Secret of Evermore (SNES)

2014-02-22 05:07:20 pm

Speed > Safety

Yeah, I'm actually optimistic about time gains because in the fact of not having to 8x, that's also less ingredients needed for things, which potentially shoves Sting ahead of Crush for Any% (very slightly...) due to Horace Skip. That being said, nobody will likely run a route that insane for a while, especially for only ~4-5s gain over the Crush route. Anyways... Has anyone messed around with this on a console yet? I might see if Lamb would like to help us out with testing on an actual console later tonight if he's around, or Meta if he's not busy. Darklink could probably help too if he's not busy with IRL stuff. Smiley

I'd really like to either definitively rule this out and prove that it's only possible to do on emulator if we cannot get it working after maybe a week or so. Even if it works, and doesn't save time, at least we know for sure how and why it works how it does and potentially could apply that to others things in the future.

Aquagoth dies tonight on the TAS. Smiley

DLDarklink

2014-02-22 07:27:22 pm

...

if anyone can point out what to do exactly, i'll try to help (starting tomorrow) Cheesy

2014-02-23 06:17:50 am

Speed > Safety

It's something like Wings backwards through Dark Forest after entering sewers once from the area with the rocks that lead to gomi's tower (Sterling). This allows you to skip Verm on an emulator for the most part, but we've always locked up on console and as such we banned it from being utilized for fairness reasons.

What we're looking for:

-Any ways you can think of to escape the prison after entering it then re-entering it to reset the music.
-Any previous locations leading up to this that will prevent the lock from happening.
-Anything you might think will work because we're probably collectively out of ideas.
-etc...

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2014-02-23 07:34:47 am

GreenAmbler: 2014-02-23 07:26:06 am

2014-02-23 06:29:33 am

Confirming that visiting Ivory Tower jail after banquet cutscene does not negate the audio glitches when entering Ebon Keep jail from castle door.

You can leave the Ebon Keep jail from either the sewers cell or the one that leads to town. Can someone confirm where the game actually freezes up? My understanding is that its once you enter the sewers. I don't see any particular reason why exiting the jail via the town entrance would have different results than the sewer but worth a shot. Strange that the emulator freezes on Mad Monk audio glitch but not this one. I'd really like to see what happens on console so I could have a better idea what we're actually dealing with.

Here's the alternate but most likely slower Verm Skip (also console safe) I previously posted:
Enter Ebon Keep Sewers, Wings x2 back thru forest, take Chessboard entrance to Ebon Keep, Get Knight Basher after cutscenes, run back thru chessboard and forest and enter Gomi's Tower. Basically trading going through sewers twice, jail twice, town, and Verm fight for wingsing twice, chessboard parts twice, and entire forest again. It is highly dependent on getting through the chessboard part smoothly 2 extra times so my testing isn't very exact due to my sloppy execution. At the time I also was trying to take in consideration routing difference but for the TAS that doesn't matter. I'll check again and try to get some more accurate results

Also, after hearing Meta's explanation of what happens during the original Verm Skip, I'm pretty skeptical there's a consistent way to do it, since it freezes during the mandatory battling. The sound glitches seem to mostly be a result of in game sound affects after one unresolved one is present, and it seems kinda random whether a sound will glitch. Killing enemies before they attack seems to help diminish the chance of glitching, but there still is usually at least some sound glitching and I'm not sure how much is too much for the game. Either way, it still seems pretty sketchy to be doing for a run.

Confirming that visiting Ivory Tower jail after banquet cutscene does not negate the audio glitches when entering Ebon Keep jail from castle door.

You can leave the Ebon Keep jail from either the sewers cell or the one that leads to town. Can someone confirm where the game actually freezes up? My understanding is that its once you enter the sewers. I don't see any particular reason why exiting the jail via the town entrance would have different results than the sewer but worth a shot. Strange that the emulator freezes on Mad Monk audio glitch but not this one. I'd really like to see what happens on console so I could have a better idea what we're actually dealing with.

