Secret of Mana

2013-09-24 03:08:06 pm

What's that gemma?

When you arrive at the Mana Beast afterward, do you have to cast Mana Magic again or can you go straight to an elemental saber spell for the infinite mana sword glitch?

Yagamoth

2013-09-24 03:11:10 pm

INTJ

You simply cast enchant weapon with any element and there you go. To be completely honest, I didn't try hitting the beast with it. But everything points towards this working
- The Mana Sword will expire after some time
- The sword is green
- When swapping weapon the Boy has some like 165 -> 56 when hovering over other weapons

Crow!

2013-09-24 10:42:08 pm

What's that gemma?

I got a 1c time of 3:28 today. This was despite dying at the Shadows fight (again..) and having the worst case scenario happen at Dread Slime, necessitating leveling up Shade all the way from level zero. I'll not be streaming it, as a low frequency buzz somehow got into the recording audio line without me realizing.

Two pieces of new tech saved time in the early game:

1. Double walnut slots at front of inventory. I would let one go down to 2 remaining, then I'd spend the next until it went down to 2 itself OR I needed to restock Cups or Herbs. This meant I could consistently double-up on the value of a equipment trashing setup.

2. Pileing on to a vulnerable enemy. Some of the enemies' hurt animations leave them vulnerable to further attack, and while this is active you can spam attacks from all three characters to kill it very fast; when it recovers from the hit stun of the first attack, it will suddenly take all the subsequent damage you dealt as though the last character to attack it dealt all that damage at once.

In a 2c run, this will pretty much only be relevant vs the chairs in front of Elinee.

In my 1c run, where I was previously struggling to find the sprite weapon experience, I was this time able to slaughter Chobin Hoods, Blats, and Mushbooms very quickly while donating the kill to whoever I wished to. More interesting is that Silktails are particularly vulnerable to this technique.

After this run was over, I tested it out, and found that by killing some Silktails on each of the three visits to the Spring screen, I can quickly get the sprite to level 13, which comes with 12 MP rather than 11, which should make the Great Viper fight far faster (Air Blast and Silence both suck, and Thunderbolt costs 4) - and this also means a lot of weapon experience for the Sprite, to the point where double WCG might even be ready in time for Boreal Face.

A not so helpful bug - it appears that the Crystal Orbs don't actually look at what spell hit them to determine whether you cast the correct spell. They merely consider what spell you most recently cast. This means that if you cast Silence on a Pebbler immediately after casting Earth Slide on the orb, then the Matango cave orb will fail to trigger, whereas casting Silence on the orb followed by Earth Slide on a Pebbler will trigger it.

The mana sword thing Yagamoth described worked correctly.

I think I need to spend the first ~30 seconds of the Dread Slime fight simply putting my characters into position, without even bothering to attack, or maybe with one attack to make it easier to get my characters stuck in position after they're where they should be. I think Wall on the girl might even be in order, as losing control of a character's position is absolutely disastrous; I should be using curatives to prevent the spell's knockback, and this requires that I have a character I can rely on bringing up the item ring of whenever I feel like it.

Once the characters are stuck in position, it's the easiest WCG fight ever. Until then, it's slow and dangerous.

I got a 1c time of 3:28 today.  This was despite [b]dying [/b] at the Shadows fight (again..) and having the worst case scenario happen at Dread Slime, necessitating leveling up Shade all the way from level zero.  I'll not be streaming it, as a low frequency buzz somehow got into the recording audio line without me realizing.

Two pieces of new tech saved time in the early game:

1. Double walnut slots at front of inventory.  I would let one go down to 2 remaining, then I'd spend the next until it went down to 2 itself OR I needed to restock Cups or Herbs.  This meant I could consistently double-up on the value of a equipment trashing setup.

2. Pileing on to a vulnerable enemy.  Some of the enemies' hurt animations leave them vulnerable to further attack, and while this is active you can spam attacks from all three characters to kill it very fast; when it recovers from the hit stun of the first attack, it will suddenly take all the subsequent damage you dealt as though the last character to attack it dealt all that damage at once.

In a 2c run, this will pretty much only be relevant vs the chairs in front of Elinee.

In my 1c run, where I was previously struggling to find the sprite weapon experience, I was this time able to slaughter Chobin Hoods, Blats, and Mushbooms very quickly while donating the kill to whoever I wished to.  More interesting is that Silktails are particularly vulnerable to this technique.

After this run was over, I tested it out, and found that by killing some Silktails on each of the three visits to the Spring screen, I can quickly get the sprite to level 13, which comes with 12 MP rather than 11, which should make the Great Viper fight far faster (Air Blast and Silence both suck, and Thunderbolt costs 4) - and this also means a lot of weapon experience for the Sprite, to the point where double WCG might even be ready in time for Boreal Face.

A not so helpful bug - it appears that the Crystal Orbs don't actually look at what spell hit them to determine whether you cast the correct spell.  They merely consider what spell you most recently cast.  This means that if you cast Silence on a Pebbler immediately after casting Earth Slide on the orb, then the Matango cave orb will fail to trigger, whereas casting Silence on the orb followed by Earth Slide on a Pebbler will trigger it.

The mana sword thing Yagamoth described worked correctly.

I think I need to spend the first ~30 seconds of the Dread Slime fight simply putting my characters into position, without even bothering to attack, or maybe with one attack to make it easier to get my characters stuck in position after they're where they should be.  I think Wall on the girl might even be in order, as losing control of a character's position is absolutely disastrous; I should be using curatives to prevent the spell's knockback, and this requires that I have a character I can rely on bringing up the item ring of whenever I feel like it.

Once the characters are stuck in position, it's the easiest WCG fight ever.  Until then, it's slow and dangerous.

Yagamoth

2013-09-25 06:19:38 am

INTJ

Quote:

1. Double walnut slots at front of inventory. I would let one go down to 2 remaining, then I'd spend the next until it went down to 2 itself OR I needed to restock Cups or Herbs. This meant I could consistently double-up on the value of a equipment trashing setup.

