Secret of Evermore (SNES)

DLDarklink

Edit history:

DLDarklink: 2014-02-24 06:35:54 pm

DLDarklink: 2014-02-24 06:06:56 pm

DLDarklink: 2014-02-24 06:05:53 pm

DLDarklink: 2014-02-24 05:44:01 pm

DLDarklink: 2014-02-24 05:14:43 pm

DLDarklink: 2014-02-24 05:12:27 pm

2014-02-24 04:40:20 pm

...

Current status:

went through act 3, saved at Tinker, forgot the Knight Basher, cast petal and enter jails with dog and did everything in the jails slowly: no crash
did all the same stuff, WITH Knight Basher: still no crash
same stuff, without save and with petal and basher: no crash
same stuff, no save, no petal: no crash Huh?

**** still taking things slowly **** (waiting for the weird beeping noises to fade away)

I still enter with the dog and keep it slow, next attempt will be fast and still entering with the dog

^

still no crash

next: do everything in the same way, enter with the boy instead

it crashed

TheAngryPanda

2014-02-24 05:42:44 pm

Speed > Safety

Thanks for taking the time to test things slowly. Sorry if it drives you insane in a couple hours, lol. Smiley

AsFarAsIGet

2014-02-24 08:38:24 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

So it really would be amazing if the crash is dependant on which char enters the room. If entering with the dog NEVER crashes the game it would be so goooooood. Smiley

TheAngryPanda

2014-02-24 09:41:29 pm

Speed > Safety

yeah... it really just needs more full attempt + full speed testing.

Darklink starts from a save in Act 2 so he can re-acquire Atlas Glitch (non-invulnerability version). Perhaps invulnerability has something to do with it? I'd doubt it though.

rayvex

2014-02-24 11:31:04 pm

hi

Quote from AsFarAsIGet:

So it really would be amazing if the crash is dependant on which char enters the room. If entering with the dog NEVER crashes the game it would be so goooooood. Smiley

Meta tried entering the dungeon with the dog + also casted petal before doing so in bis run yesterday, still crashed

TheAngryPanda

2014-02-25 12:23:26 am

Speed > Safety

Debating over what does and doesn't affect the lock up is entirely pointless at the moment. Meta's could have crashed from various things, possibly even things we have no idea even matter. What's important is that we continue building a sample size from testing that is VERY specific in what happens, how it happens, and what was done to reach that point.

It's very possible that the order in which you do things could potentially affect the outcome, or the character you leave with, what about the character that steps on X or Y button to open the gates? There's TONS of "what if..." involved, most of which we'll never fully figure out or know if they matter or not because nobody actively involved in the game can dig through the data as it happens. And I'm not sure what a person that could do that needs from us to accomplish it.

What I'm doing is getting a secondary TAS up to that point for frame-by-frame testing to see if it's something like a pattern and on certain frames it will crash, others it won't, perhaps tied to musical cues? Dunno, but that's about as far as I can go with it on my end. Once the TAS has it in a non-crashing and crashing state (2 versions), perhaps we can find differences within them.

Debating over what does and doesn't affect the lock up is entirely pointless at the moment. Meta's could have crashed from various things, possibly even things we have no idea even matter. What's important is that we continue building a sample size from testing that is VERY specific in what happens, how it happens, and what was done to reach that point.

It's very possible that the order in which you do things could potentially affect the outcome, or the character you leave with, what about the character that steps on X or Y button to open the gates? There's TONS of "what if..." involved, most of which we'll never fully figure out or know if they matter or not because nobody actively involved in the game can dig through the data as it happens. And I'm not sure what a person that could do that needs from us to accomplish it.

What I'm doing is getting a secondary TAS up to that point for frame-by-frame testing to see if it's something like a pattern and on certain frames it will crash, others it won't, perhaps tied to musical cues? Dunno, but that's about as far as I can go with it on my end. Once the TAS has it in a non-crashing and crashing state (2 versions), perhaps we can find differences within them.