Here's the alternate but most likely slower Verm Skip (also console safe) I previously posted:
Enter Ebon Keep Sewers, Wings x2 back thru forest, take Chessboard entrance to Ebon Keep, Get Knight Basher after cutscenes, run back thru chessboard and forest and enter Gomi's Tower. Basically trading going through sewers twice, jail twice, town, and Verm fight for wingsing twice, chessboard parts twice, and entire forest again. It is highly dependent on getting through the chessboard part smoothly 2 extra times so my testing isn't very exact due to my sloppy execution. At the time I also was trying to take in consideration routing difference but for the TAS that doesn't matter. I'll check again and try to get some more accurate results

Also, after hearing Meta's explanation of what happens during the original Verm Skip, I'm pretty skeptical there's a consistent way to do it, since it freezes during the mandatory battling. The sound glitches seem to mostly be a result of in game sound affects after one unresolved one is present, and it seems kinda random whether a sound will glitch. Killing enemies before they attack seems to help diminish the chance of glitching, but there still is usually at least some sound glitching and I'm not sure how much is too much for the game. Either way, it still seems pretty sketchy to be doing for a run.

assassin17

2014-02-23 07:30:56 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

the way i encountered the bug back in 1995 involved something like: reaching Ebon Keep through the Dark Forest, leaving (probably due to Verminator kicking my ass) and walking back to Ivor Tower through the forest, heading east to the Chessboard to find the east drawbridge had been lowered, and crossing it into Ebon Keep castle. the game froze when i tried to enter Verminator's room from the north, which i attributed to the obstructing pile of boxes still being there.

now, this manual hoofing has no place in a speedrun.. and it sounds like you've better narrowed down the trigger of the drawbridge lowering ("after entering sewers once from the area with the rocks that lead to gomi's tower "). but figured i'd relay my experience anyway.

i wonder what happens if you exit the Ebon Keep dungeon into town, walk north to Verminator's room the proper way, leave it before fighting (but maybe go down the stairs in there first), then backtrack to the house and into the dungeon. it's not economical time-wise; this is purely for diagnostic purposes.

the way i encountered the bug back in 1995 involved something like: reaching Ebon Keep through the Dark Forest, leaving (probably due to Verminator kicking my ass) and walking back to Ivor Tower through the forest, heading east to the Chessboard to find the east drawbridge had been lowered, and crossing it into Ebon Keep castle.  the game froze when i tried to enter Verminator's room from the north, which i attributed to the obstructing pile of boxes still being there.

now, this manual hoofing has no place in a speedrun.. and it sounds like you've better narrowed down the trigger of the drawbridge lowering ("after entering sewers once from the area with the rocks that lead to gomi's tower ").  but figured i'd relay my experience anyway.

i wonder what happens if you exit the Ebon Keep dungeon into town, walk north to Verminator's room the proper way, leave it before fighting (but maybe go down the stairs in there first), then backtrack to the house and into the dungeon.  it's not economical time-wise; this is purely for diagnostic purposes.

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-23 08:47:56 am

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-23 08:46:05 am

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-23 08:45:38 am

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-23 08:44:40 am

2014-02-23 07:44:28 am

Speed > Safety

I wonder if any Call Bead effects would do anything... like how shield can take you to the save screen during Mungola. I wonder if anything along that line could override the glitchy sound or remove any issues before a crash was set in motion. Perhaps Heat Waving the enemies so they simply can't attack. I don't recall if we tested anything like this previously, however, I do think it would probably significantly reduce the importance of skipping Verminator.

It would still be very nice to have a visual reference as to what exactly happens under various conditions ON a console, since apparently the people that use emulators can't obtain the same results. At least regarding the Verm Skip, I think the longer one is probably perfectly fine on console. I mean we already know it locks up, but we don't know specifically when, what might be the ACTUAL trigger, or anything really... other than it just locks up. It's obviously not the same as the Ruins soft lock, because the Ruins continues to run the game, it just never finishes a transition period between screens. It'd be quite useful to know for sure that the glitch is triggered upon entering the map, and not something within the map itself.

Either way, I don't think I'm going to have either version of the Verm Skip in the TAS unless the long version is proven to be a fair amount quicker*. Mostly because I'd really like to get to Carl and try to find some setups for RTA people can use so we stop having completely awful boss rush fights. I also am kind of super hyped up for doing the 100% TAS, because of how much optimization and technical stuff is within it, can't wait to start routing/testing it out.

