there either. I also tried to do this at the Earth Palace, and while I could seal the seed before talking to gnome, it didn't activate the Sprite's memory cutscene. For fun, though, you can do it after talking to Gnome and it puts the characters inside the mana seed stage after the cutscene ends. I haven't tested at any mana seeds past this point, so other testing could prove useful.

Here's something about mana seeds that's probably useless for 1p2c, but I can think of at least one spot in 1 controller where it'll save a second.  We already know we can seal the ones with the blue outlines from the left or right sides, but it turns out we can seal normal ones by standing above them and facing up.  I'd speculate that mana seeds check for 2 conditions when being sealed, 1) the character hitbox touching the mana seed hitbox, and 2) the character is facing up.

For the 1 controller save, we can use this in the wind palace.  Talk to grandpa first, then go right above him and seal the seed there.

I tried to break the water palace sequences by sealing the seed before talking to Jema or Luka in the first cutscenes, but that did no good.  I got the animation and text to pop up that said "You have sealed the Mana Seed" or whatever, but it didn't seem to affect triggers at all.  I also played up to Jabberwocky, but it didn't change anything I could do there either. I also tried to do this at the Earth Palace, and while I could seal the seed before talking to gnome, it didn't activate the Sprite's memory cutscene.  For fun, though, you can do it after talking to Gnome and it puts the characters inside the mana seed stage after the cutscene ends.  I haven't tested at any mana seeds past this point, so other testing could prove useful.

Yagamoth

2014-07-20 12:20:57 am

INTJ

Nice find.. I wonder whether we can circumvent the softlock when skipping the first water palace cutscene by doing that...

StingerPA

2014-07-20 01:12:23 pm

The problem with that is you can't leave the Water Palace after getting up to where Luka and Jema are until after you finish all of the cutscenes. The bridge closes off, so there's nothing you can do about it.

Yagamoth

2014-07-20 01:16:43 pm

INTJ

Yup, just tested that, does not work

StingerPA

2014-07-21 06:04:23 pm

Here's a 3-4 second time saver for 1p2c, and maybe 1 controller as well (does it matter in 1 controller if we have Snapdragon and Hexas killed for experience purposes?). Upon entering Mech Rider III, do a softreset to warp into the map. This skips the text boxes at the beginning of the fight. Unfortunately, this is the only boss after getting the frost neko save that has textboxes at the beginning of the fight itself. Hexas won't work because it just save warps you into the cutscene anyways, Dark Lich doesn't work because it softlocks the game, and Mana Beast doesn't work because that also softlocks the game.

Yagamoth

2014-07-21 06:17:10 pm

INTJ

Oh.. Neat find oô.. It'll also reset all the consumables used on Hexas, that's quite nice

StingerPA

2014-07-21 06:20:24 pm

That's a good point, plus it restores the items used to make the boy and sprite visible again.

StingerPA

2014-07-23 11:47:48 am

Yaga and I spent some time breaking 1p2c some more, but it turns out that we just made the route longer instead Tongue

You can use the multitap to skip Dopples and Watermelon, but it ends up adding Blue Spike, Gorgon Bull, and Lime Slime to the route because it is impossible, even for 2 controllers, to complete the grand palace from the normal entrance without having Lumina and Shade. The way it works is by getting into the grand palace early by disabling the multitap after getting forced out of the grand palace, and because there's a textbox there, you can walk through the walls with invisible characters. The basic route is as follows:

1) Get Flammie
2) Go to Gold City to talk to the trigger guy
3) Go to Southtown to get the Gold Tower Key
4) Gold Tower
5) Go to the Palace of Darkness
6) Set up a Frost Neko save
7) Reset and start a new game, hold softreset on entering the bridge cutscene to set up invisible characters
8) Go to the Grand Palace, enter the doorway with the 3rd controller
9) After getting forced out, disable the multitap while the texbox is still up, and this lets you walk through the walls because of the invisible character in your party
10) Enter the Grand Palace at the normal entrance
11) In the last room before going up to fight Snapdragon, hit the rope pole with a weapon and then walk up the stairs. This overrides the trigger to force you out of the grand palace, and lets you fight Snapdragon.

There is one room in the grand palace that requires you to have both shade and lumina to get by, otherwise we could skip out on steps 2-5, and save a bunch of time that way. It probably would be faster to do this if we could skip Lumina and Shade, but until then, we'll need to continue fighting the Dopples and Watermelon.