I didn't even think about that.. Clever. Simply never attempt to thrash while you have 3 items ^^

Quote:

2. Pileing on to a vulnerable enemy. Some of the enemies' hurt animations leave them vulnerable to further attack, and while this is active you can spam attacks from all three characters to kill it very fast; when it recovers from the hit stun of the first attack, it will suddenly take all the subsequent damage you dealt as though the last character to attack it dealt all that damage at once.

I actually do remember encountering this at some point when I started playing the NTSC Version, that the damage adds up, but when I tried to replicate this by repeatedly hitting an enemy with the Boy alone, it didn't work, so I forgot about this... Nice catch. Are there any specifics to this? Or is it simply important, that the enemy has to be in a vulnerable hurt-animation?

Both of Silktails hurt-animations are vulnerable, so this makes sense. For e.g. the Fishmen, only the "badly hurt"-animation is vulnerable. So, Silktails are a very good option indeed.

The bug is news to me.

30 Seconds on the Dread slime seems like a lot. But I assume it's mostly for safety since the characters will get stuck after a few hits, so it does make a lot of sense.

[quote]1. Double walnut slots at front of inventory.  I would let one go down to 2 remaining, then I'd spend the next until it went down to 2 itself OR I needed to restock Cups or Herbs.  This meant I could consistently double-up on the value of a equipment trashing setup.[/quote]

I didn't even think about that.. Clever. Simply never attempt to thrash while you have 3 items ^^

[quote]2. Pileing on to a vulnerable enemy.  Some of the enemies' hurt animations leave them vulnerable to further attack, and while this is active you can spam attacks from all three characters to kill it very fast; when it recovers from the hit stun of the first attack, it will suddenly take all the subsequent damage you dealt as though the last character to attack it dealt all that damage at once.[/quote]

I actually do remember encountering this at some point when I started playing the NTSC Version, that the damage adds up, but when I tried to replicate this by repeatedly hitting an enemy with the Boy alone, it didn't work, so I forgot about this... Nice catch. Are there any specifics to this? Or is it simply important, that the enemy has to be in a vulnerable hurt-animation?

Both of Silktails hurt-animations are vulnerable, so this makes sense. For e.g. the Fishmen, only the "badly hurt"-animation is vulnerable. So, Silktails are a very good option indeed.

The bug is news to me.

30 Seconds on the Dread slime seems like a lot. But I assume it's mostly for safety since the characters will get stuck after a few hits, so it does make a lot of sense.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2013-09-25 02:34:04 pm

2013-09-25 02:31:34 pm

What's that gemma?

I actually did mistakenly trash with 3 walnuts at one point; doing this is much less of a disaster when you maintain a second walnut slot to fall back on than with my previous strategy.

Another 2c-relevant application for stacking damage on vulnerable enemies: the Werewolves are vulnerable when they are either in their casting animation or are waiting around for the blue numbers to disappear. You can often score enough hits this way that they get knocked onto the ground, which is itself a vulnerable animation. (And in case it wasn't clear, wait for 100% before swinging; repeated weak attacks don't seem to stack properly, although a partial attack can still change who gets credit for the kill).

Attached to this post is a video demonstration that this works (mainly because I wanted to make sure the latest version of Yua was encoding fine), though the opportunity to score much more damage was clearly there and clearly squandered. Forgive the audio buzz; I have since corrected that problem (and, I believe, made myself able to record with the computer at a much more comfortable position).

-----

For a point of reference, should the Dread Slime split your party and require Shade as a backup, the fight will take around 10 minutes, while a merely "bad" fight (like in my most recent stream) takes 5:30. Hitting the slime happens much faster once the AI cannot move and so stops worrying about the fact that it can't get into its preferred position, so I think walking two AIs in the lower right corner and waiting with the girl mostly to the left and slightly up until the slime meanders across the screen will save time by getting myself consistently into the "good" category for the rest of the fight, rather than bobbing between good and bad.

I practiced a bit in an emulator, and I can pretty consistently get 3:45 at Dread Slime now, with some times clocking in at less than 3 minutes. Casting Wall on the girl definitely pays off, while casting Wall on everyone costs about 45 seconds but avoids the threat of abysmal RNG (one acid rain on the Boy or Sprite as I try to get in position is fine, multiples can delay my positioning until the slime is so close he interferes). Here's my current strategy:

- Start the fight with the girl selected. Dash down as far as you can, then cast Wall on self.

- Set the Boy and Sprite's AI grids to the upper right corner - that's full guard + approach, until they get pinned into position, at which point move the grid one downward. This still lets them charge up their attacks, while making it much easier to stop them from spreading out as the slime approaches.

- Get all AIs stuck on the underside of the crystal on the far right of the stage. Using the bottom right corner usually works but sometimes doesn't. The Dread Slime seems to have very strange rules about how close it will move to the outer border of the stage, and if it doesn't move far enough, it's Shade time. The crystals in the middle of the stage can work but I can't seem to establish position on them reliably.

- Make sure characters don't get knocked out of position. This can be accomplished with Wall while getting set up, and by having the girl face away from the slime after she is in position. (If, after getting set up, the girl does get hit when facing the wrong way, you can partially repair this by selecting that character and holding the control pad in the direction you don't want to go; you'll wind up traveling a few pixels in the wrong direction but not the 2-3 tile, run-destroying disaster that Acid Rain would otherwise inflict. If the few pixels is still unacceptable, cancel the attack with a Midge Mallet issued from the sprte, though this will probably delay a WCG.)

- As the fight progresses, count the number of Acid Rains that get reflected. Once 2 reflects occur, refresh the girl's wall.

- If both the boy and the sprite charge up at about the same time (not guaranteed with the acid rains), get them both overcharging simultaneously, then release them by pressing select rather than bothering with the targeting command. Never do this while the girl's wall is down.

Remember that characters are always allowed to move away from the center of the slime, even if they're inside the goo. Before you score a single WCG hit, your characters had better be in their final positions with no room to retreat, as every pixel moved from that point onward is permanent.

