Secret of Mana

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2014-04-26 11:16:43 pm

2014-04-26 11:16:02 pm

Quote from Crak Atak:

hey there SoM runners, ive been trying to get a 1P2C run as practice for co-op. My run pretty much keeps dying at around 2 hours at Hexas, have no clue how to do this boss properly. I think my positioning is off because Sprite dies quickly before he can get cast off or boss moves away and screws my world. Im able to get the correct charge for the boy and get maybe one or two hits in before I die. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

First of all, you'll need to choose which technique are you using on Hexas. There's the standard slash method, and the spin lunge charge attack. The standard slash is faster, but far more difficult. It gains a net total of 2 seconds over the run, and has more complicated menus which will abruptly change what you've been doing for the last 1 1/2 hours. For this setup, you'll need to move both the barreled girl and charging boy into position at the same time. The boy should move to the left side of Hexas, about even with her midsection. The girl just needs to move straight up. When you get the correct attack, you will release, and instantly open the Girl's menu at the same time because her barrel will drop as soon as the charge attack is released. Use Cure Water or something (maybe candies if you have a surplus), and this will protect her from attacks. At this point, you'll want to swap the 2nd controller over to the Sprite and use him to buffer the charge attacks and use candies or have the girl cast on herself. Hexas only takes 5 hits, so you'll probably only need to protect the girl 3 or 4 times.

The spin lunge loses those 2 seconds, but is far more manageable to me. For one, menus are more straight forward, and the actual fight execution is much simpler as Hexas can't actually do anything to you if you get the base setup correct. First off, you'll move the barreled Sprite into position by pressing straight up to immobilize Hexas. Next, move the Boy to the lower-left side of Hexas, diagonal to her body. When you get the spin lunge (or quick spin), release and instantly open the Sprite's menu to cast Slowdown on Hexas. After the first release, the boy will have lunged up to above Hexas, and all you need to do is point the boy to face down, and then you can release from there. The timings work out that you can release your charge attacks and cast right after to keep Hexas immobilized and unable to do anything.

[quote="Crak Atak"]hey there SoM runners, ive been trying to get a 1P2C run as practice for co-op. My run pretty much keeps dying at around 2 hours at Hexas, have no clue how to do this boss properly. I think my positioning is off because Sprite dies quickly before he can get cast off or boss moves away and screws my world. Im able to get the correct charge for the boy and get maybe one or two hits in before I die. Any help would be greatly appreciated.[/quote]
First of all, you'll need to choose which technique are you using on Hexas.  There's the standard slash method, and the spin lunge charge attack.  The standard slash is faster, but far more difficult. It gains a net total of 2 seconds over the run, and has more complicated menus which will abruptly change what you've been doing for the last 1 1/2 hours.  For this setup, you'll need to move both the barreled girl and charging boy into position at the same time.  The boy should move to the left side of Hexas, about even with her midsection.  The girl just needs to move straight up. When you get the correct attack, you will release, and instantly open the Girl's menu at the same time because her barrel will drop as soon as the charge attack is released.  Use Cure Water or something (maybe candies if you have a surplus), and this will protect her from attacks.  At this point, you'll want to swap the 2nd controller over to the Sprite and use him to buffer the charge attacks and use candies or have the girl cast on herself.  Hexas only takes 5 hits, so you'll probably only need to protect the girl 3 or 4 times.

The spin lunge loses those 2 seconds, but is far more manageable to me.  For one, menus are more straight forward, and the actual fight execution is much simpler as Hexas can't actually do anything to you if you get the base setup correct.  First off, you'll move the barreled Sprite into position by pressing straight up to immobilize Hexas.  Next, move the Boy to the lower-left side of Hexas, diagonal to her body.  When you get the spin lunge (or quick spin), release and instantly open the Sprite's menu to cast Slowdown on Hexas.  After the first release, the boy will have lunged up to above Hexas, and all you need to do is point the boy to face down, and then you can release from there.  The timings work out that you can release your charge attacks and cast right after to keep Hexas immobilized and unable to do anything.

Crak Atak

2014-04-27 02:03:07 pm

Hax I used all of my strengthz

I tried spin lunge method, worked WAY better for a few tries. I think with enough practice I can get the timing down. I was not understanding the immobilize timing before. Thanks a bunch stinger.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-04-29 12:44:44 pm

Crow!: 2014-04-29 12:01:04 pm

Crow!: 2014-04-29 11:58:23 am

Crow!: 2014-04-29 11:53:18 am

Crow!: 2014-04-29 11:51:44 am

Crow!: 2014-04-29 11:51:34 am

Crow!: 2014-04-29 11:50:57 am

Crow!: 2014-04-29 11:50:41 am

Crow!: 2014-04-29 11:43:45 am

Crow!: 2014-04-29 11:42:39 am

Crow!: 2014-04-29 11:24:34 am

2014-04-29 11:15:04 am

What's that gemma?

I did some research into 1 controller Hexas. It appears that the disastrous color shift is an action she will sometimes take when your party is too far away from her.

Which color she shifts to is a function of your position relative to her. If you're too far left, she turns blue and casts Freeze and Acid Rain. If you're too far right, she turns red and casts Lava Wave and Fireball. If you're too far up, she turns brown and casts Gem Missile and Land Slide. If she's done a color shift, you can potentially undo it by moving below her torso, which will make the next color shift action return her to the default.