*While the short version would technically work in the TAS, I'm choosing to avoid it because it locks up on console. There is very little anyone can say to change this.

I wonder if any Call Bead effects would do anything... like how shield can take you to the save screen during Mungola. I wonder if anything along that line could override the glitchy sound or remove any issues before a crash was set in motion. Perhaps Heat Waving the enemies so they simply can't attack. I don't recall if we tested anything like this previously, however, I do think it would probably significantly reduce the importance of skipping Verminator.

It would still be very nice to have a visual reference as to what exactly happens under various conditions ON a console, since apparently the people that use emulators can't obtain the same results. At least regarding the Verm Skip, I think the longer one is probably perfectly fine on console. I mean we already know it locks up, but we don't know specifically when, what might be the ACTUAL trigger, or anything really... other than it just locks up. It's obviously not the same as the Ruins soft lock, because the Ruins continues to run the game, it just never finishes a transition period between screens. It'd be quite useful to know for sure that the glitch is triggered upon entering the map, and not something within the map itself.

Either way, I don't think I'm going to have either version of the Verm Skip in the TAS unless the long version is proven to be a fair amount quicker*. Mostly because I'd really like to get to Carl and try to find some setups for RTA people can use so we stop having completely awful boss rush fights. I also am kind of super hyped up for doing the 100% TAS, because of how much optimization and technical stuff is within it, can't wait to start routing/testing it out.

*While the short version would technically work in the TAS, I'm choosing to avoid it because it locks up on console. There is very little anyone can say to change this.

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2014-02-23 03:42:45 pm

GreenAmbler: 2014-02-23 03:41:04 pm

2014-02-23 09:23:17 am

Is there a highlight of the Mungola thing? That's pretty interesting. I assume it's been looked into already?

I don't think bosses can be skipped simply by triggering the fight and leaving, the trigger for the game to think the boss was beaten is usually during the victory pose after the battle I believe, although I do remember being able to leave Gomi's Tower after triggering the Sterling fight and coming back to the top of the tower with no Sterling/Gomi (also no way to progress). I just re-tried skipping Verm by triggering a screen transition immediately before and after triggering the fight with no success.

I just confirmed you could also skip Verm by entering the Ebon Keep dungeon like normal and then leaving back through sewers, wingsing through forest, chessboard, get Axe and leave through dungeon again like normal. This is definitely a lot of detouring for the benefit of skipping one boss, but you also save time in act 2 routing from less ingredient/alchemy leveling since you just have to worry about Aqua (maybe better for sting, or just cast some level 1 crush and call beads on Aqua?).

Just out of curiosity I will look into these time differences in detail, starting from entering the Sewers in Ebon Keep for the first time. Took most of these times from Crawek's WR and the rest are based on what a similar level of execution would look like.

Route 1: Current RTA

EK Sewers: 45 seconds
Jail fight: 25 seconds
Running thru town and fighting Verm: about 90 seconds
(necessary cutscenes)
Backtrack thru dungeon/sewers to rocks at Gomi's Tower: 30 seconds
Total: 190 seconds. Also take into consideration that this route involves setup for Verm, which would add time due to ingredient purchasing and crush leveling

Route 2: No Dungeon Verm skip

Wingsx2 thru forest from sewers entrance: 20 seconds (plus time getting 2 wings)
Run thru underground chessboard, chessboard, 2 EK screens before reaching Tinker cutscene: ~30 seconds TAS I'm guessing, hard to say with Sniffs, probably around upper 30s with Invul or low 40's without
(necessary cutscenes)
Backtrack thru 2 EK screens, chessboard, underground chessboard: ~30 seconds TAS as before
Forest again: 145 seconds
Total time: 225 seconds (needs 2 extra Wings but no Verm setup)

Route 3: Verm skip w/ Dungeon

EK Sewers: 45 seconds
Jail fight: 25 seconds
Backtrack Sewers: 50 seconds
Wingsx2 thru forest from sewers entrance: 20 seconds (plus time getting 2 wings)
Run thru underground chessboard, chessboard, 2 EK screens before reaching Tinker cutscene: ~30 seconds TAS
(necessary cutscenes)
Backtrack thru dungeon/sewers to rocks at Gomi's Tower: 30 seconds
Total: ~~160~~ 200 seconds (needs 2 extra Wings but no Verm setup

