Secret of Mana

2014-01-21 11:30:20 pm

INTJ

I simply keep thinking back how Musashi one-cycled the Mana Beast:

^ But there is so much menueing involved, I have no idea how much time it would actually save ^^.. Also, lunar Boost - how much time does it save to not visit the Moon Palace?

Yagamoth

2014-01-25 06:07:03 am

INTJ

Ok, I finally wasn't too lazy to do some research ont he RNG values. I figured out a few things which could be useful:

- The Bosses RNG only changes during "boss battles", other than that the value does not change
- The value changes once about every second, and depending on player action, location, etc. it can change between those changes too
- The Slow Down/Analysis spells stop the changing of the RNG value for a short amount of time. But not the entire duration of the animation
- After you reset, the boss' RNG is set back to the initial value (!)

So... In theory, we can reset before certain bosses to get one RNG value we know which starts on... However, as I said, depending on player action (whether we hit or not is drawn from a different RNG) and location. In Stingers theory TAS, he moved the characters from the initial spot so the Vampire would be manipulated into descending right away. This means, unless we find a absolutely consistent setup, saving + resetting before Buffy is still not going to be worth it... Assuming it would be worth it in first place if we could manipulate a perfect pattern.

Ok, I finally wasn't too lazy to do some research ont he RNG values. I figured out a few things which could be useful:

- The Bosses RNG only changes during "boss battles", other than that the value does not change
- The value changes once about every second, and depending on player action, location, etc. it can change between those changes too
- The Slow Down/Analysis spells stop the changing of the RNG value for a short amount of time. But not the entire duration of the animation
- After you reset, the boss' RNG is set back to the initial value (!)

So... In theory, we can reset before certain bosses to get one RNG value we know which starts on... However, as I said, depending on player action (whether we hit or not is drawn from a different RNG) and location. In Stingers theory TAS, he moved the characters from the initial spot so the Vampire would be manipulated into descending right away. This means, unless we find a absolutely consistent setup, saving + resetting before Buffy is still not going to be worth it... Assuming it would be worth it in first place if we could manipulate a perfect pattern.

Crow!

2014-01-25 09:13:58 am

What's that gemma?

Does a soft reset cause the Boss's RNG to become the initial value? If so, you could save warp into the Buffy fight if he gives you a bad initial pattern (at the cost of the Hexas and Mech Rider III EXP, unless you went back to the crystal forest yet again). I'm not forseeing any profitable use for Vampire, though.

Yagamoth

2014-01-25 09:21:47 am

INTJ

No, you'd have to savewarp into the beginning of the Mana Fortress. You need to hit all the triggers in the first portion of the Mana Fortress, otherwise the rest will not function properly. Also, even if it would work, don't forget that you'd lose all the armor too ^^

Essentially the only two bosses which you could manipulate the values would be Hexas and Mech rider #3. Neither is necessary though

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-01-26 06:22:11 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-26 05:49:31 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-26 05:01:03 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-26 05:00:08 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-26 12:10:40 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-26 12:10:14 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-26 12:07:44 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-25 07:40:35 pm

2014-01-25 04:06:25 pm

What's that gemma?

Found a new glitch that could save a couple seconds each boss fight where I use MP but where I'm not hitting 999 damage per spell rotation.

Apparently, there is a brief period of time between when the game puts the Sprite into the "I just got MP, woo!" animation and when the green numbers are displayed over him. If you bring up the menu at that time, you can cast a spell, and therefore defer the green numbers until after your next spell rotation is over.

Here's an application at the Pebblers fight:
http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/c/3609771

Trying to do this multiple times in a row doesn't work out, as you don't get the MP for the second walnut until after the green numbers from the first walnut finally go away. So the benefit is only from accelerating the last MP restore of a battle.

I suspect the mechanics for this bug are similar to this one:
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/secret_of_mana_579.html

Edit: It seems that the timing for this is completely different depending on whether you cast multiple spells in a row before the walnut or not; if you had chain-casted spells before restoring MP, it happens nearly instantly, whereas if you had cast a single spell, there is a long delay, both before the initial awarding of MP and before the green numbers after the second cast. Curiously, if the spell caster starts walking during this interim, he/she is stuck walking in a particular direction while the green numbers dispay... which I've unfortunately been unable to translate into either a walk through walls or a pureland skip.

You can also cause that second effect with any recovery item in conjunction with the midge mallet; just before the numbers appear, use the mallet twice in a row and the character will delay the numbers and the locked-in-actions until a short period after the midge mallet animation ends.

Edit2: Actually, I'm not sure what is prompting the instant award of MP versus the usual slower timing. Figuring out that much could save a few seconds in every mid-boss MP restore, so I'll get on it.

- Further testing suggests you get a faster MP award consistently for chain casting spells with long animations. Earth Slide, Lightning Bolt, and Dispel require being pygmied to get the MP award at the faster pace, whereas the other spells I tested would always give the MP immediately after a chaincast.

Found a new glitch that could save a couple seconds each boss fight where I use MP but where I'm not hitting 999 damage per spell rotation.