Attached to this is a picture of the setup I'm presently going for. The red box is the approximate boundaries of the arena.

I actually did mistakenly trash with 3 walnuts at one point; doing this is much less of a disaster when you maintain a second walnut slot to fall back on than with my previous strategy.

Another 2c-relevant application for stacking damage on vulnerable enemies: the Werewolves are vulnerable when they are either in their casting animation or are waiting around for the blue numbers to disappear.  You can often score enough hits this way that they get knocked onto the ground, which is itself a vulnerable animation.  (And in case it wasn't clear, wait for 100% before swinging; repeated weak attacks don't seem to stack properly, although a partial attack can still change who gets credit for the kill).

Attached to this post is a video demonstration that this works (mainly because I wanted to make sure the latest version of Yua was encoding fine), though the opportunity to score much more damage was clearly there and clearly squandered.  Forgive the audio buzz; I have since corrected that problem (and, I believe, made myself able to record with the computer at a much more comfortable position).

-----

For a point of reference, should the Dread Slime split your party and require Shade as a backup, the fight will take around 10 minutes, while a merely "bad" fight (like in my most recent stream) takes 5:30.  Hitting the slime happens [i]much [/i] faster once the AI cannot move and so stops worrying about the fact that it can't get into its preferred position, so I think walking two AIs in the lower right corner and waiting with the girl mostly to the left and slightly up until the slime meanders across the screen will save time by getting myself consistently into the "good" category for the rest of the fight, rather than bobbing between good and bad.

I practiced a bit in an emulator, and I can pretty consistently get 3:45 at Dread Slime now, with some times clocking in at less than 3 minutes.  Casting Wall on the girl definitely pays off, while casting Wall on everyone costs about 45 seconds but avoids the threat of abysmal RNG (one acid rain on the Boy or Sprite as I try to get in position is fine, multiples can delay my positioning until the slime is so close he interferes).  Here's my current strategy:

- Start the fight with the girl selected.  Dash down as far as you can, then cast Wall on self.

- Set the Boy and Sprite's AI grids to the upper right corner - that's full guard + approach, until they get pinned into position, at which point move the grid one downward.  This still lets them charge up their attacks, while making it much easier to stop them from spreading out as the slime approaches.

- Get all AIs stuck on the underside of the crystal on the far right of the stage.  Using the bottom right corner usually works but sometimes doesn't.  The Dread Slime seems to have very strange rules about how close it will move to the outer border of the stage, and if it doesn't move far enough, it's Shade time.  The crystals in the middle of the stage can work but I can't seem to establish position on them reliably.

- Make sure characters don't get knocked out of position.  This can be accomplished with Wall while getting set up, and by having the girl face away from the slime after she is in position.  (If, after getting set up, the girl does get hit when facing the wrong way, you can partially repair this by selecting that character and holding the control pad in the direction you don't want to go; you'll wind up traveling a few pixels in the wrong direction but not the 2-3 tile, run-destroying disaster that Acid Rain would otherwise inflict.  If the few pixels is still unacceptable, cancel the attack with a Midge Mallet issued from the sprte, though this will probably delay a WCG.)

- As the fight progresses, count the number of Acid Rains that get reflected.  Once 2 reflects occur, refresh the girl's wall.

- If both the boy and the sprite charge up at about the same time (not guaranteed with the acid rains), get them both overcharging simultaneously, then release them by pressing select rather than bothering with the targeting command.  Never do this while the girl's wall is down.

Remember that characters are always allowed to move away from the center of the slime, even if they're inside the goo.  Before you score a single WCG hit, your characters had better be in their final positions with no room to retreat, as every pixel moved from that point onward is permanent.

Attached to this is a picture of the setup I'm presently going for.  The red box is the approximate boundaries of the arena.

Attachments:

Dread Slime Setup.png

WerewolfFight.mp4

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-09-25 02:56:42 pm

2013-09-25 02:41:34 pm

INTJ

Quote:

repeated weak attacks don't seem to stack properly

Oh... That's actually what I meant - I was aware of the other mechanic oô

I actually have some information on the Dread Slimes room - not sure if you know that:
- The Dream Slime room is actually very small, but you can wrap around -> e.g. Move to the right away from the Slime and eventually run into it again towards the right
- Also, this room seems to have an interesting property: The rooms size does not seem to be the same as the "actual room size".. It's a bit hard to explain. But, try wrapping the screen a few times towards one direction and you will notice (unless my memory is horribly messed up once more), that the "pillers/crystals" will be in a different position relative to the slime on each wrap-around. This may help you get into a better position faster.

----------------------------------------------------

Edit: Oh, oh, oh, I actually forgot something
-> The TAS is going from the Earth Temple to the Pandora Ruins without canon travel
-> Also, the TAS is going from the Pandora Ruins to the Kilroy without canon travel

Now, I am reasonably certain, that the former is most likely slower for a human player. However, moving from the Pandora ruins to Gaias Navel might actually be faster on foot. Just throwing that out there, I didnt do any tests so far.

[quote]repeated weak attacks don't seem to stack properly[/quote]
Oh... That's actually what I meant - I was aware of the other mechanic oô

I actually have some information on the Dread Slimes room - not sure if you know that:
- The Dream Slime room is actually very small, but you can wrap around -> e.g. Move to the right away from the Slime and eventually run into it again towards the right
- Also, this room seems to have an interesting property: The rooms size does not seem to be the same as the "actual room size".. It's a bit hard to explain. But, try wrapping the screen a few times towards one direction and you will notice (unless my memory is horribly messed up once more), that the "pillers/crystals" will be in a different position relative to the slime on each wrap-around. This may help you get into a better position faster.