So if I'm not missing anything, Route 3 should be the fastest on TAS, and probably even RTA, although it would probably be 20-25 seconds longer depending on how smoothly the Chessboard parts go. Although it should also be faster because you could reroute act 2 to save some time that we normally spend on alchemy stuff. I'm getting to the point where I've been thinking way too much so I'll look over my logic later and see if I'm overlooking anything

Is there a highlight of the Mungola thing? That's pretty interesting. I assume it's been looked into already?

I don't think bosses can be skipped simply by triggering the fight and leaving, the trigger for the game to think the boss was beaten is usually during the victory pose after the battle I believe, although I do remember being able to leave Gomi's Tower after triggering the Sterling fight and coming back to the top of the tower with no Sterling/Gomi (also no way to progress). I just re-tried skipping Verm by triggering a screen transition immediately before and after triggering the fight with no success.

I just confirmed you could also skip Verm by entering the Ebon Keep dungeon like normal and then leaving back through sewers, wingsing through forest, chessboard, get Axe and leave through dungeon again like normal. This is definitely a lot of detouring for the benefit of skipping one boss, but you also save time in act 2 routing from less ingredient/alchemy leveling since you just have to worry about Aqua (maybe better for sting, or just cast some level 1 crush and call beads on Aqua?).

Just out of curiosity I will look into these time differences in detail, starting from entering the Sewers in Ebon Keep for the first time. Took most of these times from Crawek's WR and the rest are based on what a similar level of execution would look like.

Route 1: Current RTA

EK Sewers: 45 seconds
Jail fight: 25 seconds
Running thru town and fighting Verm: about 90 seconds
(necessary cutscenes)
Backtrack thru dungeon/sewers to rocks at Gomi's Tower: 30 seconds
Total: 190 seconds. Also take into consideration that this route involves setup for Verm, which would add time due to ingredient purchasing and crush leveling

Route 2: No Dungeon Verm skip

Wingsx2 thru forest from sewers entrance: 20 seconds (plus time getting 2 wings)
Run thru underground chessboard, chessboard, 2 EK screens before reaching Tinker cutscene: ~30 seconds TAS I'm guessing, hard to say with Sniffs, probably around upper 30s with Invul or low 40's without
(necessary cutscenes)
Backtrack thru 2 EK screens, chessboard, underground chessboard: ~30 seconds TAS as before
Forest again: 145 seconds
Total time: 225 seconds (needs 2 extra Wings but no Verm setup)

Route 3: Verm skip w/ Dungeon

EK Sewers: 45 seconds
Jail fight: 25 seconds
Backtrack Sewers: 50 seconds
Wingsx2 thru forest from sewers entrance: 20 seconds (plus time getting 2 wings)
Run thru underground chessboard, chessboard, 2 EK screens before reaching Tinker cutscene: ~30 seconds TAS
(necessary cutscenes)
Backtrack thru dungeon/sewers to rocks at Gomi's Tower: 30 seconds
Total: [s]160[/s] 200 seconds (needs 2 extra Wings but no Verm setup

So if I'm not missing anything, Route 3 should be the fastest on TAS, and probably even RTA, although it would probably be 20-25 seconds longer depending on how smoothly the Chessboard parts go. Although it should also be faster because you could reroute act 2 to save some time that we normally spend on alchemy stuff. I'm getting to the point where I've been thinking way too much so I'll look over my logic later and see if I'm overlooking anything

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-23 10:13:24 am

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-23 10:12:58 am

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-23 09:43:54 am

2014-02-23 09:41:18 am

Speed > Safety

I don't include things that don't work on console like they do on emulator. Until I get confirmation that it absolutely works and doesn't work the same for both emulator and console, it won't even be considered for the TAS. But yeah, it's definitely the shortest of all of them, which is why I'd like to get it as close to completely figured out as possible.