Apparently, there is a brief period of time between when the game puts the Sprite into the "I just got MP, woo!" animation and when the green numbers are displayed over him.  If you bring up the menu at that time, you can cast a spell, and therefore defer the green numbers until after your next spell rotation is over.

Here's an application at the Pebblers fight:
http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/c/3609771

Trying to do this multiple times in a row doesn't work out, as you don't get the MP for the second walnut until after the green numbers from the first walnut finally go away.  So the benefit is only from accelerating the last MP restore of a battle.

I suspect the mechanics for this bug are similar to this one:
https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/secret_of_mana_579.html

Edit: It seems that the timing for this is completely different depending on whether you cast multiple spells in a row before the walnut or not; if you had chain-casted spells before restoring MP, it happens nearly instantly, whereas if you had cast a single spell, there is a long delay, both before the initial awarding of MP and before the green numbers after the second cast.  Curiously, if the spell caster starts walking during this interim, he/she is stuck walking in a particular direction while the green numbers dispay... which I've unfortunately been unable to translate into either a walk through walls or a pureland skip.

You can also cause that second effect with any recovery item in conjunction with the midge mallet; just before the numbers appear, use the mallet twice in a row and the character will delay the numbers and the locked-in-actions until a short period after the midge mallet animation ends.

Edit2: Actually, I'm not sure what is prompting the instant award of MP versus the usual slower timing.  Figuring out that much could save a few seconds in every mid-boss MP restore, so I'll get on it.

- Further testing suggests you get a faster MP award consistently for chain casting spells with long animations.  Earth Slide, Lightning Bolt, and Dispel require being pygmied to get the MP award at the faster pace, whereas the other spells I tested would always give the MP immediately after a chaincast.

Yagamoth

2014-01-26 07:33:10 pm

INTJ

Interesting... So there is a window between actually gaining the MP and the display... What's more interesting to me:

Quote:

Edit: It seems that the timing for this is completely different depending on whether you cast multiple spells in a row before the walnut or not; if you had chain-casted spells before restoring MP, it happens nearly instantly, whereas if you had cast a single spell, there is a long delay, both before the initial awarding of MP and before the green numbers after the second cast. Curiously, if the spell caster starts walking during this interim, he/she is stuck walking in a particular direction while the green numbers dispay... which I've unfortunately been unable to translate into either a walk through walls or a pureland skip.

You can also cause that second effect with any recovery item in conjunction with the midge mallet; just before the numbers appear, use the mallet twice in a row and the character will delay the numbers and the locked-in-actions until a short period after the midge mallet animation ends.

--> Did you try this while one of your party members was invisible? I know there is such a weird interaction too with getting freed from being Frostied, but I couldn't get frostied in useful places so far

I have a few "new" ideas for improving the 1p2c run besides the crazy dual charge or boomerang main weapon. Although arguably they are not much less crazy:

1. Spell Lockdown on the Mana Beast + Timed hits
As you may or may not know, we only need about 4 additional hits to be able to one-cycle the Mana Beast in a 1p2c run. My idea for achieving this is currently hoping, that the Beast comes from below, immediately (or even before that) cast Slow Down/Analysis (whichever works better) so the cast goes off just after the first hit lands. Then you time the subsequent hits to be right after the spellcast wears off, and time the next spell to hit right after that. Potentially this could work out. It's 3 AM currently, and I simply write down stuff so I don't forget it 'tomorrow'

2. Skip the last restocking/armor
If you think about it, we take quite a detour to do the final buying. Landing + Buying + Equipping + Flying off. My ideas to get through the Mana Fortress without the newest armor currently circle around a few points:
- We can restock at any point with the item trashing. Candy to cancel damage and Cups of Wishes to revive
- As of now, the armor actually does not really prevent us from getting hit. It simply lowers the damage taken, which is still a time loss
- Even though we can't run, killing off 2 party members initially and reviving them before each boss should work out (give the 1 party member a Wall to be protected against random casts), and ghosts ignoring enemies could work out to be not much slower
- We try to avoid getting hit anyways - where do we get hit, unless we mess up?
- As a backup strat we can always cast Balloon if we spawn unfortunate enemies (Tsunamies)

- Negative points are: We have to cancel (probably) every attack from the Mana Beast and we have to care about enemies we could mostly ignore (Metal Crabs, Basilisk, the black Samurai dudes, dog spawns from the other dog)
- I don't know whether magic also does more damage so we'd have to cancel out everything from Buffy/Dark Lich... Coming to think of it, no idea whether we survive a poison attack

3. Skip the Desert Armor
This is my last point, because it saves less time than point 2, and the frost country makes this a nightmare. But if you consider - beyond the Frost Country, there is not really anything where we would take damage. Fire Temple is hitless, Sewers are hitless (use Balloon for goldfish if necessary), 2nd Ruins are usually hitless, Metal Mantis could be a bit of a pain, but we could also simply use spell lockdown, emperor castle is hitless, climbing the mountain could be a bit tricky but should work..?
- Again, my idea would potentially be to kill off 2 people to get through the Frost Country, and give the 1 character a single cast with frost weapon. Even if it costs us time traversing the fields and killing off the people, it could still be faster than buying the armor.

