Secret of Mana

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-01-16 10:21:52 am

Crow!: 2014-01-16 10:20:00 am

2014-01-16 10:19:19 am

What's that gemma?

A 1p2c run could probably get the Sprite's Axe (or any other weapon he can equip as the Boy starts working on level 2 Sword) up in time for the Mana Beast without too much trouble since you use physical attacks against all the bosses. The catch is that you would lose a lot of time to menuing, as you'd need to make sure the Sprite has a particular weapon equipped at the end of each boss fight.

Special mention goes to having the Sprite equip the Spear, swapping how the Girl and the Sprite are used entirely, as the Sprite would thereby have his eventual-level-2 weapon without additional menuing. You'd have to upgrade the spear at some point and therefore be careful not to let the Boy level up on it, though.

Yagamoth

2014-01-16 03:45:10 pm

INTJ

Quote from StingerPA:

I checked whether swapping to the axe would be faster since it would change the sprite's charge level at the same time, but it ends up being about 8 seconds to swap everything around optimally for just the Boy, and then it increases to 12 seconds when you include the Sprite. It takes a lot longer than expected because of the weapon swap animation, so it would be best to just change the charge level manually, it seems.

Interesting idea on multiple charges. It would save about 1:20 to one cycle the Mana Beast, but we'd need to level weapons up somehow in the run. That could cost us the minute saved there.

I assume your first point is about 1p1c - What about instead of "swapping" you simply move the menu over to the weapons and choose a weapon with the Boys menu?

About multiple charges: Depending on how you are going to pull it off, leveling up might not take too long in addition. Using AI overcharge might also be an option here, since then you'd only have to level up 1 additional weapon. In the end my hope would be, that having 2 charges could save more time on other bosses/lower the impact of RNG misses/low damage rolls. But you are right, doubling the swaps for a boss alone - it would have to be a really strong impact for it to be worthwhile.

Quote:

A 1p2c run could probably get the Sprite's Axe (or any other weapon he can equip as the Boy starts working on level 2 Sword) up in time for the Mana Beast without too much trouble since you use physical attacks against all the bosses. The catch is that you would lose a lot of time to menuing, as you'd need to make sure the Sprite has a particular weapon equipped at the end of each boss fight.

Special mention goes to having the Sprite equip the Spear, swapping how the Girl and the Sprite are used entirely, as the Sprite would thereby have his eventual-level-2 weapon without additional menuing. You'd have to upgrade the spear at some point and therefore be careful not to let the Boy level up on it, though.

Leveling up the Sword at the beginning as the Sprite might still be an option, simply due to us being able to unequip weapons via weapon trashing. It would take an additional few seconds to set up, but if it turns out to be optimal, it's still an option.

Not letting the Boy level up the Spear is indeed a concern. As mentioned earlier - simply swapping Sword -> Spear -> Sword would solve that issue, even though starting to charge with the Sword depending on boss will or will not lose time.

[quote="StingerPA"]I checked whether swapping to the axe would be faster since it would change the sprite's charge level at the same time, but it ends up being about 8 seconds to swap everything around optimally for just the Boy, and then it increases to 12 seconds when you include the Sprite.  It takes a lot longer than expected because of the weapon swap animation, so it would be best to just change the charge level manually, it seems.

Interesting idea on multiple charges.  It would save about 1:20 to one cycle the Mana Beast, but we'd need to level weapons up somehow in the run.  That could cost us the minute saved there.[/quote]

I assume your first point is about 1p1c - What about instead of "swapping" you simply move the menu over to the weapons and choose a weapon with the Boys menu?

About multiple charges: Depending on how you are going to pull it off, leveling up might not take too long in addition. Using AI overcharge might also be an option here, since then you'd only have to level up 1 additional weapon. In the end my hope would be, that having 2 charges could save more time on other bosses/lower the impact of RNG misses/low damage rolls. But you are right, doubling the swaps for a boss alone - it would have to be a really strong impact for it to be worthwhile.

[quote]A 1p2c run could probably get the Sprite's Axe (or any other weapon he can equip as the Boy starts working on level 2 Sword) up in time for the Mana Beast without too much trouble since you use physical attacks against all the bosses.  The catch is that you would lose a lot of time to menuing, as you'd need to make sure the Sprite has a particular weapon equipped at the end of each boss fight.

Special mention goes to having the Sprite equip the Spear, swapping how the Girl and the Sprite are used entirely, as the Sprite would thereby have his eventual-level-2 weapon without additional menuing.  You'd have to upgrade the spear at some point and therefore be careful not to let the Boy level up on it, though.[/quote]

Leveling up the Sword at the beginning as the Sprite might still be an option, simply due to us being able to unequip weapons via weapon trashing. It would take an additional few seconds to set up, but if it turns out to be optimal, it's still an option.