----------------------------------------------------

Edit: Oh, oh, oh, I actually forgot something
-> The TAS is going from the Earth Temple to the Pandora Ruins without canon travel
-> Also, the TAS is going from the Pandora Ruins to the Kilroy without canon travel

Now, I am reasonably certain, that the former is most likely slower for a human player. However, moving from the Pandora ruins to Gaias Navel might actually be faster on foot. Just throwing that out there, I didnt do any tests so far.

StingerPA

2013-09-25 05:40:17 pm

Quote from Yagamoth:

Edit: Oh, oh, oh, I actually forgot something
-> The TAS is going from the Earth Temple to the Pandora Ruins without canon travel
-> Also, the TAS is going from the Pandora Ruins to the Kilroy without canon travel

Now, I am reasonably certain, that the former is most likely slower for a human player. However, moving from the Pandora ruins to Gaias Navel might actually be faster on foot. Just throwing that out there, I didnt do any tests so far.

I tested both of these options, and I'm pretty convinced that optimally, both options are faster than using the cannon travel. However, you have to consider the fact that using the cannon travel is far more reliable RNG-wise. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to do skip the cannon travel either time without drilling it. I actually found that the first option of going from Gaia's Navel to the Pandora Ruins gains more time over the 2nd option of Ruins to Gaia's Navel. I would predict a gain of 3 seconds with the 1st option and only 1 second or so with the 2nd option. Either way, I won't be doing this anytime soon until I get to the sub 2 hour mark, and even then, it won't be until I'm desperate to gain a single second over the course of the run. Perhaps we could do this at AGDQ since the AI will be less of an issue there.

[quote="Yagamoth"]
Edit: Oh, oh, oh, I actually forgot something
-> The TAS is going from the Earth Temple to the Pandora Ruins without canon travel
-> Also, the TAS is going from the Pandora Ruins to the Kilroy without canon travel

Now, I am reasonably certain, that the former is most likely slower for a human player. However, moving from the Pandora ruins to Gaias Navel might actually be faster on foot. Just throwing that out there, I didnt do any tests so far.[/quote]
I tested both of these options, and I'm pretty convinced that [i]optimally[/i], both options are faster than using the cannon travel.  However, you have to consider the fact that using the cannon travel is far more reliable RNG-wise.  I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to do skip the cannon travel either time without drilling it.  I actually found that the first option of going from Gaia's Navel to the Pandora Ruins gains more time over the 2nd option of Ruins to Gaia's Navel.  I would predict a gain of 3 seconds with the 1st option and only 1 second or so with the 2nd option.  Either way, I won't be doing this anytime soon until I get to the sub 2 hour mark, and even then, it won't be until I'm desperate to gain a single second over the course of the run.  Perhaps we could do this at AGDQ since the AI will be less of an issue there.

Crow!

2013-09-25 07:24:23 pm

What's that gemma?

Quote from Yagamoth:

- The Dream Slime room is actually very small, but you can wrap around -> e.g. Move to the right away from the Slime and eventually run into it again towards the right

On what version of the game is this true? That's certainly not how it is on my cartridge. That red box I drew is an impassable wall, and thank heavens for that, as it seems to be the only dependable way to keep the AI under control.

Yagamoth

2013-09-26 08:05:22 am

INTJ

Comparing the TAS to my run..

Travel #1: From Gaias Navel to Pandora
- Starting point is from the top of the stairs, just before the screen transition to the flower field
- The TAS takes ~36 seconds to travel
- My canon travel takes ~43 seconds
- That's a difference of 7 seconds on TAS level 3 player execution

Travel #2: From Pandora Ruins to Gaias Navel
- Starting point is from entering Pandora
- The TAS takes ~53 seconds to travel
- My run takes ~73 seconds to travel (probably with ~5 seconds of mistakes)
- That's a difference of 20 seconds

I think I can see why you assume the #1 would save more time, since you don't have to descent into the the Gaias Navel using the canon, however it takes quite a while to traverse the section from Pandora to the Canon, which I think accounts for more than the descent.

Obviously we would have to practice running through the field to make it worthwhile. But I think #2 can easily save 10 seconds without too much trouble.

On a sidenote: For a 1c run, this might actually be a decent option to level up another weapon. Not sure.

Quote from Crow!:

Quote from Yagamoth:

- The Dream Slime room is actually very small, but you can wrap around -> e.g. Move to the right away from the Slime and eventually run into it again towards the right

On what version of the game is this true? That's certainly not how it is on my cartridge. That red box I drew is an impassable wall, and thank heavens for that, as it seems to be the only dependable way to keep the AI under control.

Now you mention it, this might be simply me being unaware that I loaded a noclip save with walk through walls activated.. o.o.. Need to test though.

Comparing the TAS to my run..

Travel #1: From Gaias Navel to Pandora
- Starting point is from the top of the stairs, just before the screen transition to the flower field
- The TAS takes ~36 seconds to travel
- My canon travel takes ~43 seconds
- That's a difference of 7 seconds on TAS level 3 player execution

Travel #2: From Pandora Ruins to Gaias Navel
- Starting point is from entering Pandora
- The TAS takes ~53 seconds to travel
- My run takes ~73 seconds to travel (probably with ~5 seconds of mistakes)
- That's a difference of 20 seconds

I think I can see why you assume the #1 would save more time, since you don't have to descent into the the Gaias Navel using the canon, however it takes quite a while to traverse the section from Pandora to the Canon, which I think accounts for more than the descent.

Obviously we would have to practice running through the field to make it worthwhile. But I think #2 can easily save 10 seconds without too much trouble.

On a sidenote: For a 1c run, this might actually be a decent option to level up another weapon. Not sure.

[quote="Crow!"][quote=Yagamoth]- The Dream Slime room is actually very small, but you can wrap around -> e.g. Move to the right away from the Slime and eventually run into it again towards the right[/quote]

On what version of the game is this true?  That's certainly not how it is on my cartridge.  That red box I drew is an impassable wall, and thank heavens for that, as it seems to be the only dependable way to keep the AI under control.[/quote]

Now you mention it, this might be simply me being unaware that I loaded a noclip save with walk through walls activated.. o.o.. Need to test though.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2013-09-26 11:17:02 am

2013-09-26 11:14:54 am

What's that gemma?