Overall I'll first try, whether I can get through the Mana Fortress with Desert Armor, at the end try to 1-cycle the Mana Beast and the maybe play around with skipping Desert Armor.

Interesting... So there is a window between actually gaining the MP and the display... What's more interesting to me:

[quote]Edit: It seems that the timing for this is completely different depending on whether you cast multiple spells in a row before the walnut or not; if you had chain-casted spells before restoring MP, it happens nearly instantly, whereas if you had cast a single spell, there is a long delay, both before the initial awarding of MP and before the green numbers after the second cast.  Curiously, if the spell caster starts walking during this interim, he/she is stuck walking in a particular direction while the green numbers dispay... which I've unfortunately been unable to translate into either a walk through walls or a pureland skip.

You can also cause that second effect with any recovery item in conjunction with the midge mallet; just before the numbers appear, use the mallet twice in a row and the character will delay the numbers and the locked-in-actions until a short period after the midge mallet animation ends.[/quote]

--> Did you try this while one of your party members was invisible? I know there is such a weird interaction too with getting freed from being Frostied, but I couldn't get frostied in useful places so far

I have a few "new" ideas for improving the 1p2c run besides the crazy dual charge or boomerang main weapon. Although arguably they are not much less crazy:

[b]1. Spell Lockdown on the Mana Beast + Timed hits[/b]
As you may or may not know, we only need about 4 additional hits to be able to one-cycle the Mana Beast in a 1p2c run. My idea for achieving this is currently hoping, that the Beast comes from below, immediately (or even before that) cast Slow Down/Analysis (whichever works better) so the cast goes off just after the first hit lands. Then you time the subsequent hits to be right after the spellcast wears off, and time the next spell to hit right after that. Potentially this could work out. It's 3 AM currently, and I simply write down stuff so I don't forget it 'tomorrow'

[b]2. Skip the last restocking/armor[/b]
If you think about it, we take quite a detour to do the final buying. Landing + Buying + Equipping + Flying off. My ideas to get through the Mana Fortress without the newest armor currently circle around a few points:
- We can restock at any point with the item trashing. Candy to cancel damage and Cups of Wishes to revive
- As of now, the armor actually does not really prevent us from getting hit. It simply lowers the damage taken, which is still a time loss
- Even though we can't run, killing off 2 party members initially and reviving them before each boss should work out (give the 1 party member a Wall to be protected against random casts), and ghosts ignoring enemies could work out to be not much slower
- We try to avoid getting hit anyways - where do we get hit, unless we mess up?
- As a backup strat we can always cast Balloon if we spawn unfortunate enemies (Tsunamies)

- Negative points are: We have to cancel (probably) every attack from the Mana Beast and we have to care about enemies we could mostly ignore (Metal Crabs, Basilisk, the black Samurai dudes, dog spawns from the other dog)
- I don't know whether magic also does more damage so we'd have to cancel out everything from Buffy/Dark Lich... Coming to think of it, no idea whether we survive a poison attack

[b]3. Skip the Desert Armor[/b]
This is my last point, because it saves less time than point 2, and the frost country makes this a nightmare. But if you consider - beyond the Frost Country, there is not really anything where we would take damage. Fire Temple is hitless, Sewers are hitless (use Balloon for goldfish if necessary), 2nd Ruins are usually hitless, Metal Mantis could be a bit of a pain, but we could also simply use spell lockdown, emperor castle is hitless, climbing the mountain could be a bit tricky but should work..?
- Again, my idea would potentially be to kill off 2 people to get through the Frost Country, and give the 1 character a single cast with frost weapon. Even if it costs us time traversing the fields and killing off the people, it could still be faster than buying the armor.

Overall I'll first try, whether I can get through the Mana Fortress with Desert Armor, at the end try to 1-cycle the Mana Beast and the maybe play around with skipping Desert Armor.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-01-26 09:34:04 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-26 09:33:37 pm

2014-01-26 09:18:34 pm

What's that gemma?

Regarding stun-locking the Mana Beast:
If you need just a little bit more stun than what the Slow Downs before the Mana Beast walls itself provides, you could wall the Sprite and bounce 2 Remedys (or maybe something with a shorter animation would be better for 1p2c?) before the Mana Beast gets around to casting Dispel.

Invisible characters doesn't seem to have any interesting interactions with the deferred-numbers bug.

StingerPA

2014-01-26 10:13:57 pm

Dispel is a really quick spell, so it could be used as the stunlock to go along with normal slashes.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-01-28 04:07:27 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-27 12:50:09 am

2014-01-27 12:45:57 am

INTJ

Dispel and normal slashes don't work together though

Theory:
- Get an invisible party member
- Go through the Grand Palace to the place where you need to activate all the orbs for the stairs to appear
- Get one visible character inflicted with "engulfed in flames" by the hellhounds or whatever does that in there
- The engulfed character controlled by AI
- Use Healing item
- use Medical Herb
(use Midge Mallet 2x?)
- Hope the character runs through a wall?