Not letting the Boy level up the Spear is indeed a concern. As mentioned earlier - simply swapping Sword -> Spear -> Sword would solve that issue, even though starting to charge with the Sword depending on boss will or will not lose time.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 05:31:19 am

2014-01-17 01:16:35 am

INTJ

Congratulations on the new record, Stinger ^^

Also, the PAL version also patched the Frost Forest Neko

Also, you seem to always play the Mana Beast way too risky Tongue

Still theorycrafting 1p3c with 2 overcharges in my head... I'll probably simply have to do a testrun

StingerPA

2014-01-17 08:39:11 am

Quote from Yagamoth:

Also, you seem to always play the Mana Beast way too risky Tongue

I generally assume that he won't cast lucent beam a billion times in a row, and it's usually not so risky. Besides, I knew I only had a couple hits left, so I decided to let the sprite die instead of wasting a menu. I didn't expect him to cast another one instantly.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 10:22:26 am

2014-01-17 09:56:58 am

INTJ

Ok, I did some tests for secondary overcharge with the Sprite:

- The Overcharge has to be way higher than the Boys to reach the maximum damage output, I assume this is because of the lower base stats for both the weapon (tested with Boomerang) and and Sprite
- Keep in mind, we don't necessarily have to use the Boy(Spear) for every boss if the Sprites weapon has better benefits (e.g. Boomerang double hit for the Boreal Face)
- Also, we don't have to use both overcharges. Again, simply use the weapon which is more useful for the fight
- The options for secondary weapons are...

Code:

+ [??] Whip
++> Ranged
++> Used for jumps

+ [??] Axe
++> Used for cutting & stones
++> Similar to Spear in animations (familiar)

- [??] Boomerang
--> Projectiles don't fly, needs melee hit
++> Chance on double hit

- [??] Sword
--> Requires other weapon for level 2 charge
++> Could result in interesting combos..

- Using the Boomerang has a chance to double hit... I do not know yet whether the double hit is simply reliant on specific overcharges, or whether its actually kind of random as touch-me describes in his TAS' notes. But if I keep the same overcharge it seems fairly frequent (if both attacks hit without the boss' evade). This is a strong option if it turns out to be reliable for the chance of double hits. It's currently my first choice

- Using the Whip provides a ranged attack option, which can have a really strong benefit for various fights (Mech Riders, Spring Beak... Maybe even Hexas with the Girl constantly healing herself?). Also it's a utility weapon used for some gap jumps. This would currently be my secondary choice.

- Using the Axe basically has no special benefit besides the utility for clearing stones and slashing bushes. This would be my last choice for now. It is probably more useful in an actual coop run.

- Using the Sword could result in interesting combos... But I have not thought this through. I don't think it is going to be useful enough to warrant the disadvantages. For now, I don't consider this as an option.

======================================

I have not thought much about how to level up the Sprites weapons yet. Initial ideas are:

After the Sprite joins:
- Give the Sprite the Sword (using the unequip Trashing with the Boy... Or maybe Sprite, since Sprite needs to be equipped at this point). Even if the weapon of choice happens to be the Boomerang or Axe, potentially gaining more weapon experience past level 1 could be more useful since the Sprite should still gain full weapon experience from last hits at this point.

- Keep the Boomerang or equip the Axe

Ok, I did some tests for secondary overcharge with the Sprite:

- The Overcharge has to be way higher than the Boys to reach the maximum damage output, I assume this is because of the lower base stats for both the weapon (tested with Boomerang) and and Sprite
- Keep in mind, we don't necessarily have to use the Boy(Spear) for every boss if the Sprites weapon has better benefits (e.g. Boomerang double hit for the Boreal Face)
- Also, we don't have to use both overcharges. Again, simply use the weapon which is more useful for the fight
- The options for secondary weapons are...
[code]+ [??] Whip
++> Ranged
++> Used for jumps

+ [??] Axe
++> Used for cutting & stones
++> Similar to Spear in animations (familiar)

- [??] Boomerang
--> Projectiles don't fly, needs melee hit
++> Chance on double hit

- [??] Sword
--> Requires other weapon for level 2 charge
++> Could result in interesting combos..[/code]

- Using the Boomerang has a chance to double hit... I do not know yet whether the double hit is simply reliant on specific overcharges, or whether its actually kind of random as touch-me describes in his TAS' notes. But if I keep the same overcharge it seems fairly frequent (if both attacks hit without the boss' evade). This is a strong option if it turns out to be reliable for the chance of double hits. It's currently my first choice

- Using the Whip provides a ranged attack option, which can have a really strong benefit for various fights (Mech Riders, Spring Beak... Maybe even Hexas with the Girl constantly healing herself?). Also it's a utility weapon used for some gap jumps. This would currently be my secondary choice.

- Using the Axe basically has no special benefit besides the utility for clearing stones and slashing bushes. This would be my last choice for now. It is probably more useful in an actual coop run.

- Using the Sword could result in interesting combos... But I have not thought this through. I don't think it is going to be useful enough to warrant the disadvantages. For now, I don't consider this as an option.

======================================

I have not thought much about how to level up the Sprites weapons yet. Initial ideas are:

After the Sprite joins:
- Give the Sprite the Sword (using the unequip Trashing with the Boy... Or maybe Sprite, since Sprite needs to be equipped at this point). Even if the weapon of choice happens to be the Boomerang or Axe, potentially gaining more weapon experience past level 1 could be more useful since the Sprite should still gain full weapon experience from last hits at this point.