It is therefore essential (and not merely convenient) to do the up/left dash with the Boy selected, so that the Girl is always right in Hexas's face while you're above her (as the Girl is at the end of the AI train when the Boy dashes up/left).

Some notes regarding the updates to 1 controller boss fights, post swap-retention tech:

Kilroy is a no-go for swap retaining the WCG. While missing a hit against Kilroy is irritating, sacrificing control of the Girl reduces the odds that the second hit can be scored. Recovering from a Moogle is much more difficult with the Girl's barrel down, too. The odds that swapping for a second hit will be profitable is just less than the odds that it will be costly.

Jabberwocky is a good target, as the primary problem with him is finding time to charge up should the first attack miss. For now, I'm casting Stone Saber as I walk from the seed to Luka. Luka's first text boxes don't require the party to gather, so it proceeds uninterrputed even as the stone saber bolts stun the party.

Killing Great Viper with swap retained WCG has essentially all the problems that killing the Dragon Worm does. The arena is slightly less bad, but having the opportunity to land a hit is far from guaranteed. The risk/reward ratio for killing it with WCG doesn't seem particularly improved from the last time I reached the conclusion that I should use Thunderbolt.

Casting magic on Mech Rider 2 still solves the problem of how to get the Boy aggroed without triggering missiles later on. I'll swap retain to get two shots at hitting the boss, but I'm still going to cast Land Slide.

Level 1 Exploder does next to zero damage to Snap Dragon, and Freeze isn't an option either, so skipping Lime Slime's Salamando practice means going for a WCG-only Snap Dragon.

Should Hexas do a color change (see the beginning of this post for why this should never happen), and should Hexas also move to the bottom center of the map so that you can't revert her to normal, then the Barrel is rendered irrelevant and swap-retained WCGs are the order of the day.

For Snow Dragon, enter the fight with Lucid Barrier active on the whole party. Snow Dragon gets at least one shot at damaging your party, so having one barrier goes a long way toward not letting him escape. I've attached to this post the Dragon's hitbox. Notice that the Dragon's casting animation is quite long, and he is invulnerable for the entirety of it.

The Mana Beast requires some drilling; the timings (particularly when alternating Dispel and physical attacks) is different from before. Swapping into the Sprite is dangerous; if the Mana Beast decides to cast Lucid Beam as the Sprite's stamina recovers, you could find yourself missing out on two hits.

I did some research into 1 controller Hexas.  It appears that the disastrous color shift is an action she will sometimes take when your party is too far away from her.

Which color she shifts to is a function of your position relative to her.  If you're too far left, she turns blue and casts Freeze and Acid Rain.  If you're too far right, she turns red and casts Lava Wave and Fireball.  If you're too far up, she turns brown and casts Gem Missile and Land Slide.  If she's done a color shift, you can potentially undo it by moving below her torso, which will make the next color shift action return her to the default.

It is therefore essential (and not merely convenient) to do the up/left dash with the Boy selected, so that the Girl is always right in Hexas's face while you're above her (as the Girl is at the end of the AI train when the Boy dashes up/left).

Some notes regarding the updates to 1 controller boss fights, post swap-retention tech:

Kilroy is a no-go for swap retaining the WCG.  While missing a hit against Kilroy is irritating, sacrificing control of the Girl reduces the odds that the second hit can be scored.  Recovering from a Moogle is much more difficult with the Girl's barrel down, too.  The odds that swapping for a second hit will be profitable is just less than the odds that it will be costly.

Jabberwocky is a good target, as the primary problem with him is finding time to charge up should the first attack miss.  For now, I'm casting Stone Saber as I walk from the seed to Luka.  Luka's first text boxes don't require the party to gather, so it proceeds uninterrputed even as the stone saber bolts stun the party.

Killing Great Viper with swap retained WCG has essentially all the problems that killing the Dragon Worm does.  The arena is slightly less bad, but having the opportunity to land a hit is far from guaranteed.  The risk/reward ratio for killing it with WCG doesn't seem particularly improved from the last time I reached the conclusion that I should use Thunderbolt.

Casting magic on Mech Rider 2 still solves the problem of how to get the Boy aggroed without triggering missiles later on.  I'll swap retain to get two shots at hitting the boss, but I'm still going to cast Land Slide.

Level 1 Exploder does next to zero damage to Snap Dragon, and Freeze isn't an option either, so skipping Lime Slime's Salamando practice means going for a WCG-only Snap Dragon.

Should Hexas do a color change (see the beginning of this post for why this should never happen), and should Hexas also move to the bottom center of the map so that you can't revert her to normal, then the Barrel is rendered irrelevant and swap-retained WCGs are the order of the day.

For Snow Dragon, enter the fight with Lucid Barrier active on the whole party.  Snow Dragon gets at least one shot at damaging your party, so having one barrier goes a long way toward not letting him escape.  I've attached to this post the Dragon's hitbox.  Notice that the Dragon's casting animation is quite long, and he is invulnerable for the entirety of it.

The Mana Beast requires some drilling; the timings (particularly when alternating Dispel and physical attacks) is different from before.  Swapping into the Sprite is dangerous; if the Mana Beast decides to cast Lucid Beam as the Sprite's stamina recovers, you could find yourself missing out on two hits.