Just a theory... As I said, I know snowman kind of work like that, but sure about Engulfed in Flames. I tried it for a while with no result a few months ago, but I didn't try it in conjuction with Midge Mallet and/or healing items

=================================

Edit, on skipping the last equipment set:
- Magic damage does indeed get reduced by the latest armor
- Getting the armor costs approximately 1min 10 seconds
- Getting to Buffy without armor seems to be no problem at all. The only tricky spot is when I spawn the second Tsunami where you have to press the switch on the right. Balloon will solve that problem though
- Buffy will oneshot all characters with every single attack, a good amount of candy to cancel damage if you get unlucky is required
- You can avoid the bat-attack from Buffy entirely if you hug the wall at the top, but I don't know if that's useful yet
- In worst case scenario we could always cast wall

I didn't try to get to the blob boss yet... But for him I think, casting wall on the Boy is a good option

Dispel and normal slashes don't work together though

Theory: 
- Get an invisible party member
- Go through the Grand Palace to the place where you need to activate all the orbs for the stairs to appear
- Get one visible character inflicted with "engulfed in flames" by the hellhounds or whatever does that in there
- The engulfed character controlled by AI
- Use Healing item
- use Medical Herb
(use Midge Mallet 2x?)
- Hope the character runs through a wall?

Just a theory... As I said, I know snowman kind of work like that, but sure about Engulfed in Flames. I tried it for a while with no result a few months ago, but I didn't try it in conjuction with Midge Mallet and/or healing items

=================================

Edit, on skipping the last equipment set:
- Magic damage does indeed get reduced by the latest armor
- Getting the armor costs approximately 1min 10 seconds
- Getting to Buffy without armor seems to be no problem at all. The only tricky spot is when I spawn the second Tsunami where you have to press the switch on the right. Balloon will solve that problem though
- Buffy will oneshot all characters with every single attack, a good amount of candy to cancel damage if you get unlucky is required
- You can avoid the bat-attack from Buffy entirely if you hug the wall at the top, but I don't know if that's useful yet
- In worst case scenario we could always cast wall

I didn't try to get to the blob boss yet... But for him I think, casting wall on the Boy is a good option

Crow!

2014-01-28 08:52:07 am

What's that gemma?

Keep in mind, every menu access costs time. It's not going to take that many additional curatives and spell casts to add up to a minute. A boss hitting itself with a spell does cost time (for 1p2c anyway) in addition to the initial wall cast.

luigimeister

2014-01-29 12:28:45 am

Likes SoM far too much

On a completely different topic, I'm thinking about putting together a google doc for leaderboards.

Yagamoth

2014-01-29 03:01:14 am

INTJ

Feel free to do so. There is a fair amount of interest and a few runners recently. It would be nice to have them all in a list Smiley

StingerPA

2014-01-29 09:45:53 am

I've been putting my times at PBTracker, and it already has a few times. You can find the page here: http://www.pbtracker.net/game/secret-of-mana

Crow!

2014-01-30 09:25:12 pm

What's that gemma?

@ Stinger: in my drilling, I am presently at the Palace of Darkness, and I'm trying to reproduce your walk through walls to cross the chasm instead of calling the magic rope. While I can sometimes get it to work, I'm finding that it is dependent on an exact positioning of both the Ember and the Girl, such that my success rate is less than 25%. Do you have a trick to get it to be consistent?

StingerPA

2014-01-30 10:11:40 pm

It is to a point. You have to make sure that the emberman is not in the top corner, otherwise the AI won't run from him. Then you can just push him around to make the AI run from him towards the now-open door.

Yagamoth

2014-01-31 06:45:25 am

INTJ

I would still like a google doc for the list - not everyone knows about the pbtracker (and I forgot about it). Plus, in there we can put various links to guides and stuff Smiley

Crow!

2014-01-31 08:05:09 am

What's that gemma?

Very, very minor optimization: when setting up the money glitch, it is better to sell the Candy first rather than the Herb. This requires only 1/3 of an item ring rotation, and then the Herb will be automatically selected for the next sale. Selling the Herb first requires spinning the item ring 1/2 rotation to select the Candy.

StingerPA

2014-01-31 12:20:55 pm

Quote from Crow!:

Very, very minor optimization: when setting up the money glitch, it is better to sell the Candy first rather than the Herb. This requires only 1/3 of an item ring rotation, and then the Herb will be automatically selected for the next sale. Selling the Herb first requires spinning the item ring 1/2 rotation to select the Candy.

I tested this a while ago, and found that selling the Medical Herb first was faster for some reason. I just tested again, and selling the Candy first saved a whole 2 frames. I think the whole thing depends on the frame rules you end up on, and I'm not certain which one saves more time on the best frame rules for each one. Either way, it's meaningless.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-02-01 10:33:43 am

Crow!: 2014-02-01 10:27:44 am

Crow!: 2014-01-31 10:03:19 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-31 09:56:08 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-31 09:55:23 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-31 09:54:05 pm

2014-01-31 09:51:54 pm

What's that gemma?