I kind of interested in Route 2 though. Regarding ingredients/leveling for Verm, it actually isn't for Verm at all, just Aquagoth. Verm's magical resistance is pretty pathetic and you can stomp him out with level 2 stuff and CB's pretty easily. It would still save time from less menu operations of course, which is fairly significant. *it's not 35s worth of course, but it's interesting in how the route works from an events triggered point of view* *See below*

Also, I'd like to point out something Crawek's been doing in his runs. He uses Wings when entering the underground portion of the chessboard maze that leads to Dark Forest, you all should be doing that, it will save you time.

[s]I don't include things that don't work on console like they do on emulator. Until I get confirmation that it absolutely works and doesn't work the same for both emulator and console, it won't even be considered for the TAS. But yeah, it's definitely the shortest of all of them, which is why I'd like to get it as close to completely figured out as possible.

I kind of interested in Route 2 though. Regarding ingredients/leveling for Verm, it actually isn't for Verm at all, just Aquagoth. Verm's magical resistance is pretty pathetic and you can stomp him out with level 2 stuff and CB's pretty easily. It would still save time from less menu operations of course, which is fairly significant. *it's not 35s worth of course, but it's interesting in how the route works from an events triggered point of view*[/s] *See below*

Also, I'd like to point out something Crawek's been doing in his runs. He uses Wings when entering the underground portion of the chessboard maze that leads to Dark Forest, you all should be doing that, it will save you time.

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2014-02-23 09:51:37 am

GreenAmbler: 2014-02-23 09:47:51 am

2014-02-23 09:47:02 am

Route 3 has no audio glitches, and I have no reason to believe it wouldn't work for console. The shortest version originally discussed (which would be about 2 minutes faster) involved leaving immediately after entering sewers, and entering the dungeon for the first time after getting the Knight Basher. I have confirmed that the glitch happens from entering the dungeon for the first time from anything but the sewers, so we enter the EK dungeon like normal route so we have a proper first visit and can reenter after Knight Basher without any glitches.

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-23 10:21:18 am

2014-02-23 10:12:22 am

Speed > Safety

Ohhhhh, i thought you were talking about the one that screws everything up, my mistake. Hrmm, might have to go back to market for the wings... annoying.

~~Horace's Escape skill functions the exact same as Wings, correct? Might have to look into using this when routing around the 3rd route.~~ Not a Horace ability, lol.

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2014-02-23 03:45:19 pm

GreenAmbler: 2014-02-23 10:18:42 am

2014-02-23 10:18:30 am

I don't suppose you could do some super fancy drop pickup using the 5 frame window after a screen transition to not lose any time?

Escape is an alchemy spell learned from Madronious so not an option.

This should be a decent bit faster RTA right? It would involve rerouting in Act 2 as well so hard to say how much time would be saved, but I feel like it'll be around ~~30 seconds~~ if we can skip leveling crush right? (can't math, timed saved is questionable)

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-23 10:47:28 am

2014-02-23 10:46:47 am

Speed > Safety

So Route 3 is:

(starting from Dark Forest entrance like in a normal attempt)

- Get to Sewers
- Finish Jail Fight
- Exit BACK to Sewers and head to Forest again
- Wings x2 through Forest
- Get to Ebon Keep
- Get Knight Basher post-Tinker talk
- Dungeon/Sewers next
- Gomi's Tower

So... if this is correct, optimally we're going to want 4 wings, since using Wings in the underground passage saves time (it's a variable amount, but it's always a time-save, even with menu operations).

As for re-routing, this presents a problem (and a fairly large one at that).

(Not factoring in Early Mad Monk here because it simplifies things)
- 2 Wings for Ruins
- 2 Wings for Underground Passage
- 2 Wings for Verm Skip (Route 3 Version)
- 1 Wings for Carltron (No Defend + TAS Routes only) *Note: Even with this new route, No Defend will still be faster.

So what can we pick up for "free?"
- 2 Wings in Pyramids
- RNG drops (unreliable)

What we need to buy then?
- 6, 4 would work, but 6 would be optimal

That is a LOT of money that we do not have. The TAS at most can purchase 3 wings, but it can also pick up the 2 wings in pyramids with basically no problems. In terms of pure speed, however, I still need
2 more from somewhere. Probably the mad monks at the small area north of Horace's camp? I think that's the fastest location to get them because it loads quick and they're the only enemies in the area. I've already done testing (for alchemy leveling purposes) during the 14 minute timer, and full blimp skip is still much quicker than the transitions required to make use of this during the timer, so that option is definitely out.