- Keep the Boomerang or equip the Axe

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-01-17 10:11:40 am

Crow!: 2014-01-17 10:09:22 am

2014-01-17 10:07:32 am

What's that gemma?

I think you missed the most obvious advantage of the Sword, a 100% hit rate on Mana Beast. (Actually... would you have to do mana magic on both swords? I'm not sure...)

In 1p2c, if you find yourself needing a safety strat, you could cast Wall on the girl and/or sprite to ensure the Mana Beast casts Dispel on them instead of Lucid Beam on anyone. Just don't Wall the Boy, or Dispel will destroy the overcharge.

Also, if all three characters are low on HP, maybe you could cast Burst to get the other two characters levels (and therefore HP) via the Wall Glitch. This is obviously much less reliable (experience gained will be virtually random up to 65535), and it also depends on whether the sprite's intelligence is high enough for a level 0 burst to do damage through Neko equipment.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 11:28:11 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 10:46:38 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 10:42:12 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 10:41:23 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 10:36:57 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 10:27:38 am

2014-01-17 10:25:18 am

INTJ

Getting 2 mana swords is possible, but you'd need to go through the cutscene for the 2nd one, since equipping the Sword from the menu will result in the old level 2 sword.

--> The idea is somehow dealing 4 more hits as the Sprite during the Mana Beast fight, to 1 cycle it. My main concern about this is currently, that there is simply not enough time for the Mana Beast to stay and get the 19 hits in, even if they happen perfectly in a row.

Edit: Boomerang Double Hits seem to be specific to weapon overcharge level... Or probably more specifically, the animation executed. I have no way of proofing this, this is simply from a few tests.

--> Boomerang Double hits are only marginally faster compared to consecutive normal slashes. But the big plus is, they have twice the chance of hitting at least once. The disadvantage is, the range is very limited - which can play a significant factor depending on fight.

--> If the Spear is the level 2 weapon for the Sprite, the Boy could actually act as the swapper and let the Girl cast instead

Again, still only throwing around wild ideas, hoping to find something that is really good in the process.

========================================

Edit: Even crazier idea, using the Boomerang on the Boy and the Whip on the Sprite, ignoring the Spear?... Hitting the Vampire might be an even bigger pain though.

========================================

Edit 2:

Code:

Scale from 1 to 10, hitting the enemy and being in danger compared to
"how good it could optimally be using any weapon"...

Nothing scientific, just from gut feeling. If the Spear is 9 and the
Boomerang is 10, this means the Double hit chance gives a slight edge.
Also remember, the overcharged Boomerang doesn't fly.

               Spear   Boomerang   Whip
Spiky Tiger    10       7           -    (-)
Fire Gigas     10      ??          ??    (We know the spear is absolutely solid)
Wall Face       8      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit, Whip range & no chance of killing eyes)
Pebblers       10       5           7    (Whirlwind)
Kilroy          7       5          10    (Whip Range is extremely handy in case of a miss)
Jabberwocky     9      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Spring Beak     6       4          10    (Whip range is extrmely handy)
Great Viper    10       1           9    (Spear invul is strong, Whip range is good)
Mech Rider #1   7       9          10    (Boomerang x2 hit, Whip range)
Boreal Face     8      10          10    (Boomerang x2 hit, Whip range)
Ice Gigas      10       9           9    (Each has it's advantage)
Minorous        9      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Vampire        10       6           5    (Spear reach & animation is top tier)
Metal Mantis    8      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit, Whip range)
Mech Rider #2   9      10           7    (Whip can't hit close range)
Watermelon      9      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Mech Rider #3   9      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Buffy          10       6           6    (Spear reach & animation is top tier)
Big Slime       9      10?          9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Dark Lich       9      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Mana Beast      5       6           6    (Boomerang x2 hit)

^ Thoughts?

Getting 2 mana swords is possible, but you'd need to go through the cutscene for the 2nd one, since equipping the Sword from the menu will result in the old level 2 sword.

--> The idea is somehow dealing 4 more hits as the Sprite during the Mana Beast fight, to 1 cycle it. My main concern about this is currently, that there is simply not enough time for the Mana Beast to stay and get the 19 hits in, even if they happen perfectly in a row.

Edit: Boomerang Double Hits seem to be specific to weapon overcharge level... Or probably more specifically, the animation executed. I have no way of proofing this, this is simply from a few tests.

--> Boomerang Double hits are only marginally faster compared to consecutive normal slashes. But the big plus is, they have twice the chance of hitting at least once. The disadvantage is, the range is very limited - which can play a significant factor depending on fight.

--> If the Spear is the level 2 weapon for the Sprite, the Boy could actually act as the swapper and let the Girl cast instead

Again, still only throwing around wild ideas, hoping to find something that is really good in the process.

========================================

Edit: Even crazier idea, using the Boomerang on the Boy and the Whip on the Sprite, ignoring the Spear?... Hitting the Vampire might be an even bigger pain though.

========================================

Edit 2:

[code]Scale from 1 to 10, hitting the enemy and being in danger compared to
"how good it could optimally be using any weapon"...