Attachment:

SnowDragonHitbox.png

Yagamoth

2014-04-30 04:24:30 am

INTJ

Interesting, thank you for the research

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-05-01 12:24:37 am

Crow!: 2014-05-01 12:23:26 am

2014-05-01 12:22:01 am

What's that gemma?

The trap hitbox of Lullabuds is very off-center, aiming far to the right of the flower itself. Approaching them from the left will spring the trap harmlessly, so long as you don't actually push the enemy.

This means that, on the way from the Water Palace to the Potos Cannon, if you already have your sword level, you can safely disarm the Lullabud that blocks the choke point just south of Potos by simply walking near it and waiting half a second; no attack is required.

Attachment:

LullabudHitbox.png

StingerPA

2014-05-06 05:30:22 pm

So, I've taken another look at 1p2c Hexas, and it turns out I'm dumb. Menus don't need to be changed one bit. All you do is have the girl invisible for the grand palace as usual, then once you get to Hexas, have the Sprite barrel himself as preparation. Inside the Hexas fight, the steps go as follows:

1) Move the Boy Up-Left and the Sprite Up at the beginning until the Sprite is touching Hexas
2) Press X to open the Girl's menu to swap the sword/spear, do that twice to start the overcharge
3) Get the standard slash charge, and release, then open the Sprite's menu using Y, and have him use a Candy on himself
4) Swap to the Girl, and use her for the rest of the fight, releasing overcharges and press X to have the Sprite use candies

At this point, you should probably have released 2-3 charge attacks before needing to use another candy, so you'll need to adjust to what is actually happening in the fight. You'll likely need 2 candies at minimum for this, although if you're really ballsy, you can do this with only 1. 3 candies will likely be the average used, and you can use more if you have them to spare just for added safety in the fight. My final estimation for how much this saves is 7 seconds, so I wouldn't advise it until getting to the 2:10 or below range.

So, I've taken another look at 1p2c Hexas, and it turns out I'm dumb. Menus don't need to be changed one bit.   All you do is have the girl invisible for the grand palace as usual, then once you get to Hexas, have the Sprite barrel himself as preparation.  Inside the Hexas fight, the steps go as follows:

1) Move the Boy Up-Left and the Sprite Up at the beginning until the Sprite is touching Hexas
2) Press X to open the Girl's menu to swap the sword/spear, do that twice to start the overcharge
3) Get the standard slash charge, and release, then open the Sprite's menu using Y, and have him use a Candy on himself
4) Swap to the Girl, and use her for the rest of the fight, releasing overcharges and press X to have the Sprite use candies

At this point, you should probably have released 2-3 charge attacks before needing to use another candy, so you'll need to adjust to what is actually happening in the fight.  You'll likely need 2 candies at minimum for this, although if you're really ballsy, you can do this with only 1.  3 candies will likely be the average used, and you can use more if you have them to spare just for added safety in the fight.  My final estimation for how much this saves is 7 seconds, so I wouldn't advise it until getting to the 2:10 or below range.

Crow!

2014-05-08 04:08:31 pm

What's that gemma?

Stinger did some research into the swap retention's frame rules while I was streaming earlier today. Here's a transcript of some of the chat. I have inserted some of the questions I asked on stream from memory.

Quote:

Stingerpa: it's official, I hate frame rules
Stingerpa: swaps are dumb as hell
Stingerpa: swaps consistently occur on the 2nd frame of frame 3 of the 5-frame rule
Stingerpa: yes, there are 2 frames of frame 3 if you swap characters
Overfiendvip: A sub-frame?
Stingerpa: nope, it's a full frame
Overfiendvip: So I can't make a sub-pixel joke
Crow: I thought Secret of Mana was on a 4 frame rule?
Stingerpa: no, it's 5 frames in SoM
Doomathontex: I'm guessing that extra frame is due to lag?
Stingerpa: yep, it's a lag frame
Johncarls: i enjoy your SoM runs stinger keep it up
Stingerpa: no, it's only a lag frame if you swap characters
Stingerpa: so you lose 1 frame per character switch
Overfiendvip: So it's time to start optimizing around minimizing character swaps, gotta make sure those frames don't happen
Stingerpa: from what I'm seeing, retention will not be 100% consistent until we find a way to count frame rules in the middle of a run
Stingerpa: it's a 2 frame window
Stingerpa: but those 2 frames are variable based on what frame you pressed select to swap characters
Stingerpa: you need to press B on the 2nd or 3rd frame of the frame rule
Crow: so, if we don't know where we are in the frame rules, what are the odds that we'll happen to get the swap retention right?
Stingerpa: I'll look into that next
Stingerpa: oh, one positive thing about the retention
Stingerpa: it's better to hit B too early rather than too later
Stingerpa: it'll cause the character you're controlling currently to attack, and that cancels the swap
Stingerpa: so you'll get another shot
At this point Crow complained about his experiences getting wrecked by bosses when the above happens
Stingerpa: it's a pretty short amount of time before you can just try retaining again
Stingerpa: less than half a second easily
Stingerpa: oh, and slightly useful info, it never works to press select and B at the same time
Stingerpa: and I just timed how long it takes to try again
Stingerpa: whip only has a couple animations
Stingerpa: well, I guess [how long you have to wait] depends on whether you're controlling the girl or sprite
Stingerpa: it's about 32 frames with the standard whip animation
Stingerpa: another note on retention, you can swap characters even while your controlled character is in the middle of an attack animation
Crow: Oh really? I've never succeeded in doing that
Stingerpa: you cannot swap while holding B, which may have been your problem
Stingerpa: using my method of just pressing select->B as fast as possible, I'm getting a 77% success rate of retaining the charge attack
Stingerpa: that can go up easily
Crow: some very strange question
Stingerpa: not sure what you're asking there
Crow: is that 77% assuming that you already know where you are in the frame rule, or can you really get that high a success rate by just guessing? Seems to me like the math you gave would have suggested a 50% success rate at best
Stingerpa: that's including times I hit B too early, and attacked with my controlled character, canceling the swap
Stingerpa: the 23% is when I failed to retain the attack at all
Crow: Oh, so the 77% includes failures (sorry about that word choice Stinger, I regretted it as soon as it left my mouth)
Crow: Or at least, failures that let you try again in the near future.
Crow: Something to the effect of particularly disliking what happens when the attack fails to get released against Boreal Face, Jabberwocky, and Blue Spike
Stingerpa: I dunno if I'd even use it on those guys
Stingerpa: I think I'd rather continue to use double overcharge on Boreal Face
Crow: I have both characters do WCG against that fight, but swap retain for one in case the other misses
Stingerpa: I'll go try that fight
Stingerpa: swap retention is useless against boreal face
Stingerpa: he submerges from the first hit too early