Yaga and I spent some time breaking 1p2c some more, but it turns out that we just made the route longer instead :P You can use the multitap to skip Dopples and Watermelon, but it ends up adding Blue Spike, Gorgon Bull, and Lime Slime to the route because it is impossible, even for 2 controllers, to complete the grand palace from the normal entrance without having Lumina and Shade.  The way it works is by getting into the grand palace early by disabling the multitap after getting forced out of the grand palace, and because there's a textbox there, you can walk through the walls with invisible characters.  The basic route is as follows:

1) Get Flammie
2) Go to Gold City to talk to the trigger guy
3) Go to Southtown to get the Gold Tower Key
4) Gold Tower
5) Go to the Palace of Darkness
6) Set up a Frost Neko save
7) Reset and start a new game, hold softreset on entering the bridge cutscene to set up invisible characters
8) Go to the Grand Palace, enter the doorway with the 3rd controller
9) After getting forced out, disable the multitap while the texbox is still up, and this lets you walk through the walls because of the invisible character in your party
10) Enter the Grand Palace at the normal entrance
11) In the last room before going up to fight Snapdragon, hit the rope pole with a weapon and then walk up the stairs.  This overrides the trigger to force you out of the grand palace, and lets you fight Snapdragon.

There is one room in the grand palace that requires you to have both shade and lumina to get by, otherwise we could skip out on steps 2-5, and save a bunch of time that way.  It probably would be faster to do this if we could skip Lumina and Shade, but until then, we'll need to continue fighting the Dopples and Watermelon.

Yagamoth

2014-07-23 12:34:29 pm

INTJ

Does it still count as "1 controller" when you unplug the controller from the main slow to the 3rd slow and then back? Tongue

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-07-23 02:20:41 pm

2014-07-23 01:10:11 pm

What's that gemma?

I thought about that before Yaga, and I decided that I think it does [edit for clarity: that it does count as an additional controller being used]. A run that does that sort of stuff is using the multitap itself as a controller, manipulating the game via the signals it sends to controller port 2.

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2014-07-23 01:52:11 pm

2014-07-23 01:51:38 pm

I think it would still fall under 2 controllers because there are 2 controllers enabled at once ingame, even if you're only using 1 physical controller.

This might be something to ask an SDA person.

Yagamoth

2014-07-23 01:54:42 pm

INTJ

I agree with Stinger. Also, you could actually do the backwards grand palace with that method

Yagamoth

2014-07-23 10:02:44 pm

INTJ

Almost forgot to mention: Stinger, I did test what I thought of in our softlock% race, activate the earth seed before talking to Gnome. It works. The only thing it seems to change is, that it doesn't remove the enemies inside the Earth Temple. But I played up to the upper lands and everything was just fine. So that cutscene can be easily skipped...

Now I wonder, whether you can skip activating the earth seed altogether... When I tried skipping it back when I tested it originally I saw the enemies inside the earth temple after I escape-roped out and assumed, that it doesn't work. But this is not necessarily the case..

StingerPA

2014-07-24 11:43:46 am

I just tested, and Phanna does appear in Pandora. So once we get Gnome, we can completely skip out on the mana seed cutscenes.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-07-25 05:32:16 am

Crow!: 2014-07-25 05:31:27 am

2014-07-25 05:30:44 am

What's that gemma?

According to the game's stated plot, Phanna wasn't why you needed the Sprite to interact with the seed, it was knowledge that the Sprite came from the upper lands. So, I wouldn't be confident in the success of skipping the Earth mana seed cutscene until after I met with Grandpa in the Sprite Village.

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2014-07-25 09:36:22 am

StingerPA: 2014-07-25 09:36:21 am

StingerPA: 2014-07-25 09:35:44 am

2014-07-25 09:27:42 am

That's not an issue. I completed 2 runs (1p2c) yesterday that skipped the earth seed. It's a free 28 second time saver for your next PB.

Crow!

2014-07-25 10:14:18 am

What's that gemma?

Cool.

I suppose the next question is, in 1p1c, how much time is lost in the long term by skipping the Earth seed, between losing the mana power bonus and missing out on the level 3 -> level 4 magic experience in the Northern Ruins. I suspect the correct answer is going to be to use Yaga's original suggestion of swapping the order of sealing the seed and Gnome to skip the post-seed conversation.