Nothing scientific, just from gut feeling. If the Spear is 9 and the
Boomerang is 10, this means the Double hit chance gives a slight edge.
Also remember, the overcharged Boomerang doesn't fly.

Spear   Boomerang   Whip
Spiky Tiger    10       7           -    (-)
Fire Gigas     10      ??          ??    (We know the spear is absolutely solid)
Wall Face       8      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit, Whip range & no chance of killing eyes)
Pebblers       10       5           7    (Whirlwind)
Kilroy          7       5          10    (Whip Range is extremely handy in case of a miss)
Jabberwocky     9      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Spring Beak     6       4          10    (Whip range is extrmely handy)
Great Viper    10       1           9    (Spear invul is strong, Whip range is good)
Mech Rider #1   7       9          10    (Boomerang x2 hit, Whip range)
Boreal Face     8      10          10    (Boomerang x2 hit, Whip range)
Ice Gigas      10       9           9    (Each has it's advantage)
Minorous        9      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Vampire        10       6           5    (Spear reach & animation is top tier)
Metal Mantis    8      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit, Whip range)
Mech Rider #2   9      10           7    (Whip can't hit close range)
Watermelon      9      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Mech Rider #3   9      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Buffy          10       6           6    (Spear reach & animation is top tier)
Big Slime       9      10?          9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Dark Lich       9      10           9    (Boomerang x2 hit)
Mana Beast      5       6           6    (Boomerang x2 hit)[/code]

^ Thoughts?

LeonPowPow

2014-01-17 12:17:13 pm

Making a post to set up shop in this topic Cheesy

Have been watching Yagamoth run SoM for a long time now and am looking to get into it myself now with a friend and was wondering if there's any sort of routing pastebin or commentary video that would aid in the process of understanding the route? As it is I'm just watching some of Yaga and Stinger's run videos and following along however I'm sure there's a million things not mentioned or that I overlooked that go into the routing I should be aware of. Any help would be really great, really looking forward to learning into this game!

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 12:58:39 pm

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 12:58:07 pm

2014-01-17 12:41:26 pm

INTJ

Currently there is no such thing for the route, but it's also fairly straightforward in terms of where to go.

yes, there are a lot of small things and such we do, to get through pretty much all the screens. Also - no real notes or video for this.

For getting into it I recommend simply learn on the go for the first 'run'. Once you've done the entire thing once, it looks suddenly much easier. Watch mine or Stingers run alongside it, get extra ressources (Candy, Chocolate, Royal Jam, Gold City Equip after getting Flammie, Midge Mallet to eliminate spelldamage), read up on how to do the glitches if necessary, use saves/savestates.

Don't worry about the details until you get used to the base mechanics of SoM Smiley

============================

x2 hit Boomerang seems fairly simple as far as I can tell - The initial attack when swinging the Boomerang around has to be an actual attack, and then the Boomerang flying (on top of the Sprite) is the 2nd attack. So, it's really easy to manipulate..

Currently there is no such thing for the route, but it's also fairly straightforward in terms of where to go.

yes, there are a lot of small things and such we do, to get through pretty much all the screens. Also - no real notes or video for this.

For getting into it I recommend simply learn on the go for the first 'run'. Once you've done the entire thing once, it looks suddenly much easier. Watch mine or Stingers run alongside it, get extra ressources (Candy, Chocolate, Royal Jam, Gold City Equip after getting Flammie, Midge Mallet to eliminate spelldamage), read up on how to do the glitches if necessary, use saves/savestates.

Don't worry about the details until you get used to the base mechanics of SoM :)

============================

x2 hit Boomerang seems fairly simple as far as I can tell - The initial attack when swinging the Boomerang around has to be an actual attack, and then the Boomerang flying (on top of the Sprite) is the 2nd attack. So, it's really easy to manipulate..

Crow!

2014-01-17 01:48:18 pm

What's that gemma?

Useful links for a new runner:

Current 1p2c WR (by Stinger): http://www.twitch.tv/stingerpa/c/3560681

Current 1p1c route (by me, not WR): http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/c/3464103

Yagamoth's glitch explanation wiki page: https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Secret_of_Mana

1p2c means "1 player 2 controller", which SDA treats as a multiplayer run but is the most commonly run category. 1p1c means you can only use one controller, which severely limits the glitches available.

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2014-01-17 05:47:07 pm

2014-01-17 02:13:18 pm

Welcome Leon, we always have more room for runners in this game. Like Yaga said, there's not really a good base to learn the route from, but the KB page that details all the tricks and glitches should help you on your way to figuring things out. Some things there are a bit outdated, but I'm certain that if you look at what we do in the run and compare them to our runs, you can figure out what's needed. Feel free to ask us any questions if you need to.

Yaga, the main question here is how early do you want this 2nd weapon ready for boss fights? That'll determine the final amount of time possible to be saved. If it's just the Mana Beast, then you have a total of 1:10 (forgot to include exploding time before) that you can waste getting the extra weapon ready. If you want it earlier, that could increase the amount of time you can waste and still gain time overall.