One more thought: since character swaps use frame rules, a character swap could in theory be used to set yourself up to do a frame-rule dependent action correctly. If you could train yourself to do an action X number of frames after seeing the character swap occur, then you'd do that action on the correct frame rule. Catch being that X has to be greater than human reaction time.

As an example, if the Sprite's charge is not needed (say, he's casting magic), then you could start at the girl, swap to the sprite, then train yourself to respond to the "1" moving from the girl's portrait to the Sprite to correctly time the Boy's swap retention. This would be extremely difficult, but it in principle could be done.

Stinger did some research into the swap retention's frame rules while I was streaming earlier today. Here's a transcript of some of the chat.  I have inserted some of the questions I asked on stream from memory.

[quote]Stingerpa: it's official, I hate frame rules
 Stingerpa: swaps are dumb as hell
 Stingerpa: swaps consistently occur on the 2nd frame of frame 3 of the 5-frame rule
 Stingerpa: yes, there are 2 frames of frame 3 if you swap characters
 Overfiendvip: A sub-frame?
 Stingerpa: nope, it's a full frame
 Overfiendvip: So I can't make a sub-pixel joke
 Crow: I thought Secret of Mana was on a 4 frame rule?
 Stingerpa: no, it's 5 frames in SoM
 Doomathontex: I'm guessing that extra frame is due to lag?
 Stingerpa: yep, it's a lag frame
 Johncarls: i enjoy your SoM runs stinger keep it up
 Stingerpa: no, it's only a lag frame if you swap characters
 Stingerpa: so you lose 1 frame per character switch
 Overfiendvip: So it's time to start optimizing around minimizing character swaps, gotta make sure those frames don't happen
 Stingerpa: from what I'm seeing, retention will not be 100% consistent until we find a way to count frame rules in the middle of a run
 Stingerpa: it's a 2 frame window
 Stingerpa: but those 2 frames are variable based on what frame you pressed select to swap characters
 Stingerpa: you need to press B on the 2nd or 3rd frame of the frame rule
 Crow: so, if we don't know where we are in the frame rules, what are the odds that we'll happen to get the swap retention right?
 Stingerpa: I'll look into that next
 Stingerpa: oh, one positive thing about the retention
 Stingerpa: it's better to hit B too early rather than too later
 Stingerpa: it'll cause the character you're controlling currently to attack, and that cancels the swap
 Stingerpa: so you'll get another shot
 At this point Crow complained about his experiences getting wrecked by bosses when the above happens
 Stingerpa: it's a pretty short amount of time before you can just try retaining again
 Stingerpa: less than half a second easily
 Stingerpa: oh, and slightly useful info, it never works to press select and B at the same time
 Stingerpa: and I just timed how long it takes to try again
 Stingerpa: whip only has a couple animations
 Stingerpa: well, I guess [how long you have to wait] depends on whether you're controlling the girl or sprite
 Stingerpa: it's about 32 frames with the standard whip animation
 Stingerpa: another note on retention, you can swap characters even while your controlled character is in the middle of an attack animation
 Crow: Oh really?  I've never succeeded in doing that
 Stingerpa: you cannot swap while holding B, which may have been your problem
 Stingerpa: using my method of just pressing select->B as fast as possible, I'm getting a 77% success rate of retaining the charge attack
 Stingerpa: that can go up easily
 Crow: some very strange question
 Stingerpa: not sure what you're asking there
 Crow: is that 77% assuming that you already know where you are in the frame rule, or can you really get that high a success rate by just guessing? Seems to me like the math you gave would have suggested a 50% success rate at best
 Stingerpa: that's including times I hit B too early, and attacked with my controlled character, canceling the swap
 Stingerpa: the 23% is when I failed to retain the attack at all
 Crow: Oh, so the 77% includes failures (sorry about that word choice Stinger, I regretted it as soon as it left my mouth)
 Crow: Or at least, failures that let you try again in the near future.
 Crow: Something to the effect of particularly disliking what happens when the attack fails to get released against Boreal Face, Jabberwocky, and Blue Spike
 Stingerpa: I dunno if I'd even use it on those guys
 Stingerpa: I think I'd rather continue to use double overcharge on Boreal Face
 Crow: I have both characters do WCG against that fight, but swap retain for one in case the other misses
 Stingerpa: I'll go try that fight
 Stingerpa: swap retention is useless against boreal face
 Stingerpa: he submerges from the first hit too early
[/quote]