Okay, found a way to consistently walk through walls at the Palace of Darkness. It takes an extra spellcast though, so the net time saved is only about 3 seconds (as opposed to like 7 seconds saved if the inconsistent method works). It goes as follows:

Upon entering the whip pole room:
1. Select the Sprite and run up 2-3 tiles, then cast Freeze on all enemies.
2. Select the Girl and step on the whip pole tile as soon as the Freeze animation has begun.
3. Wait for the Embermen to begin exploding, and as soon as they do, press B to cross the chasm.
4. Run up and right to hit the button, then walk up and left (1 tile), then aim downard at the whip pole.
5. An Emberman will spawn at the lower right side of the screen. Wait for it to move as far left as it can.
6. Have the Sprite cast Freeze, then tell the Boy to target the Emberman (it will be the default target).
7. As soon as you see the Boy start to move, attack the whip pole.
8. Swap to the Boy and walk upward.

We only technically need to kill one Emberman to make room for the new one, but killing the one on the button island is necessary to avoid letting the Boy become distracted, hence the need to move upward a few tiles before casting.

A Walnut can be included at minimal time loss during the first spell cast.

Edit: It appears that the relevant Emberman is not always the default target. If it isn't, you'll see that it isn't during the Sprite's second spell cast, and you can adjust the boy's targeting accordingly.

Also, it for some reason appears unnecessary to wait around for the spell's animation to occur; the Freeze damage usually happens regardless of stepping on the whip pole tile.

Okay, found a way to consistently walk through walls at the Palace of Darkness.  It takes an extra spellcast though, so the net time saved is only about 3 seconds (as opposed to like 7 seconds saved if the inconsistent method works).  It goes as follows:

Upon entering the whip pole room:
1. Select the Sprite and run up 2-3 tiles, then cast Freeze on all enemies.
2. Select the Girl and step on the whip pole tile as soon as the Freeze animation has begun.
3. Wait for the Embermen to begin exploding, and as soon as they do, press B to cross the chasm.
4. Run up and right to hit the button, then walk up and left (1 tile), then aim downard at the whip pole.
5. An Emberman will spawn at the lower right side of the screen.  Wait for it to move as far left as it can.
6. Have the Sprite cast Freeze, then tell the Boy to target the Emberman (it will be the default target).
7. As soon as you see the Boy start to move, attack the whip pole.
8. Swap to the Boy and walk upward.

We only technically need to kill one Emberman to make room for the new one, but killing the one on the button island is necessary to avoid letting the Boy become distracted, hence the need to move upward a few tiles before casting.

A Walnut can be included at minimal time loss during the first spell cast.

Edit: It appears that the relevant Emberman is not always the default target.  If it isn't, you'll see that it isn't during the Sprite's second spell cast, and you can adjust the boy's targeting accordingly.

Also, it for some reason appears unnecessary to wait around for the spell's animation to occur; the Freeze damage usually happens regardless of stepping on the whip pole tile.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-02-02 09:17:47 pm

Crow!: 2014-02-02 09:15:45 pm

Crow!: 2014-02-02 09:15:16 pm

Crow!: 2014-02-02 09:06:34 pm

Crow!: 2014-02-02 02:20:39 pm

2014-02-02 02:12:01 pm

What's that gemma?

Finished my 1p1c drilling. The resulting TAS is just barely under 3 hours by SRL timing, and I was not in general luck manipulating (I kept segments after I was comfortable that I was consistently doing them correctly, not because the final instance went especially well RNG-wise). Sub-3-hours is probably doable in a real run by SDA timing with just a few more optimizations, or with particularly good Dread Slime and Mana Beast dodge / spell casting luck. (Unfortunately, those two battles right at the end are by far the biggest points for RNG trolling in the route.)

Some notes:

- Hexas is best fought from above; the AIs will stay a safer distance away from her if you do. Select the Boy and run up and left as far as you can before barreling the Girl and swapping to her.

- When fighting Dread Slime (using my strategy as demonstrated in my videos), keep the girl pushed as far upward as she can be until you've scored 2 hits. This will cause the AI to freak out and sometimes attack early, but at the slime's smallest size, you have to do this to make sure the AIs don't slip out of their little box. Once the slime is big enough you can walk down about a tile and a half so the AIs do their optimal damage output.

----

By the way, I'm pretty sure the Analyzer / Slow Down casts vs Hexas in the current 1p2c route are a waste of time; every spell Hexas casts targets the closest character, and not a one of them can pierce Barrel. Just pick an overcharge whose animation doesn't move the Boy and fire away at a completely helpless boss. The only caveat is that Dispel can temporarily make the barreled character unable to pull up an item ring; you might have to quickly swap controller #2 to the other character then back if Dispel is cast at an unfortunate time.

Finished my 1p1c drilling.  The resulting TAS is just barely under 3 hours by SRL timing, and I was not in general luck manipulating (I kept segments after I was comfortable that I was consistently doing them correctly, not because the final instance went especially well RNG-wise).  Sub-3-hours is probably doable in a real run by SDA timing with just a few more optimizations, or with particularly good Dread Slime and Mana Beast dodge / spell casting luck.  (Unfortunately, those two battles right at the end are by far the biggest points for RNG trolling in the route.)