Quote from StingerPA:

Here's one question. Let's say I could figure out a way to use overcharge to kill Spring Beak, but I still need magic to kill Thunder Gigas. Would that do me any good since I'd still need to level up Gnome later in the run? My initial thought is that it would be useless, and in fact would be slower because Gnome would still be at level 0 when you reach Thunder Gigas, plus you'd only be doing 1 damage for a good bit of the fight.

Quote from Crow!:

Any advantage to WCG-ing Spring Beak would come exclusively from the fact that during that fight, you have less MP and so have to stop to Walnut more often when casting magic against him than against Thunder Gigas. It's probably not worth it, even if it were safe.

I'm gonna go over some old ground with these posts. I noticed in your recent run that you used overcharges on some bosses like Lime Slime, even though you need Salamando for Snapdragon and Lime Slime. Is this just because you get Salamando to a high enough level for those guys anyways, or am I missing something?

EDIT: I'm actually practicing the fight now, and I can see why you do the overcharges. Salamando barely scratches him at this point, so overcharges combined with exploder are the quickest way to go.

Welcome Leon, we always have more room for runners in this game.  Like Yaga said, there's not really a good base to learn the route from, but the KB page that details all the tricks and glitches should help you on your way to figuring things out.  Some things there are a bit outdated, but I'm certain that if you look at what we do in the run and compare them to our runs, you can figure out what's needed.  Feel free to ask us any questions if you need to.

Yaga, the main question here is how early do you want this 2nd weapon ready for boss fights?  That'll determine the final amount of time possible to be saved.  If it's just the Mana Beast, then you have a total of 1:10 (forgot to include exploding time before) that you can waste getting the extra weapon ready.  If you want it earlier, that could increase the amount of time you can waste and still gain time overall.

[quote="StingerPA"]Here's one question.  Let's say I could figure out a way to use overcharge to kill Spring Beak, but I still need magic to kill Thunder Gigas.  Would that do me any good since I'd still need to level up Gnome later in the run?  My initial thought is that it would be useless, and in fact would be slower because Gnome would still be at level 0 when you reach Thunder Gigas, plus you'd only be doing 1 damage for a good bit of the fight.[/quote]
[quote="Crow!"]Any advantage to WCG-ing Spring Beak would come exclusively from the fact that during that fight, you have less MP and so have to stop to Walnut more often when casting magic against him than against Thunder Gigas.  It's probably not worth it, even if it were safe.[/quote]

I'm gonna go over some old ground with these posts.  I noticed in your recent run that you used overcharges on some bosses like Lime Slime, even though you need Salamando for Snapdragon and Lime Slime. Is this just because you get Salamando to a high enough level for those guys anyways, or am I missing something?

EDIT:  I'm actually practicing the fight now, and I can see why you do the overcharges.  Salamando barely scratches him at this point, so overcharges combined with exploder are the quickest way to go.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 02:30:27 pm

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 02:27:15 pm

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 02:25:42 pm

2014-01-17 02:17:43 pm

INTJ

Thank you crow, I didn't think about linking and pointing that out ^^;... A bit caught in my thoughts about the potential route change.

It's worth to note too, that 1p2c is actually considerably easier to initially learn, since you don't have to worry about magic, leveling and skip a fair amount of areas. The "2 controllers" is not much more than a simple trick to learn.

Also, welcome, newcomers are always nice Smiley

Quote:

Yaga, the main question here is how early do you want this 2nd weapon ready for boss fights? That'll determine the final amount of time possible to be saved. If it's just the Mana Beast, then you have a total of 1:10 (forgot to include exploding time before) that you can waste getting the extra weapon ready. If you want it earlier, that could increase the amount of time you can waste and still gain time overall.

It definitely has to be ready before the Mana Beast. The point about "which boss" is really good actually.. This should give me a solid entry point. I'll post something about this once I figured out more...

Edit: I'd say, after Kilroy, before Jabberwocky. I'd want to use the Boomerang for Jabberwocky.
--> I have no idea whether the Boomerang can even reach the Wall Faces main part (quite ironic for it being a range weapon ^^)
--> I don't want to get near the Kilroy without invulnerability of the spear animation
--> Oneshotting Jabberwocky is only a ~47% chance with the Spear. Having two consecutive attacks with the Boomerang would raise that chance to ~71%. It takes a bit longer to charge up the Boomerang, but I'm pretty sure that on average over the runs we'll kill the Jabberwocky considerably faster = reduce RNG

Also, using the Whip for various bosses is - interestingly enough - quite amazing and easy. But I think unless the Mana Beast quick kill only works with the Whip, the Boomerang double hit outweighs the range advantage. So I'm going with the Boomerang for now.

Thank you crow, I didn't think about linking and pointing that out ^^;... A bit caught in my thoughts about the potential route change.

It's worth to note too, that 1p2c is actually considerably easier to initially learn, since you don't have to worry about magic, leveling and skip a fair amount of areas. The "2 controllers" is not much more than a simple trick to learn.

Also, welcome, newcomers are always nice :)

[quote]Yaga, the main question here is how early do you want this 2nd weapon ready for boss fights?  That'll determine the final amount of time possible to be saved.  If it's just the Mana Beast, then you have a total of 1:10 (forgot to include exploding time before) that you can waste getting the extra weapon ready.  If you want it earlier, that could increase the amount of time you can waste and still gain time overall.  [/quote]

It definitely has to be ready before the Mana Beast. The point about "which boss" is really good actually.. This should give me a solid entry point. I'll post something about this once I figured out more...