1 player versus 3 is a big difference when both enemies and nonlinear terrain are involved. If we're talking 5-10 seconds that the 3-controller TAS saves over cannon travel, I'd be very surprised if the ADD, directionally challenged AI didn't cost a single player far more than this, even with TAS level execution.

Now, if you needed to get weapon experience, that would be another story. Rabites are in the Sprite's 1-hit zone by that last leg of travel. But so long as I'm planning on farming Silktails, that's not needed even in my 1c runs.

Speaking of Silktails, I did some timing, and having 12 MP rather than 11 to fight "Laggy the Snake" (as my roomate calls the Viper) seems to save me about 1.5 minutes, which is certainly more time than I lose killing enough Silktails to get level 13, so the Silktail farming is in my route now. Also, you can consistently get a stack of 3 Silktails a-like so:

- Exit from the Sprite Village.
- Travel the minimum amount south that you have to to get past the tree before you can head west.
- Travel as far west as you can, until the rocks block you.
- Now get around the rocks, and use the girl to whip the 3 silktails.
- If the Siltkails scatter as they go into the hurt animation, push them back together as you spam all 3 characters' attacks.
- Watch the damage amounts, and make sure the sprite gets the last hit. Silktails have 130 HP.

Aside from that, kill Silktails that are along the way. Nemesis Owls work fine too, though it's irritating if they cast Silence.

1 player versus 3 is a big difference when both enemies and nonlinear terrain are involved.  If we're talking 5-10 seconds that the 3-controller TAS saves over cannon travel, I'd be very surprised if the ADD, directionally challenged AI didn't cost a single player far more than this, even with TAS level execution.

Now, if you needed to get weapon experience, that would be another story.  Rabites are in the Sprite's 1-hit zone by that last leg of travel.  But so long as I'm planning on farming Silktails, that's not needed even in my 1c runs.

Speaking of Silktails, I did some timing, and having 12 MP rather than 11 to fight "Laggy the Snake" (as my roomate calls the Viper) seems to save me about 1.5 minutes, which is certainly more time than I lose killing enough Silktails to get level 13, so the Silktail farming is in my route now.  Also, you can consistently get a stack of 3 Silktails a-like so:

- Exit from the Sprite Village.
- Travel the minimum amount south that you have to to get past the tree before you can head west.
- Travel as far west as you can, until the rocks block you.
- Now get around the rocks, and use the girl to whip the 3 silktails.
- If the Siltkails scatter as they go into the hurt animation, push them back together as you spam all 3 characters' attacks.
- Watch the damage amounts, and make sure the sprite gets the last hit.  Silktails have 130 HP.

Aside from that, kill Silktails that are along the way.  Nemesis Owls work fine too, though it's irritating if they cast Silence.

StingerPA

2013-09-26 11:33:55 am

The reason I believe #1 has more potential than #2 is that the movement through areas is easier coming from Gaia's Navel instead of going there from the Ruins. Enemy placement is much kinder, and the dashes are easier to pull off. The TAS isn't that far ahead of what we can physically do with a single controller with #1, even if there's more potential in #2. #2 has all sorts of issues with proper dashes and keeping the AI from getting caught on enemies.

Yagamoth

2013-09-26 12:20:10 pm

INTJ

@Crow: Do you need Sylph later on? I wonder if it's worth it to use one set of Bolts and attempt to hit an overcharge attack after the hurt-stun wears off. Other than that I like the Silktail strategy quite a lot ^^

Also, I hate those owls

@Stinger: You attempt to optimize #1, I attempt to optimize #2 and we'll see who gets more consistent with it? (Or whether it's even worth bothering) Wink

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2013-09-27 08:34:14 am

Crow!: 2013-09-27 08:33:50 am

Crow!: 2013-09-27 08:14:48 am

Crow!: 2013-09-27 08:13:56 am

2013-09-27 08:13:47 am

What's that gemma?

I use Sylphid on the Viper, both minotaurs, and on Dragon Worm. WCGing the minotaurs is dangerous (the slam attack is really costly, time wise) but it's doable, and probably not far off from the spell spam time on average. The dragon worm, on the other hand, is not just why I need Sylphid, but also the biggest reason to pick up Midge Mallet. That guy is even worse than the Snow Dragon in terms of leaving the stage and only rarely coming back to it, and thunderbolt is too fast an animation to inflict a stun lock unless you have the mallet.

If a 1 controller Pureland skip is found, I'm ditching Salamando, Sylphid, Gnome, and the mallet.

Scored a time of ~3:23 last night. Watching/streaming it afterward, I estimate I had about 11 minutes of time lost to major strategic errors. ~3 minutes of that was due to forgetting to reequip the boy after doing an equipment trash - yeah, that happened. http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/c/2997543

I'm beginning to think that I should have the girl switch to a melee weapon during the targeted walk-through-walls attempts.

I use Sylphid on the Viper, both minotaurs, and on Dragon Worm.   WCGing the minotaurs is dangerous (the slam attack is really costly, time wise) but it's doable, and probably not far off from the spell spam time on average.  The dragon worm, on the other hand, is not just why I need Sylphid, but also the biggest reason to pick up Midge Mallet.  That guy is even worse than the Snow Dragon in terms of leaving the stage and only rarely coming back to it, and thunderbolt is too fast an animation to inflict a stun lock unless you have the mallet.

If a 1 controller Pureland skip is found, I'm ditching Salamando, Sylphid, Gnome, and the mallet.