DLDarklink

2014-02-25 01:05:24 am

...

tonight i'll start a new game, fresh from the start and try it out again Smiley

i'll do the same stuff again, with invul.

DLDarklink

2014-02-25 06:09:52 pm

...

i did it

started from a clean file, played to the end while skipping Verminator (on console)

TheAngryPanda

2014-02-25 06:23:17 pm

Speed > Safety

Please tell me you're going to highlight it and post the link here. <3

DLDarklink

Edit history:

DLDarklink: 2014-02-25 06:41:01 pm

DLDarklink: 2014-02-25 06:37:02 pm

2014-02-25 06:33:18 pm

...

http://www.twitch.tv/dldarklink/c/3788415

very slow run, i didn't wan't to F things up (falling in pits, softlocking @ aquagoth etc.)

edit:

I also have a theory about this Cheesy

The glitchy sounds are random, they seem to sound a bit different everytime. Maybe it crashes when specific sounds are stacked Huh?

(still a theory ^^, don't take my word from it)

edit 2: If you want me to do it different, I can do it tomorrow Smiley

thursday will be a problem, ISP network maintenance....

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-25 07:06:08 pm

2014-02-25 07:02:07 pm

Speed > Safety

I'll have to watch the whole thing before I can really say much about it, but hopefully I can do that tonight or tomorrow. If not, it'll be later this week, as I'm pretty busy. Sad

You could just run it as fast as you want, however you want, or whatever way you want as well, but try and be thorough with things you do and don't change too much at once. But if something unique happens, be sure to highlight it or document how you got to that result as best as possible. It'll go a long way in determining proper routing/prevention hopefully. The TAS is nearing Aquagoth on the VermSkip route, I'm hoping to at least get Aqua done and over with tonight so I can just power through Act 3 up to the skip location before late Tuesday since I likely won't work on it again until Thursday night.

I do think specific sounds cause specific things, especially after seeing Crawek's most recent broadcast of SoE testing. He tried attacking (which has the normal sound attached) to cancel out a glitchy sound, and it actually seemed to work on some scenarios, however, not on all of them. Sad

Still, at least we're getting lots of attention on the subject, way more than previously was attributed to it.

I'll have to watch the whole thing before I can really say much about it, but hopefully I can do that tonight or tomorrow. If not, it'll be later this week, as I'm pretty busy. :(

You could just run it as fast as you want, however you want, or whatever way you want as well, but try and be thorough with things you do and don't change too much at once. But if something unique happens, be sure to highlight it or document how you got to that result as best as possible. It'll go a long way in determining proper routing/prevention hopefully. The TAS is nearing Aquagoth on the VermSkip route, I'm hoping to at least get Aqua done and over with tonight so I can just power through Act 3 up to the skip location before late Tuesday since I likely won't work on it again until Thursday night.

I do think specific sounds cause specific things, especially after seeing Crawek's most recent broadcast of SoE testing. He tried attacking (which has the normal sound attached) to cancel out a glitchy sound, and it actually seemed to work on some scenarios, however, not on all of them. :( Still, at least we're getting lots of attention on the subject, way more than previously was attributed to it.

DLDarklink

2014-02-26 03:18:00 am

...

I'll try to do some more runs tonight, I need to derust anyway Wink

Maybe get a PB or something Tongue

DLDarklink

Edit history:

DLDarklink: 2014-02-26 06:09:04 pm

2014-02-26 06:04:11 pm

...

ISP maintenance was tonight >.<

edit: i've just seen Meta's attempt to skip Verm (from 2 days ago), it's strange that his sound immediatly drops :S not even the weird glitchy ones

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2014-02-27 05:11:56 pm

GreenAmbler: 2014-02-27 05:15:32 am

2014-02-26 09:20:54 pm

Played around with the dungeon a bit. Only able to play on emulator (snes9x 1.53) which still can crash, not sure if it crashes less often than on console or if that if it invalidates my findings. I just used a save state before entering the dungeon (skipping verm) and tried various things. Expect lots of speculation