So what about RTA? We could eat some time loss to enter the item shop again, but that's pretty annoying. You can buy 4 initially, which means the two in pyramids are definitely an option. That leaves us with an interesting option actually, we could grab the 1 Call Bead from volcano entrance (a minimal loss in time during Act 1) and use it on the Mad Monk on Eastern Beach + Whatever HB we have left (if any) + melee (another minimal time loss) to grab 75 jewels, this affords us the 1 extra wings we require. Now, that definitely throws off the amount of time saved by some amount, but it is still saving us more than 20s if the above numbers are correct and everything works out properly. Getting people testing this as quickly as possible and posting results/issues would be quite nice if anyone's up for it.

So Route 3 is:

(starting from Dark Forest entrance like in a normal attempt)

- Get to Sewers
- Finish Jail Fight
- Exit BACK to Sewers and head to Forest again
- Wings x2 through Forest
- Get to Ebon Keep
- Get Knight Basher post-Tinker talk
- Dungeon/Sewers next
- Gomi's Tower

So... if this is correct, optimally we're going to want 4 wings, since using Wings in the underground passage saves time (it's a variable amount, but it's always a time-save, even with menu operations).

As for re-routing, this presents a problem (and a fairly large one at that).

(Not factoring in Early Mad Monk here because it simplifies things)
- 2 Wings for Ruins
- 2 Wings for Underground Passage
- 2 Wings for Verm Skip (Route 3 Version)
- 1 Wings for Carltron (No Defend + TAS Routes only) *Note: Even with this new route, No Defend will still be faster.

So what can we pick up for "free?" 
- 2 Wings in Pyramids
- RNG drops (unreliable)

What we need to buy then?
- 6, 4 would work, but 6 would be optimal

That is a LOT of money that we do not have. The TAS at most can purchase 3 wings, but it can also pick up the 2 wings in pyramids with basically no problems. In terms of pure speed, however, I still need
2 more from somewhere. Probably the mad monks at the small area north of Horace's camp? I think that's the fastest location to get them because it loads quick and they're the only enemies in the area. I've already done testing (for alchemy leveling purposes) during the 14 minute timer, and full blimp skip is still much quicker than the transitions required to make use of this during the timer, so that option is definitely out.

So what about RTA? We could eat some time loss to enter the item shop again, but that's pretty annoying. You can buy 4 initially, which means the two in pyramids are definitely an option. That leaves us with an interesting option actually, we could grab the 1 Call Bead from volcano entrance (a minimal loss in time during Act 1) and use it on the Mad Monk on Eastern Beach + Whatever HB we have left (if any) + melee (another minimal time loss) to grab 75 jewels, this affords us the 1 extra wings we require. Now, that definitely throws off the amount of time saved by some amount, but it is still saving us more than 20s if the above numbers are correct and everything works out properly. Getting people testing this as quickly as possible and posting results/issues would be quite nice if anyone's up for it.

Edit history:

Skarsnik: 2014-02-23 12:29:56 pm

2014-02-23 12:19:36 pm

The time total for Route 3 is 200 sec not 160 Oo , the only diff will be less crush leveling because no verminator. Or I probably miss something x)

2014-02-23 12:35:50 pm

Speed > Safety

Quote from Skarsnik:

The time total for Route 3 is 200 sec not 160 Oo , the only diff will be less crush leveling because no verminator. Or I probably miss something x)

LOL!

Well in that case, I suppose it's basically the exact same as the current RTA route since we'd save time not dealing with Verm or his weapon obtaining animations/death animations/etc...

Now we really need to test some stuff, because that brings the time much closer than originally thought.

The real question for me though, is going to be what's faster for the TAS. I probably need to do both routes and see which is better. My guess is the one that kills Verm for the TAS, but we'll see. I should know by the end of the night (~6-7 hours from now). The reason for this is that to obtain the wings required for the other route, it will cost more time than simply killing verm would by comparison. The deal-breaker is going to be the death animation frame count.