Scored a time of ~3:23 last night.  Watching/streaming it afterward, I estimate I had about 11 minutes of time lost to major strategic errors.  ~3 minutes of that was due to forgetting to reequip the boy after doing an equipment trash - yeah, that happened.   http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/c/2997543

I'm beginning to think that I should have the girl switch to a melee weapon during the targeted walk-through-walls attempts.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-09-27 08:38:29 am

2013-09-27 08:37:27 am

INTJ

Very nice time, that looks promising Smiley

Edit: Oh wow, this is with commentary? Awesome, I'm grabbing something to eat and will watch it ^^

StingerPA

2013-09-27 10:05:53 am

Quote from Yagamoth:

@Stinger: You attempt to optimize #1, I attempt to optimize #2 and we'll see who gets more consistent with it? (Or whether it's even worth bothering) Wink

Sounds like a challenge. Also, congrats on your new PB. I'll need to improve my own run soon if I want to keep the record.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-09-27 12:03:32 pm

Yagamoth: 2013-09-27 11:58:07 am

Yagamoth: 2013-09-27 11:53:10 am

2013-09-27 11:40:51 am

INTJ

Ok, I've now watched a good chunk of your run Crow, and I have only one thing to say - you use a lot of interesting strategies for movement and going through areas. Some looks really nice and I'm probably going to copy them, but a lot of things look improvable by simply copying me or Stinger ^^

Holy Cow, your doppel strats are so Kamikaze..

Also, why do you get Unicorn Helmets in Gold City isntead of Dragon Crowns?

Also, did you mute your microphone towards the end? oô

StingerPA

2013-09-27 12:19:46 pm

Quote from Yagamoth:

Holy Cow, your doppel strats are so Kamikaze..

Also, why do you get Unicorn Helmets in Gold City isntead of Dragon Crowns?

Dopple strats aren't suicidal enough, imo.

I think unicorn helmets are faster because you equip quicker, and you get more equipment to trash in the mana fortress.

Crow!

2013-09-27 02:18:50 pm

What's that gemma?

I muted the microphone because my roomate came in and was very loud. Also, I took a shower.

I take unicorn helms because anyone can equip them, so there's less guesswork involved in making sure equipment screen accesses go correctly. IIRC, Dragon Crowns cannot be equipped by the girl.

----

More importantly, For better or for worse, I decided to go home early today because I felt like I was on a roll from yesterday, and I appear to have been correct. I just finished a run that, by my clock, was 3:18:17. That's now taken the world record, if I'm not mistaken. I'll start streaming it in a bit.

Yagamoth

2013-09-27 05:43:11 pm

INTJ

Congratulations on that time Smiley

I'm reasonably certain everyone can wear Dragons Crowns though ôo

Musashi

2013-09-28 02:15:05 pm

But time flows like a river...

Damn, I will have to come back and beat you now. Sad

Yagamoth

2013-09-28 02:21:20 pm

INTJ

You are always welcome ^^

The new techniques alone should save a good 5 minutes over your current time (ballpark figure)

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2013-09-30 12:31:55 pm

Crow!: 2013-09-30 12:16:17 pm

Crow!: 2013-09-30 12:10:26 pm

2013-09-30 12:05:34 pm

What's that gemma?

I can slightly improve my item/equipment setup:
- I no longer need many curatives in most runs - certainly not in runs that are going to be contenders for setting a record. I can save a few seconds by not buying or multiplying candy, instead operating on Chocolate only.
- I for some reason am going out of my way in menus to trash chain vests instead of spiky suits. I think the original reason was so I could use the girl to equipment trash if I had to, but I never have to. Another few seconds.

If (and this is RNG dependent) either of the Vampire bosses is jumping around when Freeze's animation starts, I can get them to stay still for a bit by barreling and positioning the girl a few tiles below the Vampire, thus inspiring an eating animation like Spikey Tiger. This enables hitting with WCG (subject to an evade roll, of course). This is particularly nice for the Northtown Ruins Vampire because I usually level up to 4 during that fight; some of my Freeze casts are wasted, magic experience-wise. In my current WR run, I manage to get the boy himself to bait a grab attempt as he lands a hit on Buffy.

It is essential that Blue Spike and Spikey Tiger take a hit before I barrel up so that the eating animation is triggered. This (usually) happens automatically against Spikey Tiger when the Sprite stands up after being knocked down by Spikey's initial hit, but Blue Spike is less guaranteed. I may have to start the fight un-barreled until I'm sure I've landed at least one hit.

At Joch's Shadows fight, I still think using the Mallet post-Wall Glitch is notably slower than just charging in with Kakkara equipment, but I think I was previously underestimating the amount of time incurring an additional Flammie call takes.

Barrel expenditures:
Spikey Tiger
Kilroy
Boreal Face
Vampire (sometimes)
Metal Mantis
Blue Spike (sometimes 2x)
Hexas (see below for why)
Buffy (sometimes)

That's up to 9 now. If I use both barrels at Blue Spike and I use one vs Vampire, I'll want to pick up an extra at the Tree Palace Neko.

--------

According to HHS's magic damage formula, ignoring for a bit the part where the spell's base damage and the character's magic stat add together, a level 0 spell that hits an elemental weakness is as good as a level 2 spell that doesn't, with each level up from the elemental weakness being worth 2 levels from the non-weakness.

So, aside from the inferior magic stat of the girl (more on this later) and the completely unknown difference in base spell damage between Lucent Beam and Freeze (I'd like to think the 8 MP Lucent Beam has more base damage than the 2MP Freeze), a level 2 Lucent Beam should be about as strong against Buffy as a level 6 Freeze. My current route casts exclusively level 6 Freeze vs Buffy. A level 3 Lucent Beam should be stronger than Freeze ever gets against both Buffy and the Dark Lich; this should be the case starting my 15th offensive cast of Lucent Beam. For perspective, I generally cast ~20 spells on Buffy (more if I can't land a WCG, less if I do).

I presently cast 20 Freezes against Hexas that are essentially wasted; I enter Hexas at level 4 Freeze, and my first full "clip" of MP (~18 casts) only does ~600 damage. 22 casts of Lucid Barrier (snuck in at less time expenditure per cast than those Freezes by casting them while the sprite is casting other spells, particularly during Pureland) plus the mandatory Lucent Beam at the Grand Palace would make the next cast of Lucent Beam a level 2 spell. I can kill Hexas with WCG (it's faster than Freeze, actually) and Lucid Barrier itself may even be relevant in making that task safer. While we're at it, Lucid Barrier would help while traveling through the Grand Palace, Pureland, and the Mana Fortress.