One more thought: since character swaps use frame rules, a character swap could in theory be used to set yourself up to do a frame-rule dependent action correctly.  If you could train yourself to do an action X number of frames after seeing the character swap occur, then you'd do that action on the correct frame rule.  Catch being that X has to be greater than human reaction time.

As an example, if the Sprite's charge is not needed (say, he's casting magic), then you could start at the girl, swap to the sprite, then train yourself to respond to the "1" moving from the girl's portrait to the Sprite to correctly time the Boy's swap retention.  This would be extremely difficult, but it in principle could be done.

StingerPA

2014-05-08 04:43:10 pm

I've been doing a lot of 1 Controller testing today with new strats using WCG retention, and here's my discoveries on the Sylphid line of bosses.

Great Viper: Not too bad with WCG using some safe strats. What I did was cast Thunderbolt 3 times to begin the fight, and that meant it only took 1 WCG hit to finish him off. This gains 59 seconds over casting Sylphid the entire time.

Minotaur: He's actually worse to fight with WCG than Great Viper, mainly because of having an evasion stat. I ran a couple different scenarios here. First of all, if you decide to use WCG on Great Viper, and then cast magic on Minotaur, it will cost you 32 seconds over old strats because of having Sylphid at a low level. Using WCG on Minotaur saves 31 seconds over old strats.

Gorgon Bull: There's 3 scenarios here that can happen. Using WCG on Great Viper and Minotaur means that sylphid will have only 4 casts on it, and that has a couple of consequences. Level 0 and 1 Thunderbolts are impossible to get the quick MP restore even with Midge Mallet because it has a different animation from the level 2 and 3 Thunderbolts. This also results in needing to cast Thunderbolt a total of 36 times, over double what was previously needed. In total, using WCG on Viper and Minotaur means you will lose 59 seconds on Gorgon Bull from additional casts. The next idea here is using WCG on Great Viper, but resorting to casting on Minotaur. This starts Gorgon Bull at a slightly lower level, but it's only 2 casts short, or 7 seconds of additional casting, so it's about 7 seconds slower than old strats. Finally, you can use Sylphid on Great Viper, WCG on Minotaur, and that results in having Sylphid 11 casts behind, or a cost of 30 seconds.

To summarize all of this, here are the 3 routes you can go with using WCG on these bosses:
WCG on Viper, Minotaur: +59, +31, -59: +31
WCG on Viper, cast on Minotaur: +59, -31, -7: +21
Cast on Viper, WCG on Minotaur: 0, +31, -30: +1

All of these options leave you around the same Sylphid level after Gorgon Bull, so you'll be set to get it leveled up slightly against Watermelon for preparation against Dragon Worm.

I've been doing a lot of 1 Controller testing today with new strats using WCG retention, and here's my discoveries on the Sylphid line of bosses.

Great Viper: Not too bad with WCG using some safe strats.  What I did was cast Thunderbolt 3 times to begin the fight, and that meant it only took 1 WCG hit to finish him off.  This gains 59 seconds over casting Sylphid the entire time.

Minotaur: He's actually worse to fight with WCG than Great Viper, mainly because of having an evasion stat.  I ran a couple different scenarios here. First of all, if you decide to use WCG on Great Viper, and then cast magic on Minotaur, it will cost you 32 seconds over old strats because of having Sylphid at a low level. Using WCG on Minotaur saves 31 seconds over old strats.

Gorgon Bull:  There's 3 scenarios here that can happen.  Using WCG on Great Viper and Minotaur means that sylphid will have only 4 casts on it, and that has a couple of consequences.  Level 0 and 1 Thunderbolts are impossible to get the quick MP restore even with Midge Mallet because it has a different animation from the level 2 and 3 Thunderbolts.  This also results in needing to cast Thunderbolt a total of 36 times, over double what was previously needed.  In total, using WCG on Viper and Minotaur means you will lose 59 seconds on Gorgon Bull from additional casts.  The next idea here is using WCG on Great Viper, but resorting to casting on Minotaur.  This starts Gorgon Bull at a slightly lower level, but it's only 2 casts short, or 7 seconds of additional casting, so it's about 7 seconds slower than old strats.  Finally, you can use Sylphid on Great Viper, WCG on Minotaur, and that results in having Sylphid 11 casts behind, or a cost of 30 seconds.

To summarize all of this, here are the 3 routes you can go with using WCG on these bosses:
WCG on Viper, Minotaur: +59, +31, -59: +31
WCG on Viper, cast on Minotaur: +59, -31, -7: +21
Cast on Viper, WCG on Minotaur: 0, +31, -30: +1

All of these options leave you around the same Sylphid level after Gorgon Bull, so you'll be set to get it leveled up slightly against Watermelon for preparation against Dragon Worm.

Crow!