The only way I could get the game to crash was from glitchy sound effects, specifically from the raptor either attacking or get attacked. The sound from the gates opening sometimes glitches, usually into a relatively quiet continuously looping, high pitch ringing or alternatively a buzzing sound or sometimes "windy" sound. This makes the music a small bit quieter. The gate sounds are usually resolved after other sounds are made, another gate sound or enemy sound usually works. The spiders' and robot's sounds don't really glitch I don't think. The raptor sounds however sound like they are in slow motion, they have very chaotic and drawn out sounds that go away over time. But they last 5-10 seconds or so, and each one that is playing makes the music much quieter, until enough stack and one sound effect will seem to override the music completely, looping continuously and causing the game to crash once you exit the dungeon. Another strange thing is that the enemies' AI seems to become completely passive at certain times, perhaps an indicator the game cannot even handle what's going on enough to properly perform AI actions.

The most curious thing is that Meta had a complete sound failure after the first gate sound immediately after entering the dungeon. So if my hypothesis is correct about sound effects (or at least triggered/queued actions) stacking and causing the crash, perhaps the petals aren't a good idea, since they definitely are not a true solution and probably just give the game more to deal with. I think part of the reason it crashed was the little chirp sound effect of the action%bar filling back up to 100%, as well as the initial glitchy gate sound, and maybe some tail end of the petal. Action%bar filling to 100% at the same-ish time as the initial gate sound makes the gate sound sometimes glitch/loop (as does opening the menu upon entering), so I imagine adding more things to the process would potentially cause a crash.

I think it might help to just walk in the dungeon with the action bar already at 100%, dog or otherwise. Other than that, skip the petals, kill enemies (especially raptors) before they can attack, and make sure it's a lethal hit. If you get a horrible raptor sound going, hang out in your menu ring until it goes away. For some reason, your and your dog's attacks as well as certain other things like picking up remains does not ever seem to have glitched sound.

Played around with the dungeon a bit. Only able to play on emulator (snes9x 1.53) which still can crash, not sure if it crashes less often than on console or if that if it invalidates my findings. I just used a save state before entering the dungeon (skipping verm) and tried various things. Expect lots of speculation

The only way I could get the game to crash was from glitchy sound effects, specifically from the raptor either attacking or get attacked. The sound from the gates opening sometimes glitches, usually into a relatively quiet continuously looping, high pitch ringing or alternatively a buzzing sound or sometimes "windy" sound. This makes the music a small bit quieter. The gate sounds are usually resolved after other sounds are made, another gate sound or enemy sound usually works. The spiders' and robot's sounds don't really glitch I don't think. The raptor sounds however sound like they are in slow motion, they have very chaotic and drawn out sounds that go away over time. But they last 5-10 seconds or so, and each one that is playing makes the music much quieter, until enough stack and one sound effect will seem to override the music completely, looping continuously and causing the game to crash once you exit the dungeon. Another strange thing is that the enemies' AI seems to become completely passive at certain times, perhaps an indicator the game cannot even handle what's going on enough to properly perform AI actions.

The most curious thing is that Meta had a complete sound failure after the first gate sound immediately after entering the dungeon. So if my hypothesis is correct about sound effects (or at least triggered/queued actions) stacking and causing the crash, perhaps the petals aren't a good idea, since they definitely are not a true solution and probably just give the game more to deal with. I think part of the reason it crashed was the little chirp sound effect of the action%bar filling back up to 100%, as well as the initial glitchy gate sound, and maybe some tail end of the petal. Action%bar filling to 100% at the same-ish time as the initial gate sound makes the gate sound sometimes glitch/loop (as does opening the menu upon entering), so I imagine adding more things to the process would potentially cause a crash.

I think it might help to just walk in the dungeon with the action bar already at 100%, dog or otherwise. Other than that, skip the petals, kill enemies (especially raptors) before they can attack, and make sure it's a lethal hit. If you get a horrible raptor sound going, hang out in your menu ring until it goes away. For some reason, your and your dog's attacks as well as certain other things like picking up remains does not ever seem to have glitched sound.