Edit: I'd say, after Kilroy, before Jabberwocky. I'd want to use the Boomerang for Jabberwocky.
--> I have no idea whether the Boomerang can even reach the Wall Faces main part (quite ironic for it being a range weapon ^^)
--> I don't want to get near the Kilroy without invulnerability of the spear animation
--> Oneshotting Jabberwocky is only a ~47% chance with the Spear. Having two consecutive attacks with the Boomerang would raise that chance to ~71%. It takes a bit longer to charge up the Boomerang, but I'm pretty sure that on average over the runs we'll kill the Jabberwocky considerably faster = reduce RNG

Also, using the Whip for various bosses is - interestingly enough - quite amazing and easy. But I think unless the Mana Beast quick kill only works with the Whip, the Boomerang double hit outweighs the range advantage. So I'm going with the Boomerang for now.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 04:31:23 pm

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 04:29:42 pm

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 03:27:08 pm

Yagamoth: 2014-01-17 03:15:21 pm

2014-01-17 02:52:03 pm

INTJ

Ok, here's the rough draft for leveling the weapons:

After the Sprite joins:
--> Boy levels his Sword to level 2, as usual, Sprite equips Armor and keeps Boomerang, as usual
--> Sprite makes sure to last hit the Flowers and maybe Mushroom (it's still full Weap. exp. for him, but not for the Boy)
--> Kill the Spiky Tiger as usual, Sprites Boomerang should be close to level up now... Or already leveled up
--> Before the first Whip-Gap, the Sprites Boomerang should level up
--> The Girl equips the Whip to cross the gap instead of the Sprite, Sprite equips the Sword
--> Sprite is now the weapon-swapper and gets experience from Tanpole, Fire Gigas, Face Wall and Kilroy
--> Along the way, kill a lot of small enemies, which only give half the weapon experience anyway, so it doesn't matter who kills them (Boy should oneshot Flowers and Rabites at this point, kill the Bee you land on)
--> Along the way, after killing the Kilroy the Sprites Sword should now be level 2, so he can take out Jabberwocky

It may be more efficient to take out the 2 additional Flowers while getting out of Gaias Navel along the way, since the Sprite still gets full weapon experience)

===================================

More specific, optimal kills for the Boy reaching level 2 sword just before Spiky Tiger, while the Sprite has the Boomerang equipped:

[Boy] - (Sprite)
[1.08] - (0.00) Sprite Joins
[1.24] - (0.08) Kill 2 Bees
[1.32] - (0.26) Kill 2 Flowers, last hit with Sprite
[1.40] - (0.30) Kill Bow Rat
[1.56] - (0.38) Kill 2 Wolves
[1.72] - (0.46) Kill 2 Bow Rats + Eye Spy
[1.84] - (0.59) Kill 1 Bow Rat + Eye Spy (Let Sprite last hit the Bow Rat)
[2.00] - (0.66) Kill 2 Chairs

Basically, for my route I'd have to kill an additional 0.34 points of enemies before the Whip Gap. Considering there are no really easy enemies before Tanpole, I might as well level up the Boomerang before Spiky, and do the weapon swapping for the first overcharge with the Sprite.

Considering this, it's more efficient to kill some more enemies along the way to Spiky Tiger, so the Boy benefits from the leech experience. Currently I still don't know how far I can level up the Sword from 0 to 2 with only killing enemies along the way.

==============================

Edit: I just now killed a ton of enemies along the way (which most likely costed me more than 2 minutes already), killed Jabberwocky with the Spear and went to the canon. The Sword is now level 1.56. So this means, it would require 11 more enemies before the Boomerang is usable if the Sprite doesn't last hit. So, considering the 3 pebblers, thats 8 more bosses -> so this would be after Metal Mantis...

So... That costs a lot of time. The main problem is, after the Spiky Tiger, the Sprite is too high level to gain full weapon experience from all enemies. So my idea now is, to level up much more before the Spiky Tiger - utlizing the unequip trashing... Thinking about it:

- Unequipping the Sword as the Boy
--> Buy an additional Helmet... I'd set this up right after getting the Axe from Watts, simply run to the left, touch the lava and trash -> X to equip the Sprite and equip the sword at the end... Not sure if that's optimal. It's more out the way than simply doing a seperate menu outside the item shop, and I'd have to go back for the Magic Rope afterwards anyways...

I'm currently too confused to do this puzzle.