Some notes:

- Hexas is best fought from above; the AIs will stay a safer distance away from her if you do.  Select the Boy and run up and left as far as you can before barreling the Girl and swapping to her.

- When fighting Dread Slime (using my strategy as demonstrated in my videos), keep the girl pushed as far upward as she can be until you've scored 2 hits.  This will cause the AI to freak out and sometimes attack early, but at the slime's smallest size, you have to do this to make sure the AIs don't slip out of their little box.  Once the slime is big enough you can walk down about a tile and a half so the AIs do their optimal damage output.

----

By the way, I'm pretty sure the Analyzer / Slow Down casts vs Hexas in the current 1p2c route are a waste of time; every spell Hexas casts targets the closest character, and not a one of them can pierce Barrel.  Just pick an overcharge whose animation doesn't move the Boy and fire away at a completely helpless boss.  The only caveat is that Dispel can temporarily make the barreled character unable to pull up an item ring; you might have to quickly swap controller #2 to the other character then back if Dispel is cast at an unfortunate time.

Yagamoth

2014-02-04 07:15:53 am

INTJ

I compiled a small list of: Where else could we potentially use the "Disconnect 3rd controller" in a run? I mean, all things considered, there is no real reason to not use Player 1 and 3 instead of Player 1 and 2.

- Landing in the Upper lands, the first cutscene + Talking to any Moogle
- After killing the Pebblers and making the round through the Forest -> Where the way to the village opens, the textbox can be used
- Moving to the right towards the Mech Rider #1 during the textbox (and later #2 and #3)
- Fire Temple, moving to the right to the seed during the textbox
- Southtown, faster guard skip setup
- Ruins 2, stepping on the 1st switch (ensuring you don't get hit by the blue blobs)
- Ruins 2, stepping on the 2nd switch (Moving to the door while the textbox is displayed)
- Castle intro, Emperors room, moving while the textbox is displayed (where is everyone?)
- Moving towards outside after defeating the dopplegangers (?)
- Moving towards the stairs after defeating the Aegragopilon (?)
- Moving during the textbox upstairs, after defeating the Lizard Dragon (Looks odd)

What did I forget?

Quote:

By the way, I'm pretty sure the Analyzer / Slow Down casts vs Hexas in the current 1p2c route are a waste of time; every spell Hexas casts targets the closest character, and not a one of them can pierce Barrel. Just pick an overcharge whose animation doesn't move the Boy and fire away at a completely helpless boss. The only caveat is that Dispel can temporarily make the barreled character unable to pull up an item ring; you might have to quickly swap controller #2 to the other character then back if Dispel is cast at an unfortunate time.

While it's true, that the barrel is the ultimate tank for Hexas - here's the problem: If you unleash an overcharge (or more specifically, when you re-press the button to keep the charge), the barrel disappears

I compiled a small list of: Where else could we potentially use the "Disconnect 3rd controller" in a run? I mean, all things considered, there is no real reason to not use Player 1 and 3 instead of Player 1 and 2.

- Landing in the Upper lands, the first cutscene + Talking to any Moogle
- After killing the Pebblers and making the round through the Forest -> Where the way to the village opens, the textbox can be used
- Moving to the right towards the Mech Rider #1 during the textbox (and later #2 and #3)
- Fire Temple, moving to the right to the seed during the textbox
- Southtown, faster guard skip setup
- Ruins 2, stepping on the 1st switch (ensuring you don't get hit by the blue blobs)
- Ruins 2, stepping on the 2nd switch (Moving to the door while the textbox is displayed)
- Castle intro, Emperors room, moving while the textbox is displayed (where is everyone?)
- Moving towards outside after defeating the dopplegangers (?)
- Moving towards the stairs after defeating the Aegragopilon (?)
- Moving during the textbox upstairs, after defeating the Lizard Dragon (Looks odd)

What did I forget?

[quote]By the way, I'm pretty sure the Analyzer / Slow Down casts vs Hexas in the current 1p2c route are a waste of time; every spell Hexas casts targets the closest character, and not a one of them can pierce Barrel.  Just pick an overcharge whose animation doesn't move the Boy and fire away at a completely helpless boss.  The only caveat is that Dispel can temporarily make the barreled character unable to pull up an item ring; you might have to quickly swap controller #2 to the other character then back if Dispel is cast at an unfortunate time.[/quote]

While it's true, that the barrel is the ultimate tank for Hexas - here's the problem: If you unleash an overcharge (or more specifically, when you re-press the button to keep the charge), the barrel disappears

Crow!

2014-02-04 10:12:09 am

What's that gemma?

Oh, very strange. I never would have guessed that a barrel would be dropped by one human player just because a different player attacked.

Since I had my second controller out, I tried to figure out what you guys were doing wrong with the spring based Pureland skip. I found it extremely difficult to reproduce your problem. In case it's helpful, I have attached to this post a SNES9x movie of me doing the skip successfully 9 times in a row.