2014-05-09 10:52:08 am

What's that gemma?

Is there a reason WCG on Gorgon Bull is not listed? One option that seems natural to me is to ensure Sylphid gets to level 3 in time for the Dragon Worm, but otherwise go for as many WCG hits on Gorgon Bull as possible, especially if there's a slow MP restore to deal with.

Also, the Darkness seed might become worth it if the Gorgon Bull fight gets entered with level 0 Sylphid.

StingerPA

2014-05-09 10:56:40 am

Where else would we level up Sylphid? We can't do it on Watermelon because of the slow MP restore, it would allow Watermelon to get his wall up. If we enter Dragon Worm with lvl 0 Sylphid, we have tons of lag because of the fog. Gorgon Bull is the best option for leveling it up.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-05-10 05:07:31 pm

Crow!: 2014-05-10 05:06:16 pm

Crow!: 2014-05-10 05:04:57 pm

Crow!: 2014-05-10 04:59:32 pm

Crow!: 2014-05-10 04:30:30 pm

Crow!: 2014-05-10 04:30:14 pm

Crow!: 2014-05-10 04:24:53 pm

2014-05-09 03:14:14 pm

What's that gemma?

We could cast vs Watermelon like:

Thunderbolt x6
Some other spell
Thunderbolt
Walnut

At a cost of menuing time. Whether messing around like that would be worth it would depend on how profitable the WCG on Gorgon Bull is.

To be exact, in order to get the fast MP restore, we need the 25th Sylphid cast (the one that causes the level up to 2) to be the 5th cast used vs the fight in question, or in other words, we need to cast 20 Sylphid spells before entering that fight. If 3 Thunderbolts get cast on each of Great Viper and Minotaur, and one full clip of 8 is spent on Gorgon Bull, then that is 14 of the 20 necessary casts.

Throw in 2 Crystal Orbs that require Sylphid, and 3 instances where we previously cast Lava Wave but could just as easily cast Thunderbolt (the Blue Drops in the Sewers don't count, but the ones in the Frost Palace and Northern Ruins do), and we're only 2 casts short of not even needing to do the spell swapping shenanigans at Watermelon.

So either we could find 2 more cases where it would be nice to cast Sylphid magic, or we can throw in one non-Thunderbolt spell at Watermelon, and that would be sufficient to enable WCG at Gorgon Bull. Whether that actually saves time is a matter of how much slower Watermelon dies to the lower level Thunderbolts.

We could cast vs Watermelon like:

Thunderbolt x6
Some other spell
Thunderbolt
Walnut

At a cost of menuing time.  Whether messing around like that would be worth it would depend on how profitable the WCG on Gorgon Bull is.

To be exact, in order to get the fast MP restore, we need the 25th Sylphid cast (the one that causes the level up to 2) to be the 5th cast used vs the fight in question, or in other words, we need to cast 20 Sylphid spells before entering that fight.  If 3 Thunderbolts get cast on each of Great Viper and Minotaur, and one full clip of 8 is spent on Gorgon Bull, then that is 14 of the 20 necessary casts.

Throw in 2 Crystal Orbs that require Sylphid, and 3 instances where we previously cast Lava Wave but could just as easily cast Thunderbolt (the Blue Drops in the Sewers don't count, but the ones in the Frost Palace and Northern Ruins do), and we're only 2 casts short of not even needing to do the spell swapping shenanigans at Watermelon.

So either we could find 2 more cases where it would be nice to cast Sylphid magic, or we can throw in one non-Thunderbolt spell at Watermelon, and that would be sufficient to enable WCG at Gorgon Bull.  Whether that actually saves time is a matter of how much slower Watermelon dies to the lower level Thunderbolts.

StingerPA

2014-05-16 04:08:21 pm

Small update for 1 controller: Apparently Royal Jams can restore your HP even when it's knocked down to zero. Chocolate and Candy check to see if HP is zero before they heal, but Royal Jam doesn't do that check and automatically heals all the way back up. This can save cups of wishes, plus is just plain faster than waiting for a character to turn into a ghost before reviving them. The animation for Royal Jam is 45 frames longer, so it's a maximum of 6 seconds cost over the course of the run if you use all 8 of them, and that's assuming you aren't able to use it at a point that cancels the animation.

Crow!

2014-05-17 03:55:31 pm

What's that gemma?

Royal Jams are pretty cool. Here's how they can make the Wall Glitch super fast:
http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/c/4273380

This is about 1 minute faster than the previous strategy (~1:30 rather than ~2:30).

Some notes:
Both the Girl and the Sprite need to be in the correct position to not get hit by the reflected spell; position the Girl using the Sprite's feet and hair. Make sure the Dark Knight has traveled as far right as he is going to travel before starting to cast.

The Boy must face to the right; this is accomplished by making sure he's de-aggroed before getting the Sprite and Girl into position.

Cast the Freeze just before the Royal Jam is used. The Royal Jam must be used after the damage numbers occur, so I confirm that the "level up" sound has played before I commit to casting Freeze. Being a little late on the Royal Jam will leave a lot of number displays in the queue that you have to wait for, which wastes time but is otherwise not excessively bad. Being a lot late on the Royal Jam means needing to reset the room.