Ok, here's the rough draft for leveling the weapons:

After the Sprite joins:
--> Boy levels his Sword to level 2, as usual, Sprite equips Armor and keeps Boomerang, as usual
--> Sprite makes sure to last hit the Flowers and maybe Mushroom (it's still full Weap. exp. for him, but not for the Boy)
--> Kill the Spiky Tiger as usual, Sprites Boomerang should be close to level up now... Or already leveled up
--> Before the first Whip-Gap, the Sprites Boomerang should level up
--> The Girl equips the Whip to cross the gap instead of the Sprite, Sprite equips the Sword
--> Sprite is now the weapon-swapper and gets experience from Tanpole, Fire Gigas, Face Wall and Kilroy
--> Along the way, kill a lot of small enemies, which only give half the weapon experience anyway, so it doesn't matter who kills them (Boy should oneshot Flowers and Rabites at this point, kill the Bee you land on)
--> Along the way, after killing the Kilroy the Sprites Sword should now be level 2, so he can take out Jabberwocky

It may be more efficient to take out the 2 additional Flowers while getting out of Gaias Navel along the way, since the Sprite still gets full weapon experience)

===================================

More specific, optimal kills for the Boy reaching level 2 sword just before Spiky Tiger, while the Sprite has the Boomerang equipped:

[Boy] - (Sprite)
[1.08] - (0.00) Sprite Joins
[1.24] - (0.08) Kill 2 Bees
[1.32] - (0.26) Kill 2 Flowers, last hit with Sprite
[1.40] - (0.30) Kill Bow Rat
[1.56] - (0.38) Kill 2 Wolves
[1.72] - (0.46) Kill 2 Bow Rats + Eye Spy
[1.84] - (0.59) Kill 1 Bow Rat + Eye Spy (Let Sprite last hit the Bow Rat)
[2.00] - (0.66) Kill 2 Chairs

Basically, for my route I'd have to kill an additional 0.34 points of enemies before the Whip Gap. Considering there are no really easy enemies before Tanpole, I might as well level up the Boomerang before Spiky, and do the weapon swapping for the first overcharge with the Sprite.

Considering this, it's more efficient to kill some more enemies along the way to Spiky Tiger, so the Boy benefits from the leech experience. Currently I still don't know how far I can level up the Sword from 0 to 2 with only killing enemies along the way.

==============================

Edit: I just now killed a ton of enemies along the way (which most likely costed me more than 2 minutes already), killed Jabberwocky with the Spear and went to the canon. The Sword is now level 1.56. So this means, it would require 11 more enemies before the Boomerang is usable if the Sprite doesn't last hit. So, considering the 3 pebblers, thats 8 more bosses -> so this would be after Metal Mantis...

So... That costs a lot of time. The main problem is, after the Spiky Tiger, the Sprite is too high level to gain full weapon experience from all enemies. So my idea now is, to level up much more before the Spiky Tiger - utlizing the unequip trashing... Thinking about it:

- Unequipping the Sword as the Boy
--> Buy an additional Helmet... I'd set this up right after getting the Axe from Watts, simply run to the left, touch the lava and trash -> X to equip the Sprite and equip the sword at the end... Not sure if that's optimal. It's more out the way than simply doing a seperate menu outside the item shop, and I'd have to go back for the Magic Rope afterwards anyways...

I'm currently too confused to do this puzzle.

StingerPA

2014-01-17 04:03:45 pm

For your kill route, you forgot to include the Eye Spy + 2 Chobin Hoods in the area before Elinee's Castle.

Yagamoth

2014-01-17 04:30:32 pm

INTJ

Quote from StingerPA:

For your kill route, you forgot to include the Eye Spy + 2 Chobin Hoods in the area before Elinee's Castle.

Oh... That's why I had to include 2 more random enemies

Crow!

2014-01-17 09:30:01 pm

What's that gemma?

Does the triple tonpole fight count as three enemies for weapon experience?

Casting magic on a boss is "free", time-wise, if there's another fight somewhere down the road where the magic will be needed, but won't be strong enough to deal damage when you arrive. Otherwise, the amazing DPS of using overcharged weapon strikes now will almost assuredly save more time than the increase in magic damage down the line.

In the case of Lime Slime specifically, killing that high HP boss with magic alone would train Salamando to a higher level than is required to defeat the Snow Dragon.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-01-18 01:53:31 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-18 01:31:56 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-18 01:24:08 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-18 01:03:04 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-18 12:59:28 am

2014-01-18 12:18:04 am

INTJ

Also a simple rule of thumb - leveling up from 0 to 2 is MUCH more valuable in terms of strength compared to leveling up from 2 to 4.

Edit: Small update to my killroute: The Boomerang does not have to be ready for Jabberwocky. The Boomerang is too short ranged for it to be worthwhile against the Jabberwocky.... Which is concerning. But it gives me an additional 3 kills on the way from the Waterpalace to the Canon, from the Jabberwocky, 3 Pebblers, Spring Beak and Great Viper until it's potentially useful again.

Edit 2: Not really worth it for the Mech Rider #1 either. Again, Boomerang range is way too short and slow to get a reliable double hit.

Edit 3: It's ok for the Boreal face, but the double hit will not prevent him from diving down at least once.

Edit 4: Frost Gigas is meh... I didn't manage to make the Boomerang double hit once.

Yagamoth

2014-01-19 03:24:14 am

INTJ

On another sidenote:
- Why do we want to level up the Spear before the Dwarven Village?
-- It's convenient, but is it actuallly faster?