Definitely not missing anything there. I kind of just assumed the math was right on the calculations, my mistake. Regardless, they're still very close now and we need to figure out which is better.

[quote="Skarsnik"]The time total for Route 3 is 200 sec not 160 Oo , the only diff will be less crush leveling because no verminator. Or I probably miss something x)[/quote]

LOL! :D

Well in that case, I suppose it's basically the exact same as the current RTA route since we'd save time not dealing with Verm or his weapon obtaining animations/death animations/etc...

Now we really need to test some stuff, because that brings the time much closer than originally thought.

The real question for me though, is going to be what's faster for the TAS. I probably need to do both routes and see which is better. My guess is the one that kills Verm for the TAS, but we'll see. I should know by the end of the night (~6-7 hours from now). The reason for this is that to obtain the wings required for the other route, it will cost more time than simply killing verm would by comparison. The deal-breaker is going to be the death animation frame count.

Definitely not missing anything there. I kind of just assumed the math was right on the calculations, my mistake. Regardless, they're still very close now and we need to figure out which is better.

2014-02-23 01:17:14 pm

Speed > Safety

So Crawek just got the crash for the old Verm Skip on emulator. Then proceeded to not get the crash under various testing situations, which just further presses the need for console-tested attempts at this. If anyone has any idea what specific thing might be causing the crash, please mention it. The more we test, the more we can rule out, which increases chances of the time being improved by around 1m20s with really nice performance.

Theories so far:

- Music-related crash because the game tries to load two different musical pieces
- Event-related crash due to whatever reason
- Somehow the weapon obtained animation is being stored, which results in a situation like the Ruins lock up

I have some ideas I can test on emulator, but emulator isn't exactly the issue.

Patashu

2014-02-23 02:51:31 pm

Does a SNES Powerpak crash if a real SNES cart would? If so, could be used to make testing quicker.

2014-02-23 03:03:55 pm

Speed > Safety

Dunno, I've been thinking about this crap pretty much all day. Come to a few conclusions:

1) It's going in the TAS for sure. Why? Because faster.

2) It's definitely a high risk, super high reward thing, and I think once people are nearing the lower brackets of time (ie; 1 minute or so of "error" that is NOT RNG) they should absolutely be implementing this and other aspects of the route into their attempts. The potential time save at that point is absolutely ridiculous and you'd be wasting your time not to do them. No Defend vs Defend I'm not too picky about at the moment because the other things save much more time (BBMSkip, Verm Skip, Early Mad Monk, etc...). Losing Defend is almost always the LAST thing you do to improve time.

MetaSigma

2014-02-23 05:08:50 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Here was the thing...we tested something like this a long ass time ago...and I mean a LONG time ago. I honestly spent 40 to 50 attempts just on that ONE spot and it had something to do with an audio cue. This is similar to Vigor locking crashing the game weirdly. Now I got MAYBE 15 to 20% of those attempts to actually LEAVE the prison and after that point the game worked fine. I guess I could load up a save and see what I can see. I THINK I have a save near there I can test stuff let me look...wait...o.o I think I do...

2014-02-23 05:28:21 pm

Ok I just try this on my SFC on a sd2snes with the SoE rom.
I kill the dragon in the forest, enter the sewer, leave, wingx2 and enter the second castle.

I save at trinker after taking the bronze axe, I get stuck at vermine, I have to reload the save, so atlas glitch lost at this point.

First attemp : entering the jail, killing stuff with crush, no music in the jail : crash after trying to exit
Second attemps : equiping the spear and casting barrier, no music in the jail : crash after trying to exit
3 attemps : cast a petal entering the jail I got the castle music in jail, cast petal exiting I take the wrong exit but no crash
4 attemps : cast a petal entering jail, cast petal exiting, no crash again
5 attemps : cast a petal entering, no petal cast exiting, no crash

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-23 05:31:50 pm

2014-02-23 05:28:26 pm

Speed > Safety

The point is figuring out what specifically causes the crash, that's literally all that matters at this point. Once that's resolved, then we can work towards seeing what the actual success rate is. Until then, the literal success rate is 50/50 as far as attempts are concerned.