The Dark Knight's Lv. 4 Wall only lasts for 6 casts, but you need to Wall Glitch 7 times. So do one room reset, and execute the last Wall Glitch the "old" way. (Incidentally, another option is to use 4 Royal Jams, kill the boy 5 times, restock the Royal Jams, use a Cup as you reset the room and refill the Sprite's MP, then use 6 Royal Jams as you kill the Boy 7 times. The reward for continued Wall Glitching becomes a lot less at this point, but when each repetition is this fast, it might be worth it).

Royal Jams are pretty cool.  Here's how they can make the Wall Glitch super fast:
http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/c/4273380

This is about 1 minute faster than the previous strategy (~1:30 rather than ~2:30).

Some notes:
Both the Girl and the Sprite need to be in the correct position to not get hit by the reflected spell; position the Girl using the Sprite's feet and hair.  Make sure the Dark Knight has traveled as far right as he is going to travel before starting to cast.

The Boy must face to the right; this is accomplished by making sure he's de-aggroed before getting the Sprite and Girl into position.

Cast the Freeze just before the Royal Jam is used.  The Royal Jam must be used after the damage numbers occur, so I confirm that the "level up" sound has played before I commit to casting Freeze.  Being a little late on the Royal Jam will leave a lot of number displays in the queue that you have to wait for, which wastes time but is otherwise not excessively bad.  Being a lot late on the Royal Jam means needing to reset the room.

The Dark Knight's Lv. 4 Wall only lasts for 6 casts, but you need to Wall Glitch 7 times.  So do one room reset, and execute the last Wall Glitch the "old" way.  (Incidentally, another option is to use 4 Royal Jams, kill the boy 5 times, restock the Royal Jams, use a Cup as you reset the room and refill the Sprite's MP, then use 6 Royal Jams as you kill the Boy 7 times.  The reward for continued Wall Glitching becomes a lot less at this point, but when each repetition is this fast, it might be worth it).

Yagamoth

2014-05-22 06:18:22 am

INTJ

Nice find with the royal jam, that's really handy oô

Yagamoth

2014-06-17 12:45:36 pm

INTJ

The download link for the 1 cycle manabeast does not work for me. Does it work for someone else? Can you reupload it please? oô

StingerPA

2014-06-17 02:00:41 pm

I think the site I used has been having trouble lately. Here's another link for it.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/m1evuvl38vvkvs5/ManaBeast1cycle.smv

Yagamoth

2014-06-17 03:17:35 pm

INTJ

Thanks. So... You don't try to cast Acid raid as early as possible to stop the Mana Beast? It looks like the 1 cycle in the SMV was quite lucky with a few crits?

StingerPA

2014-07-02 10:44:03 pm

So, I tried to be helpful, but as it turns out, I am incredibly lazy. Here's a half finished Boss FAQ for 1P2C. I've also included an image for useful charge attacks. I've made the document free to edit, so maybe we can get it completely filled out with useful information.

http://i.imgur.com/9c17SWo.png

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WDQfxtq7nhV7zjUE8LqSDr8CJxcjo1vh4x5ioiHKyKc/edit?usp=sharing

Yagamoth

2014-07-02 11:35:07 pm

INTJ

Oh.. nice image o.o.. I miss the 3.1 normal slash, that's one I use rather frequently too ^^ (I'll consider doing something similar for all the charges)

The document looks quite nice at a glance, thank you Smiley

StingerPA

2014-07-02 11:37:50 pm

The reason I didn't include the 3.1 slash is because those attacks have a tendency to transform into another attack for whatever reason.

Yagamoth

2014-07-02 11:38:25 pm

INTJ

Yes.. That's something I probably should've researched a long time ago too

Yagamoth

2014-07-05 06:58:23 am

INTJ

I have a theory as to why some attacks seem to change.. I didn't test this thouroughly yet, but it kind of makes sense.

There are three values (per character) relevant for charging attacks (Thanks to HHS' post over at Tasvideos). For the Boy it is:
7EE01A - Charge Counter
7EE01B - Charge level
7EE01F - Charge Timer

Charge counter counts from 1 to 44 (0x01 to 0x2C in hex) while holding the charge-button (usually B..)
- 0 Means, the B-button is not being held
- 1 Means, the B-Button is being held and the Stamina is 100%, the counter starts to increase as by 1 ~frame (It's not every frame, it's a bit weird)
- 44 Means, the charge level is being increased by 1 at the next opportunity

Charge timer
This thing is a bit of a mystery to me.. It's either 0 or 1 at some weird intervals. Let me write a list of states per frame, when starting to charge a normal level 1 weapon:
1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0

So basically.. It does this repeatedly:
0001011101

3 unchanged states followed by 3 changes in succession. Knowing that SoM operates at a 5-frame-cycle, I'd assume the 3 unchanged states are simply occurring when nothing is being calculated. Do not know this for certain. And then still.. No idea what this thing is for o_o..

Charge level
Does what you expect it to. Keeps track of the charge level. Increases by 1 approx. every other frame during the overcharging

Let me create a similar list on when the next charge-level is in the address, similar to the previous example (e.g. 1 = next level, 0 = level stayed). Starting at charge level 0x21, because that's what I currently have in the emu.

1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0

So yeah.. Exactly as many changed states as unchanged. So we could simplify that into it increases every other frame I guess?..