I am not obligated to kill the girl with the Wall glitch. I can kill the boy instead, costing the boy HP and Agility to earn the girl Wisdom and MP. I usually end the Wall Glitch with the sprite at ~33 MP. This is 8 Lucid Barriers or 4 Lucent Beams per Walnut. The Girl uses Wisdom instead of Intelligence for her spells, and at equal levels the girl has Wisdom equal or very close to the Sprite's Intelligence.

While Freeze is a superior spell to Earth Slide in the abstract, removing Buffy and Dark Lich as Freeze targets makes leveling that spell less attractive than Earth Slide given the higher HP (and higher likelihood of becoming untargetable) of Thunder Gigas compared to Axe Beak. So if the Lucent Beam strategy works out, I think Vampire and Doom Wall will be taking hits from Earth Slide rather than Freeze.

I can slightly improve my item/equipment setup:
- I no longer need many curatives in most runs - certainly not in runs that are going to be contenders for setting a record.  I can save a few seconds by not buying or multiplying candy, instead operating on Chocolate only.
- I for some reason am going out of my way in menus to trash chain vests instead of spiky suits.  I think the original reason was so I could use the girl to equipment trash if I had to, but I never have to.  Another few seconds.

If (and this is RNG dependent) either of the Vampire bosses is jumping around when Freeze's animation starts, I can get them to stay still for a bit by barreling and positioning the girl a few tiles below the Vampire, thus inspiring an eating animation like Spikey Tiger.  This enables hitting with WCG (subject to an evade roll, of course).  This is particularly nice for the Northtown Ruins Vampire because I usually level up to 4 during that fight; some of my Freeze casts are wasted, magic experience-wise.  In my current WR run, I manage to get the boy himself to bait a grab attempt as he lands a hit on Buffy.

It is essential that Blue Spike and Spikey Tiger take a hit before I barrel up so that the eating animation is triggered.  This (usually) happens automatically against Spikey Tiger when the Sprite stands up after being knocked down by Spikey's initial hit, but Blue Spike is less guaranteed.  I may have to start the fight un-barreled until I'm sure I've landed at least one hit.

At Joch's Shadows fight, I still think using the Mallet post-Wall Glitch is notably slower than just charging in with Kakkara equipment, but I think I was previously underestimating the amount of time incurring an additional Flammie call takes.

Barrel expenditures:
Spikey Tiger
Kilroy
Boreal Face
Vampire (sometimes)
Metal Mantis
Blue Spike (sometimes 2x)
Hexas (see below for why)
Buffy (sometimes)

That's up to 9 now.  If I use both barrels at Blue Spike and I use one vs Vampire, I'll want to pick up an extra at the Tree Palace Neko.

--------

According to HHS's magic damage formula, ignoring for a bit the part where the spell's base damage and the character's magic stat add together, a level 0 spell that hits an elemental weakness is as good as a level 2 spell that doesn't, with each level up from the elemental weakness being worth 2 levels from the non-weakness.

So, aside from the inferior magic stat of the girl (more on this later) and the completely unknown difference in base spell damage between Lucent Beam and Freeze (I'd like to think the 8 MP Lucent Beam has more base damage than the 2MP Freeze), a level 2 Lucent Beam should be about as strong against Buffy as a level 6 Freeze.  My current route casts exclusively level 6 Freeze vs Buffy.  A level 3 Lucent Beam should be stronger than Freeze ever gets against both Buffy and the Dark Lich; this should be the case starting my 15th offensive cast of Lucent Beam.  For perspective, I generally cast ~20 spells on Buffy (more if I can't land a WCG, less if I do).

I presently cast 20 Freezes against Hexas that are essentially wasted; I enter Hexas at level 4 Freeze, and my first full "clip" of MP (~18 casts) only does ~600 damage.  22 casts of Lucid Barrier (snuck in at less time expenditure per cast than those Freezes by casting them while the sprite is casting other spells, particularly during Pureland) plus the mandatory Lucent Beam at the Grand Palace would make the next cast of Lucent Beam a level 2 spell.  I can kill Hexas with WCG (it's faster than Freeze, actually) and Lucid Barrier itself may even be relevant in making that task safer.  While we're at it, Lucid Barrier would help while traveling through the Grand Palace, Pureland, and the Mana Fortress.

I am not obligated to kill the girl with the Wall glitch.  I can kill the boy instead, costing the boy HP and Agility to earn the girl Wisdom and MP.  I usually end the Wall Glitch with the sprite at ~33 MP.  This is 8 Lucid Barriers or 4 Lucent Beams per Walnut.  The Girl uses Wisdom instead of Intelligence for her spells, and at equal levels the girl has Wisdom equal or very close to the Sprite's Intelligence.

While Freeze is a superior spell to Earth Slide in the abstract, removing Buffy and Dark Lich as Freeze targets makes leveling that spell less attractive than Earth Slide given the higher HP (and higher likelihood of becoming untargetable) of Thunder Gigas compared to Axe Beak.  So if the Lucent Beam strategy works out, I think Vampire and Doom Wall will be taking hits from Earth Slide rather than Freeze.

Yagamoth

2013-09-30 03:37:21 pm

INTJ

For Vampire / Buffy bait you can also simply use the Sprite. As long as he is casting he is immune to being grabbed

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Lucent Beam has the exact same base power like Freeze or Earthslide have. In general, all the strongest offensive spells of each school have the exact same offensive base power (=Lucent Beam=Freeze=Earth Slide=Thunderbolt=Exploder=Evil Gate). The exception is Dryads Burst, which has 100 as opposed to the standard 61 base power.
So, Earth Slide has the exact same power as Freeze. The original reason why I suggested Freeze for most bosses over Earth Slide is (assuming both normal-effective), that it only costs 2 MP.