There's also this:

Quote from Skarsnik:

Ok I just try this on my SFC on a sd2snes with the SoE rom.
I kill the dragon in the forest, enter the sewer, leave, wingx2 and enter the second castle.

I save at trinker after taking the bronze axe, I get stuck at vermine, I have to reload the save, so atlas glitch lost at this point.

First attemp : entering the jail, killing stuff with crush, no music in the jail : crash after trying to exit
Second attemps : equiping the spear and casting barrier, no music in the jail : crash after trying to exit
3 attemps : cast a petal entering the jail I got the castle music in jail, cast petal exiting I take the wrong exit but no crash
4 attemps : cast a petal entering jail, cast petal exiting, no crash again
5 attemps : cast a petal entering, no petal cast exiting, no crash

Nice testing, good finds. So maybe item animations bypass the issue. However, a key factor here is that you've loaded a save AFTER the cutscene. This could potentially have something to do with it and is worth checking out.

[6:18:33 PM] CrAwEk: skars try
[6:18:38 PM] CrAwEk: 4 try
[6:18:40 PM] CrAwEk: 1 succes
[6:18:42 PM] CrAwEk: with console
[6:18:54 PM] CrAwEk: he cast one petale before enter
[6:20:15 PM] CrAwEk: 2 succes
[6:20:20 PM] CrAwEk: omg
[6:20:24 PM] CrAwEk: work on console
[6:20:33 PM] CrAwEk: now i try with bsnes
[6:21:40 PM] CrAwEk: when you enter in the prison
[6:21:42 PM] CrAwEk: sound bug
[6:21:45 PM] CrAwEk: but if you cast petale
[6:22:13 PM] CrAwEk: sound work

So if that ends up being all we have to do to resolve the issue, then hey, easy WR. That being said, I'd also like to point out that perhaps there are other methods of achieving the same effect which is something we should look into for the future.

The point is figuring out what specifically causes the crash, that's literally all that matters at this point. Once that's resolved, then we can work towards seeing what the actual success rate is. Until then, the literal success rate is 50/50 as far as attempts are concerned.

There's also this:

[quote="Skarsnik"]Ok I just try this on my SFC on a sd2snes with the SoE rom.
I kill the dragon in the forest, enter the sewer, leave, wingx2 and enter the second castle.

I save at trinker after taking the bronze axe, I get stuck at vermine, I have to reload the save, so atlas glitch lost at this point.

First attemp : entering the jail, killing stuff with crush, no music in the jail : crash after trying to exit
Second attemps : equiping the spear and casting barrier, no music in the jail : crash after trying to exit
3 attemps : cast a petal entering the jail I got the castle music in jail, cast petal exiting I take the wrong exit but no crash
4 attemps : cast a petal entering jail, cast petal exiting, no crash again
5 attemps : cast a petal entering, no petal cast exiting, no crash[/quote]

Nice testing, good finds. So maybe item animations bypass the issue. However, a key factor here is that you've loaded a save AFTER the cutscene. This could potentially have something to do with it and is worth checking out.

[6:18:33 PM] CrAwEk: skars try
[6:18:38 PM] CrAwEk: 4 try
[6:18:40 PM] CrAwEk: 1 succes
[6:18:42 PM] CrAwEk: with console
[6:18:54 PM] CrAwEk: he cast one petale before enter
[6:20:15 PM] CrAwEk: 2 succes
[6:20:20 PM] CrAwEk: omg
[6:20:24 PM] CrAwEk: work on console
[6:20:33 PM] CrAwEk: now i try with bsnes
[6:21:40 PM] CrAwEk: when you enter in the prison
[6:21:42 PM] CrAwEk: sound bug
[6:21:45 PM] CrAwEk: but if you cast petale
[6:22:13 PM] CrAwEk: sound work

So if that ends up being all we have to do to resolve the issue, then hey, easy WR. That being said, I'd also like to point out that perhaps there are other methods of achieving the same effect which is something we should look into for the future.

2014-02-23 05:33:05 pm

Forget to mention I cast and enter with the dog.

MetaSigma

2014-02-23 07:48:07 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Welp that is thrown out the window. It just killed a run using the same method as was stated...so it's something else that's doing this. There is more to it than just cast "healing item A" and it'll fix it.