===============================================================================
About the changing attack:

Edit before I submitted: My theory did not work out after realizing this:

I could not reproduce the changing overcharge attacks when not hitting enemies. I think it only occurrs, when you hit an enemy (enemy simply being on screen does not seem to change anything).

So, the only new information I have is, that the attack only changes once you hit an enemy.. The values in the memory look the exact same for the normal- and other slash. Not sure where the difference is.

I have a theory as to why some attacks seem to change.. I didn't test this thouroughly yet, but it kind of makes sense.

There are three values (per character) relevant for charging attacks (Thanks to HHS' post over at Tasvideos). For the Boy it is:
7EE01A - Charge Counter
7EE01B - Charge level
7EE01F - Charge Timer

[b]Charge counter[/b] counts from 1 to 44 (0x01 to 0x2C in hex) while holding the charge-button (usually B..)
- 0 Means, the B-button is not being held
- 1 Means, the B-Button is being held and the Stamina is 100%, the counter starts to increase as by 1 ~frame (It's not every frame, it's a bit weird)
- 44 Means, the charge level is being increased by 1 at the next opportunity

[b]Charge timer[/b]
This thing is a bit of a mystery to me.. It's either 0 or 1 at some weird intervals. Let me write a list of states per frame, when starting to charge a normal level 1 weapon:
1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 0

So basically.. It does this repeatedly:
0001011101

3 unchanged states followed by 3 changes in succession. Knowing that SoM operates at a 5-frame-cycle, I'd assume the 3 unchanged states are simply occurring when nothing is being calculated. Do not know this for certain. And then still.. No idea what this thing is for o_o..

[b]Charge level[/b]
Does what you expect it to. Keeps track of the charge level. Increases by 1 approx. every other frame during the overcharging

Let me create a similar list on when the next charge-level is in the address, similar to the previous example (e.g. 1 = next level, 0 = level stayed). Starting at charge level 0x21, because that's what I currently have in the emu.

1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0

So yeah.. Exactly as many changed states as unchanged. So we could simplify that into it increases every other frame I guess?..

===============================================================================
About the changing attack:

Edit before I submitted: My theory did not work out after realizing this:

I could not reproduce the changing overcharge attacks when not hitting enemies. I think it only occurrs, when you hit an enemy (enemy simply being on screen does not seem to change anything).

So, the only new information I have is, that the attack only changes once you hit an enemy.. The values in the memory look the exact same for the normal- and other slash. Not sure where the difference is.

StingerPA

2014-07-08 02:06:44 pm

Crow suggested a new 1p2c strat for Fire Gigas in the google doc, and I finally tested it out. It's a way to eliminate all of the RNG of Fire Gigas flying away.

The execution is a lot tighter than what we used to do, but it's consistent if done correctly. The savestate I have that Fire Gigas flies away every time on is getting him 100% of the time before he takes off. Essentially, the strat is to get the overcharge started ASAP (and I mean this, there are very few frames to waste here) and immediately slash at Fire Gigas with the girl. If you're quick enough, he will get stunned by the girl's hit, and after recovering, he will cast a spell. This is when he's vulnerable. With my testing, only the 4.1 and 4.2 attacks could hit him, which adds to the execution needed. Before, I could pretty easily release the charge without buffering, but now there's only a 4 frame window at most to release.

Low damage rolls are still a possibility even with the extra damage from the girl, so mashing X to cast Freeze will still counter that RNG.

Crow suggested a new 1p2c strat for Fire Gigas in the google doc, and I finally tested it out.  It's a way to eliminate all of the RNG of Fire Gigas flying away.

The execution is a lot tighter than what we used to do, but it's consistent if done correctly.  The savestate I have that Fire Gigas flies away every time on is getting him 100% of the time before he takes off.  Essentially, the strat is to get the overcharge started ASAP (and I mean this, there are very few frames to waste here) and immediately slash at Fire Gigas with the girl.  If you're quick enough, he will get stunned by the girl's hit, and after recovering, he will cast a spell.  This is when he's vulnerable.  With my testing, only the 4.1 and 4.2 attacks could hit him, which adds to the execution needed.  Before, I could pretty easily release the charge without buffering, but now there's only a 4 frame window at most to release.

Low damage rolls are still a possibility even with the extra damage from the girl, so mashing X to cast Freeze will still counter that RNG.

Crow!

2014-07-10 09:28:40 pm

What's that gemma?

Either I'm misreading Stinger's writeup of the Fire Gigas strategy, or it is incomplete. Earlier today, I tried to execute the strategy in the previous post, but the Fire Gigas slammed his hands into the ground and cast Exploder when the Boy was still only at 1.5 charge level.

I think either there's supposed to be a delay before the Girl's attack, or the Boy and Girl are both supposed to walk downward to avoid just getting hit by a physical attack.

StingerPA

2014-07-10 11:52:18 pm

I just watched the vod of your failed Fire Gigas fight. What went wrong was that you swung way too early. You have to swing after the overcharge has already started, not at the beginning of the fight. That's part of why the execution is much tighter (at least when he's going to fly away) because you can't waste much time getting the overcharge up, otherwise you'll have the girl swing too late after he's begun his disappearing act.

Also, an issue I saw when Fire Gigas reappeared was that you released the charge too early after he reappeared. You have to wait until he's in this (http://i.imgur.com/z9RFDqJ.png) position before he can be hit. Until then, he has invulnerability hitboxes.