Further, even if a level 0 very effective spell is as powerful as a level 2 normal effective spell, unless I made a mistake calculating the damage the variance of the level 0 effective spell is much, much higher.

On another note - did you ever try using Acid Rain against the Mana Beast to lower its defense for the WCG? I have no idea whether that's useful in the end, but it's an interesting thought.

Overall the idea sounds interesting, I'm interested in how this plays out Smiley

For Vampire / Buffy bait you can also simply use the Sprite. As long as he is casting he is immune to being grabbed

----------

Lucent Beam has the exact same base power like Freeze or Earthslide have. In general, all the strongest offensive spells of each school have the exact same offensive base power (=Lucent Beam=Freeze=Earth Slide=Thunderbolt=Exploder=Evil Gate). The exception is Dryads Burst, which has 100 as opposed to the standard 61 base power.
So, Earth Slide has the exact same power as Freeze. The original reason why I suggested Freeze for most bosses over Earth Slide is (assuming both normal-effective), that it only costs 2 MP.

Further, even if a level 0 very effective spell is as powerful as a level 2 normal effective spell, unless I made a mistake calculating the damage the variance of the level 0 effective spell is much, much higher.

On another note - did you ever try using Acid Rain against the Mana Beast to lower its defense for the WCG? I have no idea whether that's useful in the end, but it's an interesting thought.

Overall the idea sounds interesting, I'm interested in how this plays out :)

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2013-10-01 07:35:25 am

2013-09-30 04:23:42 pm

What's that gemma?

Yes, lower level spells tend to be very random damage, and IIRC the random component is all bonus damage, so that's in principle another point in favor of Lucid Beam.

Freeze has one other bonus over Earth Slide - it's more forgiving pre-mallet. The window to bring up the item ring for chaincasting Earth Slide is rather small, and I know I have sometimes lost a lot of damage to the queue from just barely not chaining spells together, particularly in Pureland when I wasn't getting the mallet.

Just tested Acid Rain on the Mana Beast. It makes hits deal ~640 instead of ~520 per hit. That's 16 WCG hits for a win rather than 20. In a 1 controller run, I'm not sold that waiting around for the slow animation to end pays off when the effect wears off at the end of each cycle. In a multiple controller run, the Sprite's Undine is going to be level 0, and that might not give a long enough duration to the debuff to matter.

Some math leads me to the conclusion that the Lucent Beam strategy should save ~2.25 minutes, between saving ~1.5 minutes at Thanatos, 0.75 minutes at Buffy, ~0.75 minutes at Hexas (this is the number I'm least certain of), and costing ~0.75 minutes getting Lumina to level 3 during Pureland and the Great Palace. If the Lucid Barriers pay off in dungeons, and if the Hexas fight goes particularly well, the time saved could be more.

Yes, lower level spells tend to be very random damage, and IIRC the random component is all bonus damage, so that's in principle another point in favor of Lucid Beam.

Freeze has one other bonus over Earth Slide - it's more forgiving pre-mallet.  The window to bring up the item ring for chaincasting Earth Slide is rather small, and I know I have sometimes lost a lot of damage to the queue from just barely not chaining spells together, particularly in Pureland when I wasn't getting the mallet.

Just tested Acid Rain on the Mana Beast.  It makes hits deal ~640 instead of ~520 per hit.  That's 16 WCG hits for a win rather than 20.  In a 1 controller run, I'm not sold that waiting around for the slow animation to end pays off when the effect wears off at the end of each cycle.  In a multiple controller run, the Sprite's Undine is going to be level 0, and that might not give a long enough duration to the debuff to matter.

Some math leads me to the conclusion that the Lucent Beam strategy should save ~2.25 minutes, between saving ~1.5 minutes at Thanatos, 0.75 minutes at Buffy, ~0.75 minutes at Hexas (this is the number I'm least certain of), and costing ~0.75 minutes getting Lumina to level 3 during Pureland and the Great Palace.  If the Lucid Barriers pay off in dungeons, and if the Hexas fight goes particularly well, the time saved could be more.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2013-10-02 08:30:55 am

2013-10-02 08:28:39 am

INTJ

Lucent Barrier - I wonder whether it also blocks some other attacks from Bosses. For example, the Pygmy attack from the Great Viper or Hexas or the Dropdown/Spinball from the Blue Tiger. Maybe even the grab from Buffy? If some of those works, there is a lot of potential.

--> this could be extremely useful for using WCG on previously insecure bosses o_o.. I never thought of that before

My first assumption would be, that Lucid Barrier blocks everything a Barrel blocks minus status conditions. As in - I assume a character with Lucid Barrier would block the Pygmy hit from Hexas, but still gets engulfed in flames and would take damage from regular spells (=spells we can cast ourselves)

----------------------

Also on a sidenote - I think for leveling Lumina from level 0 to 1 you could use screen transitions in a clever way. Cast Lucent Barrier on the Girl herself before every screen transition. This would still slow you down for normal screen transitions, but I imagine there are quite a few places where with proper planning, we can minimize the time loss Smiley

Lucent Barrier - I wonder whether it also blocks some other attacks from Bosses. For example, the Pygmy attack from the Great Viper or Hexas or the Dropdown/Spinball from the Blue Tiger. Maybe even the grab from Buffy? If some of those works, there is a lot of potential.

--> this could be extremely useful for using WCG on previously insecure bosses o_o.. I never thought of that before

My first assumption would be, that Lucid Barrier blocks everything a Barrel blocks minus status conditions. As in - I assume a character with Lucid Barrier would block the Pygmy hit from Hexas, but still gets engulfed in flames and would take damage from regular spells (=spells we can cast ourselves)

----------------------

Also on a sidenote - I think for leveling Lumina from level 0 to 1 you could use screen transitions in a clever way. Cast Lucent Barrier on the Girl herself before every screen transition. This would still slow you down for normal screen transitions, but I imagine there are quite a few places where with proper planning, we can minimize the time loss :)