Attachment:

PurelandSkip.smv

Yagamoth

2014-02-04 03:27:51 pm

INTJ

I have no clue what happens there still... The success and the failures seem to come in streaks.

Ok, some 1p1c theory that might also help somewhere in 1p2c.

You can gain absolute control over an overcharge from an AI character. I'm pretty sure we all know about the individual parts, but we may not have thought about using the whole thing together like this:

1) Overcharge the AIs weapon
2) Menu-Buffer to get a good attack
3) Swap the weapon of the AI with a level 0 weapon
- The Overcharge no stays on the same level
4) Use a candy on the AI (or get hit, or somehow disable the character in any way)
5) Switch to the character with the overcharge
6) You now have full control over one attack of your choice

This takes quite a while to set up, but it could easily be well worth it. For example:

Great Viper
1 Spell Rotation, and set up the charge during the casts, for about 300 damage
1 Overcharge attack it to finish it off
--> During Great Viper it lags a ton. While you still need Sylph, the less time spent in the Great Viper fight, the better

Also in general we shouldn't forget -> Speeding up a fight is generally a good thing, if we don't slow down further fights too much (because magic level). But to slow down -that- much on the next fight, weird stuff would need to happen. The biggest jumps in power are from level 0 to 1, to level 2 and level 3.

=========================================

The portion which might help in 1p2c runs is as follows:
- We could simply swap to the Whip for the Spring Beak, if we happen to be in a favorable position for it (e.g. below the Spring Beak), the Sprite should have the Whip equipped at this stage. Afterwards the Sprite switches to the Axe for the Cave -> Boy equips the Spear without swap. It's obviously more time spent compared to simply killing the Spring Beak

Maybe somewhere else too?... I couldn't think of anything which wouldn't be at the mercy of getting no evasion on a boss.

I have no clue what happens there still... The success and the failures seem to come in streaks.

Ok, some 1p1c theory that might also help somewhere in 1p2c.

You can gain absolute control over an overcharge from an AI character. I'm pretty sure we all know about the individual parts, but we may not have thought about using the whole thing together like this:

1) Overcharge the AIs weapon
2) Menu-Buffer to get a good attack
3) Swap the weapon of the AI with a level 0 weapon
- The Overcharge no stays on the same level
4) Use a candy on the AI (or get hit, or somehow disable the character in any way)
5) Switch to the character with the overcharge
6) You now have full control over one attack of your choice

This takes quite a while to set up, but it could easily be well worth it. For example:

Great Viper 
1 Spell Rotation, and set up the charge during the casts, for about 300 damage
1 Overcharge attack it to finish it off
--> During Great Viper it lags a ton. While you still need Sylph, the less time spent in the Great Viper fight, the better

Also in general we shouldn't forget -> Speeding up a fight is generally a good thing, if we don't slow down further fights too much (because magic level). But to slow down -that- much on the next fight, weird stuff would need to happen. The biggest jumps in power are from level 0 to 1, to level 2 and level 3.

=========================================

The portion which might help in 1p2c runs is as follows:
- We could simply swap to the Whip for the Spring Beak, if we happen to be in a favorable position for it (e.g. below the Spring Beak), the Sprite should have the Whip equipped at this stage. Afterwards the Sprite switches to the Axe for the Cave -> Boy equips the Spear without swap. It's obviously more time spent compared to simply killing the Spring Beak

Maybe somewhere else too?... I couldn't think of anything which wouldn't be at the mercy of getting no evasion on a boss.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-02-05 12:10:33 pm

Crow!: 2014-02-05 12:02:08 pm

2014-02-05 11:58:03 am

What's that gemma?

The Dragon Worm has 3525 HP. I presently enter it with Sylphid at level 2, which does minimal damage (~50). So long as I'm using Sylphid to kill Dragon Worm, chaincasted Sylphid spells (even those at Great Viper, which is equally laggy as Dragon Worm), comes at minimal time expenditure. So I'd be very surprised if a WCG at Great Viper paid off - unless, of course, I could also avoid casting Sylphid at Dragon Worm, at which point the Minotaurs would also just be WCG-ed down, and in fact I could kill fewer Silktails, taking a few Howler, Iffish, and/or Green Drop kills later on if needed.

So, let's take a look at the Dragon Worm. The time to beat with a WCG strategy is 2 minutes (which is how long the Sylphid strategy takes) + whatever time is saved on the other Sylphid bosses by going the physical route.

It would probably take 5 hits to kill (I'm not sure how the math works with maximum damage and low damage rolls, but averaging 800HP per strike would put it at 4.5 hits). Assuming a 70% hit rate (I think it's a bit less than that but I again don't remember the formulas), that's on average 7 attacks required on Dragon Worm.

Dragon Worm's behavior is.. rarely cooperative. It casts nasty spells and inflicts nasty status effects which must be cured (and which prevent charging). I'd have to deal with these more often if using WCG, but to be fair, I still have to deal with it while casting magic.