CrAwEk

2014-02-27 04:05:30 am

it is completely different on bsnes, you are obliged to produce a sound if you want the game does not crash.
http://www.twitch.tv/crawek/b/506275118

Skarsnik

Edit history:

Skarsnik: 2014-02-27 10:36:32 am

2014-02-27 10:34:08 am

With what emulator did you try? If I get no music in the jail the game crash. If I get like the music castle generally he doesn't crash (on console) bsnes and snes9x act very differently on this shit Smiley

snes 1.51 and 1.53 act differently too x)

Vultuz

2014-02-27 12:28:51 pm

So is Verminator kinda "allowed" now? I just checked Darklinks run, he just did the same i did about a year ago. The thing with that was just (atleast what i heard): it works on emulator, not on console.

DLDarklink

2014-02-27 12:40:33 pm

...

I wonder, would it matter which type of SNES is used?

DLDarklink

2014-02-27 03:26:27 pm

...

PB

1:22:06 ^^

this includes Verm Skip, heavy offstream swearing, Sterling BS, failed Blimp Skip (again)

MetaSigma

2014-02-27 04:03:10 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Verm Skip is not allowed as of right now. At least as far as WRs are concerned. More testing will be done, but as it stands it's not allowed

TheAngryPanda

2014-02-27 04:06:13 pm

Speed > Safety

I disagree, I think it should be allowed and used. Now that it's been proven (by Darklink on multiple occasions) there's literally no reason not to allow it.

MetaSigma

Edit history:

MetaSigma: 2014-02-27 04:09:10 pm

2014-02-27 04:08:51 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Then we'll agree to disagree. Only on the basis this is not RNG based upon the games programming but RNG based upon if the game decides to just randomly crash. It's one thing if doing part of the actual game (Like it's a known crash within the game like IWBTB) but a forced glitch with a random crash? I can't agree to that.

Skarsnik

2014-02-27 04:14:01 pm

The real question is : How to handle emulator for this. Snes9x 1.51 has no issue with this skip, the 1.53 crash sometime (that probably confirm that it can be a audio issue, because basicly 1.53 has a better audio emulation), bsnes react differently.

Probably forbit snes9x 1.51 for this skip? but you have to be crazy to play with 1.51, the audio of SoE is all fuck up for me xD

TheAngryPanda

2014-02-27 04:20:28 pm

Speed > Safety

So your stance on this is that if a player were to use Verm Skip on a console attempt, he wouldn't have WR? How does that even make sense? We're going to punish someone for getting lucky? There are TONS of games with run-ending things in them that save much more than Verm Skip ever will, INCLUDING this game. I fail to see any reasoning behind not allowing it other than you just not wanting to do it, which if that's the case, then just don't do it. I can't agree to not rewarding risky play in this game, or any other game for that matter.

As for emulators, I'm not really too concerned about them honestly, go with what's most accurate I guess.

I think Bsnes' problem is somewhat of an oddity, but we've even seen it work on there before, so it could still be allowed. As for the Snes9x versions, what's the most accurate? And how accurate is it in comparison to Bsnes/Lsnes? These are the questions we'd be looking at to determine what you're asking.

MetaSigma

Edit history:

MetaSigma: 2014-02-27 04:29:48 pm

MetaSigma: 2014-02-27 04:29:37 pm

MetaSigma: 2014-02-27 04:29:27 pm

2014-02-27 04:24:32 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

My stance is that they're still within the base confines of the programming. Run-killer is not the issue, the issue is a complete crash of a game based upon a hope that we get a glitch. It's not risk/reward it's risk/hope. It's one thing if the player screws it up, but to punish a player because the game itself just dumps on itself? Also don't sit there and tell me what YOU THINK is my reasoning behind this. I understand where your stance is coming from and I just disagree with it is all.

Also let me point out that if I'm in the minority and it's accepted as fine to use by a majority of the Evermore runners then I'll just adapt to it. I am allowed to have a personal opinion of it am I not? This is not going to turn into another Meta/Panda piss match between us.