I mean, think about it: Goblins take 3 + 1 hit initially to kill. Once you level up, it's 3 hits - with the chance of being 4 with a single low damage roll. After we get the Sprite, killing a Buzz Bee is 2 hits from the Boy + 1 hit from the Sprite (Boy leveled up and the Strength Armband adds a significant amount of damage). Manipulating 3 Bee Spawns and killing some bats + Bees in Elinees forest, waiting for the 2nd Bow Rat at the first Eye Spy, potentially killing the Bow Rats at the last Eye Spy might be actually faster, despite the two additional weapon changes (To the Spear and back to the Sword... Or simply level up the Sword and then swap and finish up the spear).

Your spreadsheet should be really handy for this Stinger. Maybe it's worth killing some goblins, but the more I think about it, the less I'm convinced it's worth killing all the ones we currently kill, risking a 4-shot along the way.

On another sidenote:
- Why do we want to level up the Spear before the Dwarven Village?
-- It's convenient, but is it actuallly faster?

I mean, think about it: Goblins take 3 + 1 hit initially to kill. Once you level up, it's 3 hits - with the chance of being 4 with a single low damage roll. After we get the Sprite, killing a Buzz Bee is 2 hits from the Boy + 1 hit from the Sprite (Boy leveled up and the Strength Armband adds a significant amount of damage). Manipulating 3 Bee Spawns and killing some bats + Bees in Elinees forest, waiting for the 2nd Bow Rat at the first Eye Spy, potentially killing the Bow Rats at the last Eye Spy might be actually faster, despite the two additional weapon changes (To the Spear and back to the Sword... Or simply level up the Sword and then swap and finish up the spear).

Your spreadsheet should be really handy for this Stinger. Maybe it's worth killing some goblins, but the more I think about it, the less I'm convinced it's worth killing all the ones we currently kill, risking a 4-shot along the way.

StingerPA

2014-01-19 05:19:38 pm

I'll see about testing those next week. If I'm not too lazy, maybe I can actually get some work done on that front. I would still recommend killing the 2 goblins in the first switch room, the 2 goblins in the chest room, and at least attempting the switch hit in the final switch room. Those are very quick kills, so I don't see any issues keeping those in.

Yagamoth

2014-01-19 08:50:36 pm

INTJ

I'd say, you want to kill at least as many Goblins, to level up the Boy to the next level. I'm not sure about the ones in the Chest room and the last Goblin, but the 2 next to the switch are absolutely in the killroute.

Yagamoth

2014-01-21 04:04:32 am

INTJ

Interesting tidbit from HHS' post on the tasvideos forums:

The bosses use a different set of rng-numbers compared to everything else. Potentially we can for example determine by looking at the Doom Wall, what the Vampire is going to do?... Or maybe, if we mess up the Tropicallo, the Spiky Tiger is more likely to jump away? I wonder.

StingerPA

2014-01-21 10:45:41 am

That's true, although I hadn't put it in that perspective before. When I was doing my theory tas, I got a bad RNG on Doom's Wall, and I tried to go back to the beginning of the 2nd Ruins to change that, but the RNG stayed the same. Maybe if I had gone back to the previous boss, I could have changed the RNG on Doom's Wall.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-01-21 11:11:08 am

Yagamoth: 2014-01-21 11:06:55 am

2014-01-21 11:01:59 am

INTJ

Yes, that's exactly what I getting at.

I do not know whether it's reasonably possible to determine sequence of states of that boss RNG number (thus manipulating desired actions), but maybe we can work with it. In any case, I'll include it in my RAM watch when I go back to routing.

The hope would be, to be able to "count the steps" of boss actions and then determine what the next boss is going to do.

StingerPA

Edit history:

StingerPA: 2014-01-21 04:24:59 pm

StingerPA: 2014-01-21 04:24:42 pm

2014-01-21 02:46:41 pm

Possible new Mana Beast strat for 1 Controller courtesy of Yagamoth's musings in my chat yesterday: Only use the Boy to do overcharges, and have the Sprite use Dispel Magic to lock the Mana Beast in place. I just did a test, and with no refinement I saved 3 minutes over my Mana Beast from yesterday, and 1 1/2 minutes over Crow's record Mana Beast. I killed it on the first hit of the 4th cycle with 1 crit in the mix, so a 3 cycle is definitely possible with more refined castings than I just did.

Edit: After more testing, I'm not certain this is actually going to save time. I just did a test with the old strat of simply overcharging the boy and sprite, and came in at about the same time as my best attempt so far with Dispel. I also did a few more tests with Dispel, and they came in about a minute slower than my initial test.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-01-21 10:03:31 pm

Crow!: 2014-01-21 10:03:06 pm

2014-01-21 06:45:51 pm

What's that gemma?

I have various convoluted strategies for the Mana Beast (some of which are demonstrated in the WR), but in practice, just whacking away with WCGs seems to be the most consistent method. I think there are specific situations where casting Dispel is profitable, but not by much and the situation shows up no more than once or twice per cycle.

Incidentally, if there were a way to know when the Mana Beast was going to cast lucid beam, getting it to attack while the boy has his overcharge might be good, as it sets up for a hit by the sprite, then 2 in rapid succession by the boy, then another by the sprite.

I'll also note that Musashi's Mana Beast time is super fast, using strategies that work as well as they do because of having collected Luna and having leveled both it and Shade.