The biggest issue is its movement. It can pretend it's a Dragon (I mean, it kind of is) and leave the screen for extended periods of time while casting spells, or it can bum rush you and give your characters no opportunity to charge up. Ironically, the first situation is easier for a WCG based strategy to deal with.

Spamming Slow Down might help in the event the Worm goes aggressive - the Gnome casts are virutally free (I already cast Slow Down ~10 times vs Thunder Gigas), and if I'm already doing a takeover of the WCG, I can only make practical use of one character's WCG anyway. I'd probably swap to the Boy via casting Lucid Barrier on the whole party, which solves three problems (level Lumina, swap to the boy, don't get killed) simultaneously. As for the weapon, my instinct is to give the Boy the whip, whose attacks I find extremely easy to land.

I'll give it a shot on the emulator. If I can consistently complete the Dragon Worm fight without Sylphid in less than 4 minutes (and without dying...), then I'll go check how much time skipping Sylphid can save on the other two fights.

-----

Unrelated optimization: since you are granted a mana power of 8 upon obtaining Dryad, the only boss where I presently benefit from the dark seed's mana power is at Gorgon Bull. I can therefore probably skip talking to both the light and dark mana seeds and save ~15 seconds.

And another: would Stone Saber be worth it for killing Silktails faster? Re-petrifying a petrified target causes it to lose half its HP, and having a saber of any kind results in a damage boost. The girl's menu is already set to Gnome from Jabberwocky (heck, I could have cast Stone Saber as my spell for swapping to the Boy), and Grandpa restores your MP after Springbeak, so casting it during the Pebblers fight would likely take minimal time.

The Dragon Worm has 3525 HP.  I presently enter it with Sylphid at level 2, which does minimal damage (~50).  So long as I'm using Sylphid to kill Dragon Worm, chaincasted Sylphid spells (even those at Great Viper, which is equally laggy as Dragon Worm), comes at minimal time expenditure.  So I'd be very surprised if a WCG at Great Viper paid off - unless, of course, I could also avoid casting Sylphid at Dragon Worm, at which point the Minotaurs would also just be WCG-ed down, and in fact I could kill fewer Silktails, taking a few Howler, Iffish, and/or Green Drop kills later on if needed.

So, let's take a look at the Dragon Worm.  The time to beat with a WCG strategy is 2 minutes (which is how long the Sylphid strategy takes) + whatever time is saved on the other Sylphid bosses by going the physical route.

It would probably take 5 hits to kill (I'm not sure how the math works with maximum damage and low damage rolls, but averaging 800HP per strike would put it at 4.5 hits).  Assuming a 70% hit rate (I think it's a bit less than that but I again don't remember the formulas), that's on average 7 attacks required on Dragon Worm.

Dragon Worm's behavior is..  rarely cooperative.  It casts nasty spells and inflicts nasty status effects which must be cured (and which prevent charging).  I'd have to deal with these more often if using WCG, but to be fair, I still have to deal with it while casting magic.

The biggest issue is its movement.  It can pretend it's a Dragon (I mean, it kind of is) and leave the screen for extended periods of time while casting spells, or it can bum rush you and give your characters no opportunity to charge up.  Ironically, the first situation is easier for a WCG based strategy to deal with.

Spamming Slow Down might help in the event the Worm goes aggressive - the Gnome casts are virutally free (I already cast Slow Down ~10 times vs Thunder Gigas), and if I'm already doing a takeover of the WCG, I can only make practical use of one character's WCG anyway.  I'd probably swap to the Boy via casting Lucid Barrier on the whole party, which solves three problems (level Lumina, swap to the boy, don't get killed) simultaneously.  As for the weapon, my instinct is to give the Boy the whip, whose attacks I find extremely easy to land.

I'll give it a shot on the emulator.  If I can consistently complete the Dragon Worm fight without Sylphid in less than 4 minutes (and without dying...), then I'll go check how much time skipping Sylphid can save on the other two fights.

-----

Unrelated optimization: since you are granted a mana power of 8 upon obtaining Dryad, the only boss where I presently benefit from the dark seed's mana power is at Gorgon Bull.  I can therefore probably skip talking to both the light and dark mana seeds and save ~15 seconds.

And another: would Stone Saber be worth it for killing Silktails faster?  Re-petrifying a petrified target causes it to lose half its HP, and having a saber of any kind results in a damage boost.  The girl's menu is already set to Gnome from Jabberwocky (heck, I could have cast Stone Saber as my spell for swapping to the Boy), and Grandpa restores your MP after Springbeak, so casting it during the Pebblers fight would likely take minimal time.

Yagamoth

2014-02-05 12:10:26 pm

INTJ

I also agree with going with the Whip for the worms - although the whirlwind on the spear is extremely good. On one hand it makes your character immune to anything that isn't a spell and on the other hand it has a gigantic attack radius. On a sidenote, does the Sprite have the Axe leveled to 2 at this point?

You save time on the mana seeds, but they also give you spellpower. You'd have to check whether it's worth skipping them.

I like the idea with the Stone Saber. It sounds like a